civil war

[bluezebra]

Alexander Cartwright wrote the first rules, and is generally credited with "inventing" our game of baseball.

Bob

[tripledup22]

i have i question that i hope you can answer. i dont know i hope you can help me out.

did abner doubleday fight in the civil war? and if so what side? thank you

[RuthMayBond]

i have i question that i hope you can answer. i dont know i hope you can help me out.

did abner doubleday fight in the civil war?I thought he fired the first shot

[hubkittel]

according to the arlington national cemetary website (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/doubledy.htm), doubleday not only fought in the civil war but he was actually at ft. sumter when the war started. he was in the shenandoah valley, 2nd bull run, antietam, fredricksburg, chancellorsville, and gettysburg. the claim that doubleday invented baseball is nonsense but that is one heck of a military record.

[Brian McKenna]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Doubleday

[hubkittel]

I thought he fired the first shot

the story is that he fired the first shot in defense of the fort. the first shot of the war was fired by confederate artillary. who fired that shot and where specifically the shot was fired from is debatable.

i actually find the claim that doubleday fired the first shot in defense of ft. sumter to be a little dubious. it's a little too neat and just sounds like part of the mythology surrounding the man. it's possible that he ordered the shot but i find it unlikely that he actually fired it.

[supermetfan22]

i just learned about this in school and the first death was at ft sumpter.

[EvanAparra]

Is it common knowledge who DID invent baseball?

[Brian McKenna]

Is it common knowledge who DID invent baseball?

It's not even uncommon knowledge.

[EvanAparra]

It's not even uncommon knowledge.
That's too bad. It would be nice to give credit where it's due.

[Old Sweater]

That's too bad. It would be nice to give credit where it's due.

After reading about 4 or so books on the matter I just give credit to the kids game of Rounders.

[hubkittel]

the who invented baseball thing opens a can of worms bigger than asking what caused the decline of the roman empire. if you wanted to you could trace the game back to the assyrians. "bat and ball" games were played by the first colonists in america. how you get from there to the olympic club of philadelphia in the 1830's and then the new york, eagle, and knickerbocker clubs of the 1840's isn't exactly clear. i think at this point it's generally accepted that baseball wasn't invented in the sense that neismith invented basketball but rather it evolved over time.

[KCGHOST]

Doubleday was in numerous battles throughout the CW. He was fairly competent and his military career deserves respect.

[hubkittel]

Doubleday was in numerous battles throughout the CW. He was fairly competent and his military career deserves respect.

absolutely. doubleday played a prominent role on the first day at gettysburg. after john reynolds was killed, doubleday assumed command of the union's first corp and, although outnumbered, held off the confederates long enough for the army of the potomic to seize the high ground of culp's hill, cemetary ridge, and the round tops. if you read the killer angels, michael shaara portrays john buford, reynolds, and the first corp as the real heroes of gettysburg (along with joshua lawerance chamberlain). without the efforts of the first corp (lead by doubleday) on july 1st, the union likely would have been defeated at gettysburg, the army of northern virginia would have marched to washington d.c., the european powers would have recognized the c.s.a., and the north would have lost the civil war.

[Captain Cold Nose]

absolutely. doubleday played a prominent role on the first day at gettysburg. after john reynolds was killed, doubleday assumed command of the union's first corp and, although outnumbered, held off the confederates long enough for the army of the potomic to seize the high ground of culp's hill, cemetary ridge, and the round tops. if you read the killer angels, michael shaara portrays john buford, reynolds, and the first corp as the real heroes of gettysburg (along with joshua lawerance chamberlain). without the efforts of the first corp (lead by doubleday) on july 1st, the union likely would have been defeated at gettysburg, the army of northern virginia would have marched to washington d.c., the european powers would have recognized the c.s.a., and the north would have lost the civil war.
Don't forget Winfield Hancock.
Doubleday indeed commanded the first shot at Ft. Sumter, but did not physically fire it. That's what they say at Ft. Sumter, even. I don't believe anyone died that day, though.
He took a lot of heat from General George Meade, the commander of the Army of the Potomac, after the battle, serving well despite being placed in an extremely harsh situation, replacing who was probably the Union's finest general at that point in Reynolds so quickly in the engagement, as the Union lost the day. He was relegated to desk jobs for the most part after Gettysburg for the duration of the war. But he is honored with a monument in Gettysburg a very short walk from where Reynolds fell.

[Nashvol]

I thought Al Gore did...

..sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I thought Al Gore did...

..sorry, I just couldn't resist.
Gore invented the first shot of the Civil War, but he didn't fire it nor did he command it.

[KCGHOST]

The first shots at Ft. Sumter were fired by the Confederates under P.G.T. Buearegard. No fatalities were suffered during the actual siege of the fort, however a Union gunnery sergeant was killed when a cannon exploded during the surrender ceremonies.

A lot of writers have tried to portray that a rebel victory at Gettysburg would have resulted in them winning of the war. This is almost certainly untrue. Even in defeat the Union Army would still have been between the Confederates and Washington, D.C. Nor would a victory have brought significant foreign recognition. The Emancipation Proclamation had taken care of that. In England, while the government was pro-Southern, the people were extremely anti-salvery. Any move by the English government to recognize a pro-slavery government when an anti-salvery government was the option could have resulted in the incumbent English government being turned out.

[Captain Cold Nose]

The first shots at Ft. Sumter were fired by the Confederates under P.G.T. Buearegard. No fatalities were suffered during the actual siege of the fort, however a Union gunnery sergeant was killed when a cannon exploded during the surrender ceremonies.

A lot of writers have tried to portray that a rebel victory at Gettysburg would have resulted in them winning of the war. This is almost certainly untrue. Even in defeat the Union Army would still have been between the Confederates and Washington, D.C. Nor would a victory have brought significant foreign recognition. The Emancipation Proclamation had taken care of that. In England, while the government was pro-Southern, the people were extremely anti-salvery. Any move by the English government to recognize a pro-slavery government when an anti-salvery government was the option could have resulted in the incumbent English government being turned out.
Of course, the fact it was the first Union shot, in retaliation, has kind of been pushed away through time. But it was Doubleday nonetheless.

The more important victory took place one day later, when Vicksburg was surrendered to Grant. But the Gettysburg battle's place in history as the turning point of the war has been overstated. An even greater threat to Washington would occur about a year later in Maryland, but that's for another site.

To bring this back to baseball, I recently read a lot of confederate soldiers were exposed to baseball via observing Union soldiers playing in prison camps. There was no comment either way on whether or not Johnny Reb took the field with Billy Yank or not.

[hubkittel]

The first shots at Ft. Sumter were fired by the Confederates under P.G.T. Buearegard. No fatalities were suffered during the actual siege of the fort, however a Union gunnery sergeant was killed when a cannon exploded during the surrender ceremonies.

A lot of writers have tried to portray that a rebel victory at Gettysburg would have resulted in them winning of the war. This is almost certainly untrue. Even in defeat the Union Army would still have been between the Confederates and Washington, D.C. Nor would a victory have brought significant foreign recognition. The Emancipation Proclamation had taken care of that. In England, while the government was pro-Southern, the people were extremely anti-salvery. Any move by the English government to recognize a pro-slavery government when an anti-salvery government was the option could have resulted in the incumbent English government being turned out.

the first shots of the war were definately fired by a battery under buearegard's command but whether buearegard actually gave the order to fire is a matter of debate. also, whether the shots came from the battery or from james island is also debated. i lived on james island for a few years and the folks there like to claim that the first shot came from there.

as to the results of a confederate victory at gettysburg, you make good points but the army of the potomac was in no condition, after a victory, to pursue lee's army. after a defeat, especially if the south had seized the high ground on day one and the union was forced into fredrickburg-like frontal assults, they would have been virtually destroyed with nothing to stop lee from moving towards washington. i'm not saying he would have taken washington and i don't even think it would have been necessary. even with the grant's victory at vicksburg, the psychological effect of lee's army victorious on northern soil, with the army of the potomac in ruins, after lee's victories at fredricksburg and chancellersville would have been too much for the north. the european powers would have stepped in at that point to try and force a diplomatic solution on the two sides (and that would have, of course, involved diplomatic recognition of the c.s.a.).

this is all speculation of course. but i think it's arguable that doubleday's actions on july 1st, 1863 helped save the union. he certainly wasn't alone (and hancock certainly deserves mention) but the actions of all those union soldiers who were at gettysburg early in the battle when the numbers were against them deserve all the respect we can give them.

[hubkittel]

To bring this back to baseball, I recently read a lot of confederate soldiers were exposed to baseball via observing Union soldiers playing in prison camps. There was no comment either way on whether or not Johnny Reb took the field with Billy Yank or not.

by 1866-68, there are southern teams in the naabbp as well as other southern amateur teams not affiliated with the association. specifically, there are references to teams in virginia, tennessee, alabama, and louisiana. but the development of "organized baseball" seems to mostly be a northern phenomenon.

off the top of my head i was thinking that this was largely due to the lack of urban centers in the south but in the north you had all kind of dinky towns with association teams. i was also thinking that an underdeveloped transportation system in the south hindered the spread of the game. but maybe the civil war, by physically and psychologically seperating the south from the north during the crucial period when the game was spreading exponentially across the country, hindered the development of the game in the south. it would be interesting if the civil war, which helped spread the game in the north, actually hindered the spread of the game across the entire nation. i can imagine those southern fellows who brought the game back from northern prison camps took a lot of grief for playing a "yankee" game.

[Captain Cold Nose]

by 1866-68, there are southern teams in the naabbp as well as other southern amateur teams not affiliated with the association. specifically, there are references to teams in virginia, tennessee, alabama, and louisiana. but the development of "organized baseball" seems to mostly be a northern phenomenon.

off the top of my head i was thinking that this was largely due to the lack of urban centers in the south but in the north you had all kind of dinky towns with association teams. i was also thinking that an underdeveloped transportation system in the south hindered the spread of the game. but maybe the civil war, by physically and psychologically seperating the south from the north during the crucial period when the game was spreading exponentially across the country, hindered the development of the game in the south. it would be interesting if the civil war, which helped spread the game in the north, actually hindered the spread of the game across the entire nation. i can imagine those southern fellows who brought the game back from northern prison camps took a lot of grief for playing a "yankee" game.
Thanks for helping bring it back, Hub. As someone who'll be visiting Gettysburg, Antietam, Harper's Ferry and Monocacy in the next couple days, it's a topic of great interest. But let's not get carried away. ;)

[TonyK]

Gore invented the first shot of the Civil War, but he didn't fire it nor did he command it.

But he studied it and wrote a book about it. His movie Inconvenient Shot is due out at Christmas.

[Aa3rt]

There are a couple of books available on the subject of the Civil War (AKA The War Between The States, depending on your geographic orientation) and baseball.

You may enjoy:

Baseball in Blue and Gray: The National Pastime during the Civil War by George B. Kirsch

From Pastime to Passion: Baseball and the Civil War by Patricia E. Millen

Check out Borders or Amazon for availability.

Here's a photo of Union prisioners playing baseball at a Confederate prison camp in Salsbury, North Carolina:

Civil War Baseball in North Carolina (http://www.19cbaseball.com/civilWarBaseball.html)

[Brian McKenna]

There are a couple of books available on the subject of the Civil War (AKA The War Between The States, depending on your geographic orientation) and baseball.

You may enjoy:

Baseball in Blue and Gray: The National Pastime during the Civil War by George B. Kirsch

From Pastime to Passion: Baseball and the Civil War by Patricia E. Millen

Check out Borders or Amazon for availability.

Here's a photo of Union prisioners playing baseball at a Confederate prison camp in Salsbury, North Carolina:

Civil War Baseball in North Carolina (http://www.19cbaseball.com/civilWarBaseball.html)

and When Johnny Came Sliding Home

[hellborn]

the who invented baseball thing opens a can of worms bigger than asking what caused the decline of the roman empire...

Hub, the Roman question is easy. The Roman Empire declined because of poor trades...specifically, trading all of their gold and silver for silk and spices.

[JamesWest]

i have i question that i hope you can answer. i dont know i hope you can help me out.

did abner doubleday fight in the civil war? and if so what side? thank you

You need to check out a place called a library.

[Captain Cold Nose]

You need to check out a place called a library.
That's good advice, in general. And who knows, Doubleday's own book, Chancellorsville and Gettysburg might be available. But hey, when you're already at the store and and all you want is a half pint of milk, you don't need to go to a dairy farm.

[hubkittel]

Hub, the Roman question is easy. The Roman Empire declined because of poor trades...specifically, trading all of their gold and silver for silk and spices.

if it was that simple gibbons wouldn't have done six volumes on the subject and i never would have been forced to read henri pirenne. but lets not get started on this. the civil war, the decline of the roman empire, and baseball-there's a reason i love baseball fever. :laugh

[Williamsburg2599]

It's not even uncommon knowledge.
I thought Alexander Cartwright Jr. did.... or atleast he was the closest to being the one who "invented" baseball?

[hubkittel]

I thought Alexander Cartwright Jr. did.... or atleast he was the closest to being the one who "invented" baseball?

not exactly. cartwright was involved in the organizing of the knickerbocker club in 1845 and the codification of their rules for playing the game. to say that this was the "invention" of baseball ignores all the other forms of the game and groups like the olympic club in philadelphia (which was organized in the early 1830's).

but the knickerbocker club wasn't even the first baseball club in new york-the new york club and eagle club both predated the knickerbockers by several years. even within the knickerbocker club, cartwright gets too much credit. daniel adams had as much to do with setting up the rules for the "new york game" as anyone else.

sabr's baseball biography project has a nice essay on adams written by john thorn: http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=639&pid=16943 (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=639&pid=16943)

here's the first paragraph:

"The history of baseball is a lie from beginning to end, from its creation myth to its rosy models of commerce, community, and fair play. The conventional tale of the game's birth is substantially incorrect-not just the Doubleday fable, pointless to attack, but even the scarcely less legendary development of the Knickerbocker game, ostensibly sired by Alexander Cartwright."

[Brian McKenna]

What is even the definition of "invented baseball?"

-Is it the people who first put a stick to a dead animal's bone?
-The first ones to stand at one location, toss a rock or whatever to a person with a stick and have "fielders" ready to retrieve said object?
-Does it involved the ones to formalize a set of rules and establish a team or league, even though the game itself already existed? (Alexander Cartwright, Henry Chadwick)
-Was it a university?
-Is it an American hero like Abner Doubleday or a long forgotten Englishman who brought use rounders?
-Is it the contributors who helped established organized baseball as we know it today? (William Hulbert, Harry Wright)
-Is it men who gave interviews and claimed credit decades later for bringing the game out of its infancy? (Doc Adams, Albert Spalding)

[hubkittel]

What is even the definition of "invented baseball?"

-Is it the people who first put a stick to a dead animal's bone?
-The first ones to stand at one location, toss a rock or whatever to a person with a stick and have "fielders" ready to retrieve said object?
-Does it involved the ones to formalize a set of rules and establish a team or league, even though the game itself already existed? (Alexander Cartwright, Henry Chadwick)
-Was it a university?
-Is it an American hero like Abner Doubleday or a long forgotten Englishman who brought use rounders?
-Is it the contributors who helped established organized baseball as we know it today? (William Hulbert, Harry Wright)
-Is it men who gave interviews and claimed credit decades later for bringing the game out of its infancy? (Doc Adams, Albert Spalding)

i said earlier that this would open a can of worms. :D

[TonyK]

What is even the definition of "invented baseball?"

-Is it the people who first put a stick to a dead animal's bone?
-The first ones to stand at one location, toss a rock or whatever to a person with a stick and have "fielders" ready to retrieve said object?
-Does it involved the ones to formalize a set of rules and establish a team or league, even though the game itself already existed? (Alexander Cartwright, Henry Chadwick)
-Was it a university?
-Is it an American hero like Abner Doubleday or a long forgotten Englishman who brought use rounders?
-Is it the contributors who helped established organized baseball as we know it today? (William Hulbert, Harry Wright)
-Is it men who gave interviews and claimed credit decades later for bringing the game out of its infancy? (Doc Adams, Albert Spalding)

Dr. Naismith is credited with "inventing" basketball in Springfield, MA at a YMCA I think. He supposedly took two Canadian games he played as a child and merged them into basketball so the kids could run around indoors at the YMCA gym. The kids loved his new game and the rest is history.

Now all we have to figure out is who was the person who took the rounders game and One O'Cat and whatever else to combine them into what was called the "New York" game?

[JamesWest]

What is even the definition of "invented baseball?"

-Is it the people who first put a stick to a dead animal's bone?
-The first ones to stand at one location, toss a rock or whatever to a person with a stick and have "fielders" ready to retrieve said object?
-Does it involved the ones to formalize a set of rules and establish a team or league, even though the game itself already existed? (Alexander Cartwright, Henry Chadwick)
-Was it a university?
-Is it an American hero like Abner Doubleday or a long forgotten Englishman who brought use rounders?
-Is it the contributors who helped established organized baseball as we know it today? (William Hulbert, Harry Wright)
-Is it men who gave interviews and claimed credit decades later for bringing the game out of its infancy? (Doc Adams, Albert Spalding)

Like mankind, I believe that baseball evolved and was not created.

[hubkittel]

Like mankind, I believe that baseball evolved and was not created.

i agree with that. baseball, rather than being invented out of whole cloth in one brillant flash of genius, developed over time. you can trace the game to the colonial era when it existed in various forms and under a variety of names. how you get from ancient ball and bat games to rounders and one old cat and base is one question. how you get from those games to the new york game in the 1840's is another. if you want to expand the definition of "invention", you could look at the transition from amatuers to pros and from the early pro teams and associations to the major leagues. it's all part of the same evolutionary process.

[Nashvol]

It's scriptural: "In the big inning..." (Genesis 1:1)

[yanks0714]

Thanks for helping bring it back, Hub. As someone who'll be visiting Gettysburg, Antietam, Harper's Ferry and Monocacy in the next couple days, it's a topic of great interest. But let's not get carried away. ;)

Let me know what you thought of your visits. I grew up about 25 miles from Gettysburg. Been there many a time (my first date with my future wife was to the battlefield, duh). Gettysburg has become very commercialized although the battlefield has been preserved fairly well. Antietam is a great site. It's very easy to read the guideposts, look, and imagine what actually took place. Harper's Ferry is a good place to visit to take you back to a time of the CW. Never been to Monocacy.

[TonyK]

It's scriptural: "In the big inning..." (Genesis 1:1)

"In the big inning there was a sacrifice, the fisherman hauled in a big catch, the apostles moved ahead of the gentiles, and all the poor souls prayed for a miracle comeback. Thus they all put on red socks to signify their allegiance."

[Nashvol]

My sermon today, said Reverend Jones,
is baseball and whence it came.
Now, if you take the Good Book and you take a good look,
you will find the first Baseball Game.

It says Eve stole first, Adam second.
Solomon umpired the game.
Rebecca went to the well with a pitcher,
And Ruth in the field made a name.
Goliath was struck out by David
A base hit was made on Abel by Cain,
And the Prodigal Son made a great home-run.
Brother Noah gave checks out for rain.

Jonah wailed — went down swinging.
Later he popped up again.
A lion-drive by ole Nebuchadnezzar
Made Daniel warm-up in the pen.
Delilah was pitching to Samson,
When he brought down the house with a clout,
And the Angels that day made a double-play
That’s when Adam and Eve were thrown out.

Ole St. Pete was checking errors,
Also had charge of the gate.
Salome sacrificed Big John the Baptist
Who wound up ahead on the plate.
Satan was pitching that apple
And looked as though he might fan ‘em all,
But then Joshua let go a mighty blow
And blasted one right at the wall.

And then the Lord wound up and took good aim,
And started the very First Baseball Game.
And, now we all know the way that the game was begun,
And to this very day - it’s still Number One!

Published: The Sporting News (1981)