Need a change-up

[CanadianKid]

Pitchers should learn a curveball before they are 16 but it should be thrown under a limit until they are fully developped. The early they learn to properly throw one the more successfull they will be.

[R_MIOK]

I'm 15 play JV baseball did pretty good last year in freshman with a fastball and slider (went 6-2) but i need to learn how to throw a change-up. I know the grips to throw it but it dosent break or even slow down at all (so my dad says) any links or tips?

Thanks.

[wogdoggy]

heres a decent tip...dont quit.change ups take a heckuva long time to develop and throw consistently so dont be discouraged .Play catch using the change up grip until you get a feel keep playing catch using the grip and then play catch so more.

Ok heres a way that a COACH in the chicagoland area who was taught the maddux change.to get a feel for what has to happen..HOLD the ball just like a fastball but use your TWO MIDDLE FINGERS ONLY...hold the ball down at your side with the two fingers and move the wrist up and down so you get used to feeling the ball with just those two fingers..kinda like when you dribble a basketball..NEXT place the outer fingers around the ball and EXPERIMENT with different movement BY moving the pinky up and down on the side...see how it works with the pinky riding high,,,,see how it acts when the pinky is more under the ball..BIGGEST TIP...AIM LOW AND LET THE BALL RELEASE IN FRONT..and throw just like a fastball without saying of course...HAVE CONFIDECE and AIM LOW let go out in front..and PRACTICE..it may not come for you until maybe 100 throws at first but eventually you'll get it

[EdmondsFan#1]

Yeah, changeups take a long time to learn. I have pretty much quit on my changeup because it only goes about 2 mph slower with no control. But i quit it because i have a great curveball and fastball, and im a lefty, so i dont really need it that much. But i encourage you not to quit on yours, especially if you are a righty. And try to stick to one grip so you can master it quicker and get used to the feel of it. Circle-changes tend to have more movement also, and i believe the circle change is the most popular form. I know that Anthony Reyes uses a circle change (he slows it down 17 mph with sick movement) and I know that Trevor Hoffman uses the palmball.

[R_MIOK]

thanks alot man...im gonna start throwing right now :D

[Jose Reyes]

It's probably your grip. My changeup really didn't go any slower than my fastball but then I learned a new one and it's a lot better and goes at a good speed. Try a whole bunch of grips and find which one works. I'm not completely sure if it has anything to do with the size of the pitcher's hands or fingers or anything but some grips just work for some and others don't.

[R_MIOK]

It's probably your grip. My changeup really didn't go any slower than my fastball but then I learned a new one and it's a lot better and goes at a good speed. Try a whole bunch of grips and find which one works. I'm not completely sure if it has anything to do with the size of the pitcher's hands or fingers or anything but some grips just work for some and others don't.which one works for you the best?

[R_MIOK]

or if anybody can tell me which one they think is the best at my level..

[Jose Reyes]

I put my middle and ring fingers over the seams just like your index and middle finger would be if it was a 4 seam fastball. My thumb goes under the ball and the tip of my index finger is on the knuckle of my thumb off of the ball. My pinky is off the ball.

Also make sure to not hold it too tight.

[R_MIOK]

alright thanks ill try that out

[punker268]

Just give it a little more back-spin. It's not supposed to break anywhere.

[chesspirate]

pick any grip you want, but cock your wrist back and keep it that way throughout the delivery, no 'snap'. That ball has to go slower.

another tip, stomp your stride leg into landing, it's an ineficient movement and wont allow as much energy to the throw as a 'normal' delivery

[wogdoggy]

pick any grip you want, but cock your wrist back and keep it that way throughout the delivery, no 'snap'. That ball has to go slower.

another tip, stomp your stride leg into landing, it's an ineficient movement and wont allow as much energy to the throw as a 'normal' delivery


stomp your stride?
no snap ?

[Chris O'Leary]

another tip, stomp your stride leg into landing, it's an ineficient movement and wont allow as much energy to the throw as a 'normal' delivery

While this might work against younger or less experienced hitters, the problem is that good hitters may be able to notice the difference and get a sense of which pitch is coming.

I have my guys throw their change-ups EXACTLY like their fastballs, but with a different grip.

[chesspirate]

MLB pitcher(Former) Chris Hammond brought up the 'stomp' in an interview. The guy doesn't throw hard, just throws junk and that's what he did, in the bigs...

As for the no 'snap', i mean don't throw the ball naturally really, just keep that wrist cocked througout.

[Dev518]

I grip my change-up tight and don't snap my wrist. Ideveloped it by myself and it's definately slower than my fastball, but I've had alot of problems with control.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Changeups should be thrown exactly like your fastball, you have no idea what tiny little thing you could be doing different that could be tipping you off which is pretty much a free hit. Trust me, you might get away with it in high school but when you reach the college level they will be more observant. (And probably at the Senior Varsity level too...)

Do not grip the ball so tight, it loses movement and loses control. Remember that, looseness equals speed and movement, so it depends if you want to sacrifice speed on your changeup for movement or movement on your changeup for speed. So, i would just grip it right in between really. Also, gripping it too tight might alter your arm motion if it feels unnatural to you.

No snap of the wrist might slow down your arm speed. The key to a changeup is having the same arm speed as your fastball. If your arm speeds changes, that is the biggest tip of them all. I know that, I personally, would lose much arm speed. Remember, what does snapping of the wrist give you on your fastball? Movement and speed. So it brings me back to the, do you want to sacrifice movement on your changeup for speed? And, movement isn't the ball slowly drifting to the side by the way. Good movement should not drift (like having no snap of the wrist will probably get you)... This makes the location pretty obvious if they can keep back on it, and might not get you the groundout needed in some situations.

Hitters say that Trevor Hoffman's changeup seems like it's being pulled back by a string (Fading action.). As I stated before, he uses a palmball. Fading action on your changeup would be a killer thing to have especially at the HS level but, good luck getting it. I don't even know how to do it but i'm sure it has alot to do with release point, hiding the ball, arm angle, etc.

No offense to anyone, but just so you know R_MIOK chris o'leary is probably the most intelligent person here on pitching and his advice sounds the most... un-argueable, to me.

[chesspirate]

here's a photo of Hoffman's grip, pretty much unchanged since he started using it.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Grip.jpg

the following is taken from wikipedia so it's not me writing it...
However, for all intents and purposes, Hoffman is a two-pitch pitcher, alternating between fastballs and changeups. It is the arm action on the change up and the way that the pitch drops just before it reaches the plate (almost as if someone was pulling on a string attached to the pitch) that has allowed Hoffman to be as successful as he has been over the years.

Trevor Hoffman learned the change up, which he actually throws with a palmball [3] grip instead of a circle changeup grip, from teammate Donnie Elliott during the 1994 player's strike and began using the pitch in 1995 when he did not have his best fastball because he was pitching most of the year with a torn rotator cuff. Hoffman opted to pitch through the pain and have surgery in the off-season rather than end his season early. He came back the following year to throw in the low 90's, with a tight curveball and that terrific changeup, which reportedly made his fastball look as if was going 110 mph. The key to the pitch, Hoffman explains in the September 11, 2006 edition of ESPN The Magazine, is how he pinches the seam of the ball with his thumb and index finger as he releases it. He throws the changeup with the arm speed used to throw a fastball, the hitter thinks it's a fastball, it looks like a fastball. But when the hitter starts to swing, the ball is still yards away from the plate

[chesspirate]

another link talking about the Hoffman changeup with a pic of the grip in action.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050304&content_id=957212&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd

and, another link to an article about changeups...

http://experts.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=134436

[-Kyle-]

Are change ups really that hard? I throw relatively hard (65-75 fastball) and can throw two changeups that don't break, one around 50-55 (palmball) and the other 40-50 (slower arm motion) (. I still can't throw a curveball accurately though.) I never really had to practice it. :o

[EdmondsFan#1]

Are change ups really that hard? I throw relatively hard (65-75 fastball) and can throw two changeups that don't break, one around 50-55 (palmball) and the other 40-50 (slower arm motion) (. I still can't throw a curveball accurately though.) I never really had to practice it. :o


You are 13 years old don't even to try to throw a curveball unless your biological age is 16 or older. I'm not even joking.

I heard of a man who's father had died at a young age so he never had an old man to tell him not to throw junk, he was throwing screwballs, forkballs, slurves, and curves by the age of 13. Later in a game when he was only 15 years old he threw a pitch and his arm fell out of socket. He commented on a pitching instructor's webpage saying how he was happy his son would not have to have the same fate as he did. I hope you learn something from that, because you may very well have the same fate if you're trying to throw curves.

And trust me, I don't know one curveball thrower in my league that was 13-15 that threw a curve that I didn't slam on. (Vast majority of curves from a 13 year old don't break. They hang.)

[EdmondsFan#1]

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to say that if you choose the palmball grip, the further you push the ball into your palm the slower it will be. This is because the further it is in your palm the more friction there is when it is released, which is why you should hold a fastball on your fingertips.

[chesspirate]

it's funny Edmonds that you don't throw a changeup, but act like THE authority on how to throw one.

I throw one, and i'm in an adult hardball league, not little league, i throw what was taught to me as a 'drawstring' it's held higher in the hand than a palmball, relaxed grip with my wrist cocked back. I don't do the Hammond 'stomp' personally but i have tried it, just didn't work for me.

As far as hitter recognizing things, i've played against guys that have played baseball thier whole lives, even guys that i've played with before who know i throw the changeup who now play against me have a hard time with it. Trust me on one thing, most people can't pick up on arm speed unless there is a drastic difference. If you have the same arm angle though, that's important, it's easier to pick up location than speed, the brain figures location first (can't remember the study, but it's scientific or something).

How about this... Try it, try that, try anything, you'll find what works and what doesn't.

Have fun

[EdmondsFan#1]

it's funny Edmonds that you don't throw a changeup, but act like THE authority on how to throw one.

There is a big difference between knowing and doing. If you are so Fu--ing mature and more intelligent I guess you would know that, wouldn't you?

Here's some more advice: Don't waste your time argueing with me. I'm not hear to argue with people over the internet. I'm here to give advice to the one's asking. More advice, you act like your can't smell the sh-- on your own knees, I suppose you have heard that saying before if you are so much more intelligent and knowledgable. Mens' hardball league, eh? That makes so you professional? I might be sounding like a hypocrite, but I spend about an hour a day making long posts trying to be informative and helpful. I never said that he had to take my advice and if you don't want to then you don't have to. And actually, you will not see a post from me where I'm not completely sure of what I am talking about, I stay out of conversations that I don't know anything about. But I guess your ego is so large what a younger one has to say means nothing to you. Anyway, have fun with that mens' volunteer hardball league :dance .

Edit: And of course JakePatterson is going to come along and delete this post and probably ban me.

[CanadianKid]

I throw my change up using the basic circle change grip. I make a circle with my index and thumb and put my middle and ring finger on top of the ball along the seams and my pink on the side to hold the ball in place. It's roughly 15mph slower than my fastball with sink at the end. To get the sink I turn the ball so that the "circle" I've created wit my thumb and index points upward and when thrown the seams spin in such a way that a circle is visible.

Honestly a good change up is a valuable pitch to have at any age, it does not damage the arm as say a curve or slider would and throws off the hitters timing if thrown after a well place fastball. So if your 13-14 I'd say work on your change up before moving up to curves and sliders.

[chesspirate]

Here's some more advice: Don't waste your time argueing with me.
You're right, it is a waste of time.

I'm not hear to argue with people over the internet.
Funny, because that's what you're doing.

I'm here to give advice to the one's asking.
As long as they know that you don't throw the changeup in little league...

More advice, you act like your can't smell the sh-- on your own knees, I suppose you have heard that saying before if you are so much more intelligent and knowledgable.
This is expected. Had to go to somewhat harsher language to be noticed and sound tough. And smelling my own is something i actually can do, because i throw the pitch and have lived and died by it.

Mens' hardball league, eh? That makes so you professional? And little league does? All I was bringing up was experience. No matter what level you play at, the more you do it over the years, the more experience you get, plain and simple.

I might be sounding like a hypocrite, but I spend about an hour a day making long posts trying to be informative and helpful.
You do sound like a hypocrite, glad you caught that. And just because you spend a lot of time posting has nothing to do with the materials value.

I never said that he had to take my advice and if you don't want to then you don't have to.
Funny, I said the same darn thing, When i said "Try it, try that, try anything, you'll find what works and what doesn't"

And actually, you will not see a post from me where I'm not completely sure of what I am talking about, I stay out of conversations that I don't know anything about.
But again, you don't throw the thing, then were quick to cover it up by saying "but i don't have to 'cause i'm a lefty" (to that effect at least)

But I guess your ego is so large what a younger one has to say means nothing to you.
You obviously have issues with the age thing, it's come up before. Probably because you speak like an old salt of a coach, like you've been doing it for 40 yr's, working with all different types of players. Even though, in reality, you haven't.
I have no problem listening to what a younger person has to say, as long as they don't act like everything they say is the be-all end-all truth.

Anyway, have fun with that mens' volunteer hardball league :dance .
Thanks! It's a blast! I manage my own team, Y'know, hold tryouts, hold practices, shedule games with the league, take care of the fields, keep all the teams equipment, write the lineups, hit infield/outfield practice, and still play. What do you suggest i do otherwise? Sit in front of a TV and do nothing? And as far as i'm concerned, little league is volunteer as well. Not untill High School can anyone give attitude like you're giving and even at that level, it's a stretch. I played highschool ball. I played highschool ball with guys in the the minor leagues, and i worked out with a couple of MLB (current and former) players that hung out at the time... I doesn't mean jack as far as i'm concerned. All it says about me is... I played with those guys, nothing more! I learned a little bit from them, but it doesn't mean i'm some great player, or i'd be in the minors too.

Edit: And of course JakePatterson is going to come along and delete this post and probably ban me.
Just watch the language and you'll be allright. Oh yeah, and maybee grow up a bit and stop acting like a teenager. Then noboby would call you out on it.

[slugger33]

http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/images/pg_three_finger_changeup.jpg

That's how I grip mine. This is from http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_grips.htm

"Three-finger changeup

By STEVEN ELLIS | The Complete Pitcher®

How to Grip and Throw a Three-Finger ChangeupA THREE-FINGER CHANGEUP is a good off-speed pitch for younger baseball pitchers — and for those who do not have big hands.

To throw an effective three-finger changeup, center your ring, middle, and index fingers on top of the baseball (as shown in the third picture at right).

Your thumb and pinky finger should be placed on the smooth leather directly underneath the baseball (as shown in the middle picture).

A lot of pitchers that I work with like to "touch" their pinky and thumb when gripping this pitch (as shown in the middle picture). It helps to develop a good "feel" for the pitch, which is important since the changeup is a finesse pitch.

OK, now that you've got your grip, hold the baseball deep in the palm of your hand to maximize friction and to "de-centralize" the force of the baseball when the pitch is released. This helps take speed off of the pitch.

Throw it like you would a fastball: Same mechanics. Same arm speed. Same everything.

One way to develop "fastball mechanics" but changeup speed is to practice throwing your changeup as you long toss (throwing beyond 90 feet). Alternate fastballs and changeups at 90-or-more feet for about 20 throws a couple of times a week.

Note: Advanced pitchers can experiment with "turning the ball over" to create even more movement on the pitch. To do this, pronate your throwing hand (turn it over as if you were giving your catcher a "thumbs down" hand signal) as you throw the pitch."

[wogdoggy]

HEY edmonds fan..your way off base her kid..You are embarrassing us good cardinals fans..show some respect to guys that know at least 10 times what you do..

btw its not too late for you to be a cub fan...good riddance:radio

[EdmondsFan#1]

HEY edmonds fan..your way off base her kid..You are embarrassing us good cardinals fans..show some respect to guys that know at least 10 times what you do..

btw its not too late for you to be a cub fan...good riddance:radio

yeah, ok, whatever.

what i'm trying to say is he plays mens' hardball league, he has no chance of making minors now. I am still young, who knows how far I can get with what I know...

[chesspirate]

man, argue with a clear point.

Age and potential still don't help you here.
Nobody debated your 'skills' or what you claim to be able to do, just your posts

[kylebee]

I'm 15 play JV baseball did pretty good last year in freshman with a fastball and slider (went 6-2) but i need to learn how to throw a change-up. I know the grips to throw it but it dosent break or even slow down at all (so my dad says) any links or tips?

Thanks.

My first advice to you (as a 23 year old that wishes he had his HS days back!) is to keep working hard!

I now throw a fastball/change/slider combination (used to throw fastball/curve/cutter), and after experimenting with a lot of changeups, I found that the circle change is my most comfortable grip. Hold the ball deep in your hand and let the index finger and thumb form a not-fully-closed "okay" sign over the two close seams of the ball.

When you throw the pitch, keep thinking "fastball fastball fastball" and do NOT alter your delivery. You don't want to tip the pitch at all! Throwing the change with the regular fastball arm slot and action is what you want to do every single time - let the grip do the work. Remember to finish out front, and the pronation of the arm and the sinking motion will come naturally. Don't force it!

[kylebee]

You are 13 years old don't even to try to throw a curveball unless your biological age is 16 or older. I'm not even joking.

This is ridiculous advice. I have coached JV and Little League kids who have had excellent curveballs at age 13-14 with natural over-the-top movement and great mechanics.

The curveball, when thrown properly, is not any more stressful on your arm than any other pitch. It's all about perfecting mechanics.

Now, should most young kids throw curveballs? Probably not - but that's because they don't have coaching or the dedication to work on mechanics first before glamorous things like movement and velocity. However, blanket statements like "don't work on a curveball unless your biological age is 16 or older" are never accurate.

[EdmondsFan#1]

This is ridiculous advice. I have coached JV and Little League kids who have had excellent curveballs at age 13-14 with natural over-the-top movement and great mechanics.

The curveball, when thrown properly, is not any more stressful on your arm than any other pitch. It's all about perfecting mechanics.

Now, should most young kids throw curveballs? Probably not - but that's because they don't have coaching or the dedication to work on mechanics first before glamorous things like movement and velocity. However, blanket statements like "don't work on a curveball unless your biological age is 16 or older" are never accurate.

News flash, most kids don't have perfect mechanics, not even good mechanics. Alot of major leaguers don't even have perfect mechanics. Most guys I talk to that have been throwing curveballs since 12-13 have blew out their elbows by the time they were in college ball. I'm not saying they can't throw good curveballs, (even though most can't anyway), but that is usually good for the short run not the long run.

[slugger33]

You are 13 years old don't even to try to throw a curveball unless your biological age is 16 or older. I'm not even joking.

I heard of a man who's father had died at a young age so he never had an old man to tell him not to throw junk, he was throwing screwballs, forkballs, slurves, and curves by the age of 13. Later in a game when he was only 15 years old he threw a pitch and his arm fell out of socket. He commented on a pitching instructor's webpage saying how he was happy his son would not have to have the same fate as he did. I hope you learn something from that, because you may very well have the same fate if you're trying to throw curves.

And trust me, I don't know one curveball thrower in my league that was 13-15 that threw a curve that I didn't slam on. (Vast majority of curves from a 13 year old don't break. They hang.)
What are you talking about Edmonds fan? You are like 13 too, and you are trying to learn how to throw a screwball in another thread.

[EdmondsFan#1]

What are you talking about Edmonds fan? You are like 13 too, and you are trying to learn how to throw a screwball in another thread.

yes, i am like 13 too, but i already told you i was learning to pronate the wrist for a changeup not a screwball.

[bronxkid]

Don't waste your time with this fool. You are still working hard and having fun playing ball. That's what it is all about. He is a Mike Marshall lover and these guys believe that you should throw a screwball instead of a curveball before you are 16? What a joke. Let them follow MikeMarshall and get stuck at 86mph.

By the way, I couldn't make it to stadium golf today the son had a lesson with a Professional Instructor not these fly by night internet gurus!

Take care and I will catch up with you next time in San Dawg.

[-Kyle-]

You are 13 years old don't even to try to throw a curveball unless your biological age is 16 or older. I'm not even joking.

I heard of a man who's father had died at a young age so he never had an old man to tell him not to throw junk, he was throwing screwballs, forkballs, slurves, and curves by the age of 13. Later in a game when he was only 15 years old he threw a pitch and his arm fell out of socket. He commented on a pitching instructor's webpage saying how he was happy his son would not have to have the same fate as he did. I hope you learn something from that, because you may very well have the same fate if you're trying to throw curves.

And trust me, I don't know one curveball thrower in my league that was 13-15 that threw a curve that I didn't slam on. (Vast majority of curves from a 13 year old don't break. They hang.)
Ok, but I'm 14. I won't try a curve. Are all breaking pitches bad on the arm? I

[EdmondsFan#1]

Ok, but I'm 14. I won't try a curve. Are all breaking pitches bad on the arm? I


Go ahead and try a curve if you want, nm. Since everyone is against me on this, you might just want to ask a pitching instructor instead of listening to people that could be anybody on the internet... And, yes, pretty much all breaking pitches are bad for your arm. But it has more to do with how you throw them then what they are. I can throw a slider-like pitch but I do not turn over my wrist, or pronate the wrist, or bend my elbow in any way. I just grip it like a curveball and throw it just like I would my curveball, and it does not hurt my arm and I haven't had any arm problems with it. Sinkers are not harmful for your arm if you consider that a breaking pitch, sinker is pretty much a 2-seamer but how I grip mine is I grip it like a 2 seamer but move my fingers up so they're going up the horseshoe part (if that makes sense.). You can put pressure on either finger to affect the movement.

The breaking pitches that are most harmful for your arm is a screwball and (I think) a split finger fastball. Both will tear up your elbow.

And, bronxkid, I am not a Mike Marshall follower, I think you should definetly throw a curveball before a screwball and I think you should never throw a screwball. I read an article that asks Tampa Bay Devil Rays pitching coach, Hernandez, why he does not believe pitchers should throw a screwball and he shows the interviewer a long scar he has from surgery by throwing the screwball.

I think you should not throw a curveball until 16 years old because that's what I was taught, if you disagree then say what you want, I don't know why I would listen to you rather then my father who played college ball for a D1 college... No offense.

[-Kyle-]

Go ahead and try a curve if you want, nm. Since everyone is against me on this, you might just want to ask a pitching instructor instead of listening to people that could be anybody on the internet... And, yes, pretty much all breaking pitches are bad for your arm. But it has more to do with how you throw them then what they are. I can throw a slider-like pitch but I do not turn over my wrist, or pronate the wrist, or bend my elbow in any way. I just grip it like a curveball and throw it just like I would my curveball, and it does not hurt my arm and I haven't had any arm problems with it. Sinkers are not harmful for your arm if you consider that a breaking pitch, sinker is pretty much a 2-seamer but how I grip mine is I grip it like a 2 seamer but move my fingers up so they're going up the horseshoe part (if that makes sense.). You can put pressure on either finger to affect the movement.

The breaking pitches that are most harmful for your arm is a screwball and (I think) a split finger fastball. Both will tear up your elbow.

And, bronxkid, I am not a Mike Marshall follower, I think you should definetly throw a curveball before a screwball and I think you should never throw a screwball. I read an article that asks Florida Marlins pitching coach, Hernandez, why he does not believe pitchers should throw a screwball and he shows the interviewer a long scar he has from surgery by throwing the screwball.

I think you should not throw a curveball until 16 years old because that's what I was taught, if you disagree then say what you want, I don't know why I would listen to you rather then my father who played college ball for a D1 college... No offense.
I'll look around, but its better safe than sorry.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Actually, about the Devil Rays pitching coach Hernandez thing, I found the article-like-thing. http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/17/Sports/Here_s_the_pitch.shtml

Actually pretty useful.

[slugger33]

yes, i am like 13 too, but i already told you i was learning to pronate the wrist for a changeup not a screwball.
ok I read that already.

[slugger33]

Go ahead and try a curve if you want, nm. Since everyone is against me on this, you might just want to ask a pitching instructor instead of listening to people that could be anybody on the internet... And, yes, pretty much all breaking pitches are bad for your arm. But it has more to do with how you throw them then what they are. I can throw a slider-like pitch but I do not turn over my wrist, or pronate the wrist, or bend my elbow in any way. I just grip it like a curveball and throw it just like I would my curveball, and it does not hurt my arm and I haven't had any arm problems with it. Sinkers are not harmful for your arm if you consider that a breaking pitch, sinker is pretty much a 2-seamer but how I grip mine is I grip it like a 2 seamer but move my fingers up so they're going up the horseshoe part (if that makes sense.). You can put pressure on either finger to affect the movement.

The breaking pitches that are most harmful for your arm is a screwball and (I think) a split finger fastball. Both will tear up your elbow.

And, bronxkid, I am not a Mike Marshall follower, I think you should definetly throw a curveball before a screwball and I think you should never throw a screwball. I read an article that asks Tampa Bay Devil Rays pitching coach, Hernandez, why he does not believe pitchers should throw a screwball and he shows the interviewer a long scar he has from surgery by throwing the screwball.

I think you should not throw a curveball until 16 years old because that's what I was taught, if you disagree then say what you want, I don't know why I would listen to you rather then my father who played college ball for a D1 college... No offense.
I have to disagree with this. Yes, it is true that breaking pitches will hurt your arm. But if you get enough rest, you will be ok. The knuckle-curve is a breaking pitch, and it puts no more stress on your arm than a fastball.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I have to disagree with this. Yes, it is true that breaking pitches will hurt your arm. But if you get enough rest, you will be ok. The knuckle-curve is a breaking pitch, and it puts no more stress on your arm than a fastball.

Yeah, knuckle-curve is one (Mike Mussina uses it by the way).

Honestly, i'm probably wrong. I don't know much on pitching injuries which is why i'm getting Dick Mill's new book which I hear he discusses alot of preventing injuries.

[bronxkid]

I think you should not throw a curveball until 16 years old because that's what I was taught, if you disagree then say what you want, I don't know why I would listen to you rather then my father who played college ball for a D1 college... No offense.

No problem, my brother plays pro-ball in Puerto Rico , I'd listen to him before anyone here on the board any given day. Your posts are some of the reasons why American Ball is being past up by DR and PR players(latin american players) period. Good luck with your style and teachings. In the end we shall see who was right and who was wrong.

No offense of course.