Jeter wins MVP?

[redcheeks]

I saw this somewhere a couple days ago that they think he'll win it. Probably.

[wigglestrue]

I saw this somewhere a couple days ago that they think he'll win it. Probably.

I think he'll also win the Cy Young, the ROY (both AL and NL), and even though he didn't play in it, he'll be retroactively awarded World Series co-MVP...because his intangibility is that omnipotent.

:eek:

[AznInvasion]

He's also the leading candidate for manager of the year.

[hubkittel]

i believe that he's the favorite for the nobel peace prize. also, pope benedict announced recently that jeter is on the fast tract for sainthood (st. derek of the overwhelming hype, patron saint of intangibles).

[wu-tang clan]

jeter aint gonna win no mvp- its all about the dye... jermaine dye.

[EvanAparra]

jeter aint gonna win no mvp- its all about the dye... jermaine dye.
Dye has about as good a shot as I do.

[AznInvasion]

Dye has about as good a shot as I do.
your wrong I'd take you anyday over Dye.

[ChrisLDuncan]

A bunch of Jeter haters here, what is it jealousy? I mean I'm jealous of him too, I mean Jessica Alba, Adriana Lima, Scarlett Johanson, Mariah Carey, Ms. Universe, Jordana Brewster...the list goes on and on. Seriously though, what is it with the Jeter haters.

[EvanAparra]

A bunch of Jeter haters here, what is it jealousy? I mean I'm jealous of him too, I mean Jessica Alba, Adriana Lima, Scarlett Johanson, Mariah Carey, Ms. Universe, Jordana Brewster...the list goes on and on. Seriously though, what is it with the Jeter haters.
Probably because he's getting awards he doesn't deserve.

[hubkittel]

A bunch of Jeter haters here, what is it jealousy? I mean I'm jealous of him too, I mean Jessica Alba, Adriana Lima, Scarlett Johanson, Mariah Carey, Ms. Universe, Jordana Brewster...the list goes on and on. Seriously though, what is it with the Jeter haters.

it's the scarlett johanson thing more than anything else. i can't handle that-first i hear evan is hanging out with cat osterman and now i'm finding out about jeter and scarlett. enough is enough. :D

[ESPNFan]

A bunch of Jeter haters here, what is it jealousy? I mean I'm jealous of him too, I mean Jessica Alba, Adriana Lima, Scarlett Johanson, Mariah Carey, Ms. Universe, Jordana Brewster...the list goes on and on. Seriously though, what is it with the Jeter haters.

Its not Jealousy. Its the undeserved Gold Gloves, The media fawning, etc. Its all for a MVP of a 200 million dollar team? I just can't fathom giving an MVP award to a team that didn't miss a beat while losing 2 All stars. Not beacuse Jeter singlehandedly carried them, but because there were 4 other all stars there to help him out. And thats just positional players. And IMO Rivera is more valuable to the Yankees than Jeter is. So if he's not the MVP of his own team how is he the league MVP?

Plus, and I'm sure Derek would agree, He'd like to keep the whole Mariah Carey thing on the DL :laugh

[Rapmaster]

I dunno, Jeter's got a good rep with the press. He seems (never talked to him, so I'm assuming like most everybody else) to be a genuinely nice, well-mannered individual. People hate the guy just because he's liked, that irks me. He's done nothing but positive things for the game.

You see guys like Ortiz, essentially, whining to the media. That's the type of behavior that loses these votes. Similarly, Presidents usually don't win due to their complex plans for the future, they win because they project themselves and portray themselves as favorably as possible.

Jeter's not the worst MVP candidate (Ronny Cedeno's still around and I guess you could vote for him in the NL) and it's true he doesn't have the numbers to accurately say he was the most productive all-around player. But he sells himself as an asset off and on the field. Good for him, I don't feel like he's done anything wrong to spurn him for winning something.

That being said, I would vote for Morneau.

[EvanAparra]

People hate the guy just because he's liked, that irks me.

Not true, people hate him because he's a Yankee.


You see guys like Ortiz, essentially, whining to the media.

He said one thing one time. And then pretty much apologized and said he didnt mean what everyone thought he meant the day after. You make it sound like he's a jerk and consistent whiner.


But he sells himself as an asset off and on the field. Good for him, I don't feel like he's done anything wrong to spurn him for winning something.

I spurn people that win things they don't deserve, although its more of spurning his winning it, and not him himself.

[CROM]

jeter is overrated... solely because he plays for the yankees.. if he played anywhere else hed be underrated...

[Evangelion]

Not true, people hate him because he's a Yankee.
That lead to him becoming well known and hated. People do hate him, because he's over-rated by people that like him. Though, people that dislike him being over-rated will over-hate on him. Over-hating on him not much better over-rating.

Jeter won't be under-rated if he played on another team. He be view as the player he would be. A good offensive SS with a slightly above average, if that, with the glove at SS.

I could crack jokes about Jeter being over-rated, but I sound like a broken record if I did that since it's been done many times before and everyone aware of the fact people over-rate him. I prefer not to over-hate on him.

[hellborn]

i believe that he's the favorite for the nobel peace prize. also, pope benedict announced recently that jeter is on the fast tract for sainthood (st. derek of the overwhelming hype, patron saint of intangibles).
He couldn't even keep the peace with ARod!
Well...I guess there was no war...but a very tense truce.

[hellborn]

jeter is overrated... solely because he plays for the yankees.. if he played anywhere else hed be underrated...

This is the thing for me, too. He is a fine player, and seems to be a generally admirable person. I like his hustle and he has made some big plays where many others probably would have given up. But, all of his imperfections are smoothed over in an effort to make him look like the perfect hero. Even Achilles had his heel, and Jeter has his shortcomings, which are ignored by most of the general media and Yanks fans.
I don't like the Yankees at all and hope for the worst for them as a team, but I feel that I can maintain detachment when it comes to evaluating Yanks players and not having a "personal" dislike for any of them. I just honestly feel that too much is made of Jeter.
And, this may be asking too much of any player, but Derek is supposed to be the ultimate teammate...don't you think that a truly selfless player would have offered to change positions when the team traded for ARod? I think that it was clear to anybody that ARod was a better SS. I mean, Hank Greenberg changed positions for Rudy York, and York was a much lesser player than Hank...

[cardsfanatic]

Probably because he's getting awards he doesn't deserve.

Didn't seem to bother people when Miguel Tejada won a horribly undeserved MVP award. You didn't see this backlash against him. At least Jeter actually _is_ in the top three for MVP this year. When Tejada won it he wasn't even top five.

[ESPNFan]

Just a casual question to Yankee fans.

Knowing what we know about Your team's, owner, players, resources and on feild management style, if one player was lost for a season who would you chose to give up between Rivera and Jeter?

[nyykan_t]

Probably because he's getting awards he doesn't deserve.
So it's his fault, but not the voters who decide to give him awards he doesn't deserve?

[Captain Cold Nose]

So it's his fault, but not the voters who decide to give him awards he doesn't deserve?
It's not his fault, but don't expect people to fall in line with others' mistakes.

[Lindseynelson]

Anyone else feel like there is a wink and a handshake already in place for him to skipper the Yankees in 08?
Let's see, you are mgr of the year keeping a AAA team in the hunt all season , get amazingly canned for your efforts and although there are lot's of high profile jobs available you decide to announce for a year.
HUH?
No doubt in my mind that were it not for the fact that George would have to pay Torre 7 million dollars next season to golf as well as another 3 or so to his replacement he would have canned him.
Girardi is a Yankee favorite, has shown he can manage and is young enough to be signed to a much more reasonable deal and understands pitching.
I would bet a weeks pay he ends up in Pinstripes in 08.
OOps I meant this to be a new topic but lo and behold my nimble fingers once again let me down

[nyykan_t]

It's not his fault, but don't expect people to fall in line with others' mistakes.
No need to. But it shouldn't be a reason for people to HATE him.

[Captain Cold Nose]

No need to. But it shouldn't be a reason for people to HATE him.
See, I don't see it as hate. It's just not buying into the hype.

[DoubleX]

Not that I'm advocating this as definitive proof, but Jeter did have the most Win Shares in the AL last year, which shows that he contributed to more wins for his team than anyone else in the league, and isn't that a good measure of value? Here's how the top 20 in Win Shares breaks down in the AL courtesy of the hardballtimes.com. (http://http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&season_filter%5B%5D=2006&league_filter%5B%5D=AL&pos_filter%5B%5D=All&Submit=Submit)

1) Derek Jeter (Yankees) - 32.6
2) Joe Mauer (Twins) - 30.8
3) David Ortiz (Red Sox) - 29.4
4) Manny Ramirez (Red Sox) - 29.0
5) Justin Morneau (Twins) - 27.5
6) Raul Ibanez (Mariners) - 27.1
7) Jermaine Dye (White Sox) - 26.5
8) Michael Young (Rangers) - 26.2
9) Jim Thome (White Sox) - 25.9
10) Carlos Guillen (Tigers) - 25.8
11) Vernon Wells (Blue Jays) - 25.4
12) Vladimir Guerrero (Angels) - 25.2
t13) Johann Santana (Twins) - 25.0
t13) Travis Hafner (Indians) - 25.0
15) Alex Rodriguez (Yankees) - 24.8
16) Ichiro Suzuki (Mariners ) - 24.2
t17) Jorge Posada (Yankees) - 23.6
t17) Jason Kendall (Athletics) - 23.6
19) Michael Cuddyer (Twins) - 23.5
20) Carl Crawford (Devil Rays) - 23.4

Interestingly, for all the talk of Jeter playing with so many other great players, despite the losses of Sheffield and Matsui, he is only viable MVP candidate without a teammate in the top 10 in Win Shares:

- David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez are 3 and 4.
- Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau are 2 and 5, and Johann Santana is 13 (and Michael Cuddyer is 19)
- Jermaine Dye is 7 and Jim Thome is 9.

In this respect, Jeter not only leads the league, but he also appears to stand out more from any of his teammates than his competition for MVP.

[DoubleX]

Just a casual question to Yankee fans.

Knowing what we know about Your team's, owner, players, resources and on feild management style, if one player was lost for a season who would you chose to give up between Rivera and Jeter?

Rivera. Closers, even the best of them, are vastly overrated. They generally only factor into the game when the team is already in the lead and for only an inning every few days. People seem to forget that the game got by fine for a century without the need for closers, but shortstops have always been there and have played an integral role. I'd much rather have a SS with the offensive tools that Jeter has, impacting all 9 innings everyday, even if his fielding is only average.

[hellborn]

Not that I'm advocating this as definitive proof, but Jeter did have the most Win Shares in the AL last year, which shows that he contributed to more wins for his team than anyone else in the league, and isn't that a good measure of value? Here's how the top 20 in Win Shares breaks down in the AL ....

In this respect, Jeter not only leads the league, but he also appears to stand out more from any of his teammates than his competition for MVP.

I see Jeter as being a perfectly reasonable choice for MVP this year, and I'm not surprised to see him on top of the WS list. Looks like Manny might have taken it if he had been able to play out the season. I'm actually surprised that Mauer is so high, he must have gotten more defensive WS than I thought he would. Interesting that ARod is as low as he is, but his raw numbers at 3B are pretty bad. Does anybody feel that his shift there is just not working out?
If the Bosox had done something this year, Papi probably would have had a good shot based on 54HRs and emotion, but I don't see him having any chance now. As much as I like him, it's hard for me to agree with a player who has no defensive impact being the most valuable, or best.

[DoubleX]

I see Jeter as being a perfectly reasonable choice for MVP this year, and I'm not surprised to see him on top of the WS list. Looks like Manny might have taken it if he had been able to play out the season. I'm actually surprised that Mauer is so high, he must have gotten more defensive WS than I thought he would. Interesting that ARod is as low as he is, but his raw numbers at 3B are pretty bad. Does anybody feel that his shift there is just not working out?
If the Bosox had done something this year, Papi probably would have had a good shot based on 54HRs and emotion, but I don't see him having any chance now. As much as I like him, it's hard for me to agree with a player who has no defensive impact being the most valuable, or best.

You're right - Manny may have taken the Win Shares title if he didn't miss the last month of the season.

Mauer got a big defensive boost on account of playing catcher - 9.5 defensive win shares good for 3rd most in the AL (behind two other catchers - Ivan Rodriguez and Jason Kendall).

A-Rod was hurt by his fielding. He received just 2.4 defensive win shares, good for 9th among AL 3Bman (which is probably not as bad as some might think). But it's the lowest he's received at 3B, and interestingly, he's gone down each year at the position, despite most people believing last year was his best at 3B. In 2004, he received 5.4 defensive win shares, which was just 0.1 behind Hank Blalock for the league lead. In 2005, he dipped to 3.3, good for just 10th. This year down to 2.4, which was good for 9th. Figure that had he been a little better in the field, he would have finished in the top 7 or so in the AL in total Win Shares.

I still believe having A-Rod at 3B and Jeter at SS makes more sense than vice versa. Jeter's range to his gloveside is pathetic and that's basically almost all the territory a 3Bman has to cover. I think the better move would have been to put A-Rod at SS and Jeter in CF, but that's not happening now that Damon is on the team.

[GiambiJuice]

All you Jeter haters:

Accept the fact that Jeter will win a well-deservered MVP award this year and then move on with your lives.

As was already mentioned, he led the league in Win Shares, would have won the batting title easily if he wasn't up against a catcher with far fewer at bats. Scored a million runs, Stole over 30 bases - at a very good rate. Played solid defense from a very important defensive position, and led his team to the best record in the AL. If that's not an MVP, I don't know what is.

Look at his numbers with runners in scoring position: .381/.482/.581
With RISP and 2 outs: .369/.506/.569

I watched about 130 Yankee games this year. It sounds terribly cliche, but you have to see the guy play every day to appreciate him. He consistently delivered key hits when the team needed it most.

I think people get way too caught up in HR and RBI. Arods 35HR and 121RBI looks pretty nice, but ask any sane person who helped the team more - Jeter or - A-rod - and it wouldn't even be close.

If you happen to like RBI, lets not forget that Jeter had 97 RBI out of the 2-hole in the lineup, how often does that happen?

Haters, Haters..

If you can't accept Jeter as MVP this season, AT LEAST admit he's more deserving than ICHIRO was in 2001. (That one bothers me a little bit)

[ESPNFan]

Rivera. Closers, even the best of them, are vastly overrated. They generally only factor into the game when the team is already in the lead and for only an inning every few days. People seem to forget that the game got by fine for a century without the need for closers, but shortstops have always been there and have played an integral role. I'd much rather have a SS with the offensive tools that Jeter has, impacting all 9 innings everyday, even if his fielding is only average.

As overrated as closers are you wouldn't rather move A-Rod to short and try to find a serviceable infeilder on the trade market/Free Agency? Or would you rather trade for/sign a closer or middle reliever and give Farnsworht the closers role? Given the ease in which they obtained Abreu, I'd think that finding a corner infeilder would be much easier for them. Not to mention trying to find pitchers who would beable to survive the high leverage, big time pressure in NY.

[DoubleX]

As overrated as closers are you wouldn't rather move A-Rod to short and try to find a serviceable infeilder on the trade market/Free Agency? Or would you rather trade for/sign a closer or middle reliever and give Farnsworht the closers role? Given the ease in which they obtained Abreu, I'd think that finding a corner infeilder would be much easier for them. Not to mention trying to find pitchers who would beable to survive the high leverage, big time pressure in NY.

I would never give Farnsworth the closers role. That are several other options. I'd try Scott Proctor and Brian Bruney in that role (Bruney looked amazing in the last month of the season). If Jaret Wright is still on the team, I'd consider trying him in that spot as I believe he could be very effective for an inning. Heck, depending on the situation with the rotation, Randy Johnson at this point in his career, could make an excellent closer. There's also JB Cox in the minors who was drafted as a closer and has been good so far. The team could put Philip Hughes in there for a year like the Sox did with Jonathan Papelbon. And there is always the possibility for trade.

However, in my perfect-Yankees world, A-Rod would be at SS and Jeter in CF, and I would have gone out last year and signed or traded for a serviceable veteran to play 3B like Mike Lowell, Joe Randa, or Bill Mueller (this was before his injury).

[EvanAparra]

All you Jeter haters:

Accept the fact that Jeter will win a well-deservered MVP award this year and then move on with your lives.

As was already mentioned, he led the league in Win Shares, would have won the batting title easily if he wasn't up against a catcher with far fewer at bats. Scored a million runs, Stole over 30 bases - at a very good rate. Played solid defense from a very important defensive position, and led his team to the best record in the AL. If that's not an MVP, I don't know what is.

Haters, Haters..

If you can't accept Jeter as MVP this season, AT LEAST admit he's more deserving than ICHIRO was in 2001. (That one bothers me a little bit)

To all you Jeter lovers:

Stop trying to tell people what to think. We already hear enough of the pro-Jeter stuff from the media.

He would have won the batting title if there was no Joe Mauer, but there is a Joe Mauer and he won it fair and square.

[LGehrigFan]

To all you Jeter lovers:

Stop trying to tell people what to think. We already hear enough of the pro-Jeter stuff from the media.

He would have won the batting title if there was no Joe Mauer, but there is a Joe Mauer and he won it fair and square.

Jeter batted .343 in 623 AB with more SO, 102, compared to Mauer batting .004 points higher than him in more than 100 less AB. This is just one of the many numbers that make Jeter more deserving than Mauer.

[ESPNFan]

All you Jeter haters:

Accept the fact that Jeter will win a well-deservered MVP award this year and then move on with your lives.


Move on with our lives?!? Were not talking about life and death here. Like I have said before this is the equivilent of Titanic, or Million Dollar Plot Hole winning an Oscar. People will discuss and debate it and thats what these boards are for. It's fun to argue/debate about but nothing to get worked up in regards to. Just look at how some writters, who are supposed to be impartial reporters of facts, have voted in the past and you can see that most awards are really just the professional equivalent of High School year book superlatives (Most popular, Class Clown, Best Dressed) where some even chose as their grounds to settle petty grudges.


And if your still sore about Ichiro in 2001 you might need to take some of your own advise and move on with your life as well ;)

[EvanAparra]

Jeter batted .343 in 623 AB with more SO, 102, compared to Mauer batting .004 points higher than him in more than 100 less AB. This is just one of the many numbers that make Jeter more deserving than Mauer.
Hmm... I THINK that the batting title goes to the guy with the higher batting average after 502 ABs. So, that make Mauer more deserving, ya know, since he actually won it.

[ESPNFan]

I would never give Farnsworth the closers role. That are several other options. I'd try Scott Proctor and Brian Bruney in that role (Bruney looked amazing in the last month of the season). If Jaret Wright is still on the team, I'd consider trying him in that spot as I believe he could be very effective for an inning. Heck, depending on the situation with the rotation, Randy Johnson at this point in his career, could make an excellent closer. There's also JB Cox in the minors who was drafted as a closer and has been good so far. The team could put Philip Hughes in there for a year like the Sox did with Jonathan Papelbon. And there is always the possibility for trade.

However, in my perfect-Yankees world, A-Rod would be at SS and Jeter in CF, and I would have gone out last year and signed or traded for a serviceable veteran to play 3B like Mike Lowell, Joe Randa, or Bill Mueller (this was before his injury).

Well in my Yankee's GM senario that I have been touting for years Vlad should have been signed instead of Shef and Beltran instead of Johnson. :)
That aside even given all the options that the Yankees could go to for a Closer don't you feel better replacing a Thrid baseman than a Closer long term?

[GiambiJuice]

Hmm... I THINK that the batting title goes to the guy with the higher batting average after 502 ABs. So, that make Mauer more deserving, ya know, since he actually won it.

I never said Jeter "deserved" the batting title. I was just trying to point out how impressive his batting average was. Mauer won it fair and square.

[EvanAparra]

I never said Jeter "deserved" the batting title. I was just trying to point out how impressive his batting average was. Mauer won it fair and square.
Good deal, now if Lou Gherig only thought like you.

[GiambiJuice]

And if your still sore about Ichiro in 2001 you might need to take some of your own advise and move on with your life as well ;)

Good point. :o

[ESPNFan]

I never said Jeter "deserved" the batting title. I was just trying to point out how impressive his batting average was. Mauer won it fair and square.

But your comment about Jeter winning the title easily if he were not up agianst a catcher (no idea why this is a qualifier) with far fewer at bats, seems to indicate some how that Mauer had it easier than, or an advantage over Jeter. Jeter also had a far superior line up protecting him and played a less physically demanding position which is also impressive, first catcher to win the title in close to half a century I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong). I know you said that Mauer won it fair and square but wanted to point out where poeple may take issue with your comment.

[ESPNFan]

Good point. :o

Yankees and Red Sox fans getting along in a Jeter for MVP thread!!!! Quick someone get a Camera!!!!!!!:laugh

[Mattingly]

Its not Jealousy. Its the undeserved Gold Gloves, The media fawning, etc. Its all for a MVP of a 200 million dollar team? I just can't fathom giving an MVP award to a team that didn't miss a beat while losing 2 All stars. Not beacuse Jeter singlehandedly carried them, but because there were 4 other all stars there to help him out. And thats just positional players. And IMO Rivera is more valuable to the Yankees than Jeter is. So if he's not the MVP of his own team how is he the league MVP?

Plus, and I'm sure Derek would agree, He'd like to keep the whole Mariah Carey thing on the DL :laugh
For a $200m team, if they perform well, that's excellent. One would surely expect this, but if the manager doesn't provide any hunger, force that inner drive onto the field, then I'd say that winning in of itself isn't a "given".

In Jeter's case, he certainly played a role in being a spark plug. I believe that his returning to his natural #2 spot, as in Johnny Damon, we'd gotten our first bona-fide leadoff hitter since Chuck Knoblauch, wasn't coincidental.

When Matsui and Sheffield went down around May, Jeter kept hitting. Alex Rodriguez was booed off his own stage. Jeter kept hitting. Randy Johnson would go from 8 innings, 1 run to 4 innings, 6 runs. Jeter kept hitting. He was our most consistent player. Probably Chien-Ming Wang was second most consistent.

As to Yankee relievers, I'd likely put Scott Proctor ahead of Mariano Rivera in 2006. As much of a huge Mo fan that I am, let's face it. If Proctor doesn't keep the opposing team right where they're at, Mariano doesn't even enter the 9th inning. If we're on the road, there is no 9th inning for him to come into, as it's only 8.5 innings of baseball. As overused as Scott Proctor was, many, many times, he performed very well for us.

As to a SS vs CL, I'd say that if the SS (and the entire team, of course) does well, then the CL's job is made much easier. A 3-run lead is always more comfy than a 1-run lead, especially if entering the 8th, bases loaded, speed demons on the bases, slugger at bat (yadda, yadda).

I love what closers do, but even in the case of Boston, if you took away Ortiz' big stick (who could possibly replace him?) *OR* you took away Papelbon (replacing him with Mike Timlin), I believe there would be a bigger difference in wins if Ortiz was removed, in that Ortiz' loss would be felt moreso than would Papelbon's.

[Mattingly]

Yankees and Red Sox fans getting along in a Jeter for MVP thread!!!! Quick someone get a Camera!!!!!!!:laugh
You two folks knock off all that fun talk over there! :D

In further news ....

SMILE! You're on Candid Camera!

[ESPNFan]

For a $200m team, if they perform well, that's excellent. One would surely expect this, but if the manager doesn't provide any hunger, force that inner drive onto the field, then I'd say that winning in of itself isn't a "given".

In Jeter's case, he certainly played a role in being a spark plug. I believe that his returning to his natural #2 spot, as in Johnny Damon, we'd gotten our first bona-fide leadoff hitter since Chuck Knoblauch, wasn't coincidental.

When Matsui and Sheffield went down around May, Jeter kept hitting. Alex Rodriguez was booed off his own stage. Jeter kept hitting. Randy Johnson would go from 8 innings, 1 run to 4 innings, 6 runs. Jeter kept hitting. He was our most consistent player. Probably Chien-Ming Wang was second most consistent.

As to Yankee relievers, I'd likely put Scott Proctor ahead of Mariano Rivera in 2006. As much of a huge Mo fan that I am, let's face it. If Proctor doesn't keep the opposing team right where they're at, Mariano doesn't even enter the 9th inning. If we're on the road, there is no 9th inning for him to come into, as it's only 8.5 innings of baseball. As overused as Scott Proctor was, many, many times, he performed very well for us.

As to a SS vs CL, I'd say that if the SS (and the entire team, of course) does well, then the CL's job is made much easier. A 3-run lead is always more comfy than a 1-run lead, especially if entering the 8th, bases loaded, speed demons on the bases, slugger at bat (yadda, yadda).

I love what closers do, but even in the case of Boston, if you took away Ortiz' big stick (who could possibly replace him?) *OR* you took away Papelbon (replacing him with Mike Timlin), I believe there would be a bigger difference in wins if Ortiz was removed, in that Ortiz' loss would be felt moreso than would Papelbon's.

But Matt my point remains unchanged. With teams that have almost unlimited payroll the onlything that becomes really "most valued" is pitching.
If Oritz and Papelbon both went down before the start of the season I'd expect the Sox to be able to replace a DH/1B far more easily than a lights out Closer/Top of the rotation starter.

Let me also say that I'm in no way shape or from saying that Jeter didn't have a excellent season. I am strictly arguing this point from a value standpoint taking all the teams and their assets into question.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Its not Jealousy. Its the undeserved Gold Gloves, The media fawning, etc. Its all for a MVP of a 200 million dollar team? I just can't fathom giving an MVP award to a team that didn't miss a beat while losing 2 All stars. Not beacuse Jeter singlehandedly carried them, but because there were 4 other all stars there to help him out. And thats just positional players. And IMO Rivera is more valuable to the Yankees than Jeter is. So if he's not the MVP of his own team how is he the league MVP?

Plus, and I'm sure Derek would agree, He'd like to keep the whole Mariah Carey thing on the DL :laugh

Well the Yankees didn't miss a beat for a while there was a serious doubt as to whether or not they would even make the playoffs. A-Rod was struggling, and other than him it was pretty much Damon and Giambi carrying the team; Jeter was the best player out of those three. YEs Rivera is more valuable to the Yankees than any other player; however he is more valuable to the Yankees than any player on any other team (Santana MAYBE more valuable), so does that mean he should win the MVP every season? If it was the player most valuable to the team I'd say Johan Santana is the MVP, he's more valuable to the Twins than Ortiz was too the Red Sox. Hell the Red Sox were out of the playoffs in September, so what all did Ortiz do for a third place team? Plus he doesn't even play every inning. So it can't be him. Jermaine Dye had a monster season, but he played for a thrid place team that died (I'm not going to even go for the stupid joke), so he's not all that valuable. Maybe even Bobby Jenks was more valuable to the ChiSox than Dye. A lot of people say Morneau, but Santana (and Joe Mauer) was more valuable to the Twins than Morneau was...so it can't be him. That pretty much just leaves us with Santana, who I don't have a problem with.

As to the undeserved Gold Gloves, I find it hard to critize an athelete for doing something better than what I can do (unless that Athelete plays for an NFC West team that isn't the Cowboys or for the Red Sox ;)) I mean I'm sitting here listening ot these stat junkies critizing a major leaguer's defense. Most guys who have played and succeeded at the Major League level (e.g. Joe Morgan, Tim McCarver, Paul O'Neil, and Harold Reynolds) have no complaints about a Jeter's D. So I think you're making too big of a deal about something you have no real first hand knowledge (no offense to anyone here, I am lacking in that same department) and an award that has no real effect on anything it isn't an MVP and it isn't a Cy Young...stop whining. Jeter

By in large there is nothing that Jeter can do about the media fawining, so don't hate the player hate the game (ie the media); he plays in New York and he's goregous (you know what I mean) he's one of the classiest guys out there, and he's also one of the coolest. As far as the cool factor goes Jeter tops the list, I dunno about you guys but there is no other athelete I would rather party with (well maybe Fred Smoot ;)). Another athelete in a different sport gets the same attention but no where near the critizim, his name is Tom Brady, I don't see why people complain about Jeter getting this attention but not Brady.

Also Derek got Mariah when she was still fine.

[DoubleX]

Jeter batted .343 in 623 AB with more SO, 102, compared to Mauer batting .004 points higher than him in more than 100 less AB. This is just one of the many numbers that make Jeter more deserving than Mauer.

On the face of it, batting .343 in 623 AB is more impressive than batting .347 in 521 ABs. But that doesn't factor in that Joe Mauer batted .347 while playing catcher. I don't think Jeter would have batted .343 if he played catcher.

If Yankee fans are sore about Jeter losing out on a batting title, they should really go back to 1999 and 2003.

1999: Jeter finished 8 points behind Garciaparra. Not only did Jeter have 120 more ABs than Nomar that year, but because of Fenway compared to Yankee Stadium, the adjusted league average was 17 points higher for Nomar in '99 than it was for Jeter.

2003: Jeter finished two points behind Bill Mueller (and 1 point behind Manny Ramirez). Jeter actually had less ABs than both that year because of an early season shoulder separation. However, Fenway gave Mueller and Ramirez an 11 point headstart that year.

[Mattingly]

But Matt my point remains unchanged. With teams that have almost unlimited payroll the onlything that becomes really "most valued" is pitching.
If Oritz and Papelbon both went down before the start of the season I'd expect the Sox to be able to replace a DH/1B far more easily than a lights out Closer/Top of the rotation starter.

Let me also say that I'm in no way shape or from saying that Jeter didn't have a excellent season. I am strictly arguing this point from a value standpoint taking all the teams and their assets into question.
Perhaps my example wasn't ideal. I'd simply chosen a team I know well, and one in which you apparently (from my knowledge) root for.

In Boston's case, they seemed to rely very heavily on Ortiz in 2003-05. In 2006, I believe he'd helped them quite a bit, but I tend to believe that it was Papelbon who'd gotten the saves in close games, also going 2 innings w/o drama.

In Jeter's case, I believe he'd helped them out quite a bit. He certainly didn't have the 55 or so dingers that Ortiz did (nobody would expect that), but his constantly hitting well is what helped his team.

In the case of Mariano, I believe he had a very good-to-excellent season, but I believe the Yanks relied more on Jeter than Mo.

By this, I'd say that in the case of Red Sox or the Yanks, the offensive MVP and the Closer, their importance switched from team to team.

[ChrisLDuncan]

And, this may be asking too much of any player, but Derek is supposed to be the ultimate teammate...don't you think that a truly selfless player would have offered to change positions when the team traded for ARod? I think that it was clear to anybody that ARod was a better SS. I mean, Hank Greenberg changed positions for Rudy York, and York was a much lesser player than Hank...

Well in all fairness the new guy moves, plus A-Rod offered to move just like he did for Cal Ripken Jr. Also when was the last time A-Rod layed down a sac bunt? When people say Jeter's the ultimate team mate they refer to how personal stats and awards don't really bother him. That's all

[ChrisLDuncan]

And, this may be asking too much of any player, but Derek is supposed to be the ultimate teammate...don't you think that a truly selfless player would have offered to change positions when the team traded for ARod? I think that it was clear to anybody that ARod was a better SS. I mean, Hank Greenberg changed positions for Rudy York, and York was a much lesser player than Hank...

Well in all fairness the new guy moves, plus A-Rod offered to move just like he did for Cal Ripken Jr. Also when was the last time A-Rod layed down a sac bunt? When people say Jeter's the ultimate team mate they refer to how personal stats and awards don't really bother him. That's all, they mean by when they say that.

[DoubleX]

Well in my Yankee's GM senario that I have been touting for years Vlad should have been signed instead of Shef and Beltran instead of Johnson. :)
That aside even given all the options that the Yankees could go to for a Closer don't you feel better replacing a Thrid baseman than a Closer long term?

But it's in impact argument from my perspective. Yes, it is easier to find a serviceable option at 3B or SS than it is to find a good closer, but I also believe its harder to find a player of A-Rod or Jeter's quality to play 3B and SS than it is to find a good closer (though not Rivera). And given that I believe a closers impact is overrated, I'd rather have the better everyday players and find a decent enough closer out there.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Just a casual question to Yankee fans.

Knowing what we know about Your team's, owner, players, resources and on feild management style, if one player was lost for a season who would you chose to give up between Rivera and Jeter?

I'd cry if I had to make this decision, why don't you ask a mother which kid she'd rather give up ;)

[ChrisLDuncan]

Not that I'm advocating this as definitive proof, but Jeter did have the most Win Shares in the AL last year, which shows that he contributed to more wins for his team than anyone else in the league, and isn't that a good measure of value? Here's how the top 20 in Win Shares breaks down in the AL courtesy of the hardballtimes.com. (http://http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&season_filter%5B%5D=2006&league_filter%5B%5D=AL&pos_filter%5B%5D=All&Submit=Submit)

1) Derek Jeter (Yankees) - 32.6
2) Joe Mauer (Twins) - 30.8
3) David Ortiz (Red Sox) - 29.4
4) Manny Ramirez (Red Sox) - 29.0
5) Justin Morneau (Twins) - 27.5
6) Raul Ibanez (Mariners) - 27.1
7) Jermaine Dye (White Sox) - 26.5
8) Michael Young (Rangers) - 26.2
9) Jim Thome (White Sox) - 25.9
10) Carlos Guillen (Tigers) - 25.8
11) Vernon Wells (Blue Jays) - 25.4
12) Vladimir Guerrero (Angels) - 25.2
t13) Johann Santana (Twins) - 25.0
t13) Travis Hafner (Indians) - 25.0
15) Alex Rodriguez (Yankees) - 24.8
16) Ichiro Suzuki (Mariners ) - 24.2
t17) Jorge Posada (Yankees) - 23.6
t17) Jason Kendall (Athletics) - 23.6
19) Michael Cuddyer (Twins) - 23.5
20) Carl Crawford (Devil Rays) - 23.4

Interestingly, for all the talk of Jeter playing with so many other great players, despite the losses of Sheffield and Matsui, he is only viable MVP candidate without a teammate in the top 10 in Win Shares:

- David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez are 3 and 4.
- Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau are 2 and 5, and Johann Santana is 13 (and Michael Cuddyer is 19)
- Jermaine Dye is 7 and Jim Thome is 9.

In this respect, Jeter not only leads the league, but he also appears to stand out more from any of his teammates than his competition for MVP.


I hope you haters are hungry, so you can EAT IT

[EvanAparra]

I hope you haters are hungry, so you can EAT IT
Anything that shows Manny Ramirez to be 4th this season, isn't a viable resource for MVP voting.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Too the closer point you need to look no further than the Atlanta Braves or Cleveland Indinas as to how much a good closer helps, if Mo were a Brave the Braves would probably have atleast one more championship, and if Clevland's pen didn't blow like 28 saves they could have been in the playoff hunt. So I really think you're underrating a lights out closer. Also when Papelbon went down the Red Sox struggled to keep leads in the 9th.

[GiambiJuice]

Anything that shows Manny Ramirez to be 4th this season, isn't a viable resource for MVP voting.

Is 4th too low or to high?

[dl4060]

A bunch of Jeter haters here, what is it jealousy? I mean I'm jealous of him too, I mean Jessica Alba, Adriana Lima, Scarlett Johanson, Mariah Carey, Ms. Universe, Jordana Brewster...the list goes on and on. Seriously though, what is it with the Jeter haters.



This has been beaten to death....It is not jealousy with Jeter. There are many professional athletes and actors who have incredible records with women, that has nothing to do with it. The list of celebrities most of us have jealousy towards is endless. The attitude towards Jeter is what it is because as good as he is, he is overrated by the media. We have to hear so much about him that we get sick of it. Jeter is a great player, but he has never been the best in baseball. He was great this year, but we have been forced to listen to anouncers gush about him over and over and over.......I remember a comment from the summer which was brought to my attention. I grew up in New York, but now live in California. The sports radio in NY, WFAN, was addressing some type of bench clearing or mound charging situation....And the commentator just HAD to bring it up that while many players would have charged the mound in a given situation, Jeter would not have. The Yankees were not in the game. Jeter had NOTHING to do with the situation. But this media monkey just HAD to bring up what a wonderful guy Derek was. This garbage has been forced down our throat for ten years....Jeter wins gold gloves he has no business getting. He is a great player, he has terrific intangibles, and he is a wonderful image for the game. But enough already...We have been force fed this crap for so long we are sick and tired of it. Many of us are tired of him being put on a pedestal. Arod is a better shortstop any day of the week. Nomar was better before he started getting hurt. In a way I am very glad that DJ stayed in NY and has not won a world series in six years. If he had left after 2000, and gone to say Milwaukee, we would have legions of people talking about how he was the key to their titles, going on and on and on about it. At least now we know that teams won those rings, DJ did not do it all by himself. I remember back in 2000 hearing that Arod would probably not sign with the mets because he "would not want to be the second best SS in NY" or something idiotic like that. Any media moron who looked at Jeter after 2000 and Arod after 2000 and came to the conclusion that Jeter was a better baseball player frankly has no business writing about baseball. In a sense I wish DJ had played his career somewhere else, so that we could appreciate him for the wonderful player he actually is, not the overhyped icon the media has made him.

[EvanAparra]

Is 4th too low or to high?
Too high. He missed a whole month of the season, wasn't a good guy to have on team (Asking for trades, b*tching and moaning) was lazy on the basepaths and in the field. No way he should be 4th in MVP voting.

[dl4060]

Not that I'm advocating this as definitive proof, but Jeter did have the most Win Shares in the AL last year, which shows that he contributed to more wins for his team than anyone else in the league, and isn't that a good measure of value? Here's how the top 20 in Win Shares breaks down in the AL courtesy of the hardballtimes.com. (http://http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&season_filter%5B%5D=2006&league_filter%5B%5D=AL&pos_filter%5B%5D=All&Submit=Submit)

1) Derek Jeter (Yankees) - 32.6
2) Joe Mauer (Twins) - 30.8
3) David Ortiz (Red Sox) - 29.4
4) Manny Ramirez (Red Sox) - 29.0
5) Justin Morneau (Twins) - 27.5
6) Raul Ibanez (Mariners) - 27.1
7) Jermaine Dye (White Sox) - 26.5
8) Michael Young (Rangers) - 26.2
9) Jim Thome (White Sox) - 25.9
10) Carlos Guillen (Tigers) - 25.8
11) Vernon Wells (Blue Jays) - 25.4
12) Vladimir Guerrero (Angels) - 25.2
t13) Johann Santana (Twins) - 25.0
t13) Travis Hafner (Indians) - 25.0
15) Alex Rodriguez (Yankees) - 24.8
16) Ichiro Suzuki (Mariners ) - 24.2
t17) Jorge Posada (Yankees) - 23.6
t17) Jason Kendall (Athletics) - 23.6
19) Michael Cuddyer (Twins) - 23.5
20) Carl Crawford (Devil Rays) - 23.4

Interestingly, for all the talk of Jeter playing with so many other great players, despite the losses of Sheffield and Matsui, he is only viable MVP candidate without a teammate in the top 10 in Win Shares:

- David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez are 3 and 4.
- Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau are 2 and 5, and Johann Santana is 13 (and Michael Cuddyer is 19)
- Jermaine Dye is 7 and Jim Thome is 9.

In this respect, Jeter not only leads the league, but he also appears to stand out more from any of his teammates than his competition for MVP.


Win Shares also show Will Clark in 1989 as being better than Ted Williams in 1941. I am aware of what they attempt to show, I just think they are far from perfect. Jeter would not be a bad choice for MVP this year. He would not have been bad in 1999 either. When I read comments from Yankee fans like "Jeter was obviously the best player in the AL in 1999" (it was certainly not obvious, it was arguable at best) I become pretty reactive. The problem with many(certainly not all) Yankee fans and media members is they have DJ so far up on a pedestal that when he is statistically one of the top 5 players in the league they take it as a foregone conclusion that he is the best. His media created aura far greater than what he actually is. I really hope the vote is close, as I don't want this season to be remembered as one where Jeter was head and shoulders above everyone else. He had a terrific season, but I really don't need to ever read another article about him again. As I said before, more of us would be able to appreciate him if he were not constantly rammed down our throats.

[ESPNFan]

I hope you haters are hungry, so you can EAT IT

While I'm not a "Hater" per say, I would suppose that if I was a "Hater" I'd like to chew and digest the information you would like serve up to us. I'm also no where near a sabermatrician or a stat wizard but I'll take a stab and if I'm off someone please correct me.

Jeter has the most Winshares on that list but remember his team also won the most games. If you look at the players winshare totals and divide them by the total wins of their Ballclubs. Just after a casual glance Raul Ibanez, David Ortiz both surpass Jeter in terms of winshares/total team wins. And Beating them all is Carl Crawford whose winshare total accounted for 38.3% of his teams total wins.

Now call me crazy or did I just make up a new stat? :crazy
I have a sneaking suspision this may not end well for me mathmatically LOL

[Redlightning]

You have to realize, though, that Jeter managed 97 RBIs batting behind a .285 hitter and a .342 hitter. David Ortiz got 137 hitting behind a .285 hitter and a .264 hitter (and drew 117 walks, Jeter drew 69. If AL pitchers weren't so afraid, who knows what Ortiz's RBI total would be?). Not to mention an OPS of .636, compared to .483, lower than more than half the Yankee lineup.

[jeterMVP]

You have to realize, though, that Jeter managed 97 RBIs batting behind a .285 hitter and a .342 hitter. David Ortiz got 137 hitting behind a .285 hitter and a .264 hitter (and drew 117 walks, Jeter drew 69. If AL pitchers weren't so afraid, who knows what Ortiz's RBI total would be?). Not to mention an OPS of .636, compared to .483, lower than more than half the Yankee lineup.
you know who helped his team to a better record than the Toronto Blue Jays?

[Redlightning]

you know who helped his team to a better record than the Toronto Blue Jays?
Not Coco Crisp, Josh Beckett, Rudy Seanez, or Craig Hansen. Put Jeter on the Royals and you'd still have a losing team.

[jeterMVP]

Put Jeter on the Royals and you'd still have a losing team.
same can be said about any single player in the major leagues

[EvanAparra]

you know who helped his team to a better record than the Toronto Blue Jays?
The same could be said for every player on every team that had a better record than the Blue Jays. Jeter will probably win the MVP, and maybe he deserves it.

[Redlightning]

same can be said about any single player in the major leagues
Yes, but you were saying that Jeter "helped his team to a better record than the Toronto Blue Jays." Jeter also had a supporting case that batted .285 or something, a luxury not provided to David Ortiz. What I'm saying is that people, such as you, are basically giving the Yankees the MVP. Not Derek Jeter.

[IAmSmarterThanYou]

But ahh... Win Shares isn't a everything. It isn't even a statistic. 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, BB, Avg., SLG., OBP., OPS, (OPS+ is NOT) RBI, R... those are real statistics. Win Shares are not.

[DoubleX]

You have to realize, though, that Jeter managed 97 RBIs batting behind a .285 hitter and a .342 hitter. David Ortiz got 137 hitting behind a .285 hitter and a .264 hitter (and drew 117 walks, Jeter drew 69. If AL pitchers weren't so afraid, who knows what Ortiz's RBI total would be?). Not to mention an OPS of .636, compared to .483, lower than more than half the Yankee lineup.

You convienetly left out the little tidbit that the guy batting behind Ortiz is named Manny Ramirez. Ortiz had very ample protection in his own right, and arguably the best single protection in baseball. Ortiz also got to sit on the bench the entire game and think about nothing but hitting in between his maybe 10-15 minutes of actual physical contribution in a game.

Anyway, this really isn't a Yankees/Red Sox debate. It's a Jeter vs. the field debate and the field is much larger than David Ortiz and has a number of very viable candidates.

[Redlightning]

You convienetly left out the little tidbit that the guy batting behind Ortiz is named Manny Ramirez. Ortiz had very ample protection in his own right, and arguably the best single protection in baseball. Ortiz also got to sit on the bench the entire game and think about nothing but hitting in between his maybe 10-15 minutes of actual physical contribution in a game.
Ah, but you see, the men batting behind Derek Jeter included A-Rod and Gary Sheffield/Bobby Abreu. And as for the DH argument, you're right, that's something we can't explain. (But if Rafi Palmeiro can win a GG playing 10 games at first...)

[wigglestrue]

While I'm not a "Hater" per say, I would suppose that if I was a "Hater" I'd like to chew and digest the information you would like serve up to us. I'm also no where near a sabermatrician or a stat wizard but I'll take a stab and if I'm off someone please correct me.

Jeter has the most Winshares on that list but remember his team also won the most games. If you look at the players winshare totals and divide them by the total wins of their Ballclubs. Just after a casual glance Raul Ibanez, David Ortiz both surpass Jeter in terms of winshares/total team wins. And Beating them all is Carl Crawford whose winshare total accounted for 38.3% of his teams total wins.

Now call me crazy or did I just make up a new stat? :crazy
I have a sneaking suspision this may not end well for me mathmatically LOL

You're crazy!!! Like a fox!!!

Can we get a top 20 for WS/team wins?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Considering the Red Sox late season fade, I don't see how a Boston player could be considered a serious candidate for the award. Ortiz had great numbers. But I've always considered the award to be beyond numbers.
And also eligible to player of all teams, not just two.

[hellborn]

...
Jeter has the most Winshares on that list but remember his team also won the most games. If you look at the players winshare totals and divide them by the total wins of their Ballclubs. Just after a casual glance Raul Ibanez, David Ortiz both surpass Jeter in terms of winshares/total team wins. And Beating them all is Carl Crawford whose winshare total accounted for 38.3% of his teams total wins.

Now call me crazy or did I just make up a new stat? :crazy
I have a sneaking suspision this may not end well for me mathmatically LOL
According to Bill James, the magic of Win Shares is that it is supposed to measure the value of the player independent of team performance, but give this value in terms of a team statistic. If you calculate the Win Shares for all the players on a team and then add them all up, the total should be about 3X the number of team wins. Why a win share is 1/3 of a win, I'm not sure...
So, if you divide a player's Win Shares by the actual team wins, I think that you're just sort of measuring how good or bad the team was compared to that player. But, if Jeter had the same season with the Royals, is there any reason to say that he's better or worse than having it for the Yanks?

[DoubleX]

Now call me crazy or did I just make up a new stat? :crazy
I have a sneaking suspision this may not end well for me mathmatically LOL

Nah, I was aware of that, I just conveniently left it out because it didn't help my argument and was hoping no one would catch on. :)

Also, in theory, it doesn't matter how many total games a team wins because win shares seeks to measure the contribution that each player made towards those wins. Standout players on bad teams will naturally contribute more to the win total, and thus will still have a high win share percentage and a high total, even though their team does not have a high total. On teams with lots of wins, in theory, that team should have a lot of players contributing and thus more people to share the pie with. So basically, Carl Crawford gets more to himself of a smaller pie, whereas someone like Derek Jeter has to share more of a bigger pie. Nevertheless, the pie would not be as big as it is if not for that player's production - so in theory, if Jeter didn't play, the team would not have accumulated his 33 win shares (and instead whatever his replacement contributed). So in this respect, the player who has the most win shares has in theory, produced the most for his team. Basically, its the individuals that make up the win shares, and not vice versa. Win shares show that Jeter did the most as an individual in the league to contribute to wins.

Does that make sense (because I think I've confused myself)?

[hellborn]

Considering the Red Sox late season fade, I don't see how a Boston player could be considered a serious candidate for the award. Ortiz had great numbers. But I've always considered the award to be beyond numbers.
And also eligible to player of all teams, not just two.

Well, that's been a debate for decades...should players from non-playoff teams get serious consideration in MVP voting. Ortiz was clearly his magical self in big situations again this year, but the wheels fell off around him...to my mind, he provided excellent leadership and intangibles, except for his MVP whine late in the year (which was pretty flawed logically, too). Should he be punished for this?
I don't believe that the voting rules say anything about this, so it's up to each voter, and I don't think that they're going to care what any of us think. But, I do see some merit in arguing that the value of a player is not so great if his team doesn't at least reach the goal of the postseason. Maybe if a player on a mediocre team has an absolutely overwhelming season, he should get the MVP, but a more evenly matched field should favor the playoff-bound players.
This is probably a bigger question in the NL, with Pujols and Howard. I think that Pujols is better overall and his team made the playoffs, but Howard was just so huge in the Phils' run in the 2nd half and clearly inspired his team. Should voters just say too bad to Howie because they came up just short?

[hellborn]

Considering the Red Sox late season fade, I don't see how a Boston player could be considered a serious candidate for the award. Ortiz had great numbers. But I've always considered the award to be beyond numbers.
And also eligible to player of all teams, not just two.

Any thoughts on Phil Taylor's contention that Derek should not be the MVP because he failed to exercise leadership as team captain and help ARod with his struggles? I think that it was clear that Derek just stood back from the situation, maybe even let ARod twist in the wind a little bit...don't think that you can argue that he helped the team out by doing that.
I don't know that I agree with Phil on this being a determining factor in an MVP vote, but I find it hard to defend Derek on this when he is supposed to be the team captain.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Well, if Howard doesn't win the MVP award, this will be the second consecutive season, and second EVER, where the NL leader in homers and RBI doesn't win the MVP.

[DoubleX]

Any thoughts on Phil Taylor's contention that Derek should not be the MVP because he failed to exercise leadership as team captain and help ARod with his struggles? I think that it was clear that Derek just stood back from the situation, maybe even let ARod twist in the wind a little bit...don't think that you can argue that he helped the team out by doing that.
I don't know that I agree with Phil on this being a determining factor in an MVP vote, but I find it hard to defend Derek on this when he is supposed to be the team captain.

I read that article too and it was a good point by Taylor. The fact that Jeter, the captain, didn't come to A-Rod's defense, but readily came to defend Giambi, said a lot to me about Jeter. But, I'm not going to determine the MVP award on that. I think the media tends to overblow the coldness between Jeter and A-Rod, and we really don't see what happens behind the clubhouse doors. If a player was actually throwing teammates under a bus, then I could see holding that against a player - Jeter's crime was that he didn't do anything. He didn't have to, he should have, but how much of a factor should that be in the MVP dicussion?

[LGehrigFan]

Hmm... I THINK that the batting title goes to the guy with the higher batting average after 502 ABs. So, that make Mauer more deserving, ya know, since he actually won it.

I never said that Jeter deserved the batting title, cause obviously whoever has a higher average wins. It's not a matter of deserving. I implied he's more deserving of the MVP because the thread topic is "Jeter wins MVP?"

Nice job assuming, though, EvanAparra.

However, it's called efficiency. Awesome, Mauer can bat 4 more points in Jeter, but in 100 less ABs. I'd know who I'd rather have on my team, regardless of my favorite team. Plus, Jeter has Mauer beat in so many other categories.

Don't worry, though, the writers will take care of your "deserving" concerns.

[EvanAparra]

Jeter batted .343 in 623 AB with more SO, 102, compared to Mauer batting .004 points higher than him in more than 100 less AB. This is just one of the many numbers that make Jeter more deserving than Mauer.
Haha, ok... You quoted me talking about Mauer deserving the batting title and said this. But I guess that means you are speaking about the MVP? I think I did a great job of assuming. Anyway, Jeter is going to win the MVP, I think the case is closed on that one.

[LGehrigFan]

Haha, ok... You quoted me talking about Mauer deserving the batting title and said this. But I guess that means you are speaking about the MVP? I think I did a great job of assuming. Anyway, Jeter is going to win the MVP, I think the case is closed on that one.

And you quoted me assuming I was talking about the batting title. But you were wrong. Don't worry though. ;)

[EvanAparra]

Don't worry though. ;)
I'm not. You don't make sense anyway. Keep it to Jeter's MVP chances, mmk?

[wigglestrue]

Jeter is definitely going to win MVP.
If he were even half as deserving as he is, he'd still win it.
But he's actually, truly, genuinely deserving. So it's a lock.

[cardsfanatic]

Too the closer point you need to look no further than the Atlanta Braves or Cleveland Indinas as to how much a good closer helps, if Mo were a Brave the Braves would probably have atleast one more championship, and if Clevland's pen didn't blow like 28 saves they could have been in the playoff hunt. So I really think you're underrating a lights out closer. Also when Papelbon went down the Red Sox struggled to keep leads in the 9th.

How do you figure? Rivera wasn't even a big factor in the WS's the Yankees won. Go back and look at the box scores and playoff series for the Yankees. Having Rivera didn't hurt but he was a far f'ing cry from their most important player.

[Mattingly]

Not Coco Crisp, Josh Beckett, Rudy Seanez, or Craig Hansen. Put Jeter on the Royals and you'd still have a losing team.
That could likely be said about Barry Bonds from 2001-2004. This says more about the Royals than anyone else.

Jeter doesn't get all those hits if he's got nobody hitting behind him. His hits were the result of a loaded lineup, but he was still about the most important player on that Yankee lineup.

He also wouldn't be garnering anywhere near the amount of publicity had he been on the Royals either.

[Redlightning]

Jeter doesn't get all those hits if he's got nobody hitting behind him. His hits were the result of a loaded lineup, but he was still about the most important player on that Yankee lineup.
That was what I was trying to say, nothing against the Royals, but Jeter had a little help. Though, you are right saying that he was certainly the Yanks MVP.

[Mattingly]

That was what I was trying to say, nothing against the Royals, but Jeter had a little help. Though, you are right saying that he was certainly the Yanks MVP.
Anybody on the Yanks has a little help. Around 2002, he had Soriano batting leadoff and Giambi batting #3. Still, I think he'd slumped that year (haven't checked the facts, but remember that happening).

He's long been our sparkplug, so it's no surprise. If he helps the tema hit well, then the "help" could've come from himself, not necessarily a direct result of the lineup he's in. By that, I'm saying it's not a "given" that he hits well because of the lineup. At times, when a teammate is hitting well, the rest of the lineup picks up the slack. It's a 2-way street.

As to the Yankee MVP, yes, I most definitely believe that would be him for 9 innings a day on a regular basis.

[EvanAparra]

I think the NL MVP is a lot more interesting than the AL.

[W_Marone]

Why would a guy like Chase Utley take away from howard in the NL, same with Beltran with the rest of the mets, but not Jeter with the stacked lineup he has in the Bronx.

[Neilios]

Like A-Rod, a guy with such an illustrious career has to have one or two MVP's under his belt by the time he's done. This year he'll get it because there's no real reason for him not to. He's a star player who hasn't won it yet. The argument of the competition having dual help (Mauer, Morneau; Dye, Thome; Ramirez, Ortiz) is in his favor. There's the "feel good" story (:laugh) that two of their "stars" went down and he "stepped up" in a time of need. He was in the batting race. Again. His team won the division. Again. Now the stars are aligned and this is the year that he gets his predetermined MVP. Predetermined being a fasicious term, but you knew one was coming for him, it was just a matter of when, how and what year do we have the best argument. Kind of the same thing with A-Rod. He didn't have competition.

[Rapmaster]

How do you figure? Rivera wasn't even a big factor in the WS's the Yankees won. Go back and look at the box scores and playoff series for the Yankees. Having Rivera didn't hurt but he was a far f'ing cry from their most important player.

I'd disagree. How many more World Series could the Braves have one in the 90s had they had a legitimate closer? People say that a closer is overrated as it's only 3 outs. In the postseason, 3 outs is a big enough opportunity for something to happen.

In the regular season, a closer is an important aspect to have as well. A solid closer adds somewhat of a sense of certainty and assurance that the game is won as the ninth inning approaches. As he mentioned earlier, you see the Braves bullpen this year? I don't remember exact figures but their cumulative save percentage was somewhere around 50-60% until they traded for Wickman. They blew something like 24 saves up to the all-star break. Convert half of those, 12, and you have a 91 win season.

[Neilios]

On a side note, I find it quite amusing that the title of this thread ends with a question mark, as if we're covering new ground here. :)

[hellborn]

Why would a guy like Chase Utley take away from howard in the NL, same with Beltran with the rest of the mets, but not Jeter with the stacked lineup he has in the Bronx.
Well, ARod had a rather poor year by his own standards (more in the field than with the bat) and was surrounded by controversy, so he's not going to get much consideration. Cano is just starting his career, much younger than Jeter, not a favorite with the media or fans yet, and also a very similar player to Jeter in a surface way, so Jeter is going to totally obscure him in the voting. None of the Yanks pitchers had knockout years, which is what it takes for a pitcher to get MVP consideration.
I don't think that Utley is going to affect Howard much...I can see Delgado and Beltran taking votes from each other, but Wright's late season slump is going to hurt him a lot. A shame, because I am a big Wright fan.

[hellborn]

Anybody else think that the Yanks should have left Jeter at leadoff? He kills Damon in OBP, is a good baserunner even if not quite as fast as Johnny, and Damon's power would probably be a little more useful in the #2 spot or even lower. Damon's base stealing prowess would actually be more useful to the team if he's batting after the big guns, when you're more likely to actually let a player run.
As a Bosox fan, I vote for keeping Damon at leadoff...:laugh

[DoubleX]

Anybody else think that the Yanks should have left Jeter at leadoff? He kills Damon in OBP, is a good baserunner even if not quite as fast as Johnny, and Damon's power would probably be a little more useful in the #2 spot or even lower. Damon's base stealing prowess would actually be more useful to the team if he's batting after the big guns, when you're more likely to actually let a player run.
As a Bosox fan, I vote for keeping Damon at leadoff...:laugh

That's a good point, especially because of Damon's power. But watching Jeter over the years, he seems to be a more productive and patient hitter when batting 2nd.

[hellborn]

That's a good point, especially because of Damon's power. But watching Jeter over the years, he seems to be a more productive and patient hitter when batting 2nd.

I also get the feeling that Jeter is at his best with men on base, that he concentrates more on hitting the ball hard the other way in that situation. He'd lose a lot of opportunities to hit with men on as the leadoff man.
Obviously, either man is a good choice to lead off, it's quibbling to argue over which one is best. But, I like to quibble...:waving

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well, if Howard doesn't win the MVP award, this will be the second consecutive season, and second EVER, where the NL leader in homers and RBI doesn't win the MVP.

Well I dunno Pujols has a strong case, but so did D-Lee and Aundrew Jones last season. I guess atleast Howard kept the Phillies in the race even with loosing Abreu and Liddle, plus he had monster stats he should win.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I read that article too and it was a good point by Taylor. The fact that Jeter, the captain, didn't come to A-Rod's defense, but readily came to defend Giambi, said a lot to me about Jeter. But, I'm not going to determine the MVP award on that. I think the media tends to overblow the coldness between Jeter and A-Rod, and we really don't see what happens behind the clubhouse doors. If a player was actually throwing teammates under a bus, then I could see holding that against a player - Jeter's crime was that he didn't do anything. He didn't have to, he should have, but how much of a factor should that be in the MVP dicussion?

Well the media tends to blow everything out of proportion, they forgot to leave out that A-Rod still had 120 RBIs, only ten or so less than hseason. Everyone says that Jeter is overrated, overrated by whom? Last e had last season Sporting News gave Jeter a 9.3 on their player rankings, but they gave Tejada a 10, so maybe he's underrated by some. The thing with Ortiz is that he has possibly the best right handed hitter EVER behind him. Manny is a machine, he's lazy doesn't really care, but christ almighty can that guy hit. Ortiz was Joe-Average without Manny now with Manny it's like he's Reggie Jackson or something. Also the Yankees most dangerous hitter was hurt for most of the season, and possibly their best (Matsui, most Yankees seem to think that he's their best) was hurt aswell. A-Rod was struggling. Giambi was good, but still that's only one guy. Jeter did a lot he probably deserves the MVP (either him or Santana), and he shouldn't be penalzied for playing on a good team...(neither should Beltran, Utley, or Howard).

[cardsfanatic]

I'd disagree. How many more World Series could the Braves have one in the 90s had they had a legitimate closer? People say that a closer is overrated as it's only 3 outs. In the postseason, 3 outs is a big enough opportunity for something to happen.

In the regular season, a closer is an important aspect to have as well. A solid closer adds somewhat of a sense of certainty and assurance that the game is won as the ninth inning approaches. As he mentioned earlier, you see the Braves bullpen this year? I don't remember exact figures but their cumulative save percentage was somewhere around 50-60% until they traded for Wickman. They blew something like 24 saves up to the all-star break. Convert half of those, 12, and you have a 91 win season.

Closers are overhyped because over the past 7 years there's been patch work closer solutions all over the MLB that have been just as effective as the "great" closers. There's plenty of other teams that won WS's without Mariano Rivera, John Smoltz, Billy Wagner, Eric Gagne and Trevor Hoffman. In fact, uhhh, Rivera is the only closer in that bunch to pitch the 9th for a WS winner. While guys like Braden Looper and Byung-Yun Kim, and Adam Wainright all closed for World Champs. Patch work closer situations work year in and year out.

The key thing with a closer is that you have to stop the opposing offense for 24 outs before the last 3 matter -- not to mention you have to score enough runs to put yourself in the position to win with offense of your own. A closer is completely secondary and that's why it's less important than offense and staters. You have to navigate your way through 24 outs and A) keep the other offense from scoring and B) score enough yourself to put you in line for a win. How anyone can claim a closer is the "biggest component to a winning team" is beyond me.

But let's look at Rivera's role in the 4 WS's the Yanks won.

In 1996 Rivera wasn't the Yanks closer. So knock one off his total as a closer. In 1998, Rivera was the closer but the Yanks just smashed the Pads to smithereens. They scored 27 runs and gave up 11. Rivera closed only one tight ballgame. He pitched the 9th inning in game three which was the only 1-run game of the entire series. Every other game was a 3+ run blowout by the Yankees.

So, I'm pretty sure they would have won that series without Rivera.

1999, another Yankee Massacre. They outscored the Braves 22-9 and the Braves scored 1 run, 1 run, 2 runs and 5 runs on the Braves pitching. The starting pitching of the Yankees totally dominated the Braves as 3 of those 9 runs were scored on the bullpen. Yet again, Rivera pitched in only one tight ballgame. A 6-5 win by the Yankees in game 3. Every other game was well in hand.

So, I'm sure that's 3 WS the Yanks would have without Rivera.

2000, another route. You know, I'm seeing a trend here. The Yanks seem to winning these things with great offense and starting pitching. Although Rivera did manage to save two close ballgames this time. A 1-run game and a 2-run game. Ultimately, the offense and pitching staff of Clemens, Pettitte, Cone and El Duque seemed to save the day.

What happened to the Rivera led Yankees in 2001 and 2003? He let the likes of two teams being closed for by Byun-Hyun Kim and Braden Looper beat him? I mean, come on! This is Braden Looper and BK Kim we're talking about here. And those two managed to beat Mariano Rivera and those 24 other guys that didn't matter? Sad, sad day for closers. BK Kim and Looper "outsaved" the most important piece to the Yankee dynasty. :rolleyes:

[cardsfanatic]

In the regular season, a closer is an important aspect to have as well. A solid closer adds somewhat of a sense of certainty and assurance that the game is won as the ninth inning approaches. As he mentioned earlier, you see the Braves bullpen this year? I don't remember exact figures but their cumulative save percentage was somewhere around 50-60% until they traded for Wickman. They blew something like 24 saves up to the all-star break. Convert half of those, 12, and you have a 91 win season.

The thing is, even when they had Smoltz closing, they were still blowing a lot of saves. In fact, the average this year for blown saves was somewhere between 19-21. Just go to www.espn.com, search team stats and go to page 3. Blown saves. The median was somewhere between 19-21.

Blown saves happen. I don't care who your closer is.

In the 3 years Smoltz was closer the Braves had BS numbers of...

02 - 14
03 - 20
04 - 20

AVG - 18

Last year, without him as closer and in the starting rotation and they made the playoffs they blew 24 saves. So, the total rose exactly 4 blown saves above the previous two years under Smoltz.

This year the total was 29. Yes, it was bad but it's not far off previous years either. When they had a great closer and still blew 20 saves a season _and_ were beat first round of the playoffs.

EDIT: The average team blown saves - 21.4. So, the average MLB team blew 21.4 save ops.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Closers are overhyped because over the past 7 years there's been patch work closer solutions all over the MLB that have been just as effective as the "great" closers. There's plenty of other teams that won WS's without Mariano Rivera, John Smoltz, Billy Wagner, Eric Gagne and Trevor Hoffman. In fact, uhhh, Rivera is the only closer in that bunch to pitch the 9th for a WS winner. While guys like Braden Looper and Byung-Yun Kim, and Adam Wainright all closed for World Champs. Patch work closer situations work year in and year out.


Well none of those other guys that you mentioned were especially key in their teams victories, execpt for Wainwright. Make no mistake about it though Wainwright is a star in the making. The Nats considered trading Soriano for him and another player (utility player, or a middle of the road guy), THAT'S how good he is; that kid is a star in the making and now you can stick Izzy in the set up role. Also I wasn't saying that the previous guys were great clutch players, just Rivera. When teams win with patchwork closers they have lights out starting pitchers that go CGs, when you say Kim he played on the 2001 Dbacks (Schilling and Unit) and the 2003 Marlins (their entire staff could have gone the distance Beckett was lights out that series); Also what about the 2002 Angels? I'd say Frankie Rodriguez had a huge impact on that team.

[PhilWings24]

I think he'll also win the Cy Young, the ROY (both AL and NL), and even though he didn't play in it, he'll be retroactively awarded World Series co-MVP...because his intangibility is that omnipotent.

:eek:

it'd be nothing short of an outrage if that wasn't the case.

i often wonder how many derek jeters have spent their whole careers in the nl central, going unnoticed.

i'd be shocked if he didn't win the AL MVP though and, to be honest, its not much more ridiculous than your average AL MVP selection. Don't get me wrong; he is NOT the right choice; but the writers rarely do pick the right choice and jeter's cearly in the top 6 or 7.

[PhilWings24]

A bunch of Jeter haters here, what is it jealousy? I mean I'm jealous of him too, I mean Jessica Alba, Adriana Lima, Scarlett Johanson, Mariah Carey, Ms. Universe, Jordana Brewster...the list goes on and on. Seriously though, what is it with the Jeter haters.

objectivity. that is what's with the jeter haters.


I dunno, Jeter's got a good rep with the press. He seems (never talked to him, so I'm assuming like most everybody else) to be a genuinely nice, well-mannered individual. People hate the guy just because he's liked, that irks me. He's done nothing but positive things for the game.

You see guys like Ortiz, essentially, whining to the media. That's the type of behavior that loses these votes. Similarly, Presidents usually don't win due to their complex plans for the future, they win because they project themselves and portray themselves as favorably as possible.

Jeter's not the worst MVP candidate (Ronny Cedeno's still around and I guess you could vote for him in the NL) and it's true he doesn't have the numbers to accurately say he was the most productive all-around player. But he sells himself as an asset off and on the field. Good for him, I don't feel like he's done anything wrong to spurn him for winning something.

That being said, I would vote for Morneau.

good points, but its a gross over simplification to say we hate him cus he's liked. I like Tom Brady (and i am an eagles fan, not a pats fan- i live in philly but my dad turned me into a sox fan), i like Dwayne Wade despite the fact that people try and argue he's as good as Lebron. I LOVE lebron despite the fact he's played for 3 years and has already been crowned one of the best players of all time. I like Tiger Woods

What i don't like is a player who is simaltaneously overrated and smug. I can handle overratedness, i can handle smugness, i can't handle a player who loves talking about what a team player he is, takes a 19 mil a year contract, and then listening to the media talk ONLY talk about what a great team player he is.

I can't handle the fact that jeter's 99 (i might begetting the year mixed up, but you know what i mean) was CLEARLY the best year of hsi career, and this was CLEARLY the second. None of his others come even close. and in this season, i heard 4 or 5 different people say multiple times "this is what he does every year." and no one disagreed.

its not so much jeter that i hate, so much as i'm sick of people overstate his value so grossly.

one thing that i have to say though, that supports what i'm saying about how you ONLY hear the good with jeter (wheras with papi you hear the bad and the good, the fact of the matter is just that there's way way more good to hear than bad, at least among the stuff that reaches the media) in 2003, jeter said that his yankees team that year couldn't compare with the teams of 1998 and 1999, and essentially said that he was carrying the team to what success they were having at that point. in 2004, after the playoffs, he accused just about everyone on the team of being complacent at 3-0 and taking the rest of the series off. in that instance he didn't absolve himself from blame entirely, though, saying its tough not to feel good up 3-0. last year he again said that the team was a huge step down from where it had been in recent years, and that Randy Johnson needed to get his act together.

None of those things are terrible at all, don't get me wrong. but if manny says those things, itsa huge deal. even if papi says those things, as he is clearly loved by the media but not in the same way as jeter, they get considerable coverage. jeter says those things, and people say "well he's right. this is a worse team than the late 90's." that's not what happens to other players when they say true but unkind things about their team.

[plask_stirlac]

He's disliked because ultracasual fans know and admire him, more than the better players.

It combines with "savvy" sportswriters touting Jeter as BETTER than that, as if he's doing something truly special and most people are missing out. But many of the same writers would deem Lyle Overbay an "average" 1B Jason Bay a "good" player. We like to hear people telling the public how good Bay (like Guerrero) and others are.

Once Guerrero nearly got 40/40 and then moved to LA, he became well known.

[Rapmaster]

The thing is, even when they had Smoltz closing, they were still blowing a lot of saves. In fact, the average this year for blown saves was somewhere between 19-21. Just go to www.espn.com, search team stats and go to page 3. Blown saves. The median was somewhere between 19-21.

Blown saves happen. I don't care who your closer is.

In the 3 years Smoltz was closer the Braves had BS numbers of...

02 - 14
03 - 20
04 - 20

AVG - 18

Last year, without him as closer and in the starting rotation and they made the playoffs they blew 24 saves. So, the total rose exactly 4 blown saves above the previous two years under Smoltz.

This year the total was 29. Yes, it was bad but it's not far off previous years either. When they had a great closer and still blew 20 saves a season _and_ were beat first round of the playoffs.

EDIT: The average team blown saves - 21.4. So, the average MLB team blew 21.4 save ops.

To this and your first statement,

I'm not saying the last 3 outs are above and beyond hte first 24 outs. There's no denying that you gotta be winning in order for the closer to make any impact whatsoever. But reading moneyball, reading other peoples' comments, professional writers, etc... they all seem to be advocating that the closer is just another pitcher with a meaningless stat added to it. Beane was referenced to in Moneyball when he said he puts an above-average pitcher into the closer's role to boost their value, essentially, putting little value on the closer's role.

But for the Braves' closer's woes

1991 - Game 7, 10th inning. Normally time for a closer to be pitching. Alejandro Pena pitches (closer by committee essentially), the rest is history

1992 - Game 2, Jeff Reardon (during the twilight of his career) gives up 2 in ninth. Braves lose 5-4. Game 3, Reardon comes in again and gives up the hit, giving Avery the loss and a Blue Jays 3-2 victory.

1993 - No huge impact by closers, but Greg McMichael gave one up in the bottom of the 10th in game 1. In game 5, McMichael and Wohlers gave up 2 in hte 9th and 10th innings, negating a 3 run comeback in hte ninth.

1994 - Strike

1995 - WS Win, we'll skip this one as obviously it didn't matter

1996 - Avery gave up 2 in the top of the 10th to the Yanks in game 4.

1997 - Limited impact, games were won early on for the most part.

1998 - Kerry Ligtenberg and John Rocker blow a late 1-run lead and give it up in extras to the Padres in Game 1. Game 5 has Ligtenberg giving up 2 in hte bottom of the ninth. Maddux was called in to close it.

1999 - Game 3, Rocker gives up 2 to blow the lead in hte 8th. Remlinger gives it up in extras.

2000 - No impact, closers never made an apperance

2001 - No impact, steamrolled inthe CS again

2002 - No impact, steamrolled again

2003 - No impact, though an injured Smoltz gave up a lead in game 3 only to get it back quickly

2004 - Little impact, steamrolled again

2005 - Reitsma, Foster, and Brower give up 5 in a 10-5 loss in game 1 to the Astros. Reitsma was the supposed closer. Farnsie gives up the homer in the ninth inning of game 4, after Hudson gives up the slam in the eighth.

In the 90s, when they played a lot of close games. The Braves had no real closer, they lost a lot of late inning leads. I understand that happens from time to time, but that's a lot more than average. How many blown saves does Mariano have in hte postseason? Probably a lot less than hte Braves closers in hte early-mid 90s.

This year's total wasn't that bad by the end of the season. But if you looked at the numbers at mid-season (before they acquired Wickman), the numbers were terrible. They were around 20 at the all-star break. Also, this year, a lot more ninth inning leads were given up. I can't quantitatively say at this point (I gotta go, i'll get back to it) but watching the Braves this year, it was a struggle. Ken Ray, Reitsma, etc... just blew chunks. For "only" 3 outs, they blew a lot of leads in that narrow span of time.

[Rookie1914]

Just a casual question to Yankee fans.

Knowing what we know about Your team's, owner, players, resources and on feild management style, if one player was lost for a season who would you chose to give up between Rivera and Jeter?

This is a whole other question. Maybe create another thread for it...

[EvanAparra]

This is a whole other question. Maybe creat another thread for it...
I think its a pretty easy question to answer.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

meAnyone hear honest enough to admit that most of the whining is taking place because Jeter plays for the most hated team in baseball. Can any of the crybabies admit that if Jeter did not play for the Yankees that they would not have such a terrible tummy ach.

How about using some common sense, set aside your personal feelings and judge him for what he did on the field.

Are there some solid arguments that it could have been some one else, of course, but "some" of those making all the noise act as though this was an injustice of the greatest magnitude. It's that damn NY on the uniform, they just can't admit it.

[hellborn]

Anyone hear honest enough to admit that most of the whining is taking place because Jeter plays for the most hated team in baseball. Can any of the crybabies admit that if Jeter did not play for the Yankees that they would not have such a terrible tummy ach.

How about using some common sense, set aside your personal feelings and judge him for what he did on the field.

Are there some solid arguments that it could have been some one else, of course, but "most" of those making all the noise act as though this was an injustice of the greatest magnitude. It's that damn NY on the uniform, they just can't admit it.
I don't think that you've been reading the posts here!
I don't like anybody being hyped to the skies beyond what is reasonable for any mortal person...Pete Rose, Puckett, McGwire, Sosa, Rivera, ARod, Jeter, Christina Aguilera, Newt Gingrich. Anybody who is exalted to a ridiculous level will turn out to be a disappointment in the end. And, I admit 100% that I don't like the Yankees one bit, but I have still posted before that Jeter would be a good choice for MVP, in my eyes. I don't think that debate on the issue should be cut off, but he is a fine player and had a fine season. I would love to have Jeter on the Bosox, but I will say honestly that I would be happier seeing him at 2B than SS.
I think that it is sad that ARod, a better SS, had to change positions because a lesser fielder had a silly "mystique" that made it impossible to move him for the good of the team. And the whole blind Jeter worship thing just makes me sick. The man is a baseball player...a very good one, but one with flaws as a player and as a person. And, he is not bigger than his team, but people sure act like he is.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I think that it is sad that ARod, a better SS, had to change positions because a lesser fielder had a silly "mystique" that made it impossible to move him for the good of the team. And the whole blind Jeter worship thing just makes me sick. The man is a baseball player...a very good one, but one with flaws as a player and as a person. And, he is not bigger than his team, but people sure act like he is.


Hey like I said don't hate the player hate the game. You said PEOPLE act like he is, you never hear him talk EVER. He isn't Chad Johnson, he isn't Terrell Owens. He has zero steroid accusations on him. He's a nice guy has his own charity, he's a handsome man...face it he's good for baseball. He has become the face of Major League Baseball. He's also a good face for the game, no is saying that he is the game's best player (that honor belongs to a teammate of his), he plays on baseball's best franchise, in the country's biggest market. Yeah he's going to get a lot of attention, but instead of bitching about him bitch about ESPN. He can't control the coverage he gets. Hellborn you have a very fair opinion of Jeter, and you're a Red Sox fan so I think that makes you the most reasonable person on this thread. However, I think you shouldn't be sick of him but sick of the media. Stop watching ESPN, get TiVo and Extra Innings so you can just watch the games; that way you don't have to deal with the hype, or commericals ;).

[EvanAparra]

You said PEOPLE act like he is, you never hear him talk EVER.

Maybe thats the problem, maybe he should stick up for his teammates more often.


However, I think you shouldn't be sick of him but sick of the media.

Why? I get sick of everyone thats on TV all the time, it has nothing to do with his personality or him as a player, just that hes always on tv. Sorry, but i'm going ot be sick of him the same way i'm sick of Peyton Manning, and I'm a big Manning fan, so there's not Red Sox/Yankee bias in that.


Stop watching ESPN, get TiVo and Extra Innings so you can just watch the games; that way you don't have to deal with the hype, or commericals ;).

Wanna buy it for me? :)

[ChrisLDuncan]

Maybe thats the problem, maybe he should stick up for his teammates more often.



Why? I get sick of everyone thats on TV all the time, it has nothing to do with his personality or him as a player, just that hes always on tv. Sorry, but i'm going ot be sick of him the same way i'm sick of Peyton Manning, and I'm a big Manning fan, so there's not Red Sox/Yankee bias in that.



Wanna buy it for me? :)

Well I'm not accusing Jeter haters that are Red Sox fans of Bias, I'm just saying that they shouldn't hate HIM because he's on TV, it isn't his fault

Also I suggest you stop wasting time on fever and get a job ;) :crazy :eek:

[W_Marone]

I got a job, and you dont have to get Tivo or Extra innings to watch the Yankees, they're games are on ESPN almost twice a week during the season.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I got a job, and you dont have to get Tivo or Extra innings to watch the Yankees, they're games are on ESPN almost twice a week during the season.

Actually ESPN only shows on average about two games a week during the regular season Sunday Night Baseball and Wendsday/Thursday Night Baseball, plus with Extra Innings you don't get/have to listen to Joe Morgan.

[Evangelion]

ESPN show games on Monday occassionally as well.

[DoubleX]

Maybe thats the problem, maybe he should stick up for his teammates more often.

He usually does. Not coming to bat for A-Rod (on a few occasions), is really the only example. Jeter even spoke out for Giambi during his troubles.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I don't think that you've been reading the posts here!

I think that it is sad that ARod, a better SS, had to change positions because a lesser fielder had a silly "mystique" that made it impossible to move him for the good of the team. And the whole blind Jeter worship thing just makes me sick. The man is a baseball player...a very good one, but one with flaws as a player and as a person. And, he is not bigger than his team, but people sure act like he is.

I have been reading the posting on this theme.
What your bringing up now has nothing to do with my views on some of the posting on this subject, Jeter and the MVP.

I don't disagree with much of what you say, it could have been AROD at short and Jeter moving. It's also true that some Yankee fans overrate Jeter. But thats not what I was trying to get across in my previous post. My point, that some just don't like Jeter and they are making a bigger stink out of the whole deal.. because it's him.

I'm sure there are some who don't dislike him and still believe that he should not have been MVP.... but lets be realistic, we know how much he is disliked by many and unfortunate that they put their personal feelings into the matter.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

[QUOTE=EvanAparra]Maybe thats the problem, maybe he should stick up for his teammates more often.

/QUOTE]
Thats a problem, because he didn't go to bat for AROD. He had backed up other teammates.

[-Kyle-]

But ahh... Win Shares isn't a everything. It isn't even a statistic. 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, BB, Avg., SLG., OBP., OPS, (OPS+ is NOT) RBI, R... those are real statistics. Win Shares are not.
Win Shares is a statistic, it is more complex.

[538280]

But ahh... Win Shares isn't a everything. It isn't even a statistic. 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, BB, Avg., SLG., OBP., OPS, (OPS+ is NOT) RBI, R... those are real statistics. Win Shares are not.

Well, who knows what your personal definition of the word "statistic" is, but regardless of whether they meet that defintion, Win Shares are a very useful tool in determining the value of baseball players, and MUCH more useful and accurate than any of those statistics you cited used in isolation.

Win Shares are not perfect, no one has ever claimed that they are, but they are a method with actually has to do with why teams score runs and win games. They base their conclusions upon what correlates with team wins and runs scored, not on ridiculous historical cliches and such. They are a means to an end, but they are a very important thing to know, and they are usually very accurate.

[Yankee Legend]

Just a casual question to Yankee fans.

Knowing what we know about Your team's, owner, players, resources and on feild management style, if one player was lost for a season who would you chose to give up between Rivera and Jeter?

Considering our other options to Rivera are Proctor or Farnsworth, I would actually give up Jeter, who's my favorite player. Watching the Yankees lately, I know the impact a Mo has on the game. If Jeter gets injured, we would just move Arod to short and phillips to 3rd.

[Evangelion]

Does win shares take into account the negative effect a player might have on a team?

[DoubleX]

Does win shares take into account the negative effect a player might have on a team?

It does in that a player would be in line to earn less win shares.

[Evangelion]

It does in that a player would be in line to earn less win shares.
Would he receive negative win shares for costing a team a win? Like, a blown save by a closer. Not quite sure how the statistic work.

[DoubleX]

Would he receive negative win shares for costing a team a win? Like, a blown save by a closer. Not quite sure how the statistic work.

Not exactly (though I believe some systems have negative win shares), he would just be in line to earn less win shares. It balances out in the end. If you have two players that play SS and Player A has 20 errors and Player B has 10 errors, the result of Player A's errors will be to have earned less defensive win shares. Basically, you have to do positive things to earn win shares - so the more positive things a player does, the more win shares they will earn. If a player is doing negative things, they can't earn win shares and thus win shares will show them to be less valuable than the player who did more positive things.

[hellborn]

Not exactly (though I believe some systems have negative win shares), he would just be in line to earn less win shares. It balances out in the end. If you have two players that play SS and Player A has 20 errors and Player B has 10 errors, the result of Player A's errors will be to have earned less defensive win shares. Basically, you have to do positive things to earn win shares - so the more positive things a player does, the more win shares they will earn. If a player is doing negative things, they can't earn win shares and thus win shares will show them to be less valuable than the player who did more positive things.

I think that this has been touched on before, but you can do some interesting thoughts experiments...if somebody plays a full season and makes an error on every defensive chance, hits into a DP or TP every time somebody is on base for him, strikes out every time with nobody on, and kicks his team's superstars in the groin at every available opportunity, I would assume that he would just get zero win shares. Isn't this really a lot worse than sitting on the bench most of the year, maybe getting one AB and making an out? Shouldn't there be a negative value?
I'm already starting to form counterarguments against myself, but am wondering what some of you might say.

[DoubleX]

I think that this has been touched on before, but you can do some interesting thoughts experiments...if somebody plays a full season and makes an error on every defensive chance, hits into a DP or TP every time somebody is on base for him, strikes out every time with nobody on, and kicks his team's superstars in the groin at every available opportunity, I would assume that he would just get zero win shares. Isn't this really a lot worse than sitting on the bench most of the year, maybe getting one AB and making an out? Shouldn't there be a negative value?
I'm already starting to form counterarguments against myself, but am wondering what some of you might say.

You're right, but it takes off the wall hypotheticals like that to really illustrate the theoretical shortcomings of win shares. Sure, technically if a player like you said went out there everyday and hurt his team like you described, in terms of win shares, he would appear the same as someone who maybe registered just one AB. But in reality, that player would not be put out there. I suppose when teams start fielding players that kick their teammates in the crouch on a daily basis, then win shares might have to be rethought. :)

Also, I suppose in one way, you could argue that the player is earning negative win shares. By his gaffes and crouch kicking, he's hurting his team, which means the team win less and there will be less win shares to go around - and thus the player's efforts have subtracted from the total win shares the team could have earned, and as such he'll be in line for less win shares.

From my understanding (and I'm not a win shares expert), win shares awards a player's contributions towards winning. A player that makes more errors and gaffes will be contributing less towards winning, and thus the team will earn less win shares (because it will have less wins), and that will be reflected upon the player in how many win shares he contributed.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

OK ill be honest here.... Im a Jeter hater, not because the man can't play, he is a great player and is definately heading to the HOF in my mind, probably first ballot.

Having said that, what i hate is how many people who play for the yankees get overrated.... scratch that MOST of those who play for the Yanks are overrated. Jeter, Rivera, etc. Well anyone that is homegrown gets overrated. And to be honest it might be a new york period bias that makes me hate the new york sports teams. I mean I cant stand Eli Manning either( but that one is because he is an idiot and insulted san diego only to find out the Chargers have been far better than the giants). But Jeter while a great player is definately not the Micheal Jordan/Joe Montana/ or whatever you wanna call it, that one comercial that shows Jordan making that shot, or Montana's pass to Clark, or Jeter throwing out the guy at home. He is not in their league as far as greatness goes. That is what i cant stand, he is one of the best shortstops(mostly offensively) of our generation, but he is not the greatest.