Tris Speaker V. Willie Mays

[538280]

Might have been Home Run Derby, but maybe not. 40 years is a long while to keep all the details clear.

He said it at the HR Derby? I don't even think they had HR Derbys back then, but if you watch the ones today you'd know that the contestants always say funny things just to fool around. It's more a carnival type attraction or a TV show than baseball. I wouldn't believe anything much of what anyone says at an HR derby.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Another unpopular opinion that I have here, however there are some pretty solid reasons for this one too.

1.) Speaker's defense, many have him as the best defensive CF as all time...better than Mays

2.) Higher career OPS+, BA, OBP, and more career hits. Also a far better K/BB ratio. Also a higher career RC/27

3.) In his day a better baserunner aswell

4.) Far superior WS play

Now I know if there was a poll Mays would win in a landslide so I am going to neglect a poll on this one again, but what do you all think?

[Appling]

Worthy of some thought and further discussion.

Prior to 1950 Tris Speaker was highly regarded, but soon afterwards he seems to have been forgotten. DiMaggio, Mantle and Mays were the new challanges to Tris Speaker's perceived greatness as the best CF ever.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Worthy of some thought and further discussion.

Prior to 1950 Tris Speaker was highly regarded, but soon afterwards he seems to have been forgotten. DiMaggio, Mantle and Mays were the new challanges to Tris Speaker's perceived greatness as the best CF ever.

I don't know why but Speaker just fell off by the wayside after a while, he's totally over looked IMO.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Another unpopular opinion that I have here, however there are some pretty solid reasons for this one too.

1.) Speaker's defense, many have him as the best defensive CF as all time...better than Mays

2.) Higher career OPS+, BA, OBP, and more career hits. Also a far better K/BB ratio. Also a higher career RC/27

3.) In his day a better baserunner aswell

4.) Far superior WS play

Now I know if there was a poll Mays would win in a landslide so I am going to neglect a poll on this one again, but what do you all think?
Speaker has a 158 OPS+ to Mays 156 OPS+. The difference is hardly significant. Speaker has an 8.25 RC/27 to Mays 7.86 RC/27. The gap is a little bigger but still not really significant. Also, Mays played in a far stronger league than Speaker ever did. I don't accept that Speaker was a better baserunner than Mays. Speaker played in the Dead Ball era when basestealing was a big offensive weapon. Mays played in an era where basestealing was basically non-existant. World Series play is too few games to be of any real importance. But Mays did suck in the World Series. So I'll give that to Speaker.

[Joltin' Joe]

Another unpopular opinion that I have here, however there are some pretty solid reasons for this one too.

1.) Speaker's defense, many have him as the best defensive CF as all time...better than Mays

2.) Higher career OPS+, BA, OBP, and more career hits. Also a far better K/BB ratio. Also a higher career RC/27

3.) In his day a better baserunner aswell

4.) Far superior WS play

Now I know if there was a poll Mays would win in a landslide so I am going to neglect a poll on this one again, but what do you all think?


Couple of my 2cents worth...:D

2) RC/27 is a stupid stat. Players do not get 27 outs. Players do not get outs they get PAs.

3) What's your take on his SB/CS ratio on the years that they are available? They are not very good to say the least. Here are the numbers.

1914: 42/29
1915: 29/25
1920: 10/13
1921: 2/4
1922: 8/3
1923: 10/9
1924: 5/7
1925: 5/2
1926: 6/1
1927: 9/8
1928: 5/1

Even when he was still young in 1914, 1915, & 1920, he had brutal CS ratio. Why do you think that was?

[EvanAparra]

Not sure about the SB ratio, but from 21-28, the # of attempts are so small it doesn't really matter all that much, IMO.

[Bill Burgess]

Worthy of some thought and further discussion.

Prior to 1950 Tris Speaker was highly regarded, but soon afterwards he seems to have been forgotten. DiMaggio, Mantle and Mays were the new challanges to Tris Speaker's perceived greatness as the best CF ever.
In the 50's, the NY sports writers tried to get DiMag to replace Speaker as the all time CF. Never went anywhere. Neither did Mick. But Mays has.

I rank Speaker above Mays defensively, due to his unbelievable backward flight. Some might believe that Mays could have done that too, if he played in deadball, but Speaker did do it, and better than other gifted ballhawks like Clyde Milan.

I rank Mays 4th all time, and Speaker is my 8th. Both are my ideal offensive/defensive combo players, right behind Honus.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Speaker has a 158 OPS+ to Mays 156 OPS+. The difference is hardly significant. Speaker has an 8.25 RC/27 to Mays 7.86 RC/27. The gap is a little bigger but still not really significant. Also, Mays played in a far stronger league than Speaker ever did. I don't accept that Speaker was a better baserunner than Mays. Speaker played in the Dead Ball era when basestealing was a big offensive weapon. Mays played in an era where basestealing was basically non-existant. World Series play is too few games to be of any real importance. But Mays did suck in the World Series. So I'll give that to Speaker.

Well your boy Wagner played in the Dead Ball and in weaker years and had a lower OPS+ than Speaker. So how does the LQ adjustments that you put to Speaker do to Wagner's stats compared to Mays? I'm not really big on LQ adjustments so much, but even with a little bit of LQ adjustments too me, Speaker's advantage with the glove put Speaker over the top.

[leecemark]

--How far apart you rank Speaker and Mays is a good gauge to how much you are adjusting for league quality (whether you do it formally or informally). They played the same position and are both on the short list for the best ever to man CF. Both the quality and quanity of their stats is very close. The main difference between them is the quality of the leagues they put those numbers up in.
--Virtually everyone has Mays ahead of Speaker, suggesting that even those who worship the early ballplayers do make a modest LQ adjustment. Few have more than 10-15 spaces in between, suggesting that even the leading LQ advocates are not making too extreme of one. I have Mays #1 and Speaker #12 amoung all (MLB) players and 1st and 4th amoung CFers.

[ChrisLDuncan]

--How far apart you rank Speaker and Mays is a good gauge to how much you are adjusting for league quality (whether you do it formally or informally). They played the same position and are both on the short list for the best ever to man CF. Both the quality and quanity of their stats is very close. The main difference between them is the quality of the leagues they put those numbers up in.
--Virtually everyone has Mays ahead of Speaker, suggesting that even those who worship the early ballplayers do make a modest LQ adjustment. Few have more than 10-15 spaces in between, suggesting that even the leading LQ advocates are not making too extreme of one. I have Mays #1 and Speaker #12 amoung all (MLB) players and 1st and 4th amoung CFers.


Amongst CFs I have:

1.) Ty Cobb
2.) Joe DiMaggio
3.) Mickey Mantle
4.) Tris Speaker
5.) Willie Mays

For all time players I have Speaker 10th and Mays 13th although I should really have him either 11th or 12th

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Well your boy Wagner played in the Dead Ball and in weaker years and had a lower OPS+ than Speaker. So how does the LQ adjustments that you put to Speaker do to Wagner's stats compared to Mays? I'm not really big on LQ adjustments so much, but even with a little bit of LQ adjustments too me, Speaker's advantage with the glove put Speaker over the top.
What does Wagner have to do with this discussion? IMO, Speaker's defense is a bit overblown. No one alive today saw him play and there is no film of Speaker playing. So all we have is eye-witness accounts and some incomplete statistics. At worst, they are even in defense.

[ChrisLDuncan]

What does Wagner have to do with this discussion?

Well I'm just wondering where old Hans ranks all time if you give Speaker the LQ drop, I dunno it just seems to me that Speaker is terribly underrated and deductions apply to him that don't apply to anyone else.

[leecemark]

--Honus Wagner would be an easy choice for my #1 player of all time without LQ adjustments. Even considering the exceptionally weak league he played in, Honus comes in 5th in my ratings.

[plask_stirlac]

Guys like Speaker and Wagner define batting and fieldings runs above average, check out their teammates numbers when they went off for a 180 OPS+ or higher. Nobody can slug .400.

I think Speaker and Mays are Top 10 All-Time. I have Willie fourth behind Cobb and the Grey Eagle 9th (2, 3).

[CTaka]

I am a big Speaker fan, but I have Willie a little ahead. You placed Speaker ahead of Mays on defense - personally, I agree with that based on the defensive stats available. But if Spoke is better on D, Willie is not far behind, so it's only a slight edge for the Grey Eagle.

Offensively, I'd give Mays the slight edge. As you point out, their OPS+ is just about even (2 point edge for Speaker), but I think Willie is ahead when you factor in an LQ adjustment. If Speaker had been a 20+ homer guy during the lively ball era, that would be enough to tip the offensive scales to Speaker's side IMO. I realize there are reasons (age, familiarity, etc) as to why Spoke didn't convert more of his double to homers following the deadball era. For the purposes of just comparing Mays and Speaker, I'm not concerned with the reasons. Whatever the reasons, the fact is he didn't do it.

I give Mays a somewhat bigger edge on the bases. Mays led the league four times (in consecutive years) and was in the top 10 eleven times. Speaker never finished higher than third and was in the top 10 eight times. Speaker's base stealing percentage in the years we have data is not nearly as impressive, even in the context of his era, than Mays'.

No question that Speaker performed better in the World Series than Willie, but the sample size is so small that I don't give it much weight in a comparison. If they were tied, I might use that as a tie breaker, but I have Willie ahead at bat (barely) and on the bases (clearly), so I'm not in need of a tiebreaker.

While Mays is still highly regarded by most baseball fans today, Speaker is sadly largely forgotten by today's fans. I'm glad he gets his due respect on Fever as one of the best ever to play the game.

[Bill Burgess]

Speaker is sadly largely forgotten by today's fans. I'm glad he gets his due respect on Fever as one of the best ever to play the game.
Amen, brother.

[KCGHOST]

To me they are virtually a push on offense. Unless one was appreciably better than the other on defense (I am not sure that evidence exists to prove that) it is still a push.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Amen, brother.

Yeah I don't know why's he so underrated by most people.

[mwiggins]

Well I'm just wondering where old Hans ranks all time if you give Speaker the LQ drop, I dunno it just seems to me that Speaker is terribly underrated and deductions apply to him that don't apply to anyone else.

They both have the LQ issue, but Wagner was better than Speaker, even with a lower career OPS+.

[mwiggins]

Mays. I've got Mays 3rd overall and Speaker 8th. Most of the difference is due to LQ. Without that adjustment, Speaker would be just a hair above Mays.

[ChrisLDuncan]

They both have the LQ issue, but Wagner was better than Speaker, even with a lower career OPS+.

See with Wagner he was the best player in baseball when he was plaing; albeit amongst players that are very rarely mentioned amongst the top 20 players of all time. Speaker was never the best player in baseball, some dudes by the name of Cobb and Ruth took that, but I don't think Mays was either. Maybe after Mantle went down hill, but other than that after a while McCovey was more feared on his own team.

[leecemark]

--McCovey didn't surpass Mays as the Giants best hitter until Willie was in his late 30s. And for a couple years McCovey wasn't just the best hitter on the Giants he was the best hitter in baseball. Thats like saying Ruth wasn't dominant because Gehrig was a better hitter in the latter stages of their time as teammates.

[ChrisLDuncan]

--McCovey didn't surpass Mays as the Giants best hitter until Willie was in his late 30s. And for a couple years McCovey wasn't just the best hitter on the Giants he was the best hitter in baseball. Thats like saying Ruth wasn't dominant because Gehrig was a better hitter in the latter stages of their time as teammates.

Well I wasn't slamming Mays, even though I should have been more clear and stated towards the end of his career, I was just saying that I see both Mays and Speaker as great players...but never really the best player in baseball for any considerable time.

[mwiggins]

Well I wasn't slamming Mays, even though I should have been more clear and stated towards the end of his career, I was just saying that I see both Mays and Speaker as great players...but never really the best player in baseball for any considerable time.

That's certainly a fair statement. Though I think Mays was the best player in baseball a little bit more often than was Speaker. And I think he was closer to the 'best' during his career than Speaker. Mays was a step behind Mantle through Mantle's peak, though I would say that Aaron and Mays were the best player in baseball in almost as many seasons as Mantle.

Speaker was probably the best player in baseball 2 or 3 seasons, but he was never really that close to Cobb, and later Ruth, as the best player in baseball. There was more distance between Cobb and Speaker than there was between Mantle and Mays.

But it great to see Speaker getting some respect. Such an overlooked player.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yeah I don't know why's he so underrated by most people.
Well, here at BBF, Speaker has his own thread, Mays does not. :)

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38504

[ChrisLDuncan]

Through both of these comparisons I'm starting to think that Mays is overrated. Some people have him as the best, and a lot of other people have him in their top three; all of this when he may not even be top three at his position?

[leecemark]

--You are probably the only person here who doubts Mays is one of the top 3 CFers ever. Willie was voted 3rd best player ever in last offseason's polls (behind Ruth and Cobb).

[leecemark]

--I went through my own list of Best Player (as opposed to MVP) Awards and checked on the centerfielders. Cobb, Mays and Mantle each won 7 Best in League (Mantle 7 in a row from 1955-61). I see 5 seasons where Cobb was the best player in MLB (although he may not have been the best player in all of baseball due to segregation). Mays wins 4 and Mantle 3. Speaker one 2 Best of AL and was also best overall in both seasons (1912 and 1916).
--An important thing to remember about MVP, best in league and relative stats is that Mays faced significantly tougher competition in the NL than Mantle in the AL (Hank Aaron makes most top 10 all times and only won ONE season by my accounting - one (1963) that could easily have gone to Mays). Mays won his first in 1954 (after missing 52-3 to the Korean War). Both Mays and Mantle won in 55, but I prefer Mays' season for best in baseball. Mays doesn't win again until 1961, although he was close every year. Mantle and Mays both win again in 61, but this time I prefer Mantle as best overall. Mays wins again in 62, 64 and 65 and is best overall each of those seasons (the NL winner being best overall every year except 61 from 58-66). Speaker did play in the tougher league as well, with the AL Best Player being better than the NL Best Player every year from 1909-1922 (and often the 3rd-4th best AL player was better than any NL player). Mays

[ChrisLDuncan]

--You are probably the only person here who doubts Mays is one of the top 3 CFers ever. Willie was voted 3rd best player ever in last offseason's polls (behind Ruth and Cobb).

Well I think Cobb, Mantle, and Speaker were better than him by comparison...and every ounce of Yankee fan in me says that DiMaggio was better than Mantle, so I have Joe D ahead of him asell...but I'm used to having unpopular, but justifiable, opinions.

[ChrisLDuncan]

--I went through my own list of Best Player (as opposed to MVP) Awards and checked on the centerfielders. Cobb, Mays and Mantle each won 7 Best in League (Mantle 7 in a row from 1955-61). I see 5 seasons where Cobb was the best player in MLB (although he may not have been the best player in all of baseball due to segregation). Mays wins 4 and Mantle 3. Speaker one 2 Best of AL and was also best overall in both seasons (1912 and 1916).


Well no way when they were both playing was Mays better than Mantle, everyone knows that, so I dunno if it's best in league or best in MLB, by Bill James' calculations Mantle has more than Mays (if not tied, I can't remember I only read the Abstract in the bookstores) so I don't know how you did your calculations. It's kind of hard to be the best player in the AL when you're in the same league with Cobb and Ruth who are usually one and two all time.

[mwiggins]

Well I think Cobb, Mantle, and Speaker were better than him by comparison...and every ounce of Yankee fan in me says that DiMaggio was better than Mantle, so I have Joe D ahead of him asell...but I'm used to having unpopular, but justifiable, opinions.

DiMaggio>Mantle is just hard to imagine. I can see Cobb, Mantle, and Speaker above Mays, but DiMaggio above Mantle AND Mays?:ughh You want to talk about Mays being overrated because he wasn't the best player in baseball during his time. But why not consider DiMaggio overrated, since he was probably only the best player in baseball for a brief period in the late 30's between Gehrig's decline and the rise of Williams and Musial.

[Edgartohof]

3.) In his day a better baserunner aswell


I just don't see how you can say that?

Sure he has a few more SB's to his credit, 94 more in fact (432 to 338), but like it was said, SB's were a lot more prevelant in Speaker's time, so to be a good baserunner, you needed a lot of SB's, and in fact, Speaker was not even really great for his own time. Sure he was good, but never considered the top runner in the game....while Mays did hold that distinction for a short while.

In fact, Speaker, Speaker was only in the top 10 for SB's 8 times, while Mays was there 11. Speaker only was in the top 5, 5 times, while Mays was there 7 times. And Speker never led his league in SB's, and in fact was only 3rd ONCE in his career, while Mays led his league in SB's 5 CONSECUTIVE years!!!

So tell me, who was better? The guy who has a few more SB's due to the environment he played in , or the guy who was a great baserunner for all-time?

[leecemark]

--Cobb and Ruth might have been 1 and 2 in one season, but Cobb's run of dominance was coming to an end as Ruth's was getting underway. I've got Cobb as AL Best in 1907-11, 15 and 17 and second to Ruth in 1918. Ruth wins 1918-21, 23-4 and 26-8. Speaker was #1 in 1912 and 1916 with Eddie Collins (1914) and Frank Baker (1913) each winning once during the teens and Ken Williams (1922) and Al Simmons (1925) also winning the honors in Spoke's career.
--As for Mays and Mantle, it was actually a great debate which was better when they were active. The general concensus that Mantle had the higher peak didn't come until much later and most still consider Mays to have had the greater career. Although I agree Mantle's best years were better than Mays, I think the difference is somewhat overstated due to the higher level of competition Mays faced for top honors in the league. Mays was also more consistent and durable even considering only each player's prime. Add in Mays superior defense and I think Mantle's peak edge is slight and Mays career edge is large.

[mwiggins]

Well no way when they were both playing was Mays better than Mantle, everyone knows that, so I dunno if it's best in league or best in MLB, by Bill James' calculations Mantle has more than Mays (if not tied, I can't remember I only read the Abstract in the bookstores) so I don't know how you did your calculations. It's kind of hard to be the best player in the AL when you're in the same league with Cobb and Ruth who are usually one and two all time.

James has Mantle the best player in baseball 4 times, Mays 3.5 times, and Speaker 4 times. But his 'rating' of best player is, I believe, simply based on win shares. So he wouldn't be accounting for the fact that Mantle played in a weaker league than Mays.

And everybody does NOT know that Mantle was better than Mays when they played. These stats that you posted in the Mays vs. Mantle thread show them basically dead even through 2005 games.

After the 1965 Season (pretty much the end of Mickey's prime) when each had played in exactly 2005 games

BA
Mays: .314
Mantle: .306

OBP
Mays: .389
Mantle: .426 (one point higher than Mays' career high)

SLG
Mays: .593
Mantle: .576

HR
Mays: 505
Mantle: 473

RBI:
Mays: 1402
Mantle: 1344

ABs:
Mays: 7594
Mantle: 6894

HR% between 1954-1963
Mays: 6.51
Mantle: 7.67

Mantle has a large edge in OBP, Mays has the edge in SLG, Mays has a large defensive edge, and a small baserunning edge. And Mays played in a tougher league. Those things make up Mantle's OBP edge to me.

[Edgartohof]

Through both of these comparisons I'm starting to think that Mays is overrated. Some people have him as the best, and a lot of other people have him in their top three; all of this when he may not even be top three at his position?

I imagine you may be getting reamed by this very shortly.

[leecemark]

--If each had played in 2005 games through 1965 that is a big edge in durability for Mays as well. Both were rookies in 1951, but Mays missed most of 52-3 to military service during the Korean War. Making up 2 lost years over the next dozen means Mays was in the lineup much more consistently.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Mantle has a large edge in OBP, Mays has the edge in SLG, Mays has a large defensive edge, and a small baserunning edge. And Mays played in a tougher league. Those things make up Mantle's OBP edge to me.

I'm not big on LQ adjustments, I mean you want to have the old "could he made in today's game" than I don't even think Wagner could be a bench warmer for a major league team.

Also since hitting is the most important part of a player's game, I still give Mantle's prime over Willies' by a mile but that doesn't belong on this thread thatbelongs on the other one doesn't it?

[ChrisLDuncan]

I just don't see how you can say that?

Sure he has a few more SB's to his credit, 94 more in fact (432 to 338), but like it was said, SB's were a lot more prevelant in Speaker's time, so to be a good baserunner, you needed a lot of SB's, and in fact, Speaker was not even really great for his own time. Sure he was good, but never considered the top runner in the game....while Mays did hold that distinction for a short while.

In fact, Speaker, Speaker was only in the top 10 for SB's 8 times, while Mays was there 11. Speaker only was in the top 5, 5 times, while Mays was there 7 times. And Speker never led his league in SB's, and in fact was only 3rd ONCE in his career, while Mays led his league in SB's 5 CONSECUTIVE years!!!

So tell me, who was better? The guy who has a few more SB's due to the environment he played in , or the guy who was a great baserunner for all-time?

When I made that assertion I forgot that SBs were a bigger offenisve weapon back than they were in Mays' time. So I really don't think you can compare the baserunning all that much, however as far as defense goes IMO Speaker leaves Mays in the dust.

[ChrisLDuncan]

DiMaggio>Mantle is just hard to imagine. I can see Cobb, Mantle, and Speaker above Mays, but DiMaggio above Mantle AND Mays?:ughh You want to talk about Mays being overrated because he wasn't the best player in baseball during his time. But why not consider DiMaggio overrated, since he was probably only the best player in baseball for a brief period in the late 30's between Gehrig's decline and the rise of Williams and Musial.

Hey look I'm not saying that it was a reasonable assertion or that I can even back it up, I did a while back but I gave Joe D huge war credit and gave him credit for hitting in a park where he can pull a ball 415 feet and have it get ran down. Just a feeling I have. Also in 1941 where Ted Williams hit .406 and was second best to Joe D in WS (well Joe D was the best player in baseball according to the abstract that season) was something incredible to me.

[leecemark]

--This is not about transporting players in time. It is comparing contemporary leagues. Most people consider the AL the tougher league now and you see shifts in performance level when a player changes leagues. The superiority of Mays' NL to Mantle's AL was even greater. The NL was MUCH faster to integrate and had most of the great stars of the period. Further, a disproportiante number of the best AL players were Mantle's teammates so he never had to compete against them. Of course, the difference between Mays and Speakers leagues is even greater than the one between Mays and Mantle's.

[mwiggins]

I'm not big on LQ adjustments, I mean you want to have the old "could he made in today's game" than I don't even think Wagner could be a bench warmer for a major league team.

Also since hitting is the most important part of a player's game, I still give Mantle's prime over Willies' by a mile but that doesn't belong on this thread thatbelongs on the other one doesn't it?

If you put Wagner in todays game, and allowed him access to the same nutritional and fitness programs of today's athletes, he'd be the best player in baseball. Even if you just did the 'time machine' thing and dropped him into today's game, he'd still be an all-star level player.

[ChrisLDuncan]

--This is not about transporting players in time. It is comparing contemporary leagues. Most people consider the AL the tougher league now and you see shifts in performance level when a player changes leagues. The superiority of Mays' NL to Mantle's AL was even greater. The NL was MUCH faster to integrate and had most of the great stars of the period. Further, a disproportiante number of the best AL players were Mantle's teammates so he never had to compete against them. Of course, the difference between Mays and Speakers leagues is even greater than the one between Mays and Mantle's.

See the thing is about all of this some how Mantle's Yankees were able to beat the NL's best team seven out of twelve times in the WS, and they went just about every year...so I dunno about the NL being that much better. The league difference is much different than it is now aswell

WS in the past eleven years

1996: Yankees
1997: Marlins
1998: Yankees
1999: Yankees
2000: Yankees
2001: Diamondbacks
2002: Angels
2003: Marlins
2004: Canceled ;)
2005: White Sox
2006: Cardnals

The NL was only able to muster up 4 WS in the past eleven years, and they won one by default (2006) so in this case the AL still has the best team most times out.

Also Mays' Giants durring the time of the NL's "dominace" always played bridesmaid and finished 2nd in the NL, and when they went to the WS they went 1-3 due in large part to Mays' god awful play, execpt for the time that they won where he was average at best.

Also the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline, and he wasn't even half the player that Mantle was (check my sig quote), so the LQ differnce between Mays and Mantle is a farce.

[ChrisLDuncan]

If you put Wagner in todays game, and allowed him access to the same nutritional and fitness programs of today's athletes, he'd be the best player in baseball. Even if you just did the 'time machine' thing and dropped him into today's game, he'd still be an all-star level player.

I dunno about that but that's a different thread.

[mwiggins]

Also the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline, and he wasn't even half the player that Mantle was (check my sig quote), so the LQ differnce between Mays and Mantle is a farce.

The fact that the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline (I'd say Ted Williams was the 2nd best) is EXACTLY why people consider the NL in his time to be stronger. There were many players in the NL better than or just as good as Kaline during the Mays/Mantle era. Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Mathews, Clemente, & Musial.

And the fact that the Yankees were better than any NL team many years during that period doesn't mean the AL was stronger overall. It just means the talent in the AL was more focused on one team.

[Edgartohof]

So I really don't think you can compare the baserunning all that much,

Well, you are the one who brought it up, so don't be getting mad at me for pointing out a major flaw in your argument.

however as far as defense goes IMO Speaker leaves Mays in the dust.

Umm...yeah, not so much. Speaker may certainly been better, but not by any considerable amount. In fact, they are pretty much on par with each other, though I do put Speaker ahead just slightly.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well, you are the one who brought it up, so don't be getting mad at me for pointing out a major flaw in your argument.


I wasn't getting mad at you, my appologies if I sounded mean.


Umm...yeah, not so much. Speaker may certainly been better, but not by any considerable amount. In fact, they are pretty much on par with each other, though I do put Speaker ahead just slightly.

I think that Mays' D is overrated due to his flashiness, and Speaker's is underrated because no one really saw him.

[ChrisLDuncan]

The fact that the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline (I'd say Ted Williams was the 2nd best) is EXACTLY why people consider the NL in his time to be stronger. There were many players in the NL better than or just as good as Kaline during the Mays/Mantle era. Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Mathews, Clemente, & Musial.

And the fact that the Yankees were better than any NL team many years during that period doesn't mean the AL was stronger overall. It just means the talent in the AL was more focused on one team.

Well from what I remember Musial wasn't that good when Mays started playing, also you're forgetting that by and large Mantle's Yankees mopped the floor with the NL in the WS, so I'd venture to say that atleast the Yankees were better than the NL.

[mwiggins]

Well from what I remember Musial wasn't that good when Mays started playing, also you're forgetting that by and large Mantle's Yankees mopped the floor with the NL in the WS, so I'd venture to say that atleast the Yankees were better than the NL.

They WERE better, but Mantle wasn't playing in a league made up just of the Yankees. Or having his relative stats compared to just the Yankees. He's being compared against the entire league.

Musial was still a very good when Mays started. Not as good as Williams was during the 50's, but still a very good player.

1951 - 182 OPS+
1954 - 166 OPS+
1955 - 156 OPS+
1956 - 142 OPS+
1957 - 172 OPS+
1958 - 146 OPS+

[Bill Burgess]

Well, here at BBF, Speaker has his own thread, Mays does not. :)

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38504
I'd say it's high time someone corrected that situation. Who will step up?

[JRB]

The fact that the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline (I'd say Ted Williams was the 2nd best) is EXACTLY why people consider the NL in his time to be stronger. There were many players in the NL better than or just as good as Kaline during the Mays/Mantle era. Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Mathews, Clemente, & Musial.

And the fact that the Yankees were better than any NL team many years during that period doesn't mean the AL was stronger overall. It just means the talent in the AL was more focused on one team.

So as not to sell the American short during the 1950's and early 1960's, it should also be remembered that there were additional notable players who were sluggers besides Mantle, Kaline and Williams. Among others there were Jackie Jensen, Larry Doby, Luke Easter, Rocky Colavito, Minnie Minoso, Al Rosen, Gus Zernial, Roy Sievers, Yogi Berra, Vic Wertz, Bill "Moose" Skowron, Elston Howard, Ray Boone, Hank Bauer, Al Smith, Bob Cerv, Gene Woodling, Gus Triandos, Charlie Maxwell, Gil McDougald, Norm Siebern, Jim Lemon, etc, and by 1959 you had Tito Francona, and Harmon Killebrew and Bob Allison breaking out, and Ted Kluszewski coming over from the National League, and by 1960 you had Roger Maris breaking out and "Diamond" Jim Gentile and Johnny Romano, and by 1961 you had added on, among others, Norm Cash, Leon Wagner, Willie Kirkland, Carl Yastrzemski, Floyd Robinson, Lee Thomas, etc. and shortly thereafter you had Boog Powell, Tom Tresh, Chuck Hinton, Earl Battey and Brooks Robinson upping his offensive game and Don Mincher, and in 1963 Jimmie Hall, Joe Pepitone, Pete Ward, Don Lock and Dick Stuart coming over from the National League, and by 1964 you were adding the likes of Tony Oliva, Tony Conigliaro, Bill Freehan, Jim Fregosi, etc, and in 1965 Frank Howard coming over from the National League and Willie Horton, Curt Blefary, etc. The AL of Mantle's era was not without heavyweight offensive firepower. Not to mention a plethora of good singles type hitters such as Ferris Fain, Mickey Vernon, Dale Mitchell, George Kell, Bobby Avilla, Billy Goodman, Nellie Fox, Harvey Kuenn, Vic Power, Pete Runnels, Russ Snyder, Bobby Richardson, etc, and players famous for obtaining walks such as Eddie Yost "The Walking Man", and great base runners such as Luis Aparicio.

[JRB]

The fact that the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline (I'd say Ted Williams was the 2nd best) is EXACTLY why people consider the NL in his time to be stronger. There were many players in the NL better than or just as good as Kaline during the Mays/Mantle era. Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Mathews, Clemente, & Musial.

And the fact that the Yankees were better than any NL team many years during that period doesn't mean the AL was stronger overall. It just means the talent in the AL was more focused on one team.

So as not to sell the American short during the 1950's and early 1960's, it should also be remembered that there were additional notable players who were sluggers besides Mantle, Kaline and Williams. Among others there were Jackie Jensen, Larry Doby, Luke Easter, Rocky Colavito, Minnie Minoso, Al Rosen, Gus Zernial, Roy Sievers, Yogi Berra, Vic Wertz, Bill "Moose" Skowron, Elston Howard, Ray Boone, Hank Bauer, Al Smith, Bob Cerv, Gene Woodling, Gus Triandos, Charlie Maxwell, Gil McDougald, Norm Siebern, Jim Lemon, etc, and by 1959 you had Tito Francona, and Harmon Killebrew and Bob Allison breaking out, and Ted Kluszewski coming over from the National League, and by 1960 you had Roger Maris breaking out and "Diamond" Jim Gentile and Johnny Romano, and by 1961 you had added on, among others, Norm Cash, Leon Wagner, Willie Kirkland, Carl Yastrzemski, Floyd Robinson, Lee Thomas, etc. and shortly thereafter you had Boog Powell, Tom Tresh, Chuck Hinton, Earl Battey and Brooks Robinson upping his offensive game and Don Mincher, and in 1963 Jimmie Hall, Joe Pepitone, Pete Ward, Don Lock and Dick Stuart coming over from the National League, and by 1964 you were adding the likes of Tony Oliva, Tony Conigliaro, Bill Freehan, Jim Fregosi, etc, and in 1965 Frank Howard coming over from the National League and Willie Horton, Curt Blefary, etc. The AL of Mantle's era was not without heavyweight offensive firepower. Not to mention a plethora of good singles type hitters such as Ferris Fain, Mickey Vernon, Dale Mitchell, George Kell, Bobby Avilla, Billy Goodman, Nellie Fox, Harvey Kuenn, Vic Power, Pete Runnels, Russ Snyder, Bobby Richardson, etc, and players famous for obtaining walks such as Eddie Yost "The Walking Man", and great base runners such as Luis Aparicio.

[mwiggins]

So as not to sell the American short during the 1950's and early 1960's, it should also be remembered that there were additional notable players who were sluggers besides Mantle, Kaline and Williams. Among others there were Jackie Jensen, Larry Doby, Luke Easter, Rocky Colavito, Minnie Minoso, Al Rosen, Gus Zernial, Roy Sievers, Yogi Berra, Vic Wertz, Bill "Moose" Skowron, Elston Howard, Ray Boone, Hank Bauer, Al Smith, Bob Cerv, Gene Woodling, Gus Triandos, Charlie Maxwell, Gil McDougald, Norm Siebern, Jim Lemon, etc, and by 1959 you had Tito Francona, and Harmon Killebrew and Bob Allison breaking out, and Ted Kluszewski coming over from the National League, and by 1960 you had Roger Maris breaking out and "Diamond" Jim Gentile and Johnny Romano, and by 1961 you had added on, among others, Norm Cash, Leon Wagner, Willie Kirkland, Carl Yastrzemski, Floyd Robinson, Lee Thomas, etc. and shortly thereafter you had Boog Powell, Tom Tresh, Chuck Hinton, Earl Battey and Brooks Robinson upping his offensive game and Don Mincher, and in 1963 Jimmie Hall, Joe Pepitone, Pete Ward, Don Lock and Dick Stuart coming over from the National League, and by 1964 you were adding the likes of Tony Oliva, Tony Conigliaro, Bill Freehan, Jim Fregosi, etc, and in 1965 Frank Howard coming over from the National League and Willie Horton, Curt Blefary, etc. The AL of Mantle's era was not without heavyweight offensive firepower. Not to mention a plethora of good singles type hitters such as Ferris Fain, Mickey Vernon, Dale Mitchell, George Kell, Bobby Avilla, Billy Goodman, Nellie Fox, Harvey Kuenn, Vic Power, Pete Runnels, Russ Snyder, Bobby Richardson, etc, and players famous for obtaining walks such as Eddie Yost "The Walking Man", and great base runners such as Luis Aparicio.

Good list JRB. Kaline was more post-Mantle anyway. He, Frank Robinson, and Yaz pretty much replaced him at the top of the AL food chain. But it's still hard to argue that they NL of that period didn't have more talent.

Mays
Aaron
Banks
Williams
Mathews
Robinson
Clemente
Musial
Alllen
McCovey
Cepeda
Brock
K. Boyer
Wills
Ashburn
Howard
Adcock
Snider
Santo
Wynn
Morgan
Torre
Stargell
Rose
Flood
Maz

[JRB]

Good list JRB. Kaline was more post-Mantle anyway. He, Frank Robinson, and Yaz pretty much replaced him at the top of the AL food chain. But it's still hard to argue that they NL of that period didn't have more talent.

Mays
Aaron
Banks
Williams
Mathews
Robinson
Clemente
Musial
Alllen
McCovey
Cepeda
Brock
K. Boyer
Wills
Ashburn
Howard
Adcock
Snider
Santo
Wynn
Morgan
Torre
Stargell
Rose
Flood
Maz

Good list yourself mwiggins. However, I have to disagree with your assertion that Kaline was post-Mantle. Kaline won the batting title as early as 1955, Mantle's 4th year in the league, and he was probably the second best player in the league that year, and again in 1956, and with the exception of one year he was consistently oustanding from then on.

It should also be kept in mind that the NL players you listed above entered the league or had their break out years in a staggered fashion, and many didn't become factors until Mays' late prime or declining years, and by the time they did many of the others were either gone or no longer factors. Richie Allen didn't enter the league until 1964 by which time Musial had already retired, and in any event after 1957 Musial was in a significant decline mode. McCovey was a part time player until 1963, and then slipped again the next year, and didn't become full time for good until 1965. Jimmie Wynn didn't start to emerge until 1965, and was not really a significant player until 1967. Willie Stargell didn't really break out until around 1965. Rose's rookie year was 1963, and he didn't become a .300 hitter until 1965. Lou Brock didn't emerge until after his mid-season trade to the Cardinals in 1964. Mays' prime basically ended in 1966 (while Mantle's basically ended in 1964). So a goodly portion of the players listed didn't really hit their stride for any length of time until Mays' prime was over.

However, in all fairness to the NL, I would augment your list with the names of Gil Hodges, Dick Groat and Ted Kluszewski prior to his trade to the AL in 1959, and also Johnny Callison emerged in 1962.

[yanks0714]

Well I think Cobb, Mantle, and Speaker were better than him by comparison...and every ounce of Yankee fan in me says that DiMaggio was better than Mantle, so I have Joe D ahead of him asell...but I'm used to having unpopular, but justifiable, opinions.

Every ounce of Yankee fan in me says that Mickey was better than Joe.

And being a die-hard Yankee fan while at the same time trying hard to be objective I rank my CF'ers thusly:

1) Mays
2) Cobb
3) Speaker
4) Mantle
5) DiMaggio
6) Hamilston
7) Snider
8) Ashburn
9) Puckett
10) Who knows? Duffy, Roush, Carey, etc???

[yanks0714]

See the thing is about all of this some how Mantle's Yankees were able to beat the NL's best team seven out of twelve times in the WS, and they went just about every year...so I dunno about the NL being that much better. The league difference is much different than it is now aswell.

The Yankees were about the only team repping the AL. They were the class of the Al. The other teams were so weak they couldn't dethrone the Yankees and were the 7 weak sisters'.
The NL had much greater competition and better overall players even though the Yankees won the WS.

Also Mays' Giants durring the time of the NL's "dominace" always played bridesmaid and finished 2nd in the NL, and when they went to the WS they went 1-3 due in large part to Mays' god awful play, execpt for the time that they won where he was average at best.

So what? So the Yankees were the better team in the WS? The NL had a much greater volume of great players overall. Awesome competition.

Also the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline, and he wasn't even half the player that Mantle was (check my sig quote), so the LQ differnce between Mays and Mantle is a farce.

You just disproved your own point. If Kaline was second to Mantle while the NL had a number of players better or as good as Kaline that pretty much proves the NL had more talent than the AL making them the stronger league.

[yanks0714]

I think that Mays' D is overrated due to his flashiness, and Speaker's is underrated because no one really saw him.

Uh, Willie was flashy that's for sure. But he was able to back it up with excellent D. If you want an example of flashiness not backed up, take look at Roberto Clemente.

BTW, from what I've read Speaker was considered somewhat "flashy" for his era.

[yanks0714]

Well from what I remember Musial wasn't that good when Mays started playing, also you're forgetting that by and large Mantle's Yankees mopped the floor with the NL in the WS, so I'd venture to say that atleast the Yankees were better than the NL.

Huh? Are you ElHalo's twin? Musial was still a darn good player when Willie started. A superstar. Where did you get this, "...wasn't that good..." comment?

Yeah, the Yankees mopped the floor with the NL in the WS, but we're talking league strength not one team in a league.

BTW, the Yanks 1949 - 1953 streak came to an end in 1954 to the Indians; lost to Brooklyn in 1955; lost to Milwaukee in 1957; had to come back from down 3 -1 to win the 1958 WS against Milwaukee; finished 3rd in 1959; lost to the Pirates in 1960; dang near lost in 1962; lost in 1963 and 1964 to the Dodgers and Cardinals.
The only 2 AL teams to win an AL pennant in '54 (Indians) and '59 White Sox lost the WS. In the meantime, over in the NL, the Dodgers, Giants, Braves, Pirates, Reds in 1961, and Cardinals in 1964 were winning NL pennants.
The Yanks dominated a weak league but didn't exactly "mop the floor" with the stronger NL either.

[yanks0714]

I'd say it's high time someone corrected that situation. Who will step up?

Be careful, Bill. If Willie gets his own thread it may well cause even more people to pick him over Ty. :waving :rolleyes: :)

[538280]

I think that Mays' D is overrated due to his flashiness, and Speaker's is underrated because no one really saw him.

Mays' D is not overrated. He was rather flashy out there, but he had the goods behind that flashiness. I agree with Yanks. In fact, among many people looking at statistics like range factor it can even be underrated. Take Richie Ashburn versus Mays for example. Ashburn has the best raw defensive stats of any outfielder-but that is heavily inflated by the flyball pitching staff he was behind. Mays played in front of a staff which did not give up a ton of groundballs, in context of that his range is just as good as Ashburn's IMO-and of course he had a MUCH better arm. Look at this link:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=742630&postcount=107

[ChrisLDuncan]

You just disproved your own point. If Kaline was second to Mantle while the NL had a number of players better or as good as Kaline that pretty much proves the NL had more talent than the AL making them the stronger league.

Hmm all I was saying is that everyone thinks there was this huge dispairity between the leagues and that the NL was demonstrably better, if that's the case than they should be above .500 in the WS

[ChrisLDuncan]

The Yanks dominated a weak league but didn't exactly "mop the floor" with the stronger NL either.

Well seeing as how Mantle went 7-5 against the NL and DiMaggio went 9-1 agains them I would consider that a jolly good stomping.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Mays' D is not overrated. He was rather flashy out there, but he had the goods behind that flashiness. I agree with Yanks. In fact, among many people looking at statistics like range factor it can even be underrated. Take Richie Ashburn versus Mays for example. Ashburn has the best raw defensive stats of any outfielder-but that is heavily inflated by the flyball pitching staff he was behind. Mays played in front of a staff which did not give up a ton of groundballs, in context of that his range is just as good as Ashburn's IMO-and of course he had a MUCH better arm. Look at this link:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=742630&postcount=107

Hmm well just because he was good doesn't exactly mean that he's overrated, for example I say that Pujols is the most overrated player in baseball right now...however I think he's one of the three best players if not the best player in baseball too. I'm hearing all this noise that he's the best hitter ever, when I don't even know if he'll be better than Manny by the time his career is over. Likewise with Mays, alot of people say that he's the best defensive CF of all time, well I think that's Speaker as well as some other ones who I forgot about. Aundrew Jones and Torii Hunter also play some slick D in center field, robbing players of hits. I don't know how good they are compared to Mays all I have are stats and highlights of Mays, some eye witness accounts, but like I said I believe his flashiness overrates him a bit because he was fun to watch. The players who are entertaining on the field are always overrated by the general public, like Barry Sanders for example. I wouldn't exactly say that he was better than Emmitt, or maybe even better than an Eric Dickerson...but Sanders gets alot of style points.

[Bill Burgess]

NL in Mays' time:

Mays, Aaron, Banks, Williams, Mathews, Robinson, Clemente, Musial, Alllen, McCovey, Cepeda, Brock, K. Boyer, Wills, Ashburn, Howard, Adcock, Snider, Santo, Wynn, Morgan, Torre, Stargell, Rose, Flood, Maz

You forgot and I would add; Ralph Kiner, Big Klu, Wally Moon, Vada Pinson, Tommy Davis, Junior Gilliam, Dick Groat, Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Jackie Robinson, Campanella, Felippe Alou, Tony Perez.

[Bill Burgess]

Uh, Willie was flashy that's for sure. But he was able to back it up with excellent D. If you want an example of flashiness not backed up, take look at Roberto Clemente.
Huh? Excuse me? Another member once surmised that Roberto Clemente was all arm and no other D. I beg to differ. And in substantiation, I humbly submit some evidence into evidence. Hope these clarify the confusion.

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=514372&postcount=209

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=514373&postcount=210

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=707883&postcount=596

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=699477&postcount=590

Will these do?

Bill

[Bill Burgess]

Be careful, Bill. If Willie gets his own thread it may well cause even more people to pick him over Ty. :waving :rolleyes: :)
Maybe so, but I'd still put Fever's interests over the interests of Ty Cobb. Wouldn't you?

old buddy

[THE OX]

I'd like to get this thread back "on-subject," if I may.

I remember when Speaker died back in December of 1958 that a great deal of attention was paid to his passing at the time, and all the write-ups declared what an exemplary centerfielder and hitter he was. So the folks who actually remembered him as a player had a very high opinion of him.

Me being just a kid at the time, I never saw him play, but saw Mays play a lot. For a combination of speed, power, and fielding ability, I think Willie may be the finest all-around combination of talents I've ever seen.

Just did a little checking, and see that both Speaker and Mays averaged about 2.5 putouts/game, with a decided edge to Speaker in assists and double plays. OTOH, many of Speaker's batting stats suggest a leadoff or 2nd batter rather than a middle-of-the-lineup hitter such as Mays was.

Bottom line, at least where my opinion is concerned, I'd still rate Willie higher, due mainly to actually having seen him play. But my respect for Speaker has increased after reading the various posts which actually dealt with the subject of these two (and NOT Cobb, Mantle, Kaline, DiMaggio, etc.). And that respect for Speaker increased even more after reviewing his impressive offensive and defensive stats.

And I think if I'd actually seen Speaker play, my respect for him might be even higher yet. Perhaps even higher than my respect for Willie Mays.....

[Edgartohof]

1) Mays
2) Cobb
3) Speaker
4) Mantle
5) DiMaggio
6) Hamilston
7) Snider
8) Ashburn
9) Puckett
10) Who knows? Duffy, Roush, Carey, etc???

No Griffey? He at least deserves top 10, and most have him around 6th in fact. What's holding him back for you?

[538280]

I don't know how good they are compared to Mays all I have are stats and highlights of Mays, some eye witness accounts, but like I said I believe his flashiness overrates him a bit because he was fun to watch. The players who are entertaining on the field are always overrated by the general public, like Barry Sanders for example. I wouldn't exactly say that he was better than Emmitt, or maybe even better than an Eric Dickerson...but Sanders gets alot of style points.

I can say that I sometimes agree with you. Players who play with flair or popular style can be overrated by the general public. But I don't see any of that happening with Mays, or at least not on this forum. Most of the people here who support Mays are the more statistically inclined, the type who usually urge to factor things like flashiness out and do not rely very much on contemporary opinion. I can say myself that the way Willie Mays was regarded by his contemporaries has close to nothing to do with the way I look at him as a player. The only place might be in the fielding department, but the statistical evidence with Mays' defense is also very impressive, and doesn't bring his defensive rep down one bit.

[538280]

Huh? Excuse me? Another member once surmised that Roberto Clemente was all arm and no other D. I beg to differ. And in substantiation, I humbly submit some evidence into evidence. Hope these clarify the confusion.

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=514372&postcount=209

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=514373&postcount=210

Will these do?

Bill

Bill, a few isolated photos from a career of almost 2500 games hardly serve to prove anything. Most bad fielders make at least three good defensive plays in their career, if they last long. I've even seen Manny Ramirez make a few great ones. I think Roberto Clemente was a very good defensive RFer, and one of the top 5 or so all time, but I do agree that Clemente is an example of a flashy player who did not really back it up that well, and thus was overrated because of it (Willie Mays is NOT an example of that!).

Clemente had an awesome arm and an awesome batting average. Those are the two things which he is mainly known for and he did have both. As a defensive OFer outside of his arm he was not great though. He was not very fast, did not have exceptional range, and his fielding percentages were usually below average-he made a lot of errors. With his arm he was still one of the best RFers of all time, but his defensive skill is easily exaggerated-it is nothing more than a marginal edge over players like Reggie Jackson, given that they were corner OFs.

Clemente had a great BA, but his offensive game in other areas was not great. He almost never walked, and the result is that his OBP is not so great. It was still pretty good because of his BA, but it was not as great as it could have been, his BA overrates him in that sense. His power was good, but hardly great at all. His ISO was .158, which was 17% above average in his time. That is not great power.

He had a very good BA, but he very rarely walked and his power was only moderate for a corner OF of his vintage. His OPS+ was 130. I think you're lying if you claim that Clemente's defense is enough to overcome the hitting advantage he has on a player like Reggie Jackson. Reggie's OPS+ was 139, and he did that with a long decline which Clemente did not have. Reggie Jackson before his decline (through 1982) had a 149 OPS+-19 points higher than Clemente's rather than 9. Clemente was a better fielder, but Reggie was good. Reggie was faster and a better baserunner. How the hell is Clemente better? Clemente also did worse in MVP voting in his time-Reggie has 3.28 MVP vote shares to Clemente's 2.80. The contemporary observers were more impressed with Reggie Jackson than Roberto Clemente, if you like to use those types of things (I don't, but I know we have many who do).

[ChrisLDuncan]

Bill, a few isolated photos from a career of almost 2500 games hardly serve to prove anything. Most bad fielders make at least three good defensive plays in their career, if they last long. I've even seen Manny Ramirez make a few great ones. I think Roberto Clemente was a very good defensive RFer, and one of the top 5 or so all time, but I do agree that Clemente is an example of a flashy player who did not really back it up that well, and thus was overrated because of it (Willie Mays is NOT an example of that!).

Well I'd say that Clemente was the best defensive RF of all time, if not him than Al Kaline. Mays was good defensively there's no doubt about that, but I think that his flashiness overrates him...there are some people who think that he was the best defensvie center fielder of all time, which in my mind he is not.

[538280]

Mays was good defensively there's no doubt about that, but I think that his flashiness overrates him

Again, where on this forum is that happening, how do you think I am overrating him because of his flashiness? That is EXACTLY the kind of thing I urge people to totally ignore. Remember what I said about Joe DiMaggio? What is aesthetically impressive is not necessarily what wins games, I totally understand that. Willie Mays was extremely impressive aesthetically, but he was just as impressive in what he did for his team.

I don't think Mays is the best defensive CFer either. I would say it is Speaker, but Mays may very well be #2.

[AlecBoy006]

While we can all agree Mays was brilliant offensively, that 11 straight gold gloves is nice. Don't you agree?

[Bill Burgess]

Bill, a few isolated photos from a career of almost 2500 games hardly serve to prove anything. Most bad fielders make at least three good defensive plays in their career, if they last long. I've even seen Manny Ramirez make a few great ones. I think Roberto Clemente was a very good defensive RFer, and one of the top 5 or so all time, but I do agree that Clemente is an example of a flashy player who did not really back it up that well, and thus was overrated because of it (Willie Mays is NOT an example of that!).
Yeah, I'm afraid that Clemente's fielding photos prove his case, Chris. These 4 photos are not isolated. I could have posted many more, but I didn't want to overstate his case. I saw him field and you didn't, so how in hell can you debate his fielding with me? You aren't qualified.

One photo is worth a thousand words. And I was only defending his fielding this time around. So, why are you sneaking in his all-around case? And furthermore, who in the hell mentioned Reggie Jackson??? You are a sneaky little rapscallion. Can't take our eyes off of you without you trying to debate your favorites again!

And those who only make a few great defensive plays don't get rhapsodized by an era. Too many other good gloves for that to happen. And Willie Mays once admitted he deliberately made the easy ones look hard, and the hard ones look easy. He admitted it on camera, Chris.

[yanks0714]

Hmm all I was saying is that everyone thinks there was this huge dispairity between the leagues and that the NL was demonstrably better, if that's the case than they should be above .500 in the WS

Chris, can you not understand that when you talk about the Yankees you are talking about one of the eight teams in the league? What about the other seven?
The WS is not an indicator or league strength. It pits 1 Al team against 1 NL team. That's only two teams. What about the other 14 (or after 1962, 16 teams)?

When you talk about league strength you are talking about all the teams in both leagues, not just 1 from each league.

Look at the All-Star game. Once the NL had signed many of the good black young players they dominated the All-Star game. That should give you an indicator of league strength in a nutshell.

[yanks0714]

Well seeing as how Mantle went 7-5 against the NL and DiMaggio went 9-1 agains them I would consider that a jolly good stomping.

Forget DiMaggio. That's not the era we were talking about. Look at my post where I show the Yanks yearly finishes starting in 1954 to 1964. The Yankees went to the WS 9 of those years 11 years....and they won the WS in 'only' 4 of them.
In my book that is not mopping the floor with the NL.

[westfield]

And Willie Mays once admitted he deliberately made the easy ones look hard, and the hard ones look easy. He admitted it on camera, Chris.
Hi
This I have never seen or heard of-although Willie said alot of stuff to the press that doesnt make any sense. Do you remember what show it is you are referring to?
Thanks

[yanks0714]

Huh? Excuse me? Another member once surmised that Roberto Clemente was all arm and no other D. I beg to differ. And in substantiation, I humbly submit some evidence into evidence. Hope these clarify the confusion.

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=514372&postcount=209

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=514373&postcount=210

Will these do?

Bill

Bill, That other poster may well have been me on another thread.
I stand by my assertion about Clemente. He was good and he was flashy and he was fun to watch.

BUT, he didn't position himself for the game circumstances, playing pretty much straight away RF. This resulted in him having to make running, diving, sliding catches. In making these type attempts he wasn't always successful, giving the hitter extra bases.

He 'showed off' his arm strength at a detriment of the team. He always gunned for any runner trying to go from 1st to 3rd...allowing the batter to take 2nd on the throw, depriving the pitcher of his best friend...the force play at 2nd as well as the prelude to a DP. Don Hoak said he hated to take Clemente's throws on such plays because he short hopped throws

The above comes from a number of his former teammates.

[Bill Burgess]

Hi
This I have never seen or heard of-although Willie said alot of stuff to the press that doesnt make any sense. Do you remember what show it is you are referring to?
Thanks
Wish I did. It was an interview.

[yanks0714]

Maybe so, but I'd still put Fever's interests over the interests of Ty Cobb. Wouldn't you?

old buddy

Yes, I do. A Willie Mays thread would be interesting but may get hijacked by Cobb and mantle comps too much.
Besides I enjoy reading your posts supporting Cobb. :)

[Bill Burgess]

Bill, That other poster may well have been me on another thread.
I stand by my assertion about Clemente. He was good and he was flashy and he was fun to watch.

BUT, he didn't position himself for the game circumstances, playing pretty much straight away RF. This resulted in him having to make running, diving, sliding catches. In making these type attempts he wasn't always successful, giving the hitter extra bases.

He 'showed off' his arm strength at a detriment of the team. He always gunned for any runner trying to go from 1st to 3rd...allowing the batter to take 2nd on the throw, depriving the pitcher of his best friend...the force play at 2nd as well as the prelude to a DP. Don Hoak said he hated to take Clemente's throws on such plays because he short hopped throws

The above comes from a number of his former teammates.

The only weakness I saw in Roberto's outfielding might have been a slight lack of speed, which decreased his range. Which might have accounted for him not being a center fielder. That and Bill Virdon being a great ball hawk.

[westfield]

While we can all agree Mays was brilliant offensively, that 11 straight gold gloves is nice. Don't you agree?

Actually, I think it was 12 straight gold gloves...not 11

[yanks0714]

No Griffey? He at least deserves top 10, and most have him around 6th in fact. What's holding him back for you?

My apologies. I don't rank active players with those whose careers have ended. The reasoning is that I want to see their entire careers including their decline phases. If Griffey retired tomorrow, I'd likely have in at around 6th, ahead of Hamilton and behind Joe D.

[westfield]

Wish I did. It was an interview.
Ok thanks-I think I remember Rigney saying something like that once, but not Willie. It was something along the lines that Willie made the hard catches look easy and the easy ones looked hard in comparison.
If you remember please let me know
Thanks

[yanks0714]

Bill, a few isolated photos from a career of almost 2500 games hardly serve to prove anything. Most bad fielders make at least three good defensive plays in their career, if they last long. I've even seen Manny Ramirez make a few great ones. I think Roberto Clemente was a very good defensive RFer, and one of the top 5 or so all time, but I do agree that Clemente is an example of a flashy player who did not really back it up that well, and thus was overrated because of it (Willie Mays is NOT an example of that!).

Clemente had an awesome arm and an awesome batting average. Those are the two things which he is mainly known for and he did have both. As a defensive OFer outside of his arm he was not great though. He was not very fast, did not have exceptional range, and his fielding percentages were usually below average-he made a lot of errors. With his arm he was still one of the best RFers of all time, but his defensive skill is easily exaggerated-it is nothing more than a marginal edge over players like Reggie Jackson, given that they were corner OFs.

Clemente had a great BA, but his offensive game in other areas was not great. He almost never walked, and the result is that his OBP is not so great. It was still pretty good because of his BA, but it was not as great as it could have been, his BA overrates him in that sense. His power was good, but hardly great at all. His ISO was .158, which was 17% above average in his time. That is not great power.

He had a very good BA, but he very rarely walked and his power was only moderate for a corner OF of his vintage. His OPS+ was 130. I think you're lying if you claim that Clemente's defense is enough to overcome the hitting advantage he has on a player like Reggie Jackson. Reggie's OPS+ was 139, and he did that with a long decline which Clemente did not have. Reggie Jackson before his decline (through 1982) had a 149 OPS+-19 points higher than Clemente's rather than 9. Clemente was a better fielder, but Reggie was good. Reggie was faster and a better baserunner. How the hell is Clemente better? Clemente also did worse in MVP voting in his time-Reggie has 3.28 MVP vote shares to Clemente's 2.80. The contemporary observers were more impressed with Reggie Jackson than Roberto Clemente, if you like to use those types of things (I don't, but I know we have many who do).

I agree with just about everything in this post.
I enjoyed watching Clemente play....but he is one of the most overrated players I can think, in particular his defense. Plus, he was an out maker extrodinaire...a shame with Stargell and other power guys up behind him.
I agree that Jackson is ahead of Roberto...but so are a number of other RF'ers.

[yanks0714]

Well I'd say that Clemente was the best defensive RF of all time, if not him than Al Kaline. Mays was good defensively there's no doubt about that, but I think that his flashiness overrates him...there are some people who think that he was the best defensvie center fielder of all time, which in my mind he is not.

You are entitled to your opinions. But opinions should be based on knowledge and education, both of which are readily availalbe on this board with so many strong posters.

You think Mays was overrated because he was flashy...but turn around and say Clemente was the best defensive RF of all time....and Roberto was as flashy as they come!
Mays' numbers backup up his reputation...Clemente's numbers do NOT back up his reputation.
Sorry, doesn't make sense.

[yanks0714]

Yeah, I'm afraid that Clemente's fielding photos prove his case, Chris. These 4 photos are not isolated. I could have posted many more, but I didn't want to overstate his case. I saw him field and you didn't, so how in hell can you debate his fielding with me? You aren't qualified.

One photo is worth a thousand words. And I was only defending his fielding this time around.

Unfortunately, Bill, I'm around your age (just turned 54 on 11/29) and I DID see Clemete field and I CAN debate it with you.

And I think Chris is right. Clemente's defense is overrated. And those photos do not prove any case.

In your photos, is it at all possible that Roberto made those difficult catches because he was out of position in the first place? Maybe he didn't get the jump he should have? Maybe well should have played the ball safely rather than try to look great? How many 'Roberto style' catches did contemps Aaron, Kaline, Callison, Frank Robinson have to make? They didn't. They played the hitters based on game circumstances and made easier catches that Roberto had to make acrobatic efforts for? They also played the percentages holding a batter to one base.

Another thing, Roberto made a lot of errors and misplayed a number of those great non-catches.....where are the photos are those? There are no thousand words for them, Bill, because they aren't posted.

We see many photos of Willie Mays' catch of Vic Wertz in the '54 WS, right? But we know Willie made some errors but we never see those photos.

There is documentation of former Pirate players criticizing Clemente's defense. And whenever a coach or teammate tried to point out his problems Clemente sulked and felt they were out to get him.

[yanks0714]

The only weakness I saw in Roberto's outfielding might have been a slight lack of speed, which decreased his range. Which might have accounted for him not being a center fielder. That and Bill Virdon being a great ball hawk.

Then you need to read up more. I have hundreds of baseball books in my library. I can't remember which ones I read such accounts by ex-teammates criticizing his fielding and throwing. I don't catalog what I read.

Do you honestly think that of all of Roberto's running, tumbling, sliding, acrobatic catches were the mark of a great defensive player? What about those plays he didn't make when he was running, tumbling, sliding, being acrobatic? Were they also the result of being a great defensive player?

Clemente's fielding numbers don't back him up as a great fielder. Please don't be blinded by the flash that enhanced a reputation but that masked a good but not great fielder.

[538280]

Yeah, I'm afraid that Clemente's fielding photos prove his case, Chris. These 4 photos are not isolated. I could have posted many more, but I didn't want to overstate his case. I saw him field and you didn't, so how in hell can you debate his fielding with me? You aren't qualified.

Photos are fun to look at but cannot prove any case, Bill, unless you could find a shot of Clemente doing everything he ever did on a ballfield. I could easily take pictures of three instances in which Manny Ramirez made a great throw or a great catch, would that prove that he is a great fielder? Of course it would not. It would show that he made three good plays, but it does not prove he is good all the time.

I did not see Clemente play, but I have heard numerous comments about his fielding, and the statistics I have make me question it very much. I have heard what impact his arm had on the game, and am pretty close to 100% sure that is an example of defensive skill being exaggerated in its value to the team.

One photo is worth a thousand words. And I was only defending his fielding this time around. So, why are you sneaking in his all-around case? And furthermore, who in the hell mentioned Reggie Jackson??? You are a sneaky little rapscallion. Can't take our eyes off of you without you trying to debate your favorites again!

I made my post mention more than just that, just because I was in a mood to talk a little more about Clemente and how he compares with Reggie Jackson. I just felt like writing a little about it, nothing big.

[Bill Burgess]

Yes, I do. A Willie Mays thread would be interesting but may get hijacked by Cobb and mantle comps too much.
Besides I enjoy reading your posts supporting Cobb. :)
Thanks, Yanks. I'm getting in the mood to create some stuff. I have a few players who never had a thread yet, and I'm getting ready. You'll soon see.

[Bill Burgess]

Ok thanks-I think I remember Rigney saying something like that once, but not Willie. It was something along the lines that Willie made the hard catches look easy and the easy ones looked hard in comparison.
If you remember please let me know
Thanks
Might have been Home Run Derby, but maybe not. 40 years is a long while to keep all the details clear.

[DoubleX]

Amongst CFs I have:

1.) Ty Cobb
2.) Joe DiMaggio
3.) Mickey Mantle
4.) Tris Speaker
5.) Willie Mays

For all time players I have Speaker 10th and Mays 13th although I should really have him either 11th or 12th

How can you have Mays behind Speaker but not DiMaggio and Mantle? I have them ordered as:

1) Willie Mays
2) Ty Cobb
3) Mickey Mantle
4) Tris Speaker
5) Joe DiMaggio

I also sometimes flip-flop between Speaker and DiMaggio.

Generally I have Mays ranked 2nd among all position players and on some days, I do consider him 1st. Speaker I usually have around 11 or 12, but I have had him as low as 14 on occasion.

[538280]

Just bringing these threads up-posts made earlier today are at the beginning of the thread.

[Chisox]

See the thing is about all of this some how Mantle's Yankees were able to beat the NL's best team seven out of twelve times in the WS
A 1 game majority, whoopie. If two series, like '52, '56, '62 had gone the other way, different story. Had Mac hit it a few inches to either side, the G'men win and it's 6-6. Sounds pretty even to me.
, and they [the Yankees] went just about every year
And that doesn't tell you something about the balance of power within the league?


Also Mays' Giants durring the time of the NL's "dominace" always played bridesmaid and finished 2nd in the NL, and when they went to the WS they went 1-3 due in large part to Mays' god awful play, execpt for the time that they won where he was average at best. And what does Mantle playing with a team of HOFers and near HOFers compared to Mays' teams (good, but not as good) have to do with anything?

Also the next best player in the AL was Al Kaline, and he wasn't even half the player that Mantle was (check my sig quote), so the LQ differnce between Mays and Mantle is a farce.
Again, doesn't that tell you something about the DEPTH of the league? Actually the second best player in the AL during Mantle's prime might have been Williams, who wasn't playing truly full seasons anymore. And Kaline was better than half of Mantle.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Again, where on this forum is that happening, how do you think I am overrating him because of his flashiness? That is EXACTLY the kind of thing I urge people to totally ignore. Remember what I said about Joe DiMaggio? What is aesthetically impressive is not necessarily what wins games, I totally understand that. Willie Mays was extremely impressive aesthetically, but he was just as impressive in what he did for his team.

I don't think Mays is the best defensive CFer either. I would say it is Speaker, but Mays may very well be #2.

Yeeeeah BUT, DiMaggio's gracefulness made everything look easy, as well at the plate DiMaggio hardly ever Ked drove in a lot of runs and created alot of runs aswell as went 9-1 in the WS. I would say that Mays is flashier than DiMaggio. I still think that Mays was a very very very great player, but out of the I don't know how many players who played the game I think he barely cracks my top ten.

As far as Mays being #2 I'm not even sure that he's top five. We've been able to see a pretty good crop in Edmonds, Aundrew, and Torii.

[ChrisLDuncan]

How can you have Mays behind Speaker but not DiMaggio and Mantle? I have them ordered as:

1) Willie Mays
2) Ty Cobb
3) Mickey Mantle
4) Tris Speaker
5) Joe DiMaggio

I also sometimes flip-flop between Speaker and DiMaggio.

Generally I have Mays ranked 2nd among all position players and on some days, I do consider him 1st. Speaker I usually have around 11 or 12, but I have had him as low as 14 on occasion.

Mantle due to his prime, and I just feel in my gut that Joe D was a better player than Mickey. So since I have Mickey ahead of Speaker and Mays, I have DiMaggio ahead of them aswell. Also see my Mantle v. Mays thread, as to why I have Mantle so far ahead of Mays.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well most people misinterpret my opinion on the strength of the NL, I am by no means saying that the AL was better HOWEVER:

I am saying that the gap wasn't as wide as people think, I think that the gap between the NL and AL is bigger now than it was than. I think that if the AL win the WS as often as it did, than the AL can't be all that bad

[ChrisLDuncan]

And what does Mantle playing with a team of HOFers and near HOFers compared to Mays' teams (good, but not as good) have to do with anything?


Again, doesn't that tell you something about the DEPTH of the league? Actually the second best player in the AL during Mantle's prime might have been Williams, who wasn't playing truly full seasons anymore. And Kaline was better than half of Mantle.

Mays' second fiddle was McCovey a HoFer

Mantle's was Marris (should be in)

Mays' Giants' best pitcher: Juan Marichal

Mantle's Yankees' best pitcher: Whitey Ford
I'd have to give the edge to Ford based on his post season performances, but it ain't all that big.

Also no one was good as half of Mickey Mantle, dude was playing with one leg , bone diease (osteomyelitis that almost ended his athletic career mind you), and he was an alcholic (I'm not judging him)...all of this and he still mopped the floor with everyplayer in baseball.

[mwiggins]

Yeeeeah BUT, DiMaggio's gracefulness made everything look easy, as well at the plate DiMaggio hardly ever Ked drove in a lot of runs and created alot of runs aswell as went 9-1 in the WS. I would say that Mays is flashier than DiMaggio. I still think that Mays was a very very very great player, but out of the I don't know how many players who played the game I think he barely cracks my top ten.

As far as Mays being #2 I'm not even sure that he's top five. We've been able to see a pretty good crop in Edmonds, Aundrew, and Torii.


His TEAM went 9-1 in the WS. This is baseball we're talking about. Even the best player of all-time can't impact his team winning a title like Jordan could.

Btw, Joe D's WS line was .271/.338/.422. With only 8 HR's & 30 RBI in 199 AB's. He wasn't a great WS performer, by any means.

Mickey was MUCH better than DiMaggio in the WS. .257/.374/.535 with 18 HR's and 40 RBI in 230 AB's.

[ChrisLDuncan]

His TEAM went 9-1 in the WS. This is baseball we're talking about. Even the best player of all-time can't impact his team winning a title like Jordan could.

Btw, Joe D's WS line was .271/.338/.422. With only 8 HR's & 30 RBI in 199 AB's. He wasn't a great WS performer, by any means.

Mickey was MUCH better than DiMaggio in the WS. .257/.374/.535 with 18 HR's and 40 RBI in 230 AB's.

Well Joe D is no MJ, no doubt about that. Joe D many not have been great but he's better than Mays, Williams, and Musial were by a mile.

[mwiggins]

Mays' second fiddle was McCovey a HoFer

Mantle's was Marris (should be in)

Mays' Giants' best pitcher: Juan Marichal

Mantle's Yankees' best pitcher: Whitey Ford
I'd have to give the edge to Ford based on his post season performances, but it ain't all that big.

Also no one was good as half of Mickey Mantle, dude was playing with one leg , bone diease (osteomyelitis that almost ended his athletic career mind you), and he was an alcholic (I'm not judging him)...all of this and he still mopped the floor with everyplayer in baseball.

I think you forgot about Yogi...

If you think Mantle was that good (he was), then why does he get stuck below DiMaggio? It's just not close. Other than his problems you mentioned above, Mantle was the best baseball player who ever lived. DiMaggio was a great player (I have him 14th overall), but he wasn't even the best player of his era.

[ChrisLDuncan]

If you think Mantle was that good (he was), then why does he get stuck below DiMaggio? It's just not close. Other than his problems you mentioned above, Mantle was the best baseball player who ever lived. DiMaggio was a great player (I have him 14th overall), but he wasn't even the best player of his era.

I would say that Joe was no worse than the second best PLAYER of his ERA, he played fine defense in center field where as Ted Williams played poor defense in LF at Fenway. Joe D also had a short career. Why do I think that Joe D was better? Well Mickey's own admission, and it's just a gut feeling...I can't defend it at all.

Plus Yogi played "second fiddle" to no one. Marris was the guy that it was Marris and Mantle...Yogi was amazing though

[mwiggins]

Well Joe D is no MJ, no doubt about that. Joe D many not have been great but he's better than Mays, Williams, and Musial were by a mile.

He wasn't that much better than Musial, but I'll agree that he was the best postseason performer of that group. But he was no Mantle or Gehrig or Munson or Jackson when it comes to Yankee's WS greats. Heck, he didn't even match up to Yogi in the postseason. For someone who puts as much stock as you seem to in postseason play, seems hard to believe you'd be that down on Mantle.

[mwiggins]

I would say that Joe was no worse than the second best PLAYER of his ERA, he played fine defense in center field where as Ted Williams played poor defense in LF at Fenway. Joe D also had a short career. Why do I think that Joe D was better? Well Mickey's own admission, and it's just a gut feeling...I can't defend it at all.

Plus Yogi played "second fiddle" to no one. Marris was the guy that it was Marris and Mantle...Yogi was amazing though

It was Marris/Mantle in his later years, but Yogi was the man until '56. Marris didn't even join the team until halfway through Mantle's career. Yogi was the second best player on the team thoughout most of Mantle's best years.

Mick's not going to say he's better than DiMaggio. How stupid would he have to be to proclaim he thought he was better than a Yankee legend. He's not A-Rod.;)

[Bill Burgess]

It was Marris/Mantle in his later years, but Yogi was the man until '56. Marris didn't even join the team until halfway through Mantle's career. Yogi was the second best player on the team though out most of Mantle's best years.

Mick's not going to say he's better than DiMaggio. How stupid would he have to be to proclaim he thought he was better than a Yankee legend. He's not A-Rod.;)
If the Mick had expressed an opinion that he believed he was better than DiMag, the NY press corps and the Yankee faithful would have made him pay a price for his poor judgment, as well as his egotism, bad taste and insecurity. Would have been real dumb.

[538280]

If the Mick had expressed an opinion that he believed he was better than DiMag, the NY press corps and the Yankee faithful would have made him pay a price for his poor judgment, as well as his egotism, bad taste and insecurity. Would have been real dumb.

It would have been poor judgement on his part if Mantle really believed that DiMaggio was better than him. Aesthetics aside, Mickey Mantle did a lot more for his teams than Joe DiMaggio did. That is just about indisputable IMO. DiMaggio was a player who was 1. A lot more visually impressive than impressive in terms of what he did for the team, and 2. Put up statistically rare events, such as very few Ks and the hit streak, which are impressive to do and rare, but contribute little actual value to the team.

[Bill Burgess]

It would have been poor judgment on his part if Mantle really believed that DiMaggio was better than him. Aesthetics aside, Mickey Mantle did a lot more for his teams than Joe DiMaggio did. That is just about indisputable IMO. DiMaggio was a player who was 1. A lot more visually impressive than impressive in terms of what he did for the team, and 2. Put up statistically rare events, such as very few Ks and the hit streak, which are impressive to do and rare, but contribute little actual value to the team.
Whenever a good player joins a team, it is considered 'good form', to show proper deference to that team's prior stars. Few have shown the bad taste to come in, shoot off their mouths, and create trouble in the clubhouse.

Can anyone spell - R-e-g-g-i-e.

It not a matter of whether or not you're good. The fans will see that soon enough. It's called good manners, judgment, good taste, a nice sense of PR. To flaunt it is to look for problems one doesn't need.

[538280]

Whenever a good player joins a team, it is considered 'good form', to show proper deference to that team's prior stars. Few have shown the bad taste to come in, shoot off their mouths, and create trouble in the clubhouse.

Can anyone spell - R-e-g-g-i-e.

It not a matter of whether or not you're good. The fans will see that soon enough. It's called good manners, judgment, good taste, a nice sense of PR. To flaunt it is to look for problems one doesn't need.

Okay, I agree with this. I was not saying that Mantle should have spouted off on how much better he was than DiMaggio, just that he really was MUCH better than DiMaggio.

And as far as Reggie, I'm pretty sure it's considered in bad taste to shun away your new teammates, and make snide racial comments towards them. Reggie should not have done what he did, but there's blame on the other side as well.

[Bill Burgess]

Okay, I agree with this. I was not saying that Mantle should have spouted off on how much better he was than DiMaggio, just that he really was MUCH better than DiMaggio.

And as far as Reggie, I'm pretty sure it's considered in bad taste to shun away your new teammates, and make snide racial comments towards them. Reggie should not have done what he did, but there's blame on the other side as well.
Personally, I don't mind Reggie's personality at all. I liked him. But for him to announce, "I'm the straw that stirs the martini. I brought the party with me." was just unnecessary. Set Billy against him for no good reason. Made him look like a prima donna with a swelled head.

Just didn't make a lot of sense. If someone does you wrong, the best policy is to ignore it, stress your willingness to work with them, and do your job as best you can. To respond verbally is often the worst thing one could do. Plays into the hands of those who would undermine you. Not a well-thought out career strategy at all.

Bill

[538280]

Personally, Bill, I think Reggie was intelligent with his attitude with the press. Perhaps not that particular quote, but if Reggie had just gone about his business, and was a quiet (but still great) player, I dobut he would have near the money and fame he does today. In fact, like some players from that era, he may even still have to work today. He probably wouldn't have made as much money as he did either. He certainly wouldn't be sponsoring products, appearing on TV and movies, and things like that like he occasionally does today. His ego has resulted in a more enjoyable post career for him. I'd say not such a bad strategy.

And BTW, here is just a fun little except from Reggie's autobiography, I really enjoy it:

“How I Helped Billy Keep His Job and Other Interesting Tales”
from Reggie
by Reggie Jackson

Editor’s Note: Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson are having a meeting with the New York Yankees general manager, Gabe Paul, because of an altercation they had the previous Saturday in the dugout at Fenway Park. Billy thought Reggie dogged on a bal in the outfield, so he immediately benched him. When Reggie got back to the dugout, Billy screamed at him and wanted to fight. Luckily, both Reggie and Billy were held back, so they didn’t throw any punches. The story starts as Reggie gets off the elevator and into Gabe’s suite.

The meeting was at nine o’clock. When I got off the elevator at Gabe’s floor, Billy was standing there. He was wearing a tan suit and a white shirt without a tie. He looked terrible, like he’d been up all night.

He looked at me.

I looked at him.

Neither on of us said a word to each other. I walked down the hall toward Gabe’s suite with Billy a couple of steps behind me. The walk seemed about as long as the Boston Marathon.

Billy did most of the talking for the first ten minutes. I just sat there and listened. The monologue was a little incoherent at times. I wondered where the hell he was coming from. I know we’d both had a tough night, but this guy was really off the wall. In the middle of his rambling, though, he made a statement that got right to the heart of his position on Reggie Jackson.

“We won without him last year,” he said to Gabe as though it were only the two of them in the room. “We can win without him this season.”

Then he gave his version of the Rice play (the play Reggie was benched for) from Saturday’s game.

“He didn’t hustle, Gabe. He was trying to show me up. That’s what he does with the team, tries to show me up. The only thing I could do was show him up.”

It was then my turn to talk. I said to Gabe, “I did not loaf on that ball.”

Even I was getting exhausted hearing my own voice say those words.

I guess Billy must have been tired of hearing it, too. Because he snapped out again and jumped up out of his chair. Billy’s boiling point was obviously room temperature at that moment.

“You’re a f****** liar!”he yelled at me. “Get up, boy. I’m going to kick the s*** out of you right here!”

I didn’t move. We had already played this scene once, the afternoon before. I didn’t think we had to rehearse it again. I stayed where I was and looked over at Gabe. I was trembling with rage.

“Hey, Gabe,” I said calmly, “you’re a smart guy. Why don’t you tell me what you think he meant when he said ‘Get up, boy’?” You expect me to understand something like that? You expect me to deal with something like that? You tell me what to do, okay, Gabe? I’m all ears.”

Billy was still strutting around the room. He headed for the door to leave. Gabe firmly told him to sit down.

“’Boy’ is just an expression,” Billy said. “I’m from the South. I live in Arlington, Texas. It’s just something that’s said.”

I had to stop myself from smiling. Billy had grown up in Berkeley, grown up poor. But I guess if you grew up in Berkeley and played most of your career in New York, then managed in Detroit and Minnesota, then moved to Texas, it was perfectly acceptable in the year 1977 to call a black man “boy.”
I said, “Really now, Gabe. How do you feel about all of this?”

Gabe, of course, was being Gabe. When he wasn’t telling you to look at the whole donut, he had other Paulisms at the ready. If you went up to Gabe and said, “Do you think it will stop raining?” he had a standard answer.

“Always does.”
Now he looked at me and said, “Well, Reggie, I just don’t know.”

Perfect.

Absolutely perfect. At least Gabe was staying in character.

I had come to the meeting with good intentions. But my good intentions were wearing off quickly. I had gone to Gabe’s suite ready to tell both of them that I was going to play out the year, do whatever it took to win, and now Billy wanted to fight again.

Old Gabe? He, well, he just didn’t know.

“What do you guys think I am?” I said to Gabe and Billy. “Gabe, we’ve gone over this a thousand time already. George Steinbrenner, your boss, told me that if at any point I didn’t want to be a Yankee, then I didn’t have to be a damn Yankee. Listen, the uniform is great to wear. The Yankees are Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford and Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio. But what you both don’t seem to understand is that it’s the guys who wear the uniform who make the Yankees. It isn’t the other way around. This uniform didn’t make Reggie Jackson. I appreciate that I got to wear it once in my life just to see what it feels like. But you know I don’t want to be in it once this season is over. I don’t want to be a Yankee, I don’t want to be in New York, I really don’t want to play for a man like this.”

I pointed to Billy when I said the last part.

“I actually came here to try and make peace with Billy,” I continued. “Maybe that’s impossible. What is also impossible is for me to play baseball the way I can with him treating me the way he does, trying to show me up, trying to break me down. I just want you to know where I am. I’m not going to demand anything. I know you’re not going to send me anywhere because you would have done that already. I assume Billy is going to stay. I’m going to stay. There’s not a damn I can do about it. The only recourse I could have, as a man, is to bust my ass for Billy regardless of what he tries to do to me, and take it from there. And that’s all I have to say.”

We all just sat there. Billy looked like he was sick.

Gabe finally said, “I’ll remember everything you said, Reggie. I’m going to talk to George, explain the way you feel, the way Billy feels. Just remember: There’s no substitute for talent. Things will work out somehow.”

I was pretty sure I’d heard that before.

I got up and walked toward the door. I didn’t shake anybody’s hand. I just left Gabe and Billy sitting where they were. As I opened the door, Gabe had one last thing to say.

“Don’t look at the hole in the donut, Reggie. Look at the whole donut.”

Honest to God.

[Chisox]

Mays' second fiddle was McCovey a HoFer
AFTER Mays' peak. Mays debuted in '51 and became a permanent fixture in '54 (MVP) after spending time in Korea. McCovey debuted in '59, had a really good '62 in only 93 games, and became a permanent fixture in '63, meaning. Marichal's first season was '60 and first full season of note was '62. Mac was Mac for the last two of the Yankee's WS of the span, which the NL won without an appearance by the Giants. Marichal's ERA+ in '62 was 113 and 132 in '62, meaning he contributed as much as McCovey towards any WS with the Yank's--not much. Mac hit .200 with a .250OBP and 1HR for his only R and RBI and Marichal pitched a grand total of 4 IP in the '62 series. Lots of help.

Mantle's was Marris (should be in)
No, Berra was, and no, Maris should not be. You may as well include Howard, Skowran, Rizzuto, and Woodling to that list along with Lopat Raschi, and Reynolds, since they contributed more than either Mac or Juan during the '50s and early '60s.


Mays' Giants' best pitcher: Juan Marichal
Their best pitcher of the period in question was Antonelli.

Mantle's Yankees' best pitcher: Whitey Ford
I'd have to give the edge to Ford based on his post season performances, but it ain't all that big. Marichal is quite a bit better than Ford, but you're comparing someone who was done at '65 to someone who didn't get started until '63.


Also no one was good as half of Mickey Mantle, dude was playing with one leg , bone diease (osteomyelitis that almost ended his athletic career mind you), and he was an alcholic (I'm not judging him)...all of this and he still mopped the floor with everyplayer in baseball.
I don't care what he was playing with. I guess Ted Williams (who from 1951-1960 led everyone with a 1.098OPS, .622 Slug, and .476OBP and .336BA), Yogi Berra (who led the AL along with Mantle with 935RBI from '51-60 playing catcher), and Al Kaline (who was 1 HR short from the first AL ever with 400HR and 3000H) were bums compared to a guy who was second with a .990OPS, 4th with a .568Slug (behind Mays' .585 and Snider's .569), second in OBP with .422, and 7th in BA with .307 (.00009 ahead of Minoso and behind Musial's .325, Aaron's .318, Mays' .317, Kuenn's .313, and Ashburn's .312) over the course of the same era ('51-'60.)

[ChrisLDuncan]

I don't care what he was playing with. I guess Ted Williams (who from 1951-1960 led everyone with a 1.098OPS, .622 Slug, and .476OBP and .336BA), Yogi Berra (who led the AL along with Mantle with 935RBI from '51-60 playing catcher), and Al Kaline (who was 1 HR short from the first AL ever with 400HR and 3000H) were bums compared to a guy who was second with a .990OPS, 4th with a .568Slug (behind Mays' .585 and Snider's .569), second in OBP with .422, and 7th in BA with .307 (.00009 ahead of Minoso and behind Musial's .325, Aaron's .318, Mays' .317, Kuenn's .313, and Ashburn's .312) over the course of the same era ('51-'60.)

Ummm...yes they were bums compared to the Mick. Especially Kaline, even HE knew it...I don't see how Kaline can even hold Mantle's jock. You're using counting stats, to prove your point...which is fine for longevity but you're forgeting that Mantle still has 536 HRs and is 19th on the all time OBP list here's the guys ahead of him:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OBP_career.shtml

Also a lot of those guys played in an ERA of offensive explosion so you have to take their numbers with a grain assualt.

BA is the most overrated stat in baseball okay so Tony Gwynn has like a .338 BA so does that mean that he's a better hitter than Mantle who has a career .298? Was Rod Carew a better hitter than Joe Morgan because his BA was demonstrably higher?

[Edgartohof]

Ummm...yes they were bums compared to the Mick.

Yeah, everyone else is a bum...sure.

If everyone else was only HALF as good as Mantle, then they'd be putting up numbers like:

.149/.211/.279/.489 Now does that look like what Kaline did? Most players may not have been up to par with Mantle, but they weren't "bums" by any means.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yeah, everyone else is a bum...sure.

If everyone else was only HALF as good as Mantle, then they'd be putting up numbers like:

.149/.211/.279/.489 Now does that look like what Kaline did? Most players may not have been up to par with Mantle, but they weren't "bums" by any means.

Well we never really did get to see Mickey play totally healthy, he was always down a leg too...keep that in consideration.

[Edgartohof]

Well we never really did get to see Mickey play totally healthy, he was always down a leg too...keep that in consideration.

I've heard of war credit and all, but I've never heard of leg credit.

On one hand it's great to wonder what we could have seen had he not been injured so much, in which case, I would have him on top, but he WAS injured. It wasn't something imposed on him by someone else (war service, racial segregation), it was something that happened.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I've heard of war credit and all, but I've never heard of leg credit.

On one hand it's great to wonder what we could have seen had he not been injured so much, in which case, I would have him on top, but he WAS injured. It wasn't something imposed on him by someone else (war service, racial segregation), it was something that happened.

My point is that Mickey Mantle always played around to about 70% of his ability.

[Murderers Row]

I think it's a wash. The fact that Mays played in an intergrated league gives him the nod.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I think it's a wash. The fact that Mays played in an intergrated league gives him the nod.

I disagree but I think that's fair.

[Murderers Row]

Mays has more batting runs, and played in an intergrated league. That's enough to make up the defensive gap. Also, I think when using positional adjustments, offense from a CF from Mays times is more valuable than from Speakers time. I could bhe wrong because I don't have my data in front of me.

[Edgartohof]

My point is that Mickey Mantle always played around to about 70% of his ability.

But are you saying that he should receive some sort of credit for him being hurt?

[538280]

offense from a CF from Mays times is more valuable than from Speakers time. I could bhe wrong because I don't have my data in front of me.

That is correct, that offense was lower from CF in Mays' time though I'm not totally sure I should adjust my positional adjustments. This is one of my favorite charts, I found it posted on BBTF, it shows offensive performance relative to league by each position by decade. X is catcher:

1870's ..................LC..321S.XR.....................
1880'S 1.............L.C......!R3...2.S.........X........
1890'S ........L...RC1........!...3..2S.......X..........
1900'S ........L.R.C...1......!.2...3.S...............X..
1910'S .........CR...L.1......!..23.........S.....X......
1920'S ........RL1.C..........!...2.......3.X.....S......
1930'S ..1.....R...L.....C....!.......3..2X.S............
1940'S ......L...R.1.C........!.3.........2XS............
1950'S ........L.1...RC.....3.!.......X...2...S..........
1960'S ......1R..L...C......3.!...........X...2.S........
1970'S ......1...RL....C....3.!.......X.....2...........S
1980'S ........1...RL.....3C..!........X2.......S........
1990'S ......1.....R...L.....3C.......2.X.....S..........

.Mean. ........1.L.R.C........!.3.....2...X.S............

CF was actually the highest offensive position in the 1910s. An interesting thing is that CF seems to have gone down the defensive spectrum over the years, there has started to be less offense. If you think about it that is obvious though, before Mays there were a ton of great hitting CF, Mantle, DiMaggio, Speaker, Cobb. After Mays there have been none even close to that. My guess is that as there have been more flyballs hit managers have been more willing to sacrifice the bat for the glove in CF, and thus there has been less offense from the position.

[Murderers Row]

That is correct, that offense was lower from CF in Mays' time though I'm not totally sure I should adjust my positional adjustments. This is one of my favorite charts, I found it posted on BBTF, it shows offensive performance relative to league by each position by decade. X is catcher:

1870's ..................LC..321S.XR.....................
1880'S 1.............L.C......!R3...2.S.........X........
1890'S ........L...RC1........!...3..2S.......X..........
1900'S ........L.R.C...1......!.2...3.S...............X..
1910'S .........CR...L.1......!..23.........S.....X......
1920'S ........RL1.C..........!...2.......3.X.....S......
1930'S ..1.....R...L.....C....!.......3..2X.S............
1940'S ......L...R.1.C........!.3.........2XS............
1950'S ........L.1...RC.....3.!.......X...2...S..........
1960'S ......1R..L...C......3.!...........X...2.S........
1970'S ......1...RL....C....3.!.......X.....2...........S
1980'S ........1...RL.....3C..!........X2.......S........
1990'S ......1.....R...L.....3C.......2.X.....S..........

.Mean. ........1.L.R.C........!.3.....2...X.S............

CF was actually the highest offensive position in the 1910s. An interesting thing is that CF seems to have gone down the defensive spectrum over the years, there has started to be less offense. If you think about it that is obvious though, before Mays there were a ton of great hitting CF, Mantle, DiMaggio, Speaker, Cobb. After Mays there have been none even close to that. My guess is that as there have been more flyballs hit managers have been more willing to sacrifice the bat for the glove in CF, and thus there has been less offense from the position.

That is a cool chart, but I use the one from the lastest edition of Total baseball. Unfortuantely, I lost it because I cut it out for easy access. :ughh

[ChrisLDuncan]

But are you saying that he should receive some sort of credit for him being hurt?

Not at all, just that his raw ability was the best ever...that's the point that I am trying to make.

[Bill Burgess]

He said it at the HR Derby? I don't even think they had HR Derbys back then, but if you watch the ones today you'd know that the contestants always say funny things just to fool around. It's more a carnival type attraction or a TV show than baseball. I wouldn't believe anything much of what anyone says at an HR derby.
Gee, Chris. You say the funniest things.

Mark Scott
Born: February 21, 1915, Illinois
Died: July 13, 1960 , Burbank, CA, age 45

Announcer, actor; Voice of Holywood Stars, Cincinnati Reds Announcer, 1956, Host/Narator of Home Run Derby (1959 - July, 1960, death), 16 films,

[four tool]

Mays because of LQ, but it's real close even with LQ adjustments, especially considering Mantle and his LQ adjustments. My top CFs would be Cobb, Mantle, Mays and Spoke., and 2, 3 and 4 are very close.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Mays because of LQ, but it's real close even with LQ adjustments, especially considering Mantle and his LQ adjustments. My top CFs would be Cobb, Mantle, Mays and Spoke., and 2, 3 and 4 are very close.

That's a fair opinion, I guess the point with my "CF V. Willie Mays" threads is that I don't even thing that Mays was the best CF of all time, it's questionable if he's top three. So how can be be the best PLAYER ever.

[four tool]

Agreed that Mays is not the best player of all time.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Who do you have higher?

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I was thinking Mays, but Speaker edges Mays, barely in OBJ, Mod Obj, R_WAA, WARP, and WARP 2.

I think I'll switch Speaker to #5, and Mays #6.

[Edgartohof]

Umm....Mays

Speaker and Mays defensively are the cream of the crop. Speaker may have a slight edge here, but not much of one, so I'd call that one a push.

Mays has a 156 career OPS+, while Speaker has a 158 OPS+. But Mays also has around 600 more AB's than Speaker, and that doesn't include the fact that Mays missed nearly 2 seasons to the war. So if you give back those seasons to Mays, he probably raises his OPS+ AND he would have even more playing time than Speaker.

And then League quality comes into play. Mays played in the strongest league, while Speaker...did not.

Speaker was great, he was nearly the epitome of a great ballplayer, but Mays was just a little bit better I think. I think they were very similar players actually, except that Mays had more HR power and Speaker hit for better average. Both of which were partially due to the differences in the times which they played.

Just for the record, Speaker is going to be crushed - so be ready for it.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Thanks for the preparation. But every metric has Speaker ahead.

[Edgartohof]

Thanks for the preparation. But every metric has Speaker ahead.

Then maybe the metrics are wrong...

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

That's my pudding, and here's your proof.

http://members.cox.net/~harlowk22/atgwsobj.html

[ChrisLDuncan]

It's such a toss up it isn't even funny...Mays played in a stronger league.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Stronger League doesn't mean better player...

[ChrisLDuncan]

Stronger League doesn't mean better player...

Well when the players are this close it may be the tipping point either player is an acceptable answer

[Erik Bedard]

When the stats are this close, you go to the contemporary opinions, which tip the scales in Mays' favor. Nearly everyone who saw him play thought he was the greatest they'd ever seen.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I'd put Aaron over Mays.

[Erik Bedard]

I wouldn't.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Aaron played in nearly 400 more games than Mays, and has an OPS+ ONE point lower than Mays.

[Erik Bedard]

....and......

Mays was unquestionably one of the three greatest defensive CFers ever, and while Aaron was decent as a corner OF, he was not in Mays' league. While Aaron could run, Mays could run better. Everything Aaron could do, Mays could do just as well if not better. There isn't really much of a competition.

[leecemark]

--Aaron may have been a slighty better hitter than Mays. Mays was a much better defender and baserunner (not that Hank wasn't good in those areas, Mays was just historically great). That puts Willie clearly over Aaron IMO - and I probably rank Aaron as high or higher than anyone around here.

[Edgartohof]

Aaron played in nearly 400 more games than Mays, and has an OPS+ ONE point lower than Mays.

And Mays missed 2 years to war, and was a better defensive outfielder, who played Centerfield, and was also a very dangerous baserunner and basestealer. What does that all add up to? Mays is better (not by much mind you, but he is).

[Edgartohof]

It's already 9-0 in favor of Mays

It would be 9-1, but LKFighter hasn't voted yet.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I have Aaron #4, Mays #5.

[Erik Bedard]

I have Aaron #8 and Mays #3.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Reasonable.

WARP2

Mays 203.7
Aaron 207.8

WARP3

Mays 207.1
Aaron 210.7

[Erik Bedard]

But when you give Mays war credit, he shoots right past Aaron.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I don't give war credit, because you don't know what could have happened if one didn't go to war.

[Erik Bedard]

But one can interpolate. For example, if you look at Ted Williams' stats before and after the wars he fought in, he basically picked up right where he left off. Therefore, it is not by any means a reach to interpolate that he would have continued at the same rate in the seasons he missed.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

That's Ted Williams. Is Willie Mays Ted Williams? Theodore Samuel Williams is Theodore Samuel Williams, and Willie Howard Mays Jr. is Willie Howard Mays Jr.

Mays could have been injured and ended his career for all you know.

[Edgartohof]

But one can interpolate. For example, if you look at Ted Williams' stats before and after the wars he fought in, he basically picked up right where he left off. Therefore, it is not by any means a reach to interpolate that he would have continued at the same rate in the seasons he missed.

And we give the credit not because they just missed the time, but that they missed it doing service for their country.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I respect anyone who serves for our country, but, why don't we give credit due to injury, or other stuff like that?

God Bless Our Troops, but I don't give war credit.

[leecemark]

--An injury or illness is something that happened to that particular player. It is part of his record of achievement. Missing time due to war is more a condition of the game. Mays or Williams or Feller or whoever were certainly capable of playing good ball in the years they missed and deserve some credit for that. An injured player was NOT capable of playing (or in some cases not playing very well) and doesn't derserve credit for what they could not do.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

Anything could have happened to Mays, but it didn't. I hate war credit, because you don't know what could have happened during those seasons. And, Mays could have retired sooner.

[leecemark]

--He played 20 years after his military service without ever suffering a serious injury. Not much reason to believe he would have had one in those 2 seasons. Can't see why he would have retired sooner either. I wish he had retired at least 1 year sooner though. 1973 was not a season he needed added to his resume.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I can understand Mays over Aaron, but I don't give war credit, and Aaron had slightly more longevity.

[ChrisLDuncan]

When the stats are this close, you go to the contemporary opinions, which tip the scales in Mays' favor. Nearly everyone who saw him play thought he was the greatest they'd ever seen.

You know they said the same thing about DiMaggio...Speaker had to compete with Cobb too, I think that's not the best idea of doing things. Although I do respect witness opinion.

[Skin & Bones]

Thanks for the preparation. But every metric has Speaker ahead.

Not true at all.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

The metrics at a web page I got, yes.

[Paul McCartney]

Okay Speaker is not greater than Mays. But as we are on the topic of metrics showing Willie lower than where people rank him (top 3 by most, number 1 by many) I don't believe anything statistical really indicates him to be amongst the couple best players of all-time (top 5-10 definitely though). It is his unmatched appeal as the epitome of all-around play, grace, "intangibles" if you will that gives him a huge and perhaps unfair boost.

[Skin & Bones]

Okay Speaker is not greater than Mays. But as we are on the topic of metrics showing Willie lower than where people rank him (top 3 by most, number 1 by many) I don't believe anything statistical really indicates him to be amongst the couple best players of all-time (top 5-10 definitely though). It is his unmatched appeal as the epitome of all-around play, grace, "intangibles" if you will that gives him a huge and perhaps unfair boost.

Actually, WARP3 has Mays 4th all-time behind, Bonds, Ruth, and Aaron. And Mays lost years during his prime to serve his country, while Bonds late career success was "allegedly" fueled by PED'S, and Aaron played in more games.

Mays deserves to rank in the top 3 - He should be given credit for dominating arguably the strongest leagues in history, losing years during his prime to serve his country, and still having statistics that rank among the best in history.

[Wee Willie]

Anything could have happened to Mays, but it didn't. I hate war credit, because you don't know what could have happened during those seasons. And, Mays could have retired sooner.

Actually, you do know what could have happened during those seasons. I think it's a mistake to think otherwise. You don't know absolutely what WOULD have happened, but you do know what COULD have happened, and we can establish at least a conservative estimate as to what would likely have happened.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Okay Speaker is not greater than Mays. But as we are on the topic of metrics showing Willie lower than where people rank him (top 3 by most, number 1 by many) I don't believe anything statistical really indicates him to be amongst the couple best players of all-time (top 5-10 definitely though). It is his unmatched appeal as the epitome of all-around play, grace, "intangibles" if you will that gives him a huge and perhaps unfair boost.

My thing with that though is there's a lot of players who have played the game...so to say he isn't one of the two or three best isn't really a slight. Ruth for sure, some will say Cobb, others will say Wagner, I personally say Bonds is up there too, others say Williams because of when he was at the plate it's like he was playing with God Mode on, I also like Mantle because of his freakish peak.

[Edgartohof]

We also know what COULD have happened when they were at war (as it did to many players).