Do YOU want Manny traded?

[Derek Jeter]

I say yes, partly because I am a Yankee Fan.:D But mostly because I think manny is turning into a Barry Bonds. He is more of a show than a real player.:grouchy If they trade him they could definately get some premo prospects, and or some really good major league talent. Besides with Drew the Sox already have a replacement.

[EvanAparra]

I'd like it if only Sox fans voted, just because I have the same amount of curiosity as XX does in this manner. Thanks. :)

P.S. This possible trade would, of course, be of that 'equal value' we keep hearing about.

[wigglestrue]

If we get a prize pitching prospect, a stud reliever, and a young power bat? I'd even pay the other team 1/4 of Manny's salary. As long as the prospects aren't flipped to Atlanta for Andruw Jones or something. I think people make a little too much about Manny protecting Papi in the lineup. Papi won't mind the extra OBP, and not having a big bat following him didn't hurt him none in 2004. Manny wants out again, apparently, otherwise I wouldn't want to trade him. But now is the time. I'd love a Broxton/Kemp/Kershaw deal. Dodgers fans would hate it, but like I said, I'd be willing to pay about 5M a year if I'm the Sox for that kind of package. Other teams I'd like doing a deal with: Angels, Rockies.

[Jager]

I'd like it if only Sox fans voted, just because I have the same amount of curiosity as XX does in this manner. Thanks. :)

P.S. This possible trade would, of course, be of that 'equal value' we keep hearing about.

What is the possible trade? I have heard a bunch of them. I'd be for trading Manny if it's for the right deal.

[EvanAparra]

Ok... How about Matt Kemp and Brad Penny.

[wigglestrue]

Ok... How about Matt Kemp and Brad Penny.

Yuck. I'd want more.

[Jager]

Yuck. I'd want more.

I don't think the Dodgers would do that, but I'd take Kemp and Penny without a though. Kemp is a great young player, and Penny is a great pitcher. I'd take that trade in a second, but that's just not going to happen.

[EvanAparra]

Brandon Wood and Ervin Santana.

[EvanAparra]

I don't think the Dodgers would do that, but I'd take Kemp and Penny without a though. Kemp is a great young player, and Penny is a great pitcher. I'd take that trade in a second, but that's just not going to happen.
Why dont you think they'd do that? I think they would pull the trigger on it, its just Billingsley they wont want to give up.

[Dalkowski110]

I wouldn't mind seeing Ervin Santana, Scot Shields, and Howie Kendrick (with Kendry Morales as a possible throw-in) for Manny and a starting pitching prospect. However, because the Angels would have to be on psychadelic drugs to pull off this deal, I rather think Manny should stay in Boston. To remedy the closer problem...why not turn a starting pitching prospect into a closer for a year until the BoSox can sign somebody or be in a better position to trade someone? Heck, Jonathan Papelbon began his MLB career as a closer.

[EvanAparra]

Problem is, we don't have any real SP prospects that are major league ready.

[Ichiro51]

Manny is unlikely going to the Angels/Dodgers.

Angels already invested 50 million in Gary Matthews, do they really need another OF? and Manny is a 5-10 player, and he has said in the past he would rather stay in the AL.

[W_Marone]

I love Manny in Boston, along with Big Papi, if you deal Manny what do you have? Just Ortiz and a couple other guys left of the "idiots". Manny has become, along with Ortiz, the face of the organization. Why trade away an established player and rely on an unproven guy, Willy Mo Pena, and another guy who hasnt had a great season since with the Braves, J.D. Drew? I'm actually curious RedSox nation, what makes the front office contemplate trading Manny every season? Is it character? Is manny saying something?

[Evangelion]

Almost all AL team have been knocked out. Texas no longer interested since Theo likely wanted Young in any deal for Rameriz. The Angels are all, but out by signing Matthews Jr. to that contract of 50 million. The NL West coast team seem like the only place Rameriz would land, while I'm against dealing Manny, removing him from our league would be a must if you're going to deal him.

Jager, Penny a great pitcher? He's looked good, but great? I hope you're not basing that view on his All-Star performance.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=207267&statType=2

I don't know about you, but those numbers aren't "great", but solid or good.

I've heard Boston interest in Loney of the Dodgers. Not sure the Dodgers would deal Kemp, but even so, if you wanted Kemp, you're likely not getting Kemp. At the moment, the Sox are looking the possible chance of not even getting MLB ready talent in return.

Though, I don't know if I would object if Manny was dealt to S.D. straight up for Peavy. I wonder if landing Zito would make Peavy tradable since their rotation would be strong at the moment. We'll have to see, but that's one of the few deals I won't have a problem with.

[EvanAparra]

I've heard Boston interest in Loney of the Dodgers. Not sure the Dodgers would deal Kemp, but even so, if you wanted Kemp, you're likely not getting Kemp. At the moment, the Sox are looking the possible chance of not even getting MLB ready talent in return.

Where'd you get this stuff? Just your own assumptions?

[KCGHOST]

Where'd you get this stuff? Just your own assumptions?

It's what people at ESPN have been reporting lately. According to Kurkjian and others the Sox have accepted that they are going to have to back off their demands for a talent-for-talent trade. They are going to have to do like the Yanks with Sheffield and accept a certain amount of "prospectness" (i.e. risk) in what they get back.

[EvanAparra]

It's what people at ESPN have been reporting lately. According to Kurkjian and others the Sox have accepted that they are going to have to back off their demands for a talent-for-talent trade. They are going to have to do like the Yanks with Sheffield and accept a certain amount of "prospectness" (i.e. risk) in what they get back.

Oh ok... Well then I sure think that would be a terrible idea. Only way to do it is if we are getting back Kemp from LA or Linecum from SF.. I dont want 4 mid-level pitching prospects.

[Senor Octobre]

Quite frankly the thought of trading him makes me sick, and the looks of what we might get in return makes me even sicker. Let's face it, unless we get pretty friggin close to a top prospect + more, anything else just seems like garbage to me. Even a top prospect doesn't seem all that good beacuse its not even a sure thing. I don't care what anyone says, trouble or no Manny IS a sure thing. Any way you slice it, raw stats or sabermatics, there is no hitter (or pitcher) of any equivelant value available that the sox could get in return for him. I don't know about anyone else feels but i'm pretty frustrated about it.

[SoxSon]

Quite frankly the thought of trading him makes me sick, and the looks of what we might get in return makes me even sicker.

That about sums it up for me.
I'm horrified by the disregard I'm seeing for Manny's impact on our lineup.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Not a Sox fan, but thought you'd like to read this

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2677627

[wigglestrue]

OK, if not Kemp or Billingsley, then...
Loney/LaRoche + Broxton + Elbert/Kershaw.
I don't want Ethier at all in this trade.

[VTSoxFan]

That about sums it up for me.
I'm horrified by the disregard I'm seeing for Manny's impact on our lineup.

Let me third that opinion. I said before that if we lose Manny, we lose half of Ortiz, and I don't see things being any different than that.

[wigglestrue]

How was Ortiz when he was batting behind Manny?
I'd say he was pretty damned good.

[EvanAparra]

How was Ortiz when he was batting behind Manny?
I'd say he was pretty damned good.
Teams weren't as scared as Ortiz then as they are now.

[wigglestrue]

But he was still awesome.

[Williamsburg2599]

But he was still awesome.
It doesn't matter because they'll never pitch to him if he has no one behind him to protect him.

[wigglestrue]

OK, so his OBP will be 1.000
I can live with that.

[FlashGordon]

I suppose the operative word in that question is "want". I don't really want Manny to be traded; I just want this perennial buzz about trading him to stop. Either he and his agent need to shut up and play out the contract, or they need to take their show somewhere else. Manny is an excellent hitter, maybe even the best, but the distraction and discontentment he creates seriously cut into his team value. I guess what I really want is for him to grow up a little.

[hellborn]

It doesn't matter because they'll never pitch to him if he has no one behind him to protect him.

I don't think that Wily Mo will ever be the complete hitter that Manny was, but I can certainly see him developing into a hitter that pitchers will have to respect, maybe even next year. Heck, I could even see him eventually having seasons with more HRs than Manny ever had...but, he'll probably never be the OBP machine that Manny is. Even Papi was raving about how hard Wily hit the ball...not that it's the only thing to hitting, but it's certainly not a bad thing to be able to absolutely crush the ball.
Wily Mo is over two years younger than Ryan Howard, and already has had a partial season with 26 HRs...the guy deserves a chance to develop into whatever hitter he can be. If the Bosox aren't going to start him, trade him to a team where he will and get a player who is needed to fill a hole in return. Bosox sure have a few to fill...

[hellborn]

I don't WANT Manny to be traded, but, if the team can trade Manny, assemble an OF that at least has the potential to be strong, find a SS, and pick up some pitching, I won't cry.
I would miss watching that awesome swing, though.

[VTSoxFan]

I suppose the operative word in that question is "want". I don't really want Manny to be traded; I just want this perennial buzz about trading him to stop. Either he and his agent need to shut up and play out the contract, or they need to take their show somewhere else. Manny is an excellent hitter, maybe even the best, but the distraction and discontentment he creates seriously cut into his team value. I guess what I really want is for him to grow up a little.

This time, was it Manny asking out, or was it Theo making noise about trading him?

Whoever started it this time, I agree with Flash. Everyone needs to just shut up and let Manny play out the last 2 years of his contract.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Papi's reduced production will is being blown out of proportion here, yes his production will go down, however his OBP won't be over .500 and he will still be productive. You can probably expect about a .280/38-43/115-130 season from him with a about .425/.550 in the OBP and SLG average.

[SoxSon]

Papi's reduced production will is being blown out of proportion here, yes his production will go down, however his OBP won't be over .500 and he will still be productive. You can probably expect about a .280/38-43/115-130 season from him with a about .425/.550 in the OBP and SLG average.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm talking about Manny's impact apart from Ortiz as much as I'm talking about him protecting the guy.

I think Manny is the best right-handed hitter in the game right now. I just don't think a team should trade that away.

[Murderer's Row]

Doesn't Vladimir Guerrero bat right-handed?

[EvanAparra]

Doesn't Vladimir Guerrero bat right-handed?
Yes. Manny is and has been better than him, IMO.

[AlecBoy006]

Despite Manny's antics, he is still very good, and his stock may rise. What prospects/players would the Red Sox get? This is a huge oppourtunity for them to get alot. Go for it, Boston.

[SoxSon]

Yes. Manny is and has been better than him, IMO.

Agreed, Evan.

Murderer's Row, Vlad is fantastic...I'm a big fan of his. However, even Vlad isn't Manny.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Agreed, Evan.

Murderer's Row, Vlad is fantastic...I'm a big fan of his. However, even Vlad isn't Manny.

I would trade for prospects. Massiv prospects that we can fill some holes. SS, closer, RP and 1B, so that Youkilis can move to left field.

For example Adrian Gonzalez and Scott Linebrink from the Padres.

Or Loney, Broxton and a SS. from the Dodgers.

[EvanAparra]

Gonzalez and Linebrink? That's it? I would want Peavy from the Padres.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Gonzalez and Linebrink? That's it? I would want Peavy from the Padres.

Well Peavy? We must put Papelbon back to the closer role. Because we would have one starter too much. And dont forget Lester...

[EvanAparra]

Well Peavy? We must put Papelbon back to the closer role. Because we would have one starter too much. And dont forget Lester...
Schilling
Beckett
Matsuzaka
Papelbon
Peavy

Lester probably wont be ready for '06, last I read -- And i wouldnt mind letting him throw more innings in AAA anyway.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Schilling
Beckett
Matsuzaka
Papelbon
Peavy

Lester probably wont be ready for '06, last I read -- And i wouldnt mind letting him throw more innings in AAA anyway.

And Wakefield as acloser????:D :D :D

Rumors: Manny for Linebrink, Peavy and Adrian Gonzalez...!!

[PhilWings24]

way too simple a question, but i voted yes. i'm really sort of on the fence about it, but at this point i feel the need to strongly advocate it to maintain neutrality. i feel like most of red sox nation is simplifying the matter way too much.

yes ortiz will get pitched around more. yes it will make him less exciting. yes it will make him a little worse. but people act like the 70 extra walks he'd be getting count for nothing, when in fact they are (by themselves) an enormous enormous benefit.

if you can toughen up the bottom of the lineup enough to drive papi in, and the added runs he scores are more than the rbi's he's losing by getting pitched around, then it helps the offense.

it would take an extreme and highly unlikely set of circumstances for it to get that extreme, but my point is that papi will not be ruined by this trade

just ask yourself this: who are the 10 hitter's you've seen pitched around most? now, ask yourself if it kept a SINGLE one of them from being an offensive monster.

manny's protection was trot nixon for a few years. in many ways, trot nixon is a generally worse (although much more likable lol) version of jd drew. did manny struggle epically in those years?

papi HIMSELF hit behind manny, with trot nixon as the #5 (and trot missed alot of time that year), and hit to the tune of a 300 average and 41 homeruns. and his clutch hitting wasn't as unbelievable as it was this year, but that WAS the year he started garnering this reputation, what with his playoffs (which i believe he batted behind manny for all of)

will papi be a worse player without ortiz protecting him? absolutely.

but if we trade manny for a pitcher who becomes a solid producer for us, then all other things being equal, its gonna help the team win.\

also, people just ignore the defense, despite the fact that it is seemingly the new OBP (as in it's currently-according to theo and billy beane- the most undervalued commodity in baseball). this year in the outfield we were, from left to right

very bad in left
barely below average in center
very good in right.

with coco in left, wmp in center, and drew in right we immediately go to

outstaning in left
very good in center
outstanding in right.

and this is with a team that is staffed HUGELY with flyball pitchers.

obviously this is a difficult question. and i LOVE papi, and the idea of his production being slashed by manny's departure makes me as sad as anyone. but really, i wanna watch the sox win, and if the sox geta good pitcher in return for manny, or 2 solid hitters with good gloves, it'll help the sox win.

[EvanAparra]

Woah, why would we be 'very good' in center with WMP? He looked OK out there, but nowhere near the best CFers in the league.

[EvanAparra]

Rumors: Manny for Linebrink, Peavy and Adrian Gonzalez...!!

If that were to happen, I would bow at Theo's feet and annoint him master of my domain.

[wigglestrue]

IMO, we'd go from:
Bad LF, Average CF, OK RF.
To:
Good LF, Average CF, Good RF.

Not too drastic a difference.

[SoxSon]

will papi be a worse player without ortiz protecting him? absolutely.

I imagine he would be. ;) :p


but if we trade manny for a pitcher who becomes a solid producer for us, then all other things being equal, its gonna help the team win.\

also, people just ignore the defense, despite the fact that it is seemingly the new OBP (as in it's currently-according to theo and billy beane- the most undervalued commodity in baseball). this year in the outfield we were, from left to right

very bad in left
barely below average in center
very good in right.

with coco in left, wmp in center, and drew in right we immediately go to

outstaning in left
very good in center
outstanding in right.

and this is with a team that is staffed HUGELY with flyball pitchers.

obviously this is a difficult question. and i LOVE papi, and the idea of his production being slashed by manny's departure makes me as sad as anyone. but really, i wanna watch the sox win, and if the sox geta good pitcher in return for manny, or 2 solid hitters with good gloves, it'll help the sox win.

Defense isn't the equivalent of offense, phil. I understand the outfield defense could be better, but the loss of offense would be more dramatic than the gain in defense we'd pick up, IMO.

Also, the question is do we need a "good" pitcher? I mean...we could always use a solid arm, as 2006 demonstrated, but with Pap and Matsuzaka (presumably) in the rotation, what is it we're looking for? I think anyone looking to trade Manny Ramirez for a couple of relievers is missing the boat. A couple of prospects, who may or may not turn out to be anything? Nah. A combination of a good hitter and a couple of relievers? Well...I think we can do that without losing Ramirez.

In addition, I'm suspecting that many (and I don't mean you, necessarily, phil) want to see Ramirez out of Boston not because of what he might bring in trade, but because they're personally offended by his eccentricities. I think that's incredibly near-sighted, and not good business. Who cares if he asks to be traded or if he ducks behind the Monster for relief every now and then? We should just deal with it, because the guy is a hitting machine. He is a masterful right-handed hitter, with or without Ortiz. I love Papi, but Manny is the heart and soul of this lineup. If he goes, the offense can only be weaker without him.

[The Kid]

Every team in the East wants Manny traded because no matter how bad pitching is, they beleive that the Manny-Papi combo can out slug you. When you trade Manny, you greatly down grade your offense and chance of winning. No matter how much of a whiner Manny may be, he is one of the greatest sluggers in the game today. Trading Manny would simply be idiotic.

[Evangelion]

I'm totally for any deal that bring Peavy to Boston. Evan posted the rotation. Lester would be expandable in 08 or just take a spot in the rotation. Remember, Schilling stated will be his final season. So, that would open a spot. Wakefield would move to bullpen as long relief and back-up starter. He's been game for any role the Sox wanted use him in the past, so I would assume that would still be the case.

SoxSon, if you saw Peavy, you won't object to him coming to Boston. Also, he's very young. He's got the ability to be an ace and has been an ace, just had couple of injury issues last season, but bounced back after a rough start. Peavy, Papelbon, Beckett and Matsuzaka would give you one of the best rotation next year and years to come. Even with the lost of offense in Rameriz, you're getting a proven frontline starter in Peavy.

I'm only in favor of dealing Manny, if we get Peavy in return. I won't mind Matt Cain either, but he's likely untouchable.

Just for the record, I'm against dealing Manny just to get rid of him, which would seem to be the case. Even for all his troubles, he's still a producer. You want to lower a chance to win, because a player a pain in the #$@? Tolerate it, as longer as he's producing and the team producing. You can call me what you wish for not making a big deal about it, but it's not smart to deal Rameriz, unless you get full value back in the deal. You can't spin it that it's a logical choice to move him either.

[SoxSon]

SoxSon, if you saw Peavy, you won't object to him coming to Boston. Also, he's very young. He's got the ability to be an ace and has been an ace, just had couple of injury issues last season, but bounced back after a rough start. Peavy, Papelbon, Beckett and Matsuzaka would give you one of the best rotation next year and years to come. Even with the lost of offense in Rameriz, you're getting a proven frontline starter in Peavy.

I'm only in favor of dealing Manny, if we get Peavy in return. I won't mind Matt Cain either, but he's likely untouchable.

Just for the record, I'm against dealing Manny just to get rid of him, which would seem to be the case. Even for all his troubles, he's still a producer. You want to lower a chance to win, because a player a pain in the #$@? Tolerate it, as longer as he's producing and the team producing. You can call me what you wish for not making a big deal about it, but it's not smart to deal Rameriz, unless you get full value back in the deal. You can't spin it that it's a logical choice to move him either.


I'm very much aware of Peavy. I followed every start he had last season, as well as most the season before, and I'm a fan. I'm not, however, in favor of losing Ramirez, regardless.

Also: watch the language, ok?

[Evangelion]

I'm very much aware of Peavy. I followed every start he had last season, as well as most the season before, and I'm a fan. I'm not, however, in favor of losing Ramirez, regardless.

Also: watch the language, ok?
I agree, but if management that set on dealing Rameriz, then I'm all for getting Peavy in a deal. At the moment, I do feel Rameriz might be gone next season considering multi-sources reporting Rameriz's departure from Boston going to happen, unlike previous season. Might as well gain a stud young pitcher like Peavy if you're going to lose Rameriz, no?

Sorry about that. I was going to use butt, but wasn't sure if the other word was that bad, if wasn't censored in all. Don't worry about it. I won't use that word again.

[EvanAparra]

Clay Hensley, Khalil Greene, and Scott Linebrink -- What does the peanut gallery think about that deal?

I'm a big Hensley fan, so i'm abstaining.

[EvanAparra]

After looking at it -- I'd really like it if we could get Khalil Greene from the Padres. His numbers don't look impressive at first glance, but lets look at his stats away from Petco...

.277/.341/.513 --- That is, needless to say, GREAT production from a SS, and putting him in a RH hitter's park like Fenway isn't going to hurt either.

He just turned 27, and from the small sample size i've seen, looks pretty good defensively. I'd ask the Padres fans around here, but there aren't many.

[Evangelion]

At the moment, San Diego seem like the best partner. While we would like Peavy, if such a deal was on a table, Theo would have pulled it in one second. The deal you posted Evan seem more logical, though not enough for Manny, but we're going to lose more than we gain in dealing with Manny.

While I like the deal, I don't want to give up Manny for those pitchers. I haven't been that high on Linebrink. His value at it's peak, but I don't expect him to continue being a effective reliever for a long time. I would like to see his statistic at PETCO and away from PETCO to make a better judge on his talent.

I don't know about Hensley. He doesn't seem great, but doesn't seme awful. Look solid last season, even with an ERA of 4.00 plus on the road, it's still was only 10 more runs from PETCO. Still, I wonder how Fenway would treat him.

[EvanAparra]

While I like the deal, I don't want to give up Manny for those pitchers. I haven't been that high on Linebrink. His value at it's peak, but I don't expect him to continue being a effective reliever for a long time. I would like to see his statistic at PETCO and away from PETCO to make a better judge on his talent.

He has a 2.75 at Petco, Compared to a 3.12 career ERA. Not too bad.

I don't know about Hensley. He doesn't seem great, but doesn't seme awful. Look solid last season, even with an ERA of 4.00 plus on the road, it's still was only 10 more runs from PETCO. Still, I wonder how Fenway would treat him.

I think he's going to be a very good pitcher, to tell you the truth. Every time i've seen him, he's looked very good. Career ERA of 3.59 on the road, and he's only 26 -- high ceiling for this kid, and it would be great to be able to bring him out of the bullpen this year.

All that being said, if Peavy is on the table for a second, jump at it, Theo.

[freshprince85]

i want!!!
we could need him in left!
but i don´t think that he´ll be tradet. just stupid rumors like the last years.
and if we geed him, i think that we would send heilman, and one or two prospects (excluding milledge and pelfrey)

[Dalkowski110]

No thanks on Manny as a Met! I've heard that Buster Olney fairy tale one too many times for it to be even palatable. Another problem for a closer that could be solved is to, well, turn your setup guy (or a middle reliever) into a closer. It's happened before. Even Braden Looper made a servicable closer (albeit an unreliable one, but not exactly like Craig Hansen) with the Mets. What about signing some free agent reliever for cheap and turning him into your closer OR signing an extra reliever and moving the guy with his job into a closing role?

[PhilWings24]

Woah, why would we be 'very good' in center with WMP? He looked OK out there, but nowhere near the best CFers in the league.

bpro has him ranked as 7 runs above average over his career, very good for a CF. and its in line with his self-assessment: he's said that his biggest problem fieliding is getting jumps on balls and taking smart routes, and that seeing the ball off the bat helps him with that alot. he's certainyl fast enough to play any position they want him to, and he's said he's most comfortable in center. and most defensive metrics seem to agree with him.

IMO, we'd go from:
Bad LF, Average CF, OK RF.
To:
Good LF, Average CF, Good RF.

Not too drastic a difference.

you're selling trot, drew, wmp a bit, and coco all short in my book. coco is one of the best defensive LFers in the game. his strengths would be limited by fenway's small left field, but he's outstanding in left. wmp struck me as a bit above average in center, better than coco imo, and most defensive metrics have him as quite a bit better than that. drew is one of the best defensive RFers in baseball, at least when he's actually out there lol, and nixon is a great fielder himself.


Defense isn't the equivalent of offense, phil. I understand the outfield defense could be better, but the loss of offense would be more dramatic than the gain in defense we'd pick up, IMO.

that's all true, but we would get something for manny. we'd also be getting a pitcher or another bat. so manny's offense+ manny's defense is worth well more than drew's offense plus drew's defense, sure.

but is manny's offense plus manny's defense plus the effect on papi's offense worth more than drew's offense plus drew's defense plus the added defense in center plus the added defense in left plus ervin santana's (or someone of about his caliber) pitching plus andy laroche's offense plus andy laroche's defense (again, just someone like him. i've heard both andy laroche and santana's names tossed around in rumors, that's the only reason i chose them)? i'm not sure, but i'd definitely be tempted to say that's more gain than loss right there.


Also, the question is do we need a "good" pitcher? I mean...we could always use a solid arm, as 2006 demonstrated, but with Pap and Matsuzaka (presumably) in the rotation, what is it we're looking for? I think anyone looking to trade Manny Ramirez for a couple of relievers is missing the boat. A couple of prospects, who may or may not turn out to be anything? Nah. A combination of a good hitter and a couple of relievers? Well...I think we can do that without losing Ramirez.

that's a good question, i personally would take a very good pitching prospect, one with a high ceiling, above all else. cus while a pitcher like ervin santana is nice, we really have a deep rotation. there's no one in our rotation, except MAYBE wake, that would be better off in the pen. so i get what you're saying, but if dealing manny means we get lugo at 9 mil and andy laroche at minimum wage and youk stays at first, as opposed to lowell at 10 mil at third, youk at minimum at first, and cora at 2 mil at short, then it's worth thinking about.


In addition, I'm suspecting that many (and I don't mean you, necessarily, phil) want to see Ramirez out of Boston not because of what he might bring in trade, but because they're personally offended by his eccentricities. I think that's incredibly near-sighted, and not good business. Who cares if he asks to be traded or if he ducks behind the Monster for relief every now and then? We should just deal with it, because the guy is a hitting machine. He is a masterful right-handed hitter, with or without Ortiz. I love Papi, but Manny is the heart and soul of this lineup. If he goes, the offense can only be weaker without him.

i definitely am with you hear. i've defended the attacks on his personality as much as anyone i know. if it turns out his laziness is making everyone else feel like they can get away with doing less, that's one thing. but seeing the cast of characters on this team, i'd be shocked if that was the case.

what i always say is that 40 homeruns from a slob is worth more than 39 homeruns from a gritty team-first guy, assuming the slob isn't decreasing the effectiveness of his teammates.

i can wrap up my genearl frustaration on this topic in a few sentences. it comes up in every single discussion of moves that a gm makes. if the sox trade manny, they will not get equal value back in the deal, even taking into account the money we'd get. i'm entirely confident in that. does that mean that no deal we can make for him would be a good one? no way. what i've been trying to say, not only hear but in every gm conversation i'm involved with for the most part; we need to think about the fact that almost no deal is a straight up deal. even a 1 for 1 deal with players that have identical salaries. say keeping manny means having him in left, coco in center, drew in right, wmp wasting on the bench, lowell at third (who we will lose for nothing more than draft picks cus of free agency), youk at first, alex cora at short, and wake as the 5th starter. now say dumping him and his salary means having coco in left, wmp in center, drew in right, andy laroche at 3rd for 4 years, julio lugo at short, youk at first, ervin santana as the 5th starter, and wake eating innings out of the pen. hell, what says that a total of 5 mil a year keeps daisuke from coming to the sox, and dumping manny's 5 mil would fix that (granted, there the signing of drew would be the dumb deal, not keeping manny. but you get the point i'm making)

maybe that's still a bad deal. i don't know everything, even though i like to think i do lol. but there you're basically trading manny and our worst reliever for a starter, 3 extra years of a 3b who should improve during his tenure, a shortstop, a reliever, and wily mo pena. that would seem to me to be a good deal. maybe not, but that's how i'd see it.

and granted, all of this is dependant upon the sox getting the right deal. not just any old deal.

[PhilWings24]

where'd that linebrink/peavy rumor come fron?

at a glance i'd be for that deal without a doubt. i'm surprised san diego would be that willing to invest so much money, though.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I do not think Ramirez should leave, but I definetly wouldn't mind him in the Cardinals crappy outfield (fat chance).

[SoxSon]

that's all true, but we would get something for manny. we'd also be getting a pitcher or another bat. so manny's offense+ manny's defense is worth well more than drew's offense plus drew's defense, sure.

but is manny's offense plus manny's defense plus the effect on papi's offense worth more than drew's offense plus drew's defense plus the added defense in center plus the added defense in left plus ervin santana's (or someone of about his caliber) pitching plus andy laroche's offense plus andy laroche's defense (again, just someone like him. i've heard both andy laroche and santana's names tossed around in rumors, that's the only reason i chose them)? i'm not sure, but i'd definitely be tempted to say that's more gain than loss right there.



that's a good question, i personally would take a very good pitching prospect, one with a high ceiling, above all else. cus while a pitcher like ervin santana is nice, we really have a deep rotation. there's no one in our rotation, except MAYBE wake, that would be better off in the pen. so i get what you're saying, but if dealing manny means we get lugo at 9 mil and andy laroche at minimum wage and youk stays at first, as opposed to lowell at 10 mil at third, youk at minimum at first, and cora at 2 mil at short, then it's worth thinking about.

I understand the direction you're taking with your argument here, but I think it's misapplied. A team like Boston doesn't need to ship out premier talent like Manny Ramirez to fill holes elsewhere. We just presumably spent 51 million dollars simply to talk to a Japanese pitcher. In addition, the list of players you're using isn't that impressive to me. I think Drew will turn out to be a mistake, and getting guys like Ervin Santana and Laroche for Manny seems silly to me. I can't help my feelings on it, I guess. Unless there's information in the inner sanctum that busts this whole thing wide open, I think Theo is acting like a over-eager teenager.

if the sox trade manny, they will not get equal value back in the deal, even taking into account the money we'd get. i'm entirely confident in that. does that mean that no deal we can make for him would be a good one? no way. what i've been trying to say, not only hear but in every gm conversation i'm involved with for the most part; we need to think about the fact that almost no deal is a straight up deal. even a 1 for 1 deal with players that have identical salaries. say keeping manny means having him in left, coco in center, drew in right, wmp wasting on the bench, lowell at third (who we will lose for nothing more than draft picks cus of free agency), youk at first, alex cora at short, and wake as the 5th starter. now say dumping him and his salary means having coco in left, wmp in center, drew in right, andy laroche at 3rd for 4 years, julio lugo at short, youk at first, ervin santana as the 5th starter, and wake eating innings out of the pen. hell, what says that a total of 5 mil a year keeps daisuke from coming to the sox, and dumping manny's 5 mil would fix that (granted, there the signing of drew would be the dumb deal, not keeping manny. but you get the point i'm making)

maybe that's still a bad deal. i don't know everything, even though i like to think i do lol. but there you're basically trading manny and our worst reliever for a starter, 3 extra years of a 3b who should improve during his tenure, a shortstop, a reliever, and wily mo pena. that would seem to me to be a good deal. maybe not, but that's how i'd see it.

and granted, all of this is dependant upon the sox getting the right deal. not just any old deal.

Again, keep in mind that Boston is perfectly capable of buying these positions outright when the need arises.

There are a select few players, IMO, who are pretty much untradeable, because they are so much better than the counterparts. To me, Ramirez is one of those guys. Not getting equal value is an understatement in his case, unless we're getting one of literally three or four guys in baseball in return. Many other ballclubs find themselves in postions where they have to trade their big talent, because they can't afford to fill every hole without the swap. We're just not one of those ballclubs.

[Mattingly]

No questions asked, salary or contract terms not being an issue, but exclusively for player value, which of the following would you trade straight-up for Manny?

Johan Santana
Alex Rodriguez
Albert Pujols
Vladimir Guerrero
Ryan Howard
Miguel Tejada

If "none of the above", I'll just slink back into the cave from which I'd recently exited. :D

[wigglestrue]

All of the above...

...Oh, except for ARod. :)

[EvanAparra]

No questions asked, salary or contract terms not being an issue, but exclusively for player value, which of the following would you trade straight-up for Manny?

Johan Santana
Alex Rodriguez
Albert Pujols
Vladimir Guerrero
Ryan Howard
Miguel Tejada

If "none of the above", I'll just slink back into the cave from which I'd recently exited. :D

Very good question..

Johan Santana - Yes.
Alex Rodriguez - Yes.
Albert Pujols - Yes.
Vladimir Guerrero - No.
Ryan Howard - Yes.
Miguel Tejada - No.

I'm mostly picking the players that are young and would be producing for a good amount of time. Santana is the best pitcher in all of baseball and that's way to hard to pass up. Vlad and Tejada are pretty much at the same period in their careers as Manny, and Im not a big fan of Miggy's anyway. I just don't see any valid reason to trade Manny for Tejada and Guerrero -- I dont see that as improving our team now or in the future -- where I feel I get that with the rest of them.

[DoubleX]

I'm mostly picking the players that are young and would be producing for a good amount of time. Santana is the best pitcher in all of baseball and that's way to hard to pass up. Vlad and Tejada are pretty much at the same period in their careers as Manny, and Im not a big fan of Miggy's anyway. I just don't see any valid reason to trade Manny for Tejada and Guerrero -- I dont see that as improving our team now or in the future -- where I feel I get that with the rest of them.

What's wrong with Guerrero? His back is somewhat of a concern, but he's cheaper, younger, and a more dynamic player than Manny. He's a very similar hitter to Manny in that he hits for power and he hits for average; he just doesn't draw quite as many walks as Manny, but he also doesn't strike out nearly as much as Manny. He's a better defensive player, much better on the bases, and he plays hard. His power numbers would also probably get a boost by Fenway. Guerrero is a terrific player and I still don't think he gets the credit he deserves.

[EvanAparra]

What's wrong with Guerrero? His back is somewhat of a concern, but he's cheaper, younger, and a more dynamic player than Manny. He's a very similar hitter to Manny in that he hits for power and he hits for average; he just doesn't draw quite as many walks as Manny, but he also doesn't strike out nearly as much as Manny. He's a better defensive player, much better on the bases, and he plays hard. His power numbers would also probably get a boost by Fenway. Guerrero is a terrific player and I still don't think he gets the credit he deserves.

There's nothing wrong with him -- I just feel as there wouldn't be much of a difference in production, and if there would be, it would be slight enough to not give up a player that has been with the team for 6 years and has become a fan favorite.

[Big_Yaz_Bread]

From my point of view, the most important offensive stat is bases per out. In 2006, Manny was 2nd in the AL with a bpo of 1.141 (Hafner had 1.221 and led the league for the second time in the past three years -- he's the most underrated player in baseball). Ortiz was 3rd. If you want to score lots of runs you need multiple players with a high bpo. If you have just one guy, it's too easy to pitch around him. Ortiz and Manny have provided the best run producing tandem in baseball over the past few years. Here's Manny's bpo stats since joining the Sox:

'06 1.141 2nd in league
'05 0.972 5th in league
'04 1.007 2nd in league
'03 1.029 5th in league
'02 1.178 2nd in league
'01 1.063 4th in league

With the obvious exception of Bonds, no one has come close to Manny's stats for dominance or consistency. As long as he's capable, I want him wearing a B on his cap. If Willie Mo can come into his own and give him some protection from the 5 spot the Sox would be unstoppable with the three Dominicans.

[SoxSon]

Johan Santana




The problem with including Santana on this list is that I'd be getting an entirely different set of skills back than what I'm giving up. He's great, but he's helping the offense in an entirely different way, by making their need for scoring runs lower. I'd love to have him, but I'm not sure we need him in order to do well enough in our division (with the rotation the way it looks like it will be for 2007). I do think, however, that the absence of Ramirez will/would seriously damage the offense.

Hopefully, that just made sense.

[SDL]

Send Manny to Padres. Just make sure THIS PERSON is part of the deal...

[Murderer's Row]

Who is he?

[EvanAparra]

Cla Meredith

[SDL]

Cla Meredith

...who never should have left in the first place

[EvanAparra]

...who never should have left in the first place
You're definately right there -- Worst trade of the Epstein era.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Hmm, you should probably pursue the WMP for Chad Cordero trade more than a Manny trade. Manny's a machine, and he's getting no love in the comparsion against Killebrew, he can hit to oppisite field he can pull the ball he's a beast at the dish

You don't want to give up the best hitter in the AL.

[Evangelion]

What's worse would be won't even keep Doug or Mark. So, in the end, you gave the Padres Meredith and Bard for a one year rental on Mirabelli and Loretta. Loretta might end up back with the Padres this season. Like I said, that deal looked like a steal at first, Mirabelli for Loretta and end up one of the worse deal possible since we got nothing to show for it, but loses.

[PhilWings24]

mirabelli for loretta itself was an outstanding deal.

overall though that was easily the worst deal of the theo era, you're right, not smart at all.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

I'm looking forward to have Loney, Matt Kemp and Broxton in Boston.

We would still need a SS. And I would rather wait a year instead of overpaying Lugo. Sign Loretta and let Pedroia play SS.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well what would you want position wise for Manny?

A closer
SS
Maybe another good hitter (that can be the SS too)

That sound about right?

Remember the guy's getting old and he didn't really play hard when he was in his prime either so his value may not be as high as say a Dontrelle Willis.

[Jager]

Why on earth would the Marlins want Manny's contract? They are all about salary dumping, not picking up big contracts. Whoever takes manny will likely have to take most, if not all of his contract, as well as give up some good prospects. There is no way the Marlins do that. I would love Peavy and Gonzalez for Manny though. I'd do that deal in a second, although I don't think the Padres would do it.

[Evangelion]

Lol, why in the world would the Dodgers ship off Kemp and Broxton in the same deal for Manny Ramirez? Kemp and Lonely for realistic than Broxton, who likely to be their closer after Saito gone. Dodgers won't ship their future closer and possible future star even for Ramirez. If Ramirez was slightly younger and didn't have all that baggage, then yeah, I could see that deal happening.

[ChrisLDuncan]

What happened today?

[wigglestrue]

ESPN Deportes saying Manny trade with LA could be on again.
Mentions package of maybe Penny + Broxton + I assume a hitter.

If it's Penny + Broxton + Kemp/LaRoche/Loney...Thanks for the Manny-ries.

[sharrock]

ESPN Deportes saying Manny trade with LA could be on again.
Mentions package of maybe Penny + Broxton + I assume a hitter.

If it's Penny + Broxton + Kemp/LaRoche/Loney...Thanks for the Manny-ries.

Another report says Jason Schmidt to the Dodgers. Thus maybe Penny is on to Boston, then spun off with a prospect for Chad Cordero of the nationals who are desperate for starting pitching.

Cordero as the closer, Broxton as a setup man, and Kemp as the 4th OF. I'd be game for that.

[EvanAparra]

Lol, why in the world would the Dodgers ship off Kemp and Broxton in the same deal for Manny Ramirez? Kemp and Lonely for realistic than Broxton, who likely to be their closer after Saito gone. Dodgers won't ship their future closer and possible future star even for Ramirez. If Ramirez was slightly younger and didn't have all that baggage, then yeah, I could see that deal happening.
Lol. Uh, yes they will. They offered Broxton already, with LaRoche and got turned down, now it might be a Broxton, Penny, and prospect deal.

[Evangelion]

I'm just going to assume this a bunch of hot air. The reports are once again spilt this year. Manny not being moved and Manny being moved.

Why would Boston trade Manny for Penny, Broxton and a prospect? We could just sign a one year deal with Gagne for a closer. Our rotation in good shape, if we sign Matsuzaka. The only needed person we're getting in the deal would be that prospect, that's if he could answer our needs next season.

It's likely Boston asking for Broxton and many more prospects for Manny, which the Dodgers likely won't do.

[punker268]

I wouldn't mind if the Phillies got Manny instead of stand Pat. Much better deal. Andthey get a Howard-protector

[-Kyle-]

I wouldn't mind if the Phillies got Manny instead of stand Pat. Much better deal. Andthey get a Howard-protector
Yeah, but who would we get in return?

[Evangelion]

If you're going to say Pat Burrell, think again. I'm not sure any team would like Pat Burrell on their team.

[-Kyle-]

If you're going to say Pat Burrell, think again. I'm not sure any team would like Pat Burrell on their team.
Besides a quality closer and a #5 back end starter, The Sox don't really need anything. The lineup is filled, the rotation is almost complete.

[KenFougere]

I'd be the biggest and stupidest move they could make. (since under bidding on Damon)
He's a hitting machine that produces numbers year after year which can not be duplicated by anyone . . . http://www.techwarelabs.com/community/images/smiles/nono.gif

Why break up the best 3-4 hitting combination arguably in baseball history?