40 HR/40 2B

[erictelevision]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-02 AT 03:55 PM (EDT)]How many times has that been achieved in a season?

[The Commissioner]

Unless I left anyone off, it's only been done 25 times. The following is a list of the players that have accomplished this feat:

Three times: Gehrig
Twice: Ruth, Greenberg, Klein, Belle, Helton
Once: Juan Gonzalez, Bagwell, Hornsby, Stargell, Frank Thomas, Shawn Green, Trosky, Burks, Larry Walker, Chipper Jones, Delgado, and Richard Hidalgo

[scott4_Dallas]

I think albert Belle did it one year with Cleveland - he might have had 50/50.

Of course he's still a dog

[The Commissioner]

Belle did it once with Cleveland and once with Chicago. His 50/50 season in Cleveland is the only time that was ever accomplished in Major League history.

[I_dont_Like_Pickles]

Newbie here..

A-rod did it, he has a 40-40 back in 98' i think... not sure if it's first shortstop to pull it off!

[The Commissioner]

Welcome to the forums!

A-rod was 40/40 as far as 40 HR and 40 SB, but the question specifically referred to players with 40 HR and 40 2B in the same season. A-rod has never accomplished that.

[Manny = Foxx]

A rod never did it !!!!!!

Manny ramirez did !

How soon we forget 2004 44 2bs 43 hrs .......

[Manny = Foxx]

didnt notice the date - im alittle late to the party

but a rod still has never done it.

[Hammerin Hank]

Nobody forgot. It didn't happen yet. This thread is from 2002.

[Manny = Foxx]

see the above

i accept your apology !

[KCGHOST]

Here's an updated list through 2005:

HR 2B

Babe Ruth 1921 59 44
Albert Belle 1995 50 52
Albert Belle 1998 49 48
Lou Gehrig 1934 49 40
Todd Helton 2001 49 54
Larry Walker 1997 49 46
Lou Gehrig 1927 47 52
David Ortiz 2005 47 40
Albert Pujols 2004 46 51
Derrek Lee 2005 46 50
Chipper Jones 1999 45 41
Juan Gonzalez 1998 45 50
Richard Hidalgo 2000 44 42
Willie Stargell 1973 44 43
Chuck Klein 1929 43 45
Albert Pujols 2003 43 51
Jeff Bagwell 1997 43 40
Manny Ramirez 2004 43 44
Frank Thomas 2000 43 44
Mark Teixeira 2005 43 41
Shawn Green 1999 42 45
Hal Trosky 1936 42 45
Todd Helton 2000 42 59
Rogers Hornsby 1922 42 46
Carlos Delgado 2000 41 57
Lou Gehrig 1930 41 42
Babe Ruth 1923 41 45
Hank Greenberg 1940 41 50
David Ortiz 2004 41 47
Chuck Klein 1930 40 59
Ellis Burks 1996 40 45
Hank Greenberg 1937 40 49

[Hammerin Hank]

SEVEN of these incidences occuring since 2003.

[Manny = Foxx]

Here's an updated list through 2005:

HR 2B

Babe Ruth 1921 59 44
Albert Belle 1995 50 52
Albert Belle 1998 49 48
Lou Gehrig 1934 49 40
Todd Helton 2001 49 54
Larry Walker 1997 49 46
Lou Gehrig 1927 47 52
David Ortiz 2005 47 40
Albert Pujols 2004 46 51
Derrek Lee 2005 46 50
Chipper Jones 1999 45 41
Juan Gonzalez 1998 45 50
Richard Hidalgo 2000 44 42
Willie Stargell 1973 44 43
Chuck Klein 1929 43 45
Albert Pujols 2003 43 51
Jeff Bagwell 1997 43 40
Manny Ramirez 2004 43 44
Frank Thomas 2000 43 44
Mark Teixeira 2005 43 41
Shawn Green 1999 42 45
Hal Trosky 1936 42 45
Todd Helton 2000 42 59
Rogers Hornsby 1922 42 46
Carlos Delgado 2000 41 57
Lou Gehrig 1930 41 42
Babe Ruth 1923 41 45
Hank Greenberg 1940 41 50
David Ortiz 2004 41 47
Chuck Klein 1930 40 59
Ellis Burks 1996 40 45
Hank Greenberg 1937 40 49

Are Manny and Papi the only teammates to do it in the same year (2004)
IT looks like thats the case,if so what a great stat ,if not let me know.

thanks again

[538280]

SEVEN of these incidences occuring since 2003.

Willie Stargell was the only player to do it ouside of the biggest offensive eras of all time-the 20s/30s and the 90s/2000s. Just shows how important offensive context is.

[SABR Matt]

This is why Duke Snider is so overrated.

Check out his HR totals from 1953-1957 in Ebbots...and then look from 1958 on. :D

One of the most overrated players in baseball history.

[Ubiquitous]

Not sure if you are joking but after he left Brooklyn he played in the Coliseum and was chronically injured.


http://www.ballparktour.com/Los_Angeles_Coliseum_Dia.gif

The baseball diamond was crammed into one end of the stadium, resulting in a left-field line measuring only 250 feet. A 40-foot screen was constructed to counter the intimate dimensions, but it didn't do that much good: the balls flew out of the park because of the intimate dimensions. In fact, the disparity between home runs hit to left and home runs hit to right field was staggering. In 1958, 193 home runs were hit in the Coliseum -- 182 to left, 3 to center, and 8 to right.

For a lefty this was murder and guess what Duke was a lefty. Not only that but he was injured and wasn't the same player. After he left Brooklyn his away homers dropped as well as his home homers.

[SABR Matt]

OK...I didn't know the dimensions of the Collesium were so goofy...but, that was kinda my point anyway...his numbers were in fact influenced by BOTH Ebbots (in a ridiculously positive way) AND his new park in LA (in a bad way)...and I still think he was dramatically overrated.

And yes I know he had some injury trouble after 1957...I don't believe that is a sufficient excuse though. There was a clear difference in his play and it's not an accident that it occurred that year.

[Ubiquitous]

Duke Snider only played 106 games in 1958. AFter 1957 the most at bats in any one year for Snider was 370. I'd say injuries had a very big impact on Sniders performance after 1957.

There was a clear difference in his play and it's not an accident that it occurred that year.

Well actually funny you should mention it but Snider was in a car accident during spring training of the first year in LA. That same year Duke injured his cannon of an arm during a throwing contest at the Coliseum. He played through it because if he didn't the Dodgers were going to fine him for every day he missed. Throw in the fact that he had a bad knee and one cannot say that it was simply the change of ballparks that did him in.


One final note take a look at what splits retrosheet has for Duke. They only have one season in Brooklyn but all his seasons after that. Every year at the Coliseum except his first he was a great player at home not so great away.

[SABR Matt]

Interesting...

Note...I wasn't saying it was JUST the park doing him in...merely that Ebbots Field was a major reason he did so well from '53 through '57 and even if you account for his injuries, not quite as well after 1957.

[Ubiquitous]

Okay so how do you account for the injuries? You don't know what injuries he suffered and how they effected his play so how can one account for his injuries when looking at his seasonal play?

[SABR Matt]

His injuries, while they certainly had an effect, are not that much worse than what typically happens when a player ages. Applying a standard aging curve to his career and prorating out his playing time to fuller seasons gives you a decent estimate.

[Ubiquitous]

His injuries, while they certainly had an effect, are not that much worse than what typically happens when a player ages. Applying a standard aging curve to his career and prorating out his playing time to fuller seasons gives you a decent estimate.


Again how do you know what they are and if they are worse, the same or better?

Can one simply say that Mike Schmidt's or Don Mattingly's injuries are not much worse then what happens when a player ages? So we should apply a standard aging curve?

[SABR Matt]

You've already defined what Snider's injuries were...much of which I already was aware of from reading (though I didn't know about his arm injury...or I knew his arm was hurting I didn't know why he hurt it or played through it though)...I certainly agree that injuries hurt his performance significantly following 1957, but it baffles me that you would deny just how much Snider was helped by Ebbots...truly baffles me.

[Ubiquitous]

NO I told you what Snider's injuries were and so did the books but neither I nor the books actually no what impact they had on Snider.


Do you know what impact Ebbets Field had on Snider? I don't, and I am pretty sure you don't either. All we have is one season of data for Ebbets field and Snider, and it was his last season. I have his seasonal home run data, and in the yeasr in which he hit 40 or more homers he ended up hitting 27 more homers at home then on the road 117-90. It was almost uncanny, he hit 23 homers at home a year for 4 years (plus a year at 25) and had two seasons of 19, 2 seasons of 17 and one of 18 on the road. Playing at home boosted his homers by 5 compared to all other parks except Ebbets in his prime.

The splits we do have for Snider in away games show that he was pretty good hitter even though he was clearly in his decline phase and injured a lot. The away homer data shows that in his prime Snider was more then capable of being a 40 homer hitter year in and year during his prime. And guess what in his prime he was, so how is Ebbets obviously overrating Snider. We don't have the data to support so what we have is an assumption of help. I'm not going to make a declarative statement based on virtually no data that supports or debunks the view.

[SABR Matt]

Focusing on the individual player's home/road splits has long since been LOUDLY debunked as the correct process by sabermetricians. As BIll James put it, "that side lost, because in the end they realized that what mattered when talking about park effects was how we expect the park the influence a player, not how the numbers happened to fall over his career...a matter that is often left largely to chance."

The numbers that matter are Ebbots Field's dimensions. They've been posted here at the Fever before. Ebbots field was RIDICULOUSLY small compared to other parks in the NL and small in ways that we would expect would positively benefit a player like Snider. It is impossible to draw meaning from a sample of 40 HRs a year and conclude that Ebbots Field had limited effect on Snider.

I'm not saying he wasn't a good hitter. He was...that much is obvious. I'm saying he is dramatically overrated as a fielder because the methods we normally use to factor out the park aren't good enough and don't do the terrors of pitching in Ebbots justice.

[MyDogSparty]

I've heard of Ebbets Field, the one named after owner Charles Ebbets, where the Brooklyn Dodgers used to play, but not Ebbots Field. Is that a typo or was there an Ebbots Field too?

[SABR Matt]

Cute...very cute.

Excuse my misspelling.

[Ubiquitous]

One could say that Bill James has LOUDLY debunked linear weights but that doesn't mean it is true.


If you collect data and find that 80% of the time the home team wins and then somebody asks hey who won yesterdays game do you bother to look up the result or do you just say the home team won and then refuse to believe that the away team won despite the actual result?

Yes Ebbets field is supposed to be a hitters park but if Snider didn't take advantage of it then how can Ebbets field over-rate him? If anything it would under rate him because you are taking more off his numbers then one should.

As for all those random chances well those random chances produce events and those events counted. Looking forward and predicting is one thing but in trying to measure the past it no longer matters how the result happened only that it happened.

If a .200 hitter goes 10 for 10 or 30 for 30 and we want to know what we should expect in the next 60 at bats then it is important to know how those 10 or 30 at bats happened. But if we simply want to measure the impact of those 10 or 30 at bats in those specific games then it doesn't matter how it happened only that it happened and who was involved.


But you have no clear idea how Ebbets field affected Duke Snider or the players of that era. What we do have is Park Factors based on runs and some data for its last year, and that is it. Duke played full time at Ebbets field for 9 years. 6 of those years have an average PF of 1.017 while in three seasons they have a park factor greater then 110 and the last year being a really insane year for runs.

In 1949 the Dodgers hit 14 more at home
1950 29 homers
1951 12 homers
1952 35 homers
1953 5 more homers were hit on the road
1954 20 homers
1955 2 homers
1956 7 homers
1957 32 homers

Unfortunately I don't have the numbers for the away teams.

I don't know what happened in 1957 but everybody was scoring runs at Ebbets field that year

[baseballPAP]

Back to the topic of the thread......:)

Alfonso Soriano is pushing territory I'm pretty sure no one has touched...a truly historic season.

His current numbers: 37 2B, 44 HR, and 38 SB! The closest I could find from the list given here is Larry Walker, who managed 33 steals to go with his monster season in 97. Soriano also missed it by a single HR back in 02, and was in the neighborhood the next year as well. Possibly the best offensive player in the bigs right now, if only he'd take the occasional walk.

[SABR Matt]

Soriano will never walk and will never be anything remotely near the best offensive player in the league. Not that he sucks or anything...I'd certainly be happy to have him on my team. But there is a reason why he went from the AL where he hit like .280 with mediocre power to the NL where he's God again. The NL is no longer a major league.

[Ubiquitous]

Soriano is batting .288. 8 points above .280 makes you a god?
He has walked the most in his life ever this year and he also has 15 intentional walks. Nothing he is doing right now is out of line for his career. This could turn out to be his career year but this isn't some major leaguer hitting against little leaguers.

AS for mediocre power? He had a .500 SLG in the AL, average 40 doubles and 33 homers per 162 games in the AL. If that is mediocre what is good?

Saying this is because he plays in the NL is a gross over generalization of the facts.

[Ubiquitous]

Oh and right now Soriano is remotely close to the best offensive player in the league. 6th in VORP, 8th in EqA, 4th in Win Shares, and 7th in runs above replacement.

[SABR Matt]

Soriano is batting .288. 8 points above .280 makes you a god?
He has walked the most in his life ever this year and he also has 15 intentional walks. Nothing he is doing right now is out of line for his career. This could turn out to be his career year but this isn't some major leaguer hitting against little leaguers.

AS for mediocre power? He had a .500 SLG in the AL, average 40 doubles and 33 homers per 162 games in the AL. If that is mediocre what is good?

Saying this is because he plays in the NL is a gross over generalization of the facts.

Um...take a look at the LAST two years in the AL Ubi...that is what I was referring to as mediocre power. Soriano is the type of hitter that commonly peaks early...he peaked with the Yankees.

[SABR Matt]

And none of those measures take league quality into account.

I could start rattling off the names of national leaguers who this year are suddenly having surprisingly good seasons, but somehow I don't think that would matter to you.

[Ubiquitous]

Um...take a look at the LAST two years in the AL Ubi...that is what I was referring to as mediocre power. Soriano is the type of hitter that commonly peaks early...he peaked with the Yankees.

You mean like last year when he hit 36 homers and 43 doubles?

Peak early? He was 26.

[Ubiquitous]

And none of those measures take league quality into account.

I could start rattling off the names of national leaguers who this year are suddenly having surprisingly good seasons, but somehow I don't think that would matter to you.


Yes silly Vlad doesn't he know he shouldn't be putting those kind of numbers up? Doesn't Lyle Overbay know he is supposed to delcine when he moved to the AL? Perhaps Thome still thinks he is with the Phils?

Is the NL a weaker league? Probably, but the difference isn't as great as you make it out when talking about Alfonso Soriano.

[SABR Matt]

Yes silly Vlad doesn't he know he shouldn't be putting those kind of numbers up? Doesn't Lyle Overbay know he is supposed to delcine when he moved to the AL? Perhaps Thome still thinks he is with the Phils?

Is the NL a weaker league? Probably, but the difference isn't as great as you make it out when talking about Alfonso Soriano.

HelLO!! Vlad came over to the AL long before the NL weakened. Lyle Overbay moved into a park that extremely favors doubles hitters and people who can use the turf. Thome is a long-time AL stud and last played in the NL full time before it declined sharply.

The smart-ass comments don't help this discussion. Calm down.

The NL was still a solid Major League caliber group as recently as 2005...apparently you missed the series of articles re: the AL's utter domination of inter-league play and before the season regarding how as many as 5 wins PER TEAM left the NL for the AL in free agency...this stuff was all over BTF and other forums before the season...the 2006 NL is nothing like the 2005 NL...and much less the 2004 NL when last Thome was effective and not injured.

This is just an off-the-cuff estimate based on interleague results (which yes, they are a small sample, of this I'm aware) and player movement, but I would guess that if the 2005 AL was a 100 difficulty, then the 2005 NL was about a 98, the 2006 AL is about a 102 and the 2006 NL is about a 96. Six points may not seem like a lot of difference, but that's 6% of the best performance shaved right off the top and it's mostly in pitching. The NL's pitching this year is comically thin.

[AstrosFan]

There's no question the NL is much weaker, than the AL, Matt. I think the problem people have with your comments is that you're saying the NL is not at major league level this year. Are you sure it's that extreme? When I think "not a major league," I think of the UA, NA, PL, maybe the AA. I can't see an argument that the 2006 NL has sunk to those depths.

[AstrosFan]

Andrew Dolphin's rankings of MLB teams, ranked by the predictive measure, which he says is the best for measuring how good a team is.

TEAM Rank Lg
DETROIT 1 AL
N.Y. YANKEES 2 AL
CHICAGO WHITE SOX 3 AL
CLEVELAND 4 AL
MINNESOTA 5 AL
OAKLAND 6 AL
TEXAS 7 AL
N.Y. METS 8 NL
L.A. ANGELS 9 AL
TORONTO 10 AL
BOSTON 11 AL
SEATTLE 12 AL
L.A. DODGERS 13 NL
PHILADELPHIA 14 NL
ATLANTA 15 NL
SAN DIEGO 16 NL
SAN FRANCISCO 17 NL
ST. LOUIS 18 NL
COLORADO 19 NL
HOUSTON 20 NL
ARIZONA 21 NL
FLORIDA 22 NL
BALTIMORE 23 AL
CINCINNATI 24 NL
TAMPA BAY 25 AL
KANSAS CITY 26 AL
MILWAUKEE 27 NL
WASHINGTON 28 NL
PITTSBURGH 29 NL
CHICAGO CUBS 30 NL



Notice anything?

[SABR Matt]

There's no question the NL is much weaker, than the AL, Matt. I think the problem people have with your comments is that you're saying the NL is not at major league level this year. Are you sure it's that extreme? When I think "not a major league," I think of the UA, NA, PL, maybe the AA. I can't see an argument that the 2006 NL has sunk to those depths.

The UA, PL and NA were not simply non-major leagues...they fail to meet the standards of modern AAA.

The NL is IMHO somewhere between AAA and the AL this year...probably close to the level of play in the Nippon League...I wouldn't be surprised if the Nippon League were stronger this year...

[SABR Matt]

Notice anything?

wow! Nice little demonstration of my point.

[ohms_law]

The NL was still a solid Major League caliber group as recently as 2005...apparently you missed the series of articles re: the AL's utter domination of inter-league play and before the season regarding how as many as 5 wins PER TEAM left the NL for the AL in free agency...
First off, I did miss the earlier discussions about this, so we'll probably end up repeating some of that here. Sorry.

The question that I have is, besides interleage play, what else can be offered to substantiate the view that the national league this season is so weak that it's fallen below the "Major League" standard? I don't see interleague play as being very meaningfull. Yes, the low number of these games is an important part of my view on this, but more importantly is that interleague games all occur early in the season and have even less importance to the teams than out of division games. It's not that I beleave that the players don't take interleague games seriously, but them being early season and not being as significant as in league games has to have some sort of psychological effect.

Hasn't anyone come up with any league average numbers for 2006 to date?

[baseballPAP]

The UA, PL and NA were not simply non-major leagues...they fail to meet the standards of modern AAA.

The NL is IMHO somewhere between AAA and the AL this year...probably close to the level of play in the Nippon League...I wouldn't be surprised if the Nippon League were stronger this year...

That is a major stretch Matt....the Nippon League probably isn't as talented as AAA on the whole. Their stars are better probably, but the overall quality is pretty similar to our AAA. The NL is definately weaker on the whole than the AL, but not by enough to be demoted. I'd call it maybe 4%, but 6 isn't out of the question. It would take at least 10 before I'd even begin to entertain the thought of them being "AAAA". For the record....my opinions on the leagues:
AL:100
NL:96
Nippon:88-90
AAA:85-88
AA:80-85
Mexico/Korea/other large foreign leagues:variable, hover around 70
A:65-70
Rookie League:60
Indy Leagues:40-50

There are major League level talents at every one of these levels, but for the most part, MLB gets the best of the best from around the world. No way the NL is below the talent level by that much, when nearly every team in the league has a bench player that would be a star in Japan, or in AAA.

[Ubiquitous]

HelLO!! Vlad came over to the AL long before the NL weakened. Lyle Overbay moved into a park that extremely favors doubles hitters and people who can use the turf. Thome is a long-time AL stud and last played in the NL full time before it declined sharply.
So AL guys who come over to the NL then back to the AL don't look better while they are in the NL?


The smart-ass comments don't help this discussion. Calm down.

I didn't know I wasn't calm



The NL was still a solid Major League caliber group as recently as 2005...apparently you missed the series of articles re: the AL's utter domination of inter-league play and before the season regarding how as many as 5 wins PER TEAM left the NL for the AL in free agency...this stuff was all over BTF and other forums before the season...the 2006 NL is nothing like the 2005 NL...and much less the 2004 NL when last Thome was effective and not injured.

No I didn't miss it but I am not going to throw out a blanket assessment of an entire league and then apply it on my analysis of just one player.
It's like saying the average major league fastball is 92 mph therefore Nolan Ryan didn't throw fastballs at 100 mph.

[SABR Matt]

No Ubi...Players who start in the AL...go to the NL pre-2005 and then come back pre-2006 aren't going to see major changes in their lines because before no earlier than 2005, the NL and AL were reasonably close. The extreme shift didn't happen really until THIS season.

And baseballPAP...that's simply not true about the Nippon League, IMHO. Japanese baseball since about 1996 has been increasngly deep and in the last few years Japan has become a borderline major league. Around the same level as our NL this year...not quite there yet but really gaining ground.