Second Edition Current Top 10 Third Basemen Poll

[tearforamariner]

This Post is deleted

[Yankee Legend]

This is the fourth installment of these position player polls. To vote, simple list the top 10 third basemen that are active in order from best (#1) to least (#10). The results will be tabulated and will be announced on Dec 10 @ 9 PM or 2 days after the last ballot was submitted. The points will be alloted based on the player's ranking on each list (1st place gets 10, 2nd gets 9, 3rd gets 8, etc.) Remember, YOU MUST LIST 10!!!!!

Although you may vote for whomever you see fit try to rate players in either performance in the 2006 mlb season or performance in the last 3-4 years. However, you may can use career performance as a factor. Also, be sure to look at both offensive and defensive performance.

Here are the results from the previous polls

Catchers http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=52858
1. Joe Mauer
2. Brian McCann
3. Jorge Posada
4. Ivan Rodriguez
5. Victor Martinez
6. Kenji Johjima
7. Michael Barrett
7. Paul Lo Duca
9. Ramon Hernandez
10. Jason Kendall
10. A.J. Pierzynski

First Basemen http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=53298
1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Ryan Howard
4. Justin Morneau
5. Carlos Delgado
6. Mark Teixeira
7. Paul Konerko
8. Nick Johnson
9. Jason Giambi
10. Derek Lee

Second Basemen http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=53805
1. Chase Utley
2. Robinson Cano
3. Dan Uggla
4. Ray Durham
5. Brian Roberts
6. Jeff Kent
7. Orlando Hudson
8. Tadihito Iguchi
9. Marcus Giles
10. Luis Castillo

[ChrisLDuncan]

1.) Alex Rodriguez
2.) Miguel Cabrera
3.) David Wright
4.) Aramis Ramirez
5.) Garrett Atkins
6.) Scott Rolen
7.) Ryan Zimmerman
8.) Joe Crede
9.) Freddy Sanchez
10.) Eric Chavez

[W_Marone]

Duncan you only have nine.....


1. A-Rod
2. Miguel Cabrera
3. David Wright
4. Aramis Ramirez
5. Scott Rolen
6. Joe Crede
7. Ryan Zimmerman
8. Garrett Atkins
9. Eric Chavez
10. Mike Lowell

[EvanAparra]

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Aramis Ramirez
4. David Wright
5. Scott Rolen
6. Garret Atkins
7. Ryan Zimmerman
8. Joe Crede
9. Eric Chavez
10. Mike Lowell

[Rapmaster]

1.) Alex Rodriguez
2.) David Wright
3.) Miguel Cabrera
4.) Chipper Jones
5.) Scott Rolen
6.) Aramis Ramirez
7.) Garrett Atkins
8.) Eric Chavez
9.) Ryan Zimmerman
10.) Mike Lowell

My most notable omission is Joe Crede. His OBP is just too low for me. I wouldn't be surprised if I put Morgan Ensberg, Andy Marte, Mark Teahen, Alex Gordon (if he plays 3rd), or Wilson Betemit in the next few installments.

[EvanAparra]

Out of curiosity, why Cabrera 3rd? He bests A-Rod and Wright in BA, OBP, and Slugging.

Also, in terms of OPS+ ---

Cabrera - 159
A-Rod - 140
Wright - 136

[Rapmaster]

Out of curiosity, why Cabrera 3rd?

Because he spent the majority of the last few seasons in the outfield while Wright and Rodriguez were manning third. I was looking at 3 or 4 year stretches, not just this year. What he did this year at third was just stellar and based on his former batting performances, he's due to repeat. He would've been second had he not played the outfield the last few years. I almost edged Chipper in there had it not been for his injuries. I couldn't give an injured guy (who did play a good bit though, and effectively) a spot over Cabrera.

I would love to see Cabrera play in a more balanced park every year though. Not a hitter's park, as then his merits would be trivialized by that (like how every Rockies hitter is only good because they play at Coors even though we all know that's not necessarily true) but not in a park like Pro Player where he can't shine in full glory.

[Rapmaster]

In response to your edit.

A-Rod is a premier player and although Cabrera may have had a better season, we all know what A-Rod is capable of. Cabrera may soon be better but again, small stretches opposed to single years is what I based it on and A-Rod has been stellar (especially 2005).

Wright has a lot of upside (to be fair, so does Cabrera) and again, the only reason he's ahead is due to the small strech thing. Cabrera wasn't technically a third baseman the last few years.

[W_Marone]

I had forgotten about Mark Teahen (sp?), but I'd have him off the top ten still, but maybe not in the third installment.

[ElHalo]

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. David Wright
3. Aramis Ramirez
4. Scott Rolen
5. Alex Rodriguez
6. Joe Crede
7. Eric Chavez
8. Garett Atkins
9. Ryan Zimmerman
10. Mike Lowell

[EvanAparra]

I wasnt aware this was not a '2006' thing -- Because Cabrera takes that easily, IMO. I just read the voting guidelines, and I'd like it if the thread starter would make it clear whether we should vote on a 3-4 span, career, or just 2006 so we can all be on the same page.

[Rapmaster]

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. David Wright
3. Aramis Ramirez
4. Scott Rolen
5. Alex Rodriguez
6. Joe Crede
7. Eric Chavez
8. Garett Atkins
9. Ryan Zimmerman
10. Scott Rolen

You've got Rolen at both 4 and 10

[ChrisLDuncan]

Duncan you only have nine.....


Thanks, I dunno here I'm torn between Inge and Freddy Sanchez...Sanchez is great at the dish...but Inge's arm is so good.

[Yankee Legend]

I wasnt aware this was not a '2006' thing -- Because Cabrera takes that easily, IMO. I just read the voting guidelines, and I'd like it if the thread starter would make it clear whether we should vote on a 3-4 span, career, or just 2006 so we can all be on the same page.

Look at the first post. It's based on how you prefer to rank them.

[Erik Bedard]

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. David Wright
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Aramis Ramirez
5. Scott Rolen
6. Garrett Atkins
7. Eric Chavez
8. Melvin Mora
9. Ryan Zimmerman
10. Freddy Sanchez

[Erik Bedard]

If you want to do it based on 3-4 year span, Melvin Mora should be on your list.

Mora's OPS+ for the last four years: 148, 149, 122, 91.
Wright's OPS+ for the last three years: 118, 138, 136.
Crede's OPS+ for the last four years: 94, 79, 106, 108.
Sanchez's OPS+ for the last two years: 92, 117.
Chavez's OPS+ for the last four years: 132, 132, 106, 106.

Mora has the weakest 2006, but if you like recent performance, then he beats out all these guys (except maybe Chavez).

[slugger33]

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Miguel Cabrera
3. Eric Chavez
4. David Wright
5. Troy Glaus
6. Joe Crede
7. Freddy Sanchez
8. Scott Rolen
9. Aramis Ramirez
10. Melvin Mora

[Rapmaster]

If you want to do it based on 3-4 year span, Melvin Mora should be on your list.

Mora's OPS+ for the last four years: 148, 149, 122, 91.
Wright's OPS+ for the last three years: 118, 138, 136.
Crede's OPS+ for the last four years: 94, 79, 106, 108.
Sanchez's OPS+ for the last two years: 92, 117.
Chavez's OPS+ for the last four years: 132, 132, 106, 106.

Mora has the weakest 2006, but if you like recent performance, then he beats out all these guys (except maybe Chavez).

Mora also has, by far, the weakest defense.

[tearforamariner]

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Aramis Ramirez
4. David Wright
5. Scott Rolen
6. Garret Atkins
7. Ryan Zimmerman
8. Joe Crede
9. Eric Chavez
10. Mike Lowell


If your criteria is just last season, how does Chavez make your list and Adrian Beltre not?

[Rapmaster]

If your criteria is just last season, how does Chavez make your list and Adrian Beltre not?

I would do the same. They both had terrible seasons, but Beltre's was worse and Chavez's was at least excusable (injury). One of them won a gold glove too, and his name wasn't Adrian.

[tearforamariner]

I would do the same. They both had terrible seasons, but Beltre's was worse and Chavez's was at least excusable (injury). One of them won a gold glove too, and his name wasn't Adrian.

To me, gold gloves aren't anything special. Chavez certainly did not deserve one last season. Neither did Beltre, and I would never say he did. But Eric Chavez won the award last year on name recognition. Nothing more. I don't see how Beltre had a worse season. His OPS is 10 points higher (OPS+ 2 points higher), he hit more home runs, doubles, and triples, had more RBI, scored more runs, had a higher BA and a a higher SLG, and grounded into fewer DPs. How did Chavez have a better season than Beltre?

[cardsfanatic]

Yet again, based on the 2006 baseball season only.

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Garrett Atkins
3. David Wright
4. Chipper Jones
5. Alex Rodriguez
6. Scott Rolen
7. Freddy Sanchez
8. Aramis Ramirez
9. Troy Glaus
10. Ryan Zimmerman

[AznInvasion]

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. David Wright
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Aramis Ramirez
5. Garrett Atkins
6. Joe Crede
7. Eric Chavez
8. Chipper Jones
9. Scott Rolen
10. Ryan Zimmerman

[Rapmaster]

To me, gold gloves aren't anything special. Chavez certainly did not deserve one last season. Neither did Beltre, and I would never say he did. But Eric Chavez won the award last year on name recognition. Nothing more. I don't see how Beltre had a worse season. His OPS is 10 points higher (OPS+ 2 points higher), he hit more home runs, doubles, and triples, had more RBI, scored more runs, had a higher BA and a a higher SLG, and grounded into fewer DPs. How did Chavez have a better season than Beltre?

Offensively, I would give the edge to Chavez. A difference in OPS by .010 is marginal. One or two extra bloop hits instead of popups will make a difference of .010 disappear. But if you look at the way their OPS broke down, Chavez had a clear advantage in OBP whereas Beltre had an advantage in slugging. I happen to value OBP more and Beltre's OBP was just too low. Chavez may not have deserved the gold glove last year but his defense is still better than Beltre's.

[Erik Bedard]

Mora also has, by far, the weakest defense.

Of those guys, yes. But he's gotten much better with the glove since he first started playing 3B, and rarely makes errors (or just mistakes). Of course, I'm not going to say he's up there with Chavez, Wright, and Crede, but he's not horrible. He deserves a spot if you go by last few years.

[EvanAparra]

To me, gold gloves aren't anything special. Chavez certainly did not deserve one last season. Neither did Beltre, and I would never say he did. But Eric Chavez won the award last year on name recognition. Nothing more. I don't see how Beltre had a worse season. His OPS is 10 points higher (OPS+ 2 points higher), he hit more home runs, doubles, and triples, had more RBI, scored more runs, had a higher BA and a a higher SLG, and grounded into fewer DPs. How did Chavez have a better season than Beltre?

Well, if you're going to completey ignore OBP, I don't know what to tell you.

[tearforamariner]

Well, if you're going to completey ignore OBP, I don't know what to tell you.

I won't ignore OBP. Split the season in two for a second. April and May, Beltre was absolutely dreadful. His OBP was under .300. June-September, his OBP is right around .340 or .350. Chavez was bad the entire season (except for April).

I give Beltre credit for turning it up and changing a dreadful season into an average one.

But let's look at the entire season. You talk about the differnce in OBP. The difference is 23 points in favor of Chavez. The difference is SLG is 30 points in favor of Beltre.

[ChrisLDuncan]

But let's look at the entire season. You talk about the differnce in OBP. The difference is 23 points in favor of Chavez. The difference is SLG is 30 points in favor of Beltre.

Plus Chavez was outstanding with the leather, that tips it for Chavez for me...I don't know if I even put Beltre in the top 15.

[EvanAparra]

I won't ignore OBP. Split the season in two for a second. April and May, Beltre was absolutely dreadful. His OBP was under .300. June-September, his OBP is right around .340 or .350. Chavez was bad the entire season (except for April).

I give Beltre credit for turning it up and changing a dreadful season into an average one.

But let's look at the entire season. You talk about the differnce in OBP. The difference is 23 points in favor of Chavez. The difference is SLG is 30 points in favor of Beltre.

Then we'll call it a toss up offensively -- I would still give the edge to Chavez because of his defense. Beltre isn't all that far behind, and it wasn't Chavez's best year -- But I have him comfortably behind Inge and Lowell in that department.

Im not saying Chavez was obviously better than Beltran -- But I value OBP and defense more than the next guy, so that swings it in Chavez's favor for me. Close call though.

[Yankee Legend]

1. Alex Rodriguez-Although had an off year in 2006, he has still proven to be the most valuable player of our time.
2. David Wright-Young, talented, great defense. Everything you want in a 3rd baseman.
3. Miguel Cabrera-Same as wright but is adjusting to new position.
4. Aramis Ramirez-Although I don't agree with his slalry, he is still one of the top hitters around.
5. Chipper Jones-Little bit of a career factor here but has been consistent and effective.
6. Troy Glaus-Another good combination of power and defense.
7. Scott Rolen-Has suffered injuries lately but still one of the best.
8. Freddy Sanchez-Is underrated because he plays for the Pirates.
9. Joe Crede-Very good defensively and decent average.
10. Ryan Zimmerman-Still want to wait to see how he progresses.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

1. Ryan Zimmerman, I know you will all criticize me but I saw him and he was more impressive than Cabrera+A-Rod put together.
2. A-Rod
3. Miguel Cabrera
4. David Wright
5. Scott Rolen
6. Joe Crede
7. Freddy Sanchez
8. Troy Glaus
9. Chipper Jones
10. Eric Chavez

[EvanAparra]

1. Ryan Zimmerman, I know you will all criticize me but I saw him and he was more impressive than Cabrera+A-Rod put together.

Very interesting choice...

[tearforamariner]

Then we'll call it a toss up offensively -- I would still give the edge to Chavez because of his defense. Beltre isn't all that far behind, and it wasn't Chavez's best year -- But I have him comfortably behind Inge and Lowell in that department.

Im not saying Chavez was obviously better than Beltran -- But I value OBP and defense more than the next guy, so that swings it in Chavez's favor for me. Close call though.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that Beltre was one of the top 10 third basemen in the game last year, but I will stick by my statement that he is better than Chavez. Look at Winshares. Beltre was 12th among 3rd Basemen in Offensive WinShares. Where's Chavez? 21st. Beltre was 11th in Total Winshares. Where's Chavez? 15th.

[EvanAparra]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that Beltre was one of the top 10 third basemen in the game last year, but I will stick by my statement that he is better than Chavez. Look at Winshares. Beltre was 12th among 3rd Basemen in Offensive WinShares. Where's Chavez? 21st. Beltre was 11th in Total Winshares. Where's Chavez? 15th.

Seems to be a huge gap in defense between them there. I'll look into it a little more -- But I dont see where the huge disparity is between them in offense as WS would seem to suggest.

[tearforamariner]

Seems to be a huge gap in defense between them there. I'll look into it a little more -- But I dont see where the huge disparity is between them in offense as WS would seem to suggest.

Chavez is third in defensive win shares, Beltre is seventh.

[EvanAparra]

Chavez is third in defensive win shares, Beltre is seventh.
Are Inge and Lowell above him? Or is it Inge and Crede?

[tearforamariner]

Are Inge and Lowell above him? Or is it Inge and Crede?

This is the top 7 in order: Crede, Lowell, Chavez, Inge, Feliz, Rolen, Beltre.

[EvanAparra]

This is the top 7 in order: Crede, Lowell, Chavez, Inge, Feliz, Rolen, Beltre.

Wow, didn't expect Feliz to be in there... Thanks for the info.

[tearforamariner]

Wow, didn't expect Feliz to be in there... Thanks for the info.

No Problem. Feliz really is the surprise, isn't he?

[EvanAparra]

No Problem. Feliz really is the surprise, isn't he?
When I saw him at Shea, he looked terrible. Must have only been in that doublheader -- he has a pretty impressive RF as well.

[tearforamariner]

Plus Chavez was outstanding with the leather, that tips it for Chavez for me...I don't know if I even put Beltre in the top 15.

Can you name 15 third basemen that were better than Beltre last season?

[Evangelion]

1. Ryan Zimmerman, I know you will all criticize me but I saw him and he was more impressive than Cabrera+A-Rod put together.
I would only criticize you for selecting Zimmerman at the present. I won't put it beyond him to become one of the best 3B in the future. Zimmerman, Cabrera, Wright and Ramirez will be among the best and currently are. A-Rod should be at SS, but he's still the best in my book, even with a "dreadful" season by his standards. I quoted dreadful, because it wasn't that bad when compared to the rest of the 3B.

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Miguel Cabrera
3. David Wright
4. Aramis Ramirez
5. Scott Rolen
6. Chipper Jones
7. Freddy Sanchez
8. Ryan Zimmerman
9. Joe Crede
10. Eric Chavez

3B position deep with young talent. As well as established players.

[PhilWings24]

1. A-Rod, although i still consider him a shortstop lol. i know he isn't, he just still feels like it to me.
2. Miguel Cabrera, strangely he DOES feel like a 3b to me
3. david wright
4. armis ramirez
5. ryan zimmerman
6. scott rolen
7. eric chavez
8. joe crede
9. garret atkins
10. kevin kouzmanoff or mike lowell, depdning on whether kouz qualifies

[Yankee Legend]

10. kevin kouzmanoff or mike lowell, depdning on whether kouz qualifies

I don't think he does. He only played 15 games.

[tearforamariner]

I don't think he does. He only played 15 games.

I have him playing all but two of his games at DH.

[Future:Greatest2BofAll-Time]

1.Alex Rodriguez- Still the Best at his Position 2 MVPs 10 Time All-Star. Nuff said.
2.Miguel Cabrera-Great young Career so far.
3.Aramis Ramirez-Three straight good solid years better Glove than Wright
4.David Wright- Back to Back years great year. Bad Glove though.
5.Chipper Jones-Better bat and about the same Glove as Rolen. He gets the nod ahead of Rolen
6.Scott Rolen-Becoming injury prone Hitting is regressing but still has a good Glove and has had a good Hitting Career also.
7.Garrett Atkins-Like Feddy Sanchez is underrated because he plays in Colorado but he had 28 HRs 120 RBI .329 Average. Great Season also last year wasnt bad.
8.Freddy Sanchez- Atkins and Feddy were head to head but RBI and HRs blew away Sanchez. Still great year.
9.Troy Glaus-Little bit more pop than Crede. There Averages are pretty much the same with the exception of last year.
10.Joe Crede- Ok hitter with good pop and good Glove. Gets the nod over Zimmerman by a hair.

[Yankee Legend]

nevermind.........

[Rapmaster]

1.Alex Rodriguez- Still the Best at his Position 2 MVPs 10 Time All-Star. Nuff said.
2.Miguel Cabrera-Great young Career so far.
3.Aramis Ramirez-Three straight good solid years better Glove than Wright
4.David Wright- Back to Back years great year. Bad Glove though.
5.Chipper Jones-Better bat and about the same Glove as Rolen. He gets the nod ahead of Rolen
6.Scott Rolen-Becoming injury prone Hitting is regressing but still has a good Glove and has had a good Hitting Career also.
7.Garrett Atkins-Like Feddy Sanchez is underrated because he plays in Colorado but he had 28 HRs 120 RBI .329 Average. Great Season also last year wasnt bad.
8.Freddy Sanchez- Atkins and Feddy were head to head but RBI and HRs blew away Sanchez. Still great year.
9.Troy Glaus-Little bit more pop than Crede. There Averages are pretty much the same with the exception of last year.
10.Joe Crede- Ok hitter with good pop and good Glove. Gets the nod over Zimmerman by a hair.

Chipper has the same glove as Rolen? I dunno about that one, they did move him to left field to get him out of the hot corner.

But Chipper's bat (when healthy) is much better, and I would have it (and did have it) the same way.

[EvanAparra]

Chipper has the same glove as Rolen? I dunno about that one, they did move him to left field to get him out of the hot corner.

But Chipper's bat (when healthy) is much better, and I would have it (and did have it) the same way.

There's no way Chipper is the the same league as Rolen defensively. He's actually pretty bad at 3B whereas Rolen is one of the best 3Bman in the last 40 years.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Can you name 15 third basemen that were better than Beltre last season?

In no particular order:

Alex Rodriguez
David Wright
Miguel Cabrera
Scott Rolen
Eric Chavez
Brandon Inge
Joe Crede
Mike Lowell
Troy Glaus
Chipper Jones
Ryan Zimmerman
Freddy Sanchez
Melvin Mora
Garret Atkins
Nick Punto
Moran Ensberg by OPS+
Hank Blalock and Pedro Feliz had more RBIs and I would say are better players

All of them I would say are better than Beltre.

[Rapmaster]

In no particular order:

Alex Rodriguez
David Wright
Miguel Cabrera
Scott Rolen
Eric Chavez
Brandon Inge
Joe Crede
Mike Lowell
Troy Glaus
Chipper Jones
Ryan Zimmerman
Freddy Sanchez
Melvin Mora
Garret Atkins
Nick Punto
Moran Ensberg by OPS+
Hank Blalock and Pedro Feliz had more RBIs and I would say are better players

All of them I would say are better than Beltre.

Wow, I completely forgot about Blalock. He could break the list next year if he goes back to his earlier production...

[Edgartohof]

I would do the same. They both had terrible seasons, but Beltre's was worse and Chavez's was at least excusable (injury). One of them won a gold glove too, and his name wasn't Adrian.

Beltre may have a few more errors (yes, a lot more), but overall, he is very good defensively, not too far behind Chavez. And I would say that Beltre has a better arm, and if he can get rid of a few of those errors, he would be better defensively.

[Edgartohof]

1. Ryan Zimmerman, I know you will all criticize me but I saw him and he was more impressive than Cabrera+A-Rod put together.


It's just too early to put him there in my opinion.

Just last season, A-rod had him on: BA, OBP, Slg, (OPS), OPS+ (by 29 points!!!), and was better on the bases. Zimmerman deserves to be on the list, due to him having a very good season last year, and his young age (21), and his great potential, which he most likely will live up to. But #1 is more than a stretch.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but I tend to think of this as who has been better recently, and who will be better in the very near future (specifically next season). And I just don't see Zimmerman making up that nearly 30 point difference in OPS+ (and that's not even considering that last year was a "down" year for A-rod).

[ChrisLDuncan]

Beltre may have a few more errors (yes, a lot more), but overall, he is very good defensively, not too far behind Chavez. And I would say that Beltre has a better arm, and if he can get rid of a few of those errors, he would be better defensively.

Hmm, I dunno about that...I wouldn't say that he's "not too far behind Chavez" Crede, Inge, Lowell THEY are not too far behind Chavez..Betlre isn't in that catagory.

[Evangelion]

Blalock's numbers are vastly helped by playing in Texas.

Though last season wasn't that bad compared to his 2005 season were his road numbers were flat out terrible.

[Rapmaster]

There's no way Chipper is the the same league as Rolen defensively. He's actually pretty bad at 3B whereas Rolen is one of the best 3Bman in the last 40 years.

? Isn't that what I was getting at? Meh, maybe a misquote.

On Zimmerman though, I would put him #1 or 2 on my list in terms of potential at third base. Just not the #1 slot in terms of past seasons.

Pretty impressive what he did though, considering how little he played in the minors

[EvanAparra]

? Isn't that what I was getting at? Meh, maybe a misquote.

On Zimmerman though, I would put him #1 or 2 on my list in terms of potential at third base. Just not the #1 slot in terms of past seasons.

Pretty impressive what he did though, considering how little he played in the minors

Yes, I was agreeing with you -- sorry for the confusion. There's no real reason to put Zimmerman that high, unless you are a Nats fan. And saying he was better than A-Rod and Cabrera isn't just homer opinion, it's flat out wrong.

[Rapmaster]

Yes, I was agreeing with you -- sorry for the confusion. There's no real reason to put Zimmerman that high, unless you are a Nats fan. And saying he was better than A-Rod and Cabrera isn't just homer opinion, it's flat out wrong.

Hmm, Cabrera might make my list on third base potential above Zimmerman. Because once you think about it, Cabrera is young and still has some quirks to work out with age despite the great numbers.

[EvanAparra]

Hmm, Cabrera might make my list on third base potential above Zimmerman. Because once you think about it, Cabrera is young and still has some quirks to work out with age despite the great numbers.

Yeah, but Zim, if he realizes full potential, will be lucky to ever have a season like Cabrera's 2006. If Cabrera played in NY, he'd probably have won the MVP this year.

[Rapmaster]

Yeah, but Zim, if he realizes full potential, will be lucky to ever have a season like Cabrera's 2006. If Cabrera played in NY, he'd probably have won the MVP this year.

What's your thoughts on Andy Marte, Andy LaRoche, and Alex Gordon?

I'm not sure if Marte is ever gonna hit his potential, he looked real lost when Atlanta called him up and likewise when Cleveland did.

[EvanAparra]

What's your thoughts on Andy Marte, Andy LaRoche, and Alex Gordon?

I'm not sure if Marte is ever gonna hit his potential, he looked real lost when Atlanta called him up and likewise when Cleveland did.

Yeah -- Marte hasn't looked very good, even in AAA, but he looks to have some pretty good power potential.

I think Gordon, if he were to be called up next season, would be KC's best player. He looks GREAT from every scouting report i've read on him. It would be in KC's best interest to call him up soon and have Teahen change positions.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Dude's a beast I knew one of their Minor Leagues strength coach, he said the Gordon's just a monster

[ElHalo]

You've got Rolen at both 4 and 10

You were right, my mistake. Changed that.

[Rapmaster]

Yeah -- Marte hasn't looked very good, even in AAA, but he looks to have some pretty good power potential.

I think Gordon, if he were to be called up next season, would be KC's best player. He looks GREAT from every scouting report i've read on him. It would be in KC's best interest to call him up soon and have Teahen change positions.

From what I hear, Teahen's staying put at third (as he has a ton of upside too) and Gordon's going to play first with Sweeney a full-time DH. A Gordon/Teahen/DeJesus/Greinke combo (assuming they live up to the hype) may be the core the Royals need to become competitive. I really like Drayton Moore and think he can do wonders for that franchise.

[tearforamariner]

In no particular order:

Alex Rodriguez
David Wright
Miguel Cabrera
Scott Rolen
Eric Chavez
Brandon Inge
Joe Crede
Mike Lowell
Troy Glaus
Chipper Jones
Ryan Zimmerman
Freddy Sanchez
Melvin Mora
Garret Atkins
Nick Punto
Moran Ensberg by OPS+
Hank Blalock and Pedro Feliz had more RBIs and I would say are better players

All of them I would say are better than Beltre.

As my comments are referring to last season, let's assess it based on that.

Ensberg had more walks than hits last year. I know walking is important, but not that important. Ensberg had 41 Extra-Base Hits last season. Beltre had 68. I'd rather have Beltre's '06 season than Enberg's '06 season at third base for my team.

Nick Punto? Do I really need to make any argument here? He had a 90 OPS+, 1 HR, 45 RBI, 77 R, 21 2B, and 7 3B. He's not as good as Beltre

Mora last year had a 91 OPS+. He had fewer extra-base hits than Beltre, had fewer RBI, and just overall wasn't as good offensively as Beltre. Add the fact that Mora is not a good fielder and Beltre is pretty good, I'd take Beltre.

Pedro Feliz isn't a bad fielder, but offensively is not nearly as good as Beltre. People have been talking about Beltre's OBP, Pedro's was .281!!! He's got power, but not much more than that. His OPS+ was 79, had an SLG 30 points lower than Beltre's (so he doesn't even have as much power as Beltre), and that's pretty much all I have to say about Feliz.

Beltre and Blalock had the same number of RBI last year (89) and all other numbers indicate Beltre was better.

Brandon Inge has a worse OBP than Beltre does as well. His SLG is a little lower, his OPS+ is lower, he had fewer EBH, fewer R, and fewer RBI. He isn't as good of a baserunner as Beltre is either. Inge is a better fielder, but not significantly better, so I still give the edge to Beltre.

I'll stop here, I think I've made my case. I still feel Beltre was better than Chavez last season, and if not, they're equal. If you want to look at Winshares, we can do that too, Beltre is easily Top 15 there (11th). So, last season, Beltre was a Top 15 third baseman. He might have been Top 10, that's arguable. I think Beltre's bad start last season really made people think bad about him. Look at his numbers. He had a better season than you are giving him credit for.

[538280]

1. Miguel Cabrera-had the most underrated great season in baseball this year. Argument could be made he deserved the MVP
2. David Wright
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Scott Rolen
5. Chipper Jones
6. Ryan Zimmerman
7. Garret Atkins
8. Freddy Sanchez-All BA. But that it still enough to make him pretty good. Expect a downfall next season-such high BA jumps are usually mostly luck.
9. Aramis Ramirez
10. Adrian Beltre

[tearforamariner]

1. Miguel Cabrera-had the most underrated great season in baseball this year. Argument could be made he deserved the MVP
2. David Wright
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Scott Rolen
5. Chipper Jones
6. Ryan Zimmerman
7. Garret Atkins
8. Freddy Sanchez-All BA. But that it still enough to make him pretty good. Expect a downfall next season-such high BA jumps are usually mostly luck.
9. Aramis Ramirez
10. Adrian Beltre


Finally, a little bit of love for Adrian. Chris, can you explain why you chose Adrian at number 10?

[538280]

Hmm, Cabrera might make my list on third base potential above Zimmerman. Because once you think about it, Cabrera is young and still has some quirks to work out with age despite the great numbers.

I don't get your argument on potential. Zimmerman is better defensively than Cabrera, but I think there is little to suggest Zimmerman will ever develop into anything close to the hitter Cabrera is. Cabrera has had two straight seasons with a OPS+ over 150. There is no rationale for believing Zimmerman will even ever get up to the 140 level.

I am a Nats fan, and I really like Zimmerman and hope he does get to that level. But I seriously doubt he will ever be the player Cabrera is now.

[538280]

Finally, a little bit of love for Adrian. Chris, can you explain why you chose Adrian at number 10?

I can't say I put a real lot of though into it, but....

Well, I was looking a lot at Win Shares when making my list, and sometimes making a few changes to that. Beltre had 19 Win Shares this year which was 11th among 3Bmen. He was behind Joe Crede (who had 20), but subjectively I had a hard time with Crede over Beltre. Crede had the same OPS+ (108), but did that in about 100 less PAs. Seeing as there weren't too many other differences, I tend to think of them about the same in defense and baserunning so I went with Beltre. But I'm not real committed to that.

[Rapmaster]

I think Beltre's bad start last season really made people think bad about him. Look at his numbers. He had a better season than you are giving him credit for.

I think you're doin the same to the other third basemen you mentioned.

Ensberg had a terrible year (could be the injury he sustained in his wrist at the end of last year) and despite not being able to swing the bat well, he maintained his discipline and managed to contribute, albeit minimally.

Nick Punto....never mind

Melvin Mora also had a bad 2006, he's been one of the most productive third basemen the two or three years prior.

Pedro Feliz....never mind again

Blalock went into a funk this year and never seemed to recover, again, over a three year span, he's been better (though Beltre did have a monster 2004 as we all know)

Brandon Inge's defense is far superior to Beltre's. Beltre is by no means a hack with the glove, but he won't register more than a tick above average. Inge is phenomenal, to say that he's only slightly better than Beltre is an understatement.

Beltre's had a bad start to his career in Seattle. Aside from his great 2004, he's been a mediocre player at best. To say that he had a "bad start" is also an understatement. Maybe that's the player he is and he simply had a great 2004.

[Rapmaster]

I can't say I put a real lot of though into it, but....

Well, I was looking a lot at Win Shares when making my list, and sometimes making a few changes to that. Beltre had 19 Win Shares this year which was 11th among 3Bmen. He was behind Joe Crede (who had 20), but subjectively I had a hard time with Crede over Beltre. Crede had the same OPS+ (108), but did that in about 100 less PAs. Seeing as there weren't too many other differences, I tend to think of them about the same in defense and baserunning so I went with Beltre. But I'm not real committed to that.

That's almost illogical. He had the same OPS+ in 100 less PAs. OPS+ is a rate stat and although I understand where you're coming from (smaller sample, the data may be skewed), the opposite applies for win shares. He garnered 20 win shares in 100 less plate appearances, meaning, he contributed a lot more in less time.

[Rapmaster]

I don't get your argument on potential. Zimmerman is better defensively than Cabrera, but I think there is little to suggest Zimmerman will ever develop into anything close to the hitter Cabrera is. Cabrera has had two straight seasons with a OPS+ over 150. There is no rationale for believing Zimmerman will even ever get up to the 140 level.

I am a Nats fan, and I really like Zimmerman and hope he does get to that level. But I seriously doubt he will ever be the player Cabrera is now.

Zimmerman is a toolsy player and has played less than 70 games in the minor. He's adjusted quickly and in 1.5 years, has already become an above-average, well-rounded player. He hasn't had the typical rookie cycle of ups and downs (look at Jeff Francoueour, great start, pitchers adjusted and he's struggling). However, he's prone to rookie mistakes and once he hammers them out, he should improve his discipline and his power numbers. Cabrera's great, but like I said earlier, I simply forgot about him and Cabrera may indeed have a higher upside (scary to think).

A lot of minor leaguers play horribly when rushed to the majors and eventually work their way to respectability. Zimmerman was rushed and is more than respectable and has learned quickly. There's no reason to believe that he is a finished product as of now.

[tearforamariner]

I think you're doin the same to the other third basemen you mentioned.

Ensberg had a terrible year (could be the injury he sustained in his wrist at the end of last year) and despite not being able to swing the bat well, he maintained his discipline and managed to contribute, albeit minimally.

Nick Punto....never mind

Melvin Mora also had a bad 2006, he's been one of the most productive third basemen the two or three years prior.

Pedro Feliz....never mind again

Blalock went into a funk this year and never seemed to recover, again, over a three year span, he's been better (though Beltre did have a monster 2004 as we all know)

Brandon Inge's defense is far superior to Beltre's. Beltre is by no means a hack with the glove, but he won't register more than a tick above average. Inge is phenomenal, to say that he's only slightly better than Beltre is an understatement.

Beltre's had a bad start to his career in Seattle. Aside from his great 2004, he's been a mediocre player at best. To say that he had a "bad start" is also an understatement. Maybe that's the player he is and he simply had a great 2004.

See, I brought up Beltre because EvanAppara and several others were referring only to last season. Your assessmenta of Mora And Blalock are invalid, as you talk about the last 2-3 years. I know what those two players have done over the last 2-3 years. That's fine. But in the most recent season, Beltre had a better year than Mora and Blalock.

Ensberg was injured, and I get that. Ensberg still didn't have as good of a season as Beltre. Look at the numbers. Is it really that close? Yes, Ensberg has a higher OBP. That is because he drew more walks than hits. In the other categories, Beltre was in front of Ensberg.

Inge... well, I'll give you Inge. I didn't really believe that one much myself when I was typing it, but I thought I'd give it a try. :laugh

[Rapmaster]

See, I brought up Beltre because EvanAppara and several others were referring only to last season. Your assessmenta of Mora And Blalock are invalid, as you talk about the last 2-3 years. I know what those two players have done over the last 2-3 years. That's fine. But in the most recent season, Beltre had a better year than Mora and Blalock.

Ensberg was injured, and I get that. Ensberg still didn't have as good of a season as Beltre. Look at the numbers. Is it really that close? Yes, Ensberg has a higher OBP. That is because he drew more walks than hits. In the other categories, Beltre was in front of Ensberg.

Inge... well, I'll give you Inge. I didn't really believe that one much myself when I was typing it, but I thought I'd give it a try. :laugh

Bah, thread should specify 2006 or recent seasons. It's making arguing hard.

But on Ensberg, he shouldn't be penalized for walking. Walking is a passive, but extremely useful part of an offense. Two walks and a homerun is better than two groundouts and a homerun. Look at Ensberg's RC/27 for this season, it was 6.18. Beltre's was 5.20. Coincidence? No. Beltre did make more contact this year and Ensberg, but most of them were outs. Ensberg avoided outs (the whole OBP argument now) and helped his offense flow better. Ensberg was only 2 win shares behind Beltre even though he had 186 less plate appearances.

[ChrisLDuncan]

See, I brought up Beltre because EvanAppara and several others were referring only to last season. Your assessmenta of Mora And Blalock are invalid, as you talk about the last 2-3 years. I know what those two players have done over the last 2-3 years. That's fine. But in the most recent season, Beltre had a better year than Mora and Blalock.

Ensberg was injured, and I get that. Ensberg still didn't have as good of a season as Beltre. Look at the numbers. Is it really that close? Yes, Ensberg has a higher OBP. That is because he drew more walks than hits. In the other categories, Beltre was in front of Ensberg.

Inge... well, I'll give you Inge. I didn't really believe that one much myself when I was typing it, but I thought I'd give it a try. :laugh

Well Beltre only had that one awesome season and other than that what else has he done? I'm a little suspicious of him roiding in 2004

[Rapmaster]

Well Beltre only had that one awesome season and other than that what else has he done? I'm a little suspicious of him roiding in 2004

lolz, that's what i was trying to say. it's naive to think that 2004 was what he's capable of when there's 5 or 6 seasons saying otherwise.

Anyway, roiding? The thought crossed my mind but isn't a concern. There's suspicions everywhere and at least he's quiet about it. Certainly possible though, he was a beast back then.

[Neilios]

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Aramis Ramirez
3. David Wright
4. Garrett Atkins
5. Alex Rodriguez
6. Troy Glaus
7. Joe Crede
8. Chipper Jones
9. Ryan Zimmerman
10. Freddy Sanchez

HM: Blalock, Inge, Chavez, Rolen, Mora, Teahen

[538280]

That's almost illogical. He had the same OPS+ in 100 less PAs. OPS+ is a rate stat and although I understand where you're coming from (smaller sample, the data may be skewed), the opposite applies for win shares. He garnered 20 win shares in 100 less plate appearances, meaning, he contributed a lot more in less time.

That's not where I'm coming from. I'm coming from that you do more for your team with 100 more PAs. If you hit just as well as another guy, but come to the plate 100 times more often, then you are contributing more runs to your team.

[Rapmaster]

That's not where I'm coming from. I'm coming from that you do more for your team with 100 more PAs. If you hit just as well as another guy, but come to the plate 100 times more often, then you are contributing more runs to your team.

Okay, now I see where you're coming from, but I still argue it :D

Beltre did have those 100 more plate appearances, but still managed to contribute only 2 more win shares (roughly 2/3rds of a win) than Ensberg despite the extra PT. I guess you can say that he did, in fact, garner those extra win shares. But I'll standby that he was basically as productive (as 2 win shares is marginal, an extra homerun or walk here and there could've swung it either way) in more playing time.

[DoubleX]

Can you name 15 third basemen that were better than Beltre last season?

3B is a loaded position currently in the Majors. Not saying that these players are definitely better than Beltre, but I think a good argument could be made for most of them:

- Alex Rodriguez
- Troy Glaus
- Mike Lowell: About even at the plate last year, with perhaps a slight edge to Beltre, but Lowell's defense could tip the scale for him.
- Joe Crede
- Brandon Inge: This is probably the biggest stretch here, but it's close.
- Mark Teahen: Well under the radar playing in KC, but he had a nice year, although missed significant time.
- Hank Blalock: Down year for him. Very similar player to Beltre.
- Eric Chavez: The BA isn't where you'd like it, but neither is Beltre's. Chavez's defense and more consistent history give him the edge here.
- David Wright
- Miguel Cabrera
- Chipper Jones
- Ryan Zimmerman: I wouldn't put him first like someone else did, but this kid is very impressive so far.
- Scott Rolen
- Morgan Ensberg: Down year, but stil had a nice 118 OPS+ (compared to 108 for Beltre)
- Aramis Ramirez
- Freddy Sanchez: Winning the NL batting title doesn't hurt his case.
- Edwin Encarnacion: I really can't put him ahead of Beltre yet, but considering that he's just 23 and coming off a nice year, I'd say it's just a matter of time.
- Garrett Atkins: Like Teahen, he goes under the radar in Colorado, but he had a terrific year.
- Chad Tracy: He regressed a little this year, but the potential is there

So that's 19 I named with at least a decent argument for being better than Beltre. I'll remove some of the closer players, namely, Inge, Blalock, Ensberg, Encarnacion, and Tracy, and that leaves 14 players, making Beltre number 15.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I'd much rather have Inge than Beltre, that arm at third are you kidding me? He also hit 27 HRs at Commerica.

[Rapmaster]

3B is a loaded position currently in the Majors. Not saying that these players are definitely better than Beltre, but I think a good argument could be made for most of them:

- Alex Rodriguez
- Troy Glaus
- Mike Lowell: About even at the plate last year, with perhaps a slight edge to Beltre, but Lowell's defense could tip the scale for him.
- Joe Crede
- Brandon Inge: This is probably the biggest stretch here, but it's close.
- Mark Teahen: Well under the radar playing in KC, but he had a nice year, although missed significant time.
- Hank Blalock: Down year for him. Very similar player to Beltre.
- Eric Chavez: The BA isn't where you'd like it, but neither is Beltre's. Chavez's defense and more consistent history give him the edge here.
- David Wright
- Miguel Cabrera
- Chipper Jones
- Ryan Zimmerman: I wouldn't put him first like someone else did, but this kid is very impressive so far.
- Scott Rolen
- Morgan Ensberg: Down year, but stil had a nice 118 OPS+ (compared to 108 for Beltre)
- Aramis Ramirez
- Freddy Sanchez: Winning the NL batting title doesn't hurt his case.
- Edwin Encarnacion: I really can't put him ahead of Beltre yet, but considering that he's just 23 and coming off a nice year, I'd say it's just a matter of time.
- Garrett Atkins: Like Teahen, he goes under the radar in Colorado, but he had a terrific year.
- Chad Tracy: He regressed a little this year, but the potential is there

So that's 19 I named with at least a decent argument for being better than Beltre. I'll remove some of the closer players, namely, Inge, Blalock, Ensberg, Encarnacion, and Tracy, and that leaves 14 players, making Beltre number 15.

I forgot about Edwin Encarnacion, good call. Is Chad Tracy a full time third baseman now? I know he played a lot of games this year (almost all IIRC), but the past few seasons he's floated between the corner outfield, first, and third.

[DoubleX]

I forgot about Edwin Encarnacion, good call. Is Chad Tracy a full time third baseman now? I know he played a lot of games this year (almost all IIRC), but the past few seasons he's floated between the corner outfield, first, and third.

He had floated around but he played 147 games at 3B this year.

It really is amazing just how much talent there is at 3B now - I didn't realize it until I forced myself to think of 15 better 3Bmen than Beltre. I'd also say that with the exception of the top few, they're all bunched pretty closely together.

[538280]

Okay, now I see where you're coming from, but I still argue it :D

Beltre did have those 100 more plate appearances, but still managed to contribute only 2 more win shares (roughly 2/3rds of a win) than Ensberg despite the extra PT. I guess you can say that he did, in fact, garner those extra win shares. But I'll standby that he was basically as productive (as 2 win shares is marginal, an extra homerun or walk here and there could've swung it either way) in more playing time.

Value is value. What a player contributes to his team winning the game is based on how often he is actually playing. Ensberg couldn't have contributed anything to his team while he wasn't playing. Even though Ensberg probably was better while he was on the field, Beltre was on the field enough more times to be the more valuable player in 2006 IMO. But, as you say, to be fair the distinction between them is small enough that you could easily disagree with WS and go the other way.

[Rapmaster]

Value is value. What a player contributes to his team winning the game is based on how often he is actually playing. Ensberg couldn't have contributed anything to his team while he wasn't playing. Even though Ensberg probably was better while he was on the field, Beltre was on the field enough more times to be the more valuable player in 2006 IMO. But, as you say, to be fair the distinction between them is small enough that you could easily disagree with WS and go the other way.

It's settled then, till next time.

All this talk about playing time and contributions makes me wonder what J.D. Drew could've been compiling by this point amidst all these contract talks...

[ElHalo]

Value is value. What a player contributes to his team winning the game is based on how often he is actually playing.

This isn't always true. If you're David Ortiz, you're more valuable not playing half the game than if you were (the same could probably be said of Manny).

[Yankee Legend]

Last call. I'm closing voting tonight.

[Yankee Legend]

Voting closed. Results will be tabulated in a little while.

[Yankee Legend]

Here are the Results:

1. Miguel Cabrera-148 (7)
2. Alex Rodriguez-140 (8)
3. David Wright-131
4. Aramis Ramirez-95
5. Scott Rolen-79
6. Garrett Atkins-58
7. Ryan Zimmerman-47 (1)
8. Joe Crede-44
9. Chipper Jones-34
10. Eric Chavez-33
11. Freddy Sanchez-25
12. Troy Glaus-23
13. Mike Lowell-5
14. Melvin Mora-4
15. Adrian Beltre-1

Thank you for participating and remember to cast your ballot for the Second Edition Current Top 10 Shortstops Poll

[RuthMayBond]

Here are the Results:

1. Miguel Cabrera-148 (7)
2. Alex Rodriguez-140 (8)
3. David Wright-131
4. Aramis Ramirez-95
5. Scott Rolen-79
6. Garrett Atkins-58
7. Ryan Zimmerman-47 (1)
8. Joe Crede-44
9. Chipper Jones-34
10. Eric Chavez-33
11. Freddy Sanchez-25
12. Troy Glaus-23
13. Mike Lowell-5
14. Melvin Mora-4
15. Adrian Beltre-1

Thank you for participating and remember to cast your ballot for the Second Edition Current Top 10 Shortstops PollCrede over Chipper? :hp

[ChrisLDuncan]

Here are the Results:

1. Miguel Cabrera-148 (7)
2. Alex Rodriguez-140 (8)
3. David Wright-131
4. Aramis Ramirez-95
5. Scott Rolen-79
6. Garrett Atkins-58
7. Ryan Zimmerman-47 (1)
8. Joe Crede-44
9. Chipper Jones-34
10. Eric Chavez-33
11. Freddy Sanchez-25
12. Troy Glaus-23
13. Mike Lowell-5
14. Melvin Mora-4
15. Adrian Beltre-1

Thank you for participating and remember to cast your ballot for the Second Edition Current Top 10 Shortstops Poll

Beltre over Inge???

[Neilios]

Beltre over Inge???

I'm sure Brandon isn't heartbroken. He won a pennant and only Scott Rolen can say that on this list.

I'll take Placido (12th behind Brandon Phillps...who??) and Inge (did not place) on my AL champions. Now if only Guillen doesn't make the top 10 for SS...

[ChrisLDuncan]

Crede over Chipper? :hp

I like Crede's glove, and he wasn't bad with the stick either

[EvanAparra]

I like Crede's glove, and he wasn't bad with the stick either
Guy couldn't buy a walk... but Miguel Cabrera being number 1 is a pretty thing.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Guy couldn't buy a walk... but Miguel Cabrera being number 1 is a pretty thing.

Played a lot more games than Chipper, plus that defense is flawless. 30 HRs isn't bad either.

[EvanAparra]

.283/.323/.506
.324/.409/.596

I dont see how defense is going to make up for a 49 point edge at OPS+

But the games played thing is plausible, Chipper did miss a chunk of time, but in terms of the better player, it's Chipper, and it's not all that close, IMO.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well the 40 games AND the glove make up the difference ;)

If Chipper played 25 more games it would be him no doubt though.

[Rapmaster]

Well the 40 games AND the glove make up the difference ;)

If Chipper played 25 more games it would be him no doubt though.

Win Shares (not a rate stat) in 2004/05/06

Crede 8/14/20
Jones 19/20/21

That's not including Chipper's past dominance in the late 90s

I'm sure Brandon isn't heartbroken. He won a pennant and only Scott Rolen can say that on this list.

This year? Because Cabrera, Jones, Lowell, Glaus, and Crede all have...

[Rose4theHall]

Eric Chavez has the best glove in the AL, and played hurt all year this year. Even still, with his outstanding history there's no chance at all David Wright, Joe Crede, Ryan Zimmerman or Garret Atkins deserve to be ranked ahead of him. This poll must have an east coast bias.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Win Shares (not a rate stat) in 2004/05/06

Crede 8/14/20
Jones 19/20/21

That's not including Chipper's past dominance in the late 90s


Well overall yeah Chipper kills Crede, but I'll give it up to the guy who played all season for now...

[Rapmaster]

Well overall yeah Chipper kills Crede, but I'll give it up to the guy who played all season for now...

Suit yourself. Your vote, your opinion.

Question on the name though, you seem to be a Yankees fan. Is ChrisLDuncan your name or does it refer to Chris Duncan of the Cards? I always assumed you were a Cards fan and I get confused when you post about the Yankees.

Eric Chavez has the best glove in the AL, and played hurt all year this year. Even still, with his outstanding history there's no chance at all David Wright, Joe Crede, Ryan Zimmerman or Garret Atkins deserve to be ranked ahead of him. This poll must have an east coast bias.

Chavez does have one of the best gloves in the AL, cool. It didn't make up for the lack of production the last few years. Combining his defensive and offensive win shares for the last 3 years, he gets 19, 21, and 17. Zimmerman had 25 (only one season with 400+ plate appearances), Wright had 28 and 32 in his two seasons, Crede had 8, 14, and 20, and Atkins had 13 and 26.

So if you're going short spurts, there's an argument to be made. But in the past two years, Wright has been clearly more dominant. Atkins, Zimmerman, and Wright were superior this year (Crede is real close). So going by single seasons, he was trumped.

[Rose4theHall]

Chavez does have one of the best gloves in the AL, cool. It didn't make up for the lack of production the last few years. Combining his defensive and offensive win shares for the last 3 years, he gets 19, 21, and 17. Zimmerman had 25 (only one season with 400+ plate appearances), Wright had 28 and 32 in his two seasons, Crede had 8, 14, and 20, and Atkins had 13 and 26.

So if you're going short spurts, there's an argument to be made. But in the past two years, Wright has been clearly more dominant. Atkins, Zimmerman, and Wright were superior this year (Crede is real close). So going by single seasons, he was trumped.

a) I think you are undervaluing how important defense is, Chavez annihilates Wright and Atkins, who were league average defensively last year. Wright and Atkins are actually both historically below league average defensive 3Bmen. Crede had 2 OPS+ points up on Chavez (who begged to go on the DL or hit 9th because his forearm tendonitis basically shut down his swing, he would have had a better year had he been allowed to rest) and Crede was a lesser defensive 3Bman (not by much), so you can argue he had a slightly better year if you wanted.

b) Its also a litle easier to hit in the NL than in the AL.

c) Chavez's last 2 have been injury plagued, previously he had 5 years in a row that were as good as any offensive year Wright has put up so far, and better defense.

I find it funny that Chavez gets no love from the east coast, when there are only about 1 or 2 3Bmen that every GM would pick over him. Regardless of this "poll" Chavez is still in the top 3 3B in the game IMO.

[Rapmaster]

a) I think you are undervaluing how important defense is, Chavez annihilates Wright and Atkins, who were league average defensively last year. Wright and Atkins are actually both historically below league average defensive 3Bmen. Crede had 2 OPS+ points up on Chavez (who begged to go on the DL or hit 9th because his forearm tendonitis basically shut down his swing, he would have had a better year had he been allowed to rest) and Crede was a lesser defensive 3Bman (not by much), so you can argue he had a slightly better year if you wanted.

b) Its also a litle easier to hit in the NL than in the AL.

c) Chavez's last 2 have been injury plagued, previously he had 5 years in a row that were as good as any offensive year Wright has put up so far, and better defense.

I find it funny that Chavez gets no love from the east coast, when there are only about 1 or 2 3Bmen that every GM would pick over him. Regardless of this "poll" Chavez is still in the top 3 3B in the game IMO.

It should also be noted that Crede played with a back issue the past two seasons. It's not exactly like Chavez is the only hurt player to play in the spotlight. Being able to stay healthy is a huge factor as well. You can't say Mark Prior is the best starting pitcher in the past 5 years. His injuries have to be accounted for. Besides, if we're ignoring injuries, I'd argue Chipper Jones is the best third baseman of the era.

Defense is important, don't get me wrong. I like using win shares as a good measure because it allows for a quantitative comparison of offense and defense. How do you compare a "good" offensive player with "great" defense with a "great" offensive player with "good" defense? Win shares is more or less an accurate measure of how much of a difference those few extra balls could've made. To say that Chavez's 15-20 extra plays compensated as much as Wright's extra production. Quite frankly, it doesn't. If you can save 10 runs over the course of a year, great. But I'll take that 10 run hit if the replacement is producing 30 more.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Suit yourself. Your vote, your opinion.

Question on the name though, you seem to be a Yankees fan. Is ChrisLDuncan your name or does it refer to Chris Duncan of the Cards? I always assumed you were a Cards fan and I get confused when you post about the Yankees.


Oh yeah, huge Yankees fan...that's my actual name Christopher Leon Duncan. Now that the other Chris Duncan is quasi-famous now everyone on my baseball team (rec league) thinks I can't play OF D ;)

[Rose4theHall]

Defense is important, don't get me wrong. I like using win shares as a good measure because it allows for a quantitative comparison of offense and defense. How do you compare a "good" offensive player with "great" defense with a "great" offensive player with "good" defense? Win shares is more or less an accurate measure of how much of a difference those few extra balls could've made. To say that Chavez's 15-20 extra plays compensated as much as Wright's extra production. Quite frankly, it doesn't. If you can save 10 runs over the course of a year, great. But I'll take that 10 run hit if the replacement is producing 30 more.

Agreed, but even offensively Chavez's output for the 5 years before 05 and 06 look a lot like Wrights. But if you are talking about right now as of this second, then yes Chavez didnt hit well at all in those years, and the extra offense Wright provided made him a more valuable player. Chavez however is older and has been good for a longer period of time, no one in their right mind would take a rookie over him, and up until this year Crede's defense was 2nd to Chavez, and about 20th to every other 3Bman.

I just wish people would give more credit to Chavez's defense, 5 errors in a full season? Thats pretty remarkable no matter how you look at it. He's deserved every one of his gold gloves, no doubt. Getting rated 10th in a poll like this is somewhat discouraging.

[Rapmaster]

Agreed, but even offensively Chavez's output for the 5 years before 05 and 06 look a lot like Wrights. But if you are talking about right now as of this second, then yes Chavez didnt hit well at all in those years, and the extra offense Wright provided made him a more valuable player. Chavez however is older and has been good for a longer period of time, no one in their right mind would take a rookie over him, and up until this year Crede's defense was 2nd to Chavez, and about 20th to every other 3Bman.

I just wish people would give more credit to Chavez's defense, 5 errors in a full season? Thats pretty remarkable no matter how you look at it. He's deserved every one of his gold gloves, no doubt. Getting rated 10th in a poll like this is somewhat discouraging.

At least he's on the poll, remember that there are 30 starters out there :)

Most people are going by last year's numbers (Top 10 for the season) or by 3-5 year stretches (like me). So, in essence, his past contributions are less important. Otherwise, old farts in the twilight of their careers would sneak up on the polls. Chavez is far from finished, but he's diminishing.

Oh yeah, huge Yankees fan...that's my actual name Christopher Leon Duncan. Now that the other Chris Duncan is quasi-famous now everyone on my baseball team (rec league) thinks I can't play OF D

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I was known on my little league teams for playing terrible defense in the outfield. Had the arm, had the speed, but didn't have the eyes. It helps to see all colors out there when you're trying to pick up itty bitty specks against all sorts of scenery.