Manny Deal

[SwissRedSoxFan]

My bet Manny will stay in Boston or go to the Dodgers for Loney, Kemp and Broxton.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I feel dealing one of the top five right handed hiters in the history of baseball deserves it's own thread in CE, if the Mods disagree feel free to move this to BoSox forum or back to the Hot Stove thread. This isn't just rumors now chekc this out

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2677627


The Red Sox are aggressively shopping outfielder Manny Ramirez now, according to major league sources, at a time when the slugger's trade value has peaked, and there is a sense among some executives that their trade talks are gaining momentum.

"I wouldn't be shocked if the Red Sox traded him by Saturday," says one big league official.

By Saturday, Boston's negotiations with free agent outfielder J.D. Drew are expected to finish officially with a multiyear agreement. At that point, Boston will be in better position to trade Ramirez, who has driven in more than 100 runs in each of his six years with the Red Sox, and in 11 of the last 12 seasons. Ramirez has been an extraordinary producer of runs for Boston, and an equally extraordinary producer of melodrama. He has asked for trades repeatedly, has often played at something less than full speed, and at the end of the 2006 season, there was some question about whether he made a full effort to play with a sore knee.

Among the teams involved in the conversations:

• The San Francisco Giants, who might have to involve a third team to become a serious player in this market, or perhaps swallow some of Boston's worst contracts, like that of pitcher Matt Clement.

• The San Diego Padres, who can build a deal around reliever Scott Linebrink.

• The Dodgers, who are starved for power hitters, loaded with prospects and could probably offer the best possible package of youngsters, from third baseman Andy LaRoche to pitcher Chad Billingsley to outfielder Matt Kemp. Before the August 31 trade deadline, the Red Sox tried to pry first baseman James Loney from L.A. in return for pitcher David Wells, but the Dodgers refused. The Red Sox may resume their pursuit of Loney and perhaps relief pitcher Jonathan Broxton.

• The Rangers have had talks about Ramirez, but as recently as last week, the Red Sox still preferred to talk about a swap of shortstop Michael Young for Ramirez -- a deal that almost certainly won't happen.

The Orioles have spoken with the Red Sox about Ramirez recently, but their conversations hadn't advanced in recent days. The Indians and Red Sox talked last week, but those conversations are dead; the cost in salary and prospects were simply too high for the Indians. The Angels and Red Sox had talked in the past about a Manny deal, but those conversations have apparently ended.

Ramirez has 10-and-5 rights and can veto any deal, so the team working on a trade involving him would have to negotiate a settlement with Ramirez to get him to accept the swap.

Executives with other teams say that in order to move Ramirez, Boston will have to come to grips with the idea that they will not get back major league talent equal to that of Ramirez; rather, they might have to settle for a deal much like the Gary Sheffield trade the Yankees made early in November, when they got three pitching prospects from Detroit. There are indications now that Boston's trade demands for Ramirez are dropping, to facilitate a deal. "They seem motivated to move him," said an AL official. Ramirez signed an eight-year, $160 million deal with Boston after the 2000 season, and his contract was considered all but untradeable as recently as six months ago because of an annual salary that approaches $20 million; the Red Sox placed him on waivers after the 2003 season, and nobody was willing to even take him for free at that time.

But the recent salary explosion -- Alfonso Soriano's $136 million deal, Carlos Lee's $100 million contract -- has cast Ramirez and his salary in a different light.

If the Red Sox complete a Ramirez trade, there would be an enormous hole in the Boston lineup. But it may be that the Red Sox have other plans in the works if they gain contractual flexibility with a Ramirez deal, and with the addition of Drew and possible addition of Julio Lugo at shortstop, they might feel like they will still have a deep lineup.

A Ramirez trade may also have an enormous impact on No. 3 hitter David Ortiz. "That guy will draw about 200 walks next year without Manny hitting behind him," said one scout. "I don't care who it is who bats fourth instead of Manny -- J.D. Drew, or Wily Mo Pena, whoever -- he won't be as dangerous as Manny was, because Manny can hit good pitching."



I really think since the Red Sox backed off on the asking price the deal won't end up in their favor...however they can upgrade their defense and baserunning with this deal and possibly pick up a legit SS. If they move Coco Crisp to LF and Willy Mo Pena to Center that should help their OF D a lot.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Although signing JD Drew is a bad idea IMO, it makes sense (if you think that Drew will be a replacement for Manny's bat, which I don't) to trade Manny.

If they trade him to the Dodgers for Broxton Loney and Kemp, I think that would be a great deal for both teams.

[EvanAparra]

Although signing JD Drew is a bad idea IMO, it makes sense (if you think that Drew will be a replacement for Manny's bat, which I don't) to trade Manny.

If they trade him to the Dodgers for Broxton Loney and Kemp, I think that would be a great deal for both teams.

If we get Broxton, Loney, and Kemp for Manny -- I'll be dancing til the Cubs win a World Series!

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Does that sound reasonable? For me, I wouldn't give up Manny unless it was a great deal for my team. I wouldn't want it to be a Joe Thornton situation (Boston Bruins fans will know what I mean). Sorry for the hockey reference, but it's poignant.

[wigglestrue]

Bruins got crap for Thornton.
Any deal for Manny will have 2-3 of the best prospects in baseball.

[EvanAparra]

Bruins got crap for Thornton.
Any deal for Manny will have 2-3 of the best prospects in baseball.
Incredibly doubtful. One top prospect, another good one, and maybe a major league pitcher

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Bruins got crap for Thornton.
Any deal for Manny will have 2-3 of the best prospects in baseball.

Thats what I mean. They're not gonna trade Manny just for the sake of it.

[Zito75]

IMO, any young prospect is a good deal for Manny. Just as long as the BoSox can move that dough!

[wigglestrue]

If Manny were a FA right now...
A team would end up paying him what he's getting now, more or less.
And that team would also give up a 1st rounder, right?

I think two top prospects is the least the Sox should ask for.
Loney or LaRoche as the hitting prospect...
Elbert or Kershaw as the pitching prospect...
Broxton as the MLB pitcher.

[EvanAparra]

If Manny were a FA right now...
A team would end up paying him what he's getting now, more or less.
And that team would also give up a 1st rounder, right?

I think two top prospects is the least the Sox should ask for.
Loney or LaRoche as the hitting prospect...
Elbert or Kershaw as the pitching prospect...
Broxton as the MLB pitcher.

I think the reason the Sox haven't moved him in the past 3 years is because they're asking for the same thing you are.

[wigglestrue]

And I think if they don't get it, he won't be moved.

[EvanAparra]

And I think if they don't get it, he won't be moved.
I hope you're right.

[ESPNFan]

Bruins got crap for Thornton.
Any deal for Manny will have 2-3 of the best prospects in baseball.

The Bruins weren't forced to deal Thorton however.
The Sox are clearly dealing from a weaker position.
That being said Theo acumen in dealing with other teams is lightyears ahead of that bonehead Mike O'Connell.

For an MVP franchise center the Bruins got a 2nd line left wing, a #2 or 3 Defenseman and a Checking line center.
The baseball equivalent would be the Twins Trading Johan Santana to Red Sox for Kevin Youkillis, Willy Mo Pena and Julian Tavarez.

Not so good.

[wigglestrue]

Sox are not "forced" to trade Manny.

[hellborn]

If Manny were a FA right now...
A team would end up paying him what he's getting now, more or less.
And that team would also give up a 1st rounder, right?

I think two top prospects is the least the Sox should ask for.
Loney or LaRoche as the hitting prospect...
Elbert or Kershaw as the pitching prospect...
Broxton as the MLB pitcher.
I wouldn't call Loney or LaRoche prospects...they're ML hitters.
I'm sure that the Bosox are looking at this from a cost and quality point of view...they probably can't really replace Manny's quality, but they figure they should get some effective power hitting out of Wily Mo in LF for cheap, and whatever pitchers or SS they pick up in the trade should be fairly inexpensive, too. Drew won't be cheap and is a bigtime gamble, but, if he actually comes up with another year like he had in Atlanta (which I would never count on), you've basically got a Manny type hitter. Thing is that Manny does it EVERY year...

[Mariano_Rivera]

The Bruins weren't forced to deal Thorton however.
The Sox are clearly dealing from a weaker position.
That being said Theo acumen in dealing with other teams is lightyears ahead of that bonehead Mike O'Connell.

For an MVP franchise center the Bruins got a 2nd line left wing, a #2 or 3 Defenseman and a Checking line center.
The baseball equivalent would be the Twins Trading Johan Santana to Red Sox for Kevin Youkillis, Willy Mo Pena and Julian Tavarez.

Not so good.
Whats wrong with WMP and Youkillis?

Whatever the Sox get it won`t be equal value. The deal might have to include a CL and prospects for that to happen. Unless they get some sort of insane offer that happens when you switch fair trades off on MVP Baseball 2005 ;)

[Brannu]

Trading one of the best hitters in the game is just plain ... stupid.

There not going to be able to get another player to fill his shoes. Not going to happen. Plus, they would be losing arguably the best RBI guy in the league behind David Ortiz. :crazy

J.D. Drew and the best prospects is not enough for what you would lose by not having that particular bat in the lineup.

[W_Marone]

Not to mention some support of the fans, they love Manny, at least I think they do, but Im not a redsox fan, or a redsox buff.

[wigglestrue]

If the Sox get a good deal, we won't mind. Most of us, anyway.
We've been conditioned to expect a Manny trade for a few years now.

[EvanAparra]

Not to mention some support of the fans, they love Manny, at least I think they do, but Im not a redsox fan, or a redsox buff.

I'm a Sox fan, and I love Manny. Our World Series MVP, our idiot, our incredibly stupid baseball player at times -- But one of the greatest right-handed hitters in the history of baseball. I'll sure miss him if he goes -- but as Nomar, Pedro, and Johnny have all left -- I think i'm getting used to losing my favorite players -- Might be adding Manny and Trot to that list this year. :(

[ESPNFan]

Whats wrong with WMP and Youkillis?

Whatever the Sox get it won`t be equal value. The deal might have to include a CL and prospects for that to happen. Unless they get some sort of insane offer that happens when you switch fair trades off on MVP Baseball 2005 ;)

There is nothing wrong with either one of those guys. Their value doesn't come close to equaling Santana's. Just like the players that Bruins got in return were not the equal of Joe Thorton. I tend to believe alot of the time that when superstar players change hands the team that gets the best player(s), not the greater number of players, fair better.

With Manny its a bit different, because the talant coming back may not be 100% known and the age of Manny and how his skills hold up over the next few years. I'm hearing rumors on Boston Radio that Jake Peavy may be part of a deal the Padre's are offering. Take that for what its worth but it seems, unlike recent years, that there is much more interest in trading for Manny this year.

[Mattingly]

Sox are not "forced" to trade Manny.
If they're going to pay $51.1m just to talk to Matlsuzaka exclusively, that'll be more than what Manny is owed the next two years. In fact, it'll be less than what he'll be paid from 2006-08.

If they get JD Drew, they will replace Nixon. Who'll replace Manny? They'd better hope to get a big slugger in return.

[wigglestrue]

And for the umpteenth time, that $51M doesn't count toward payroll.

[hellborn]

If they're going to pay $51.1m just to talk to Matlsuzaka exclusively, that'll be more than what Manny is owed the next two years. In fact, it'll be less than what he'll be paid from 2006-08.

If they get JD Drew, they will replace Nixon. Who'll replace Manny? They'd better hope to get a big slugger in return.

Wily Mo is clearly positioned to replace Manny in LF...I think they were hoping he'd take Nixon's place in RF, but he had trouble out there last season. I see Nixon as being 100% gone from Boston. There were a lot of hopeful comments about how "good" (=not as bad as RF) Wily Mo looked in CF, but that scares the crud out of me.
Wily Mo in LF, Crisp in CF, Drew in RF...but, are they really going to hang onto Crisp and start him. I think he deserves a chance to come back from his injury, but he might not get it in Boston. I don't know who is going to play RF if Drew is not signed, unless WMP gets another shot at it.
Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I still am excited about what WMP could do with the bat.

[FatAngel]

I´m in the camp of those who just don´t get it why the Sox want to move Ramirez. He´s simply the best hitter in the AL (at least) and has been for quite some time now. Swap him with Ortiz in the order and he will easily surpass any of David´s leading stats. His antics do not seem to have considerable effect on the clubhouse and statistically he costs you maybe one or two game per season because of his erratic defense/baserunning - so what ?
Drew will cost about 15M per season, so there isn´t that much financial leverage - if they sign Drew, of course.
Manny being now supposedly on his "peak trade value" also means for me that he has increased his value for his own team.
Keep him, if he doesn´t really want out.

[wigglestrue]

Swap him with Ortiz in the order and he will easily surpass any of David´s leading stats.

That's not true.
Check the 2003 and 2004 splits.

[Captain Cold Nose]

And for the umpteenth time, that $51M doesn't count toward payroll.
They still have to pay that exorbitant amount if he signs. That is on their books. That's a heckuva lot of money for a virtually unproven commodity. They're basically paying Manny's two-year salary just to talk to the guy. Two years of what they pay their highest-paid player simply to talk. Not even a guarantee he'll sign. It's a risk a great number of teams couldn't afford to make, and a very high risk with the potential of little reward should he fail to live up to expectations. Even if he puts up Hideo Nomo numbers, I don't think that's worth $100 million whether it comes out of payroll, ice cream money or petty cash.

[FatAngel]

You mean that grand total of 187 AB batting 3rd in 2004 and exclusively batting 4th in 2003 ?

[GiambiJuice]

I hope Manny gets traded so everyone can stop swinging from David Ortiz's jock and annointing him the greatest hitter of all time when they see his production level drop dramatically without the protection of Manny batting behind him.

[wigglestrue]

You mean that grand total of 187 AB batting 3rd in 2004 and exclusively batting 4th in 2003 ?

Ortiz mostly hit 5th in 2003, so...yeah.

I hope Manny gets traded so everyone can stop swinging from David Ortiz's jock and annointing him the greatest hitter of all time when they see his production level drop dramatically without the protection of Manny batting behind him.

To you, too: Look at the splits.
When Ortiz batted behind Manny, he was still awesome.

They still have to pay that exorbitant amount if he signs. That is on their books. That's a heckuva lot of money for a virtually unproven commodity. They're basically paying Manny's two-year salary just to talk to the guy. Two years of what they pay their highest-paid player simply to talk. Not even a guarantee he'll sign. It's a risk a great number of teams couldn't afford to make, and a very high risk with the potential of little reward should he fail to live up to expectations. Even if he puts up Hideo Nomo numbers, I don't think that's worth $100 million whether it comes out of payroll, ice cream money or petty cash.

Ugh.

It's on whose books? Henry's? He has 51 million dollars lost under his couch pillows. The Sox only care about staying below or around the luxury tax threshhold. That 51 million is not going to count toward the luxury tax threshhold. For the 100th time. If he doesn't sign, they get that 51 million back. For the 100th time. If Boras doesn't negotiate an out clause, the 51 million is spread out over 6 years. If he puts up Nomo's rookie numbers, then he's an ace, and one of the best pitchers in baseball, and definitely worth the price and more. And for the 100th time: extra (shared and unshared) revenue from Japanese and other sources will help subsidize the bid and contract.

In order to not turn this into another Matsuzaka thread...
I suggest you read the other threads about him first, thoroughly.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Ortiz mostly hit 5th in 2003, so...yeah.



To you, too: Look at the splits.
When Ortiz batted behind Manny, he was still awesome.



Ugh.

It's on whose books? Henry's? He has 51 million dollars lost under his couch pillows. The Sox only care about staying below or around the luxury tax threshhold. That 51 million is not going to count toward the luxury tax threshhold. For the 100th time. If he doesn't sign, they get that 51 million back. For the 100th time. If Boras doesn't negotiate an out clause, the 51 million is spread out over 6 years. If he puts up Nomo's rookie numbers, then he's an ace, and one of the best pitchers in baseball, and definitely worth the price and more. And for the 100th time: extra (shared and unshared) revenue from Japanese and other sources will help subsidize the bid and contract.

In order to not turn this into another Matsuzaka thread...
I suggest you read the other threads about him first, thoroughly.
Nomo was a good pitcher. Ace is little bit of an overstatement.
So Henry is paying for this out of his own pocket? It's not the Red Sox money, but Henry's? Must be nice.
Everything about extra money from japan, etc. is speculation.
And drop the whole italics 100th time garbage. Your defensive tone is uncalled for. We're not all homers here.

[wigglestrue]

Nomo was a good pitcher. Ace is little bit of an overstatement.
So Henry is paying for this out of his own pocket? It's not the Red Sox money, but Henry's? Must be nice.
Everything about extra money from japan, etc. is speculation.
And drop the whole italics 100th time garbage. Your defensive tone is uncalled for. We're not all homers here.

- Nomo in his rookie year was an ace.

- Henry owns the Sox last time I checked.

- Extra money from Japan is not speculation.
The amount of that money is speculation.
But it will be there, absolutely.

To head off the inevitable...
No, the Sox don't have to recoup the entire bid with the extra $$$.
They merely need to subsidize the bid/contract.

Like I said, please review the Matsuzaka threads.
This is a Manny trade thread.

[DodgerBlue8188]

I'll be very dissapointed if they get rid of James Loney. He could end up being somebody who leads the Dodgers for the next 8 year. Manny is a great player but he probbaly only has 2-3 good years left in him.

[Captain Cold Nose]

- Nomo in his rookie year was an ace.

- Henry owns the Sox last time I checked.

- Extra money from Japan is not speculation.
The amount of that money is speculation.
But it will be there, absolutely.

To head off the inevitable...
No, the Sox don't have to recoup the entire bid with the extra $$$.
They merely need to subsidize the bid/contract.

Like I said, please review the Matsuzaka threads.
This is a Manny trade thread.
Fine. But Red Sox organization money and John Henry's pocket droppings are not one and the same. I doubt he's paying from his own pocket for any of this.

Anyway, the whole trade Manny sentiment has always baffled me.

It does seem illogical to me to trade Manny, who has been hitting at that high a level as long as anyone playing today. I guess his contract speak to that, but they're not just going to dump him. The team will get hurt badly losing such a bat if it's not replaced. And I've been watching Pena far longer than just this year to know the word potential is not a new phenomenen. You hear it year after year after year with him.

[W_Marone]

Listen, the Phillies need to get Manny Ramirez, not only for winning, but for other reasons as well. Philadelphia fans are tired of this "we think this guys will fit good in the organization" come to find out this guy is a Wes Helms or a Sal Fasano. We're tired of being drug through the season, getting so close, but have our hopes dashed in the very end by the washington Nationals, we need a winner, and Gillick needs to bring in a proven winner to protect Ryan Howard, Manny Ramirez. Ramirez, not only brings in a bat, but also will bring with him the confidence of Phillies fans that this team is serious to win, wanting to get the playoffs, not simply just be in the race down the stretch. Manny brings a huge bat to the table, an almost garunteed 35 homeruns and 120 some RBI a season. And in Citizen bank Park imagine what he could do, that's a scary combination, especially when you throw Utley and Howard into the mix. Plus it adds another personality to the Phillies that is lacking a bit, Ryan Howard is a quite guy who gets it done, Utley is a quite guy in most aspects, but is the leader of the Phils clubhouse. Pat Burrelll, ehhhh, not much there, Manny brings some personality to a team that needs more guys like Aaron Rowand and Manny, guys who have won in the past and know how to go about winning.

I dont want to hear from Pat Gillick that he's not worth the headache, the fact of the matter is that he is worth the headaches he may bring, when youre getting a bat like that you become an almost automatic wildcard or divison favorite, when you add Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino, etc. The front office needs to show the fans that they want to win, and trading for Manny Ramirez would do that. And that's it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Listen, the Phillies need to get Manny Ramirez, not only for winning, but for other reasons as well. Philadelphia fans are tired of this "we think this guys will fit good in the organization" come to find out this guy is a Wes Helms or a Sal Fasano. We're tired of being drug through the season, getting so close, but have our hopes dashed in the very end by the washington Nationals, we need a winner, and Gillick needs to bring in a proven winner to protect Ryan Howard, Manny Ramirez. Ramirez, not only brings in a bat, but also will bring with him the confidence of Phillies fans that this team is serious to win, wanting to get the playoffs, not simply just be in the race down the stretch. Manny brings a huge bat to the table, an almost garunteed 35 homeruns and 120 some RBI a season. And in Citizen bank Park imagine what he could do, that's a scary combination, especially when you throw Utley and Howard into the mix. Plus it adds another personality to the Phillies that is lacking a bit, Ryan Howard is a quite guy who gets it done, Utley is a quite guy in most aspects, but is the leader of the Phils clubhouse. Pat Burrelll, ehhhh, not much there, Manny brings some personality to a team that needs more guys like Aaron Rowand and Manny, guys who have won in the past and know how to go about winning.

I dont want to hear from Pat Gillick that he's not worth the headache, the fact of the matter is that he is worth the headaches he may bring, when youre getting a bat like that you become an almost automatic wildcard or divison favorite, when you add Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino, etc. The front office needs to show the fans that they want to win, and trading for Manny Ramirez would do that. And that's it.
For the sake of you and the other suffering Phillie fans, I hope they finally make that big deal, just to say they finally did.
I won't go so far as to say I hope they win it all, but you guys deserve something to show the front office is not just coasting.

[W_Marone]

For the sake of you and the other suffering Phillie fans, I hope they finally make that big deal, just to say they finally did.
I won't go so far as to say I hope they win it all, but you guys deserve something to show the front office is not just coasting.

Yeah, then we hear reports from places saying that Gillick was willing to go 7 years 100 million for Soriano aswell, not sure if it's the truth or just a statment trying to keep the Phillies fanbase still with the team and believing that they're trying to get someone special. I dont know, they definantly need to make a splash sometime soon, becuase so far this has been a lost offseason.

[ChrisLDuncan]

More news

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169536

Is it just me or this just much ado about nothing?

[DownUnderDodger]

Seems very complicated!!

[SoxSon]

Is it just me or this just much ado about nothing?

I hope so.

[Williamsburg2599]

I hope so.
Agreed. I don't know why everyone is getting worked up about the annual Manny offer-a-thon. I'm about 75% sure he's staying.

[Evangelion]

Agreed. I don't know why everyone is getting worked up about the annual Manny offer-a-thon. I'm about 75% sure he's staying.
Usuaully, it's just Buster Onley poofing a lot of hot smoke, but a lot of people involved in baseball are reporting that Manny leaving Boston from Bob Ryan to Peter Gammons. If you wish to consider creditable not the point of my arguement. It's just, when this happen in the past, not as many people were reporting it, like Onley been doing.

[Erik Bedard]

I was fairly surprised to see the Orioles in the original article. Sure, he'd be a good fit, but that would most likely mean dealing Bedard and/or Loewen, which the FO has repeatedly said they will not do. And I'd like to keep both of them right here in Baltimore, though if they were traded, Boston would be my preferred destination. Finally get Bedard the visibility he deserves.

[dl4060]

I hope you're right.
So do I. He complains every year. It's always the same story. Then he goes out and has a monster season. He has been incredible every season. This may be the year he slows down, he is 34, but I would not expect that. During the next three seasons he should start to decline, but who really knows. He has been a machine with the bat, a first ballot hall of famer, and the sox would need to get something great in return. It would be nice to free up that salary, but who are they going to sign for that money. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he has an option, for another year or two at about the same salary(really not too sure about this, but read it somewhere.) with the speculation being that in order to approve a trade, he would demand his new team pick up that option. This would be a pretty steep price. Personally I hope he stays in Boston, not too many people can hit this way. If they ever do want to trade him now is the time, as if he declines he won't have the same level of value next year. He has not declined yet, but who knows, he is at an age where it could certainly happen.

[dl4060]

More news

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169536

Is it just me or this just much ado about nothing?

Just read this. I guess it is the case about the option years.

[FatAngel]

Ortiz mostly hit 5th in 2003, so...yeah.


Yup, you´re right on this.

[plask_stirlac]

For the sake of you and the other suffering Phillie fans, I hope they finally make that big deal, just to say they finally did.
I won't go so far as to say I hope they win it all, but you guys deserve something to show the front office is not just coasting.

Signing Jim Thome was a pretty big move, with Millwood as well. Four offseasons ago isn't a very long time since the "big move," look at the Twins since signing Molitor, Kenny Rogers and not much else in the offseason. And trading Jim Thome was also a gutsy but good move, Howard had to have a big year.