How the Sport of Baseball has Remained Male Dominated for over 100 years

[NotAboutEgo]

How the Sport of Baseball has Remained Male Dominated for over 100 years

http://www.seaternal.com/baseball/gender.htm

The sport of baseball has remained male dominated for the last 100 years. This says something about gender relations in the United States, and the misconception of gender equality in society today. Throughout history, women have played the sport of baseball, but little is ever heard about female baseball players. Somewhere along history's path, baseball became gendered, and androcentric (male centered). In addition, the main remedy, Title IX, which requires federally funded programs to provide equal programs in female sport, actually hinders women's access to baseball and promotes continued gender polarization. The scope of this writing, in no way, pretends to examine the entire hegemonic system ingrained in American sport. It will not discuss the inequalities in sport based on race, sexual orientation, gender orientation, disability, or social class, although these inherently play a role as well. Rather, it will discuss how a patriarchal system has successfully maintained gender inequality in baseball and why this is problematic.

How did baseball become androcentric? To explore this issue, one must first understand the meaning of androcentrism, and how deeply baseball is ingrained in American culture. In her book "The Lenses of Gender: Transforming the Debate on Sexual Inequality" (1993), Sandra Bem explains androcentrism as "not just the historically crude perception that men are inherently superior to women but a more treacherous underpinning of that perception: a definition of males and male experience as a neutral standard or norm, and females and female experience as a sex-specific deviation from that norm. It is thus not that man is treated as superior and woman as inferior but that man is treated as human and woman as 'other' (Bem, p. 2). It is not a far stretch to apply this definition of androcentrism to baseball, and this writing will address this issue once a foundation for the argument is established. To view how deeply baseball is ingrained in American culture, one need only remember the well known saying "as American as baseball, hotdogs, and apple pie". Now, how does one get from androcentrism to baseball and American culture? One answer is to examine the history, and see if the definition complies.

Between 1866 to 1935, women actively participated in "amateur, semiprofessional, and professional baseball" (Berlage, 2000). Because women were involved in the sport of baseball, almost from its inception, one would imagine that baseball would be a coed sport played by both men and women equally today. That is not the case. Baseball, and its cultural meaning changed dramatically in the 1930s and 1940s because of two distinct incidents, World War II, and the formation of the American Softball Association. Before the 1930s, women were allowed to play baseball as long as they played the feminine version of the sport. Play was often limited to women in the upper class who attended women's colleges such as Vassar and Smith, or women from the working class. Any athletic activity for women was looked upon as suspect unless it contributed to the general health of a woman. "Women who didn't conform to cultural definitions of femininity or who appeared unattractive ran the risk of being labeled masculine, a freak, or homosexual" (Berlage, 2000). Regardless of cultural norms, from the 1800s until the 1930s, some women played competitive baseball. Working class women were often recruited to play on barnstorming teams for promoters seeking money and attention in a "battle of the sexes" (Smoot-Kimble, 2003), yet despite the motivation, many of these women played serious baseball. The team would enter a town and challenge the local men's club. To the surprise of many, they were often successful at beating the men's teams. Unfortunately, women's participation in baseball soon waned, with only a short lived resurgence during World War II, because:

"by the late 1930s, the novelty of having a woman player was no longer seen as a financial advantage.

Softball was firmly defined as the sport for women and hardball the sport for men. In 1933, the Amateur Softball Association (ASA) made the term softball official, and this name was substituted for the modified baseball games that [some] girls had been playing.

The image of softball nicely coincided with the image of women as the weaker sex.

Cultural conditioning meant that women accepted baseball as an exclusively male endeavor. Young women now aspired to be softball players. The women ballplayers of the 1920s, 1930s, and earlier were quickly forgotten so much so that when Philip K. Wrigley established the All-American Girls’ Baseball League in 1943 [an alternative league while men were away fighting in World War II], it was considered an unprecedented idea.

When Little League baseball was founded in 1939 as a program for boys only, there was no protest. It was accepted that baseball was a boys’ sport. From 1939 through 1973, girls were banned from playing Little League baseball" (Berlage, 2000).
In addition:

In 1952, when Eleanor Engle was signed to a minor league contract with AA Harrisburg Senators, George Trautman, the baseball commissioner, voided her minor league contract (The Sporting News, July 2, 1952)
On June 23, 1952, organized baseball officially banned women from the minor and major leagues (Berlage, 2000).

The history illustrates how baseball became officially gendered and androcentric. American culture had clearly defined baseball as a male domain and softball as the female equivalent, thus polarizing the two sports by sex. Of course, baseball is not the only sport to do this, and because of the equal rights movement of the 1960s and 1970s, women demanded equal federally funded programs in both education and athletics, if not equal opportunity to play on the same team.

Title IX, the Educational Amendment of 1972:

“No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance."

Title IX was extremely important in 1972 because it was the first time that discrimination in education and athletics was officially recognized and remedied in society since the civil rights amendment of 1964, which ended sanctioned racial segregation.

Before passage of Title IX, 300,000 girls participated
in high school sports. After Title IX, 2.37 million girls
participated in high school sports (ITVS.org).

This legislation opened the doors for women to receive access to education, employment, military, and sport. Unfortunately, any 'neutral' or 'separate but equal' legislation does not recognize the foundation of hegemonic inequality that pervades American culture. Some feminists argue that this kind of legislation starts the process of women's access to power, but they still do not recognize that the power itself, in fact the system itself, has been defined by men and for men (androcentrism). Softball (also defined by males in a male system of sport) as the female alternative to baseball illustrates this thinking because it gives a 'female', or softer alternative, to the 'male' sport of baseball rather than recognizing that the two sports are separate and unequal.

Has Title IX actually hindered the course of female equality in sport? One feminist writer states:

"So equal opportunities legislation has not made any difference to the actual practice of women’s sports, except for allowing the possibility for mixed-sexed activities for children younger than 12 years of age. But,moreover, the effect of equal opportunities legislation has been to give male sporting organizations the legal power to prevent elite female athletes from participating in their competitions", [and] "the most obvious outcome of the legislation is to protect elite women athletes out of competition in male sports, then it may be a more radical transformation of hegemonic sport to do without the legislation" (Burke).

And in the words of Leslie Heaphy, with whom I agree,

"While we can not blame softball for its very existence, we should note that the good is often the enemy of the best. It is good for women to play softball. But if playing softball perpetuates the prejudice that women cannot or should not play baseball, then softball is indeed the enemy of the best" (Heaphy).

One cannot end a discussion about females in baseball without a discussion of biology. The argument has always been that women are biologically smaller, and weaker than men; therefore, the argument goes, women must be protected from playing sports with men. The argument does not acknowledge that there is a great deal of variation within and between the sexes. In fact,

"The National Strength and Conditioning Association wrote a paper in 1990 that summarizes the scientific information available on women athletes and strength. The paper, called 'Strength Training for Female Athletes: A Position Paper,' reviews the physiological differences between men and women. It acknowledges that the differences between average men and women are substantial. It goes on to compare similarly sized men and women.
"When the difference in body dimensions and lean body mass between genders is taken into consideration, however, the relative strength differences between the sexes are less appreciable. In the lower body, using a strength to lean body weight ratio, Wilmore and others have found women to possess approximately equal lower body strength compared to males. Hosler and Morrow, in a 1982 study involving 87 men and 115 women, found that 'the impact of gender is rather small when one considers strength differences after allowing for body size and composition'. In this study, gender accounted for only 2 percent in leg strength and 1 percent in arm strength" (Women's Sports Foundation).

Burke proposes:

"women in male sports, or in mixed competition against male athletes, will provide ‘empirical evidence that many women can outperform many men … and also that they can possess physical attributes such as strength and speed in greater capacities than do many men’. In so doing, the binary constructions of gender are undermined and replaced by a continuum of performances" (Burke).

So the answer to the question of biology is "yes, there is a difference." But should that difference be judged on the "average", which applies to neither male or female elite athletes, or should the difference be judged on a continuum model? The continuum model removes the need to judge athletes and sport on the basis of sex.

This argument still does not address how to change androcentrism in a patriarchal world. Instead, it discusses some of the issues and assumptions about sex and gender inequality in our culture. We do know, however, that providing 'sexed' alternatives such as softball for girls and baseball for boys only perpetuates the hegemonic system. Breaking down the barriers to the system in baseball will require not only societal and institutional change, but female representation in the sport.

I believe the answer is to have more and more girls on mixed teams. We need to force the issue, and make girls on the team a cultural “norm”. If we continue to base our strategy on separate programs, we will continue to receive the short end of the stick (I remember in high school…the boys baseball team was fully funded by the school, while our softball team was privately funded (uniforms, field care) by my father’s cousin and other parents). Polarizing the genders always gives way to value statements about the level of play, and I have found that when male and female players are coached on the same team, their level of play is relatively equal.

People say that women could never compete against male ball players. I say that if they receive the same training, over the same period of time, there is no reason women cannot compete. I want to go to the World Series and watch highly skilled individuals from both sexes play. We should not have to go to the “men’s” World Series, and then the “women’s” World Series (which we know would be under funded, and under respected by the general population).

Title IX was effective in obtaining an arena where women could finally compete in sport, but it is not 1972 anymore. Let’s start training and encouraging our girls to play baseball on baseball teams. The more girls there are, the more normal it will be, and it will not be a question of “boys” or “girls” baseball. In addition, the future transition of baseball will be influenced by both males and females, which may finally put to rest the androcentric nature of baseball.

[bluezebra]

In case you haven't noticed, the average male is much stronger than the average female. That's not sexist, it's a physiological fact. Plus, separate facilities for women players would mean completely re-doing every baseball park in the country. If you think the money-hungry s.o.bs running the game would open their checkbooks for these renovations, think again.

Bob

[EvanAparra]

Did you even read the article? Or just read the title and decide to make your own conclusion?

[NotAboutEgo]

separate facilities for women players would mean completely re-doing every baseball park in the country.
When did anyone suggest that sports facilities should be and need to be redone for females? Females have no problem playing on regulation size baseball fields. Just because we don't hit 400 ft. homeruns doesn't mean we aren't capable of playing in the same places. Women can certainly hit homeruns, and in time we will show it more (when we have more playing experience).

And, as talked about before on this site, when did size and strength ever correlate directly with skill, talent, ability, work ethic, etc.?

Even if men are physiologically (on average) bigger and stronger than women, does that mean women shouldn't be allowed to play baseball (or any other sport) and should have to put up with so much crap when trying to do so?

Why should we be looked at as sub-human (as the article suggests), not normal, inferior to men, etc.?

"In case you haven't noticed, the average male is much stronger than the average female. That's not sexist, it's a physiological fact." That's not what this article is about. It's about men thinking women are sub-human, below normal, inferior... just because the average male is somewhat stronger than the average female.

[bluezebra]

Did you even read the article? Or just read the title and decide to make your own conclusion?

Yes, I read the article. And it has nothing to do with professional baseball. You make it sound like barring women from pro baseball is a fairly recent event. Can you cite references to women playing ORGANIZED pro ball in the 19th Century? I highly doubt it.

And Title IX has to do with colleges, and probably high schools, but not pro sports.

And I doubt if there are a half dozen women who are physically capable of competing on a par with men.

Bob

[NotAboutEgo]

And Title IX has to do with colleges, and probably high schools, but not pro sports.
I don't see where one would get the idea that this article is about pro baseball. It mentions it in context to the topic of the article.

From a web site:

"Women have been associated with baseball, either as players or spectators, since the game's dawn in the early nineteenth century. Even before baseball emerged in its final form, girls and young women sometimes played precursors of the game like One Old Cat, Town Ball, and Stoolball in Colonial America. As time passed, and the boys' amusement became serious business for young men, baseball's reputation as a masculine domain was established. In 1865, one year before Charles Peverelly observed that baseball "has now become beyond question the leading feature of the outdoor sports of the United States," Harper's Weekly proclaimed: "There is no nobler or manlier game than base-ball." During the latter half of the nineteenth century, women's presence as spectators at baseball games was tolerated and sometimes encouraged. Eventually promoters of the game hosted regular "Ladies Days" to attract women fans who would bring in added gate receipts and, hopefully, have a calming effect on the sometimes unruly crowds. Many women were content with their role as spectators and moral uplifters, but others yearned for the opportunity to try their hand at the national pastime. Those who lived out their fantasy often had to endure verbal and written derision from observers anxious to preserve the baseball status quo.

For the most part, the negative attitude toward women baseball players continues to this day. Many still share the opinion of an editorialist who noted in The St. Louis Globe-Democrat in 1885 that "The female has no place in base ball, except to the degradation of the game." The criticisms notwithstanding, uncounted women have pursued their own field of dreams, contributing their unique chapter to baseball's rich heritage."

Tell me that the previous two paragraphs don't have anything to do with the male ego. So, tell me why blacks were kept from playing MLB for a period of time and that black women were not allowed to play in the AAGPBL.

http://www.enel.net/beisbol/history/group/women/women.html

http://eduwrite.com/baseball.html

"There was no league. Bloomer Girls teams rarely played each other, but "barnstormed" across America, challenging local town, semi-pro, and minor league men's teams to an afternoon on the diamond. And Bloomer Girls frequently won, playing good, solid competitive hardball. The teams were integrated when it came to gender; although most of the players were women, each roster had at least one male player. Future St. Louis superstar Rogers Hornsby got his start on a Bloomer Girls team.

The Bloomer Girls era lasted from the 1890s until 1934. Hundreds of teams -- All Star Ranger Girls, Philadelphia Bobbies, New York Bloomer Girls, Baltimore Black Sox Colored Girls -- offered employment, travel, and adventure for young women who could hit, field, slide, or catch."

http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/girls_2.html

Seems that some on here need to do their homework and do some research rather than making rash statements.

"Between 1866 to 1935, women actively participated in "amateur, semiprofessional, and professional baseball" (Berlage, 2000)." This is from the article.

You make it sound like barring women from pro baseball is a fairly recent event.
Where did anyone state that this article is about barring women from pro ball?

[bluezebra]

You're complaining about women not given the opportunity to play baseball. To me, that means pro ball. Nothing is stopping women from playing amateur ball, except most don't want to. The Silver Bullets are a good example. They had to play men's teams, because there were no women's teams to compete against. Men get together and form teams and leagues, and get sponsors. What is stopping the women from doing the same?

As for fast pitch softball, few if any male baseball players could hit a pitcher of Finch's caliber. They never could. She's not the first to strike out MLB players. But how would she do against male fast pitch players? Or, for that matter, how many female baseball players could fare well against male pros?

Find a backer. Have tryouts. Start a league. Or is it easier to snipe and whine here?

Bob

[EdmondsFan#1]

It makes perfect sense to me to have baseball and softball. Look at the human design, men were obviously made by whom or whatever for the rough work. Women were obviously made by whom or whatever for the nutarer role. I'm not trying to be sexist, some woman are very large. But, if I was a woman i would have the same opinion as i do right now.

Even if woman were allowed to play in mens minors and pros alot more men would still make it then woman. Because it is a fact that in major league baseball you do need a certain of amount of strength, flexibilty, and speed. Women usually just do not have the strength factor, and steroids aren't allowed. And any women that did make MLB would probably be a she-man.

Also, people are attracted to men playing sports instead of women because men are rougher and more brutal, I'm not sure if you ever watched college softball but they are not rough at all when they play it. More people attend college baseball games then womens softball games, not because they are sexist, but because the two genders do not play the sport the same.

And I don't see many women that want to play baseball anyway, all the women i see much rather play softball becuase it isn't as masculine. In my city, girls that want to play baseball can, and we have only seen 1 girl in the league, because the others rather play softball. So even when the option is there, majority of women would not want to play. And out of the very tiny fraction of women that desired to play in the MLB compared to the Men who wanted to play in the MLB, maybe 1 or 2 women would make it to the MLB. Because the girls who want to play baseball, 99% of the time, aren't good enough to play major league baseball, and same goes for men. So since there is a lot more men that want to be an MLB player there is a much better chance of there being a star then woman.

*btw, that girl that we did see in our league, sucked badly. She pitched like, 40 mph and we beat her up, badly.*

[TigersFanB406]

You didn't make the cut in the Silver Bullets tryouts, so of course it was "politics". Talk about ego. You sound like a bitter person. Get help.
In all seriousness, I've never tried out for a baseball team but I would venture a guess that it is about politics.

[TigersFanB406]

baseball being male-dominated from the insecurities of the male ego... males not being able to accept the fact that women do, can, and want to play baseball...

There is no insecurity in the male ego. It is the men after all, that play professional baseball. If anything, it's the women that think they can compete with men in professional baseball that have the insecurity.

The fact is, women can't compete in professional baseball with men. This does not mean that women can't play baseball and it doesn't mean that they shouldn't want to. They should just play with women or stick to rec leagues if they want to play with men. And why do women have to play with the men anyways? Is it because of their insecurity?

[Baseball Mum]

People say that women could never compete against male ball players. I say that if they receive the same training, over the same period of time, there is no reason women cannot compete. ...

... Let’s start training and encouraging our girls to play baseball on baseball teams. The more girls there are, the more normal it will be, and it will not be a question of “boys” or “girls” baseball.


I think the point is not whether a particular woman can come through the ranks and suddenly surprise you all by being able to get a pro placing, but whether she has the opportunity, as part of the normal course of events, to honestly be looked at at each level as she rises through the ranks. Give her the same training, support and time as the male athletes until such times as she no longer makes the teams she's trying for (same as for the men). Until that time she should have the same opportunities, then you will know that the point at which she comes to a stop is the REAL apex of her possibilities, not some man made apex because she didn't have the same training.

That, I think, is what NotAboutEgo and the writer of the article were on about.

The comment about Australia was not to compare our level of competition with yours. That would be patently stupid. It was to compare our level of acceptance of girls and women playing the game with yours, and that is quite different.

It seems to me that there is a palpable difference in my discussions on this topic depending on which country I'm talking to. On this board and others, the Americans I talk to are far more likely to say "girls play softball, boys play baseball." That is both from people who know the game and those who don't (admittedly, the latter is a much smaller percentage for your country than mine.) Here in Australia, it is only people who don't know the game who say that. Anyone who knows the game of baseball says "either". Here it is "the norm". Not that we are awash with women who play, but every league has enough women in it that it is not considered unusual.

And I don't see many women that want to play baseball anyway, all the women i see much rather play softball becuase it isn't as masculine. In my city, girls that want to play baseball can, and we have only seen 1 girl in the league, because the others rather play softball. So even when the option is there, majority of women would not want to play.

So does that mean that each individual should make their decisions based on what most choose? That's not the way I've brought up either my children or my students. I would hope that we are giving our young people more intestinal fortitude than that.

By the way, the girls and women I know who play softball don't do it because it's less masculine. They would cringe at any such suggestion. They are tough women whose catchcry is "there's nothing soft about softball".


And out of the very tiny fraction of women that desired to play in the MLB compared to the Men who wanted to play in the MLB, maybe 1 or 2 women would make it to the MLB. Because the girls who want to play baseball, 99% of the time, aren't good enough to play major league baseball, and same goes for men. So since there is a lot more men that want to be an MLB player there is a much better chance of there being a star then woman.

Sure, the maths are such that there will never be very many women at the top level, but should you make the decision so early that you don't give them the chance? I don't think so.

*btw, that girl that we did see in our league, sucked badly. She pitched like, 40 mph and we beat her up, badly.*

Then that means one of two things. 1) Her coach was trying to give her a go in a particular game and use her lack of speed as a possible advantage over those who are not used to waiting so long. That will only ever work for a very short period of time and then he needs to take her off or 2) She should never have been put on the mound in the first place. Doesn't mean she shouldn't have been on the diamond.

[NotAboutEgo]

Right on, BaseballMum. I couldn't have said it better myself. The article is about attitudes (attitudes based on insecurity) and putting road blocks in front of certain people when they want to do something. It has nothing to do with debating about whether one group is better than the other at something.

I am going to presume, based on comments of some of the posters here, that they haven't ever seen a women's baseball game, have never known females who play baseball, or really don't communicate much with women athletes to really know the truths of what they prefer, what they are capable of, etc. As BBallMum stated, give everyone a fair chance and then whether they make it or not should depend on their true abilities and talents, not on whether they are female or male. This concept is no different than discriminating against someone on a job and not ever hiring them, just because they are male or female, from a certain culture, religion, age, etc. THAT is what the article is about.

A lot of the comments made here are nothing but jibberish, because they aren't based on actual facts; rather, they are based on someone's biased opinions based on their conditioned beliefs.

Making statements like there are only a few women who desire to play in MLB is extremely inaccurate. Don't make statements about something you don't know about. Would women like to have their "own" MLB? Of course we would. It takes a LOT of time, money, a lot of hard work and effort, and a bunch of other things to make it happen. It also takes a lot of energy to "fight" the opposition to get something like that going. In the meantime, why can't women "tryout" for the Minors and Majors... after receiving equivalent training and opportunities, as BBallMum suggests? Why is it that women were banned from the Minors and Majors after women like Jackie Mitchell struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig? It all goes back to the topic of the article. When there is a ban of some sort put in place not allowing women (or whatever group of people) to do something they should be able to do without having obstacles to overcome, it creates a lot of problems. And the bans have to do with attitudes that are based on insecurity.

That is what the article is about.

It makes perfect sense to me to have baseball and softball..

It does when people have the choice of which one, or both, they want to play... regardless of whether someone is female or male, dark skinned or light skinned, etc.

And I don't see many women that want to play baseball anyway, all the women i see much rather play softball becuase it isn't as masculine.

Really? Take a look at the poll at http://eteamz.active.com/detroitdanger/index.cfm?

Also, take a look at some of the links at http://eteamz.active.com/detroitdanger/links/ and do a search for women's baseball at Google or wherever.

Do you really know the real reasons why more women prefer to play baseball over softball? It has to do with the sports themselves and how they are played and what they entail, not with whether one is seen as more or less masculine than the other.

Also, do some research on why the general attitude in this country about women playing baseball is the way it is. You will find it DOES have to do with the male ego.

Did you know... softball was invented by men, in the 1900's, and then it was later deemed that women should play softball instead of baseball... when, women had been playing organized baseball since at least 1866 (men started playing organized baseball around 1855... not too long before women started playing it... according to documents that have been found from that time) and had ALREADY played professional baseball by the time softball was invented by some guys goofing around in a gym? So, add up all the years women have been playing baseball and then add up all the years women have been playing softball, and you will find that women have been playing baseball FAR longer than they've been playing softball.

[Brian McKenna]

there is a ban of some sort put in place not allowing women (or whatever group of people) to do something they should be able to do without having obstacles to overcome, it creates a lot of problems.

There really is no reason that top women baseball players shouldn't be allowed to walk on at tryout camps and be graded just like every other ballplayer, yeah or nay.

I personally don't see why top female athletes can't compete on sports fields with men/boys at whatever level if they are are good enough to secure a roster spot on merit just like any other ballplayer. There really is no excuse for codifying this form of segregation at various levels: children's leagues, pony leagues, high school, college or pro.

The problem competition-wise is cracking the nut. In order to advance one's talent it is necessary to compete with and against the top athletes in your field. In order for female baseball players to be as good or better than male players they need time to develop while playing with males. Crack that nut and many "women are inferior" comments may become absolete.

Another major problem is female interest in sports. Yes, I know that there are top female athletes of all ages in a variety of sports. But, as a % of the population female interest in sports falls significantly behind male interest and this is especially true in baseball. Many mothers and fathers do not push their girls into sports and this among other reasons depresses the potential base of finding that truely gifted baseball player.

[NotAboutEgo]

There really is no reason that top women baseball players shouldn't be allowed to walk on at tryout camps and be graded just like every other ballplayer, yeah or nay.
You are exactly right. This goes along with what BBallMum said about giving everyone a fair chance... including the training, facilities, opportunities, etc.... and then picking players based on their talents, abilities, performance, the needs of the team, etc.

As far as parents not "pushing" their daughters into sports as much as they get their sons into them, it has also been shaped by the "women are inferior" and "sports are for males" and "women are delicate and sports are too masculine and brutal for women" mentalities. History shows us that women have been and continue to be as interested in sports as men are... i.e. participating in the Olympics since ancient times, participating in sports and physical activity since the beginning of humans... whenever that was.

In the U.S. (as well as in other places), women have had to continually fight to have their place in sports and baseball. This situation is due to the ideology that was created by men in our culture over time that women are weaker than men and are inferior to them in many ways, and therefore can't participate in certain things, especially if it "threatens" the manhood of males. Then, society "accepted" it as a truth; the men who created that belief wanted to get "everyone" to believe that this is true. This is social conditioning at its best.

This is the reason many men have problems with women competing with them in baseball, sports, and other things in life, and this influences whether a female chooses to participate in sports and whether she is a fan of sports. Perhaps she feels she should not participate in sports because of what her society thinks and how she has been conditioned, throughout her life, to believe that sports are not for females... even though, deep down she knows she loves sports and would love to be a baseball player and an athlete.

[Sonny Schmidt]

I have my own answer to: " Women vs Men"


Watch the the players from the Women's World Cup, then switch over, and watch a College Game. Tell me that you'll sign any one of those women over what College ball has to offer? :rolleyes:


If you want to talk about power, give me one women who can execute a swing as powerfully as this.


http://www.backbackback.com/web%20images/BAbreu_HRDerby1_FView.gif




Ego, women are just not the same caliber as men! Andy Roddick would have a field-day with Sharapova in a tennis match - that is a fact of life.

[NotAboutEgo]

I have my own answer to: " Women vs Men"
You've missed the point of the article completely. It's not about women vs. men or men vs. women. It's about being told you can't and aren't allowed to do something just because the opposition has way too much insecurity to be able to handle it and therefore, they control it. We aren't discussing whether men or women have more power. We aren't saying that women should be playing on men's collegiate teams (although many are now and the numbers are growing, whether you and others can handle it or not).

We are saying everyone should have an equal chance, equal opportunities, equal training, etc. Everyone should have an equal chance to tryout for a team. Then, based on their talent, abilities, skills, performance, etc., the decisions can be made. THAT is what the article is about.

No one can ever say that a woman will never be as good or better than a man at baseball or other things. Those are things that are unknown, and if women had the same opportunities as men, perhaps they could out do them a lot more.

I know there are more Babe Didriksons out there. They just don't get equal opportunities.

Again, the article is NOT about putting women up against men. It's not even about women "replacing" men (that's how some people see it). It's about everyone having equal opportunities to play baseball and do what they like to do.... PERIOD.

Open your mind and maybe you will see this point.



One of the boys
All Molly McKesson has wanted in her baseball life was to be treated and judged by her merits on the ballfield, just like her male counterparts. So how has it turned out? Dad would be proud.
By JOHN C. COTEY, Times Staff Writer
Published May 15, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Special to the Times: Nikki Boertman]
Since she was a little girl, Molly McKesson has wanted to be a baseball pitcher. This spring, the Gibbs High graduate made six appearances for Christian Brothers University.


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MEMPHIS - The little girl, forced to attend her brother's Little League game, looks for something to do. She finds a baseball. She picks it up and throws it to a friend.

She throws it again, and again, and again. Just like the boys, she throws overhand. She has learned a little watching her brother. She is good, and she falls in love.

She keeps throwing that ball, to her father alongside their house, to her brother in the street, to teammates who aren't sure what to make of her.

She throws the ball like the baseball players on television, even as those who watch tell her to throw it like the other girls. Underhand. But this is how she wants to throw, like the boys, against the boys, against all odds.

At age 8, she writes a story about playing in a World Series.

This is her vision: on a big field somewhere, at a college far away, she will be a pitcher.

* * *
Molly McKesson, 18, left St. Petersburg for the quaint and neatly landscaped campus of Christian Brothers University in August, her bags packed with extra clothes and books like everyone else, distinguished only by one of her most prized possession.

Her baseball glove.

She didn't go to Memphis to make history, but to make a team.

To do so, she had to prove coach Phil Goodwin was warranted in making her the first woman to earn a partial baseball scholarship. She had to convince her teammates she was more than a publicity stunt; that her arm was strong enough to retire the bigger, stronger men she would face; that she would not turn her team into a laughingstock; that her roster spot couldn't be better used; that she was more than a ponytail bobbing out from behind her slender 5-foot-8 frame.

It wouldn't be easy. Goodwin had convinced athletic director Joseph Nadicksbernd, a former baseball coach at the school, he was bringing in McKesson because she could pitch, not for publicity. But then he started hearing about parents calling and complaining. Some of his players were antsy.

A girl? On a men's college baseball team? Are you kidding? Despite the resistance, it was too late. Goodwin had bought into McKesson a long time ago, while watching her two years earlier at a baseball expo in Cocoa Beach.

"I trusted her dream," he said. "That was her dream, and maybe sometimes you attach yourself to things you can't reverse. I trusted her. I trusted her abilities, and I wanted to help her accomplish her dreams. Now the job is hers to prove that I was right."


* * *

Bob McKesson could have taken the easy route. He could have replaced the baseball with a softball, taught an underhand delivery, steered his daughter in the direction everyone told him he should.

Instead, he nurtured her hopes and encouraged her to play the sport she wanted to play. He coached her in boys leagues at Fossil Park and Northeast, her brother, Kevin, a teammate many times along the way. In her early teens, she starred on a women's national team. She became the first girl in Pinellas County to play baseball, starting for Gibbs High.

McKesson made sure his daughter was not deterred. He played catch in the back yard with aching limbs, the result of delivering the mail all day. He drove his daughter around the country for tournaments. When her women's baseball team needed a site for a weeklong tournament, he negotiated with the Devil Rays for the use of Florida Power Park and Tropicana Field.

He hadn't played baseball, but McKesson bought books, studied and tried to teach. When he couldn't teach, he spent as much as he needed to find someone who could. His daughter always had the best pitching coaches and the most talented instructors.

And at the end of the day, she always had him.

"He never once ever said he was too tired to play catch with me and always supported me," McKesson said. "He never suggested I play softball. My dad was wonderful." Over a cheese calzone cut into neat, little pieces at the Memphis Pizza Cafe, McKesson pauses. The wound is still too raw, and the tears flow freely.

"I'm sorry," she said.

Neither rain nor sleet nor dark of night stopped McKesson from helping his girl to her dream. But when it was finally realized, brain cancer had punctured the joy. McKesson died in July, two months after being diagnosed and a month before his daughter was set to leave for college.

She knows he would have liked driving to Memphis to see her pitch.

"He was so proud," his wife, Sheryl, said. "Other parents would come up to us and say she should switch to softball so she could at least get a scholarship. And he'd say, "You know, maybe she'll get one for baseball."'

McKesson should have been there for her debut. He would have cheered as she pitched a 1-2-3 inning against Lindenwood of St. Charles, Mo. Ray Dankle was there. Wouldn't have missed it for anything. He was Bob McKesson's best man and best friend. In his stead, no one was prouder. With tears in his eyes, he walked up to Goodwin afterward, shook his hand and said, "Thank you."


* * *

When McKesson showed up for CBU's first meeting of the season, she quietly took her seat in the bleachers near the home dugout. Some players wondered why a woman was there. "We had heard toward the end of last year that she might be coming, but we really didn't know until we had the first meeting," catcher Brian DeJean said. "I think everyone was looking to see if it was true, see if she was there."

DeJean admittedly wasn't supportive initially. Neither was pitcher Charlie Soukup, a sophomore from prep baseball hotbed St. Paul, Minn.

Soukup believed her presence made the Bucs a "laughingstock." He said it was frustrating to watch other teams pull out cameras when she took the mound. He believed the presence of a woman changed the way the male players interacted.

"There's a lot of people that take baseball seriously, and we're all trying to get better and had to deal with what some felt was a publicity stunt," he said.

"I was initially upset. I'm really trying. I have dreams of playing after college. This is a big step for me, and I was real excited about it. Then this happens. It's kind of a mockery of the game and everyone's ability."

DeJean came around before the season started. Soukup said he was still trying, and McKesson said while she could tell he was uncomfortable, he was always nice to her.


* * *

Wes Hoover, a co-captain along with DeJean, was on board from the start. A senior outfielder, he was the first to tell McKesson if she had any problems, to come see him.

"I didn't mind, not one bit," Hoover said. "I think it was probably about 50-50 in terms of who supported it and who didn't. A lot of them thought it was a (public relations) thing. They were like, "Yeah, it'll never happen. She'll get here and we'll root her out,' that type of thing. But that never happened."

Hoover said many players had to admit McKesson was better than they believed. First-year pitching coach Tom Densford said she was more polished than a lot of the pitchers he has tutored.

She touches only 70 mph with her fastball, but her delivery is sound and breaking stuff some of the team's best. "Anybody that ever sees her throw will say she has good mechanics," Densford said. "She works at what she does, which is impressive. She was a lot better than what I thought. Location-wise, she surprised me. She can go inside. She can go outside, spots the ball real well and has a nice split-finger and changeup.

"Everyone is going to have questions, but she answered those questions very quickly."

Fitting in socially was harder. Painfully shy, McKesson stood off on her own during most practices, shagging fly balls away from the cliques. When she could, she interacted from a distance, laughing as her teammates chased a freshman for a head-shaving ritual.

When it was suggested she let them shave her head, she instead offered to let them dye it.

It didn't take long for McKesson to win over teammates with an impeccable work ethic and good results. In the fall, she struck out some of her teammates in intrasquad games, pitched well in an event at the home of Memphis' Triple-A team and never embarrassed herself. "You find yourself rooting for her," Hoover said. "I root for her because she's one of the few that will even try it. She is ... man enough, I guess, to even attempt it, and I respect her for that."


* * *

On April19, coming off being swept by Delta State, ranked No.2 by Collegiate Baseball, by a combined 49-5, CBU was tied with Bethel after six innings.

To pitch the seventh, desperate for a win, Goodwin called on McKesson.

Until then, she had pitched four innings of mopup duty, never as good as she was that first game with her 1-2-3 inning. Against the Tennessee college, however, she answered any lingering questions about her place on the team.

She walked two batters in the seventh but allowed no runs. In the bottom of the inning, the Bucs scored three runs. McKesson qualified for the win at that point, but Goodwin wanted to see more. Though he had maintained she would be a one-inning pitcher, he left her in the game. A leadoff double, error and wild pitch put runners on second and third. McKesson struck out the No.2 hitter and walked the next to load the bases.

Facing the cleanup hitter, McKesson got a ground ball for a double play. John Daush pitched a scoreless ninth for her victory.

"Highlight of the year," McKesson said proudly.

Her teammates shook her hand, patted her on the back and congratulated her. Later, they presented her with the game ball.

Two weeks later, McKesson's first season was over. She went 1-1 with three earned runs allowed in six innings for a 4.50 ERA.

In an end-of-the-season meeting, Goodwin told her he was proud of her and she was welcome back next year.

She left for the summer, his final words playing over and over in her head:

"You proved them wrong."

On the wall in his office, Goodwin long ago posted a message he picked up from a preacher on one of those busy Sundays when he had no choice but to get his religion from the television.

It says: "Did you grow up to be what you were supposed to be?"

Thanks to a few true believers, McKesson can say yes. "I'm not trying to be the first girl or first anything. I'm just playing baseball," McKesson said. "I think I won my team over with my work ethic. Coach told me a couple of them at first were skeptical because they never saw a girl play baseball.

"By the end of the season, I hope I proved I wasn't just there for a joke or for the publicity."


* * *

It's her second appearance of the season, and McKesson is trying to keep her team in a game that is slowly slipping away. She gets a strike then two balls and another strike. The batter digs in to protect the plate.

Fifty yards away, behind a set of empty aluminum bleachers, a girl plays catch with a boy. For her, it's just a game to pass this bitterly cold Memphis afternoon and a way to keep warm while her parents watch a baseball game. For her, these days of playing catch will end. For her, what is happening on the big field means nothing.

For McKesson, it means everything.

Her chess match with the batter ends with a walk. A new batter steps in, and the pieces are reset. Cameras are clicking. All eyes are on her, and she must decide: changeup or split-finger fastball against the hulking batter hoping to knock it over the fence?

No one watches the girl, who takes a running start and with all her might, lets the ball fly overhanded to the boy 30 feet away.

Women pioneers in baseball
LIZZIE MURPHY: On Aug. 14, 1922, she played first base for an American League All-Star team in an exhibition game against the Red Sox at Fenway Park. It was the first time a woman played for a major-league team. Known as the "Queen of Baseball," she played on amateur teams throughout Rhode Island before earning a spot on the semipro Providence Independents, a New England barnstorming team.

MARGARET GISOLO: She played American Legion Junior Baseball in 1928. But the next year, the American Legion banned women from playing, and girls were increasingly discouraged from playing organized baseball.

JACKIE MITCHELL: As a 17-year-old, she created a stir when she struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig during an exhibition game between the Chattanooga Lookouts and the Yankees on April 2, 1931. She gained media attention for her performance, but major-league commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis was not amused. He had Mitchell's contract with Chattanooga voided and banned women from pro baseball.

ALL-AMERICAN GIRLS BASEBALL LEAGUE: Chicago Cubs owner Phillip Wrigley started this league in 1943 during the World War II because he was worried about baseball being canceled. He suggested a women's league that started out with softball rules and gradually developed into baseball by 1948. Four teams - Kenosha Comets, Racine Belles, Rockford Peaches and South Bend Blue Sox - played the first season. The league grew to 10 teams by 1948 before folding after the 1954 season. It was the basis for the movie A League of Their Own.

KATHRYN "TUBBY" JOHNSTON: In the summer of 1950, the 12-year-old became the first girl to play for a Little League team. She cut her hair short, took on the name Tubby (after a character in the Little Lulu comic strip) and made the King's Dairy team in Corning, N.Y. She let her coach in on the secret two weeks into the season, and he left her on the team. The next year, Williamsport banned girls from playing Little League baseball.

MARIA PEPE: Twenty-two years after Johnston, Pepe was playing for the Young Democrats in the Hoboken, N.J., Little League. Opponents protested to Williamsport, and Pepe quit the team to save its charter. The local chapter of the National Organization for Women represented Pepe in a lawsuit against Little League. In 1974, the New Jersey Superior Court ruled Little League must allow girls to play. But by then, Pepe was too old.

JULIE CROTEAU: In 1989, she became the first woman to play NCAA baseball when she made the Division II team at St. Mary's College in Maryland. she had sued for the right to play in high school, but lost. In 1995, she became the first female assistant coach for a Division I baseball program when she was hired by UMass. ILA BORDERS: The left-hander was the first woman to pitch in a men's college game when she took the mound for Southern California College in 1994. Encountering resistance at SCC, she was forced to transfer to Whittier College for her senior year and went 4-5. In 1998, she became the first woman to start a minor-league game when she pitched for the Duluth-Superior Dukes against Sioux City in the Northern League. She later pitched in the Western League and retired in 2000.

Compiled by Times staff writer John C. Cotey with information from the Associated Press, the Hartford Courant, baseballglory.com, and Baseball & Philosophy: Thinking Outside the Batter's Box.

[EvanAparra]

You've missed the point of the article completely. It's not about women vs. men or men vs. women.
Yep. I agree with what most are saying in this thread, but they just decided to come in and say men are better than women without actually caring what the point of the article was.

[Baseball Mum]

On the wall in his office, Goodwin long ago posted a message he picked up from a preacher on one of those busy Sundays when he had no choice but to get his religion from the television.

It says: "Did you grow up to be what you were supposed to be?"
Thank you NotAboutEgo. My own 'little girl' graduates from high school tomorrow and is currently speaking to the people who organise university sporting scholarships. I know that they are open to baseball scholarships for women because they have some on their books now. Whether she gets it or not, whether she makes it into that uni, with or without the scholarship. she will continue to play with and against the men, and I encourage her every step of the way.

I'm feeling the same as every parent at this time in their child's life. It is a time of reflection, of celebration, of looking at possibilities, of reflecting on all that has gone in the past that has helped to make this person the person they are today, ready to 'be the person they are supposed to be'. I'm also a singer and your quote is very similar to the one in Sister Act II where Whoopi Goldberg says something like: "if you wake up in the morning, and the first thing you think about is singing, and throughout the day, what you think about is singing, and the last thing you think about before you go to sleep at night is singing, then you supposed to be a singer, girl"

There are girls out there who live, breathe, and dream baseball. In a simialr vein I'd say to them "you're supposed to be a baseballer, girl."

[NotAboutEgo]

You're welcome, BBAllMum. I think it's great that your daughter has the courage to speak to those who handle sports scholarships and also that you encourage her to play baseball with and against men, since that's what she wants to do. Too many people discourage their children from following their dreams and pursuing that which they know they are meant to do... thus, discouraging them from being "the person they are supposed to be."

I agree with your quote from Sister Act II; it's so true.

There are girls out there who live, breathe, and dream baseball. In a simialr vein I'd say to them "you're supposed to be a baseballer, girl." I can say that I'm one of those girls!

Good luck to your daughter in pursuing a baseball scholarship and with playing. Please let us know how she does!

[DirtBall]

The fact of the whole thing is this. Females do not have the same build as men. They are not as athletic. They are not as strong (generally). That's a fact. Women playing in baseball games with men is absurd. ABSURD! Throw it out the window. It's over the leftfield fence. It doesn't make sense. Women have to accept that. I am not sexist. I'm just saying, it's a fact a lot of women cannot accept.

[Brian McKenna]

They are not as athletic.


How so?........

[Baseball Mum]

The fact of the whole thing is this. Females do not have the same build as men. They are not as athletic. They are not as strong (generally). That's a fact.

You're right, they don't have the same build - most of the time. (Although there are a variety of builds among people who are successful at this game.) But to lump that together with your next statement as if the one proves the other is ridiculous. The two are not related.

Women playing in games with men is only absurd if your mind is closed to the possiblity. I played my first season of baseball this past winter. Now I was certainly by far the weakest member of my team, but to presume that that would necessarily be the case because I was a woman is to look at only one part of the equation.

FAR more relevant as to the reason for my weakness is the fact that I am 46 years old and have never played before. I just didn't have the skills - because I'd never learnt. Not only have I never played baseball, but I've never played cricket or any other ball game of any sort. This I'm sure had far more to do with my paucity of skills than my gender. And sure, my lack of athletic build played its part too, but again, my middle age, and carrying some weight might have had something to do with that, and would have had the same effect had I been male. Again, not my gender, but other factors. The much younger men I was playing with had it all over me in ball skills, hand eye coordination, and knowledge of where to place myself in the field, but not one of them thought I shouldn't be there.

My daughter on the other hand, who has been learning baseball skills since she was 6yo, and has a flair for all things athletic, is a very different story. Again, though, it is not her gender that necessarily creates the successes or the failures. It is her skills and her attitude. Although, thinking about it, in her current competition, where she is the only girl in the comp, maybe her gender is playing a part - but it's allowing her to be MORE successful than the boys in some situations. She's recently been playing 1st base. She has made saves at 1st that have had everyone on the sideline scratching their head about, because her flexibility has allowed her reach for a ball, and then drop again to reach a ball that anyone else in the comp would have missed. To hear the opposition saying "how did he get that? Oh hang on, that's the girl!" does a Mum's heart proud.

ABSURD! Throw it out the window. It's over the leftfield fence. It doesn't make sense. Women have to accept that. I am not sexist. I'm just saying, it's a fact a lot of women cannot accept.

Sorry to tell you DirtBall, but you're giving a really good impression of being sexist. 'I'm just saying, and you women, well, you've just got to accept it'?? :noidea Sorry, that's sexist.

[EvanAparra]

Dont waste your time with something/someone like that, BB Mum, its just not even worth it..

[Baseball Mum]

Dont waste your time with something/someone like that, BB Mum, its just not even worth it..

I presume you're talking about DirtBall. You're right of course. I'm not going to change his mind one little bit. I just can't bring myself to let him think that the rest of the world agrees with him.

[EvanAparra]

I presume you're talking about DirtBall. You're right of course. I'm not going to change his mind one little bit. I just can't bring myslef to let him think that the rest of the world agrees with him.

I hear ya... And as I type this a commercial for the Austin Outlaws comes on the tv, which is the local girls tackle football team. :)

[wigglestrue]

I think a woman could make it in the majors as a knuckleballer.
She'd still have to be extraordinarily strong for a female athlete.

Maybe someday we could see a slap-hitting female 2B.

But that's not the point of this thread.

[DirtBall]

How so?........

Not as strong, not as fast, not as much stamina, etc.

[NotAboutEgo]

Not as strong, not as fast, not as much stamina, etc.

Hmmmmm... funny.... I play baseball, hockey, and soccer with both men and women, and as I've stated before on this forum, I can hang with the guys in every sport. As a matter of fact, I just played roller hockey with 3 other guys last night and I had no trouble beating them. While pitching during baseball games, I've had more success getting guys out at the plate than getting the women baseballers out. We are at the same level... amatuer athletes and baseball players. The men play in local men's baseball leagues, the women in women's leagues in their areas, and many play on mixed teams. I've even pitched against guys who currently play baseball in college and who have played in college in the past, and I have no problem striking them out and getting them to ground out.

Now, I know I'm not the only female out there who can do this, and I'm certainly far from being the best one. There have been 3 female pitchers on my women's team who all throw in the 70's (natural ability and talent), and only one of them has taken lessons. Just think of what they could do with the proper training and gaining more experience in pitching. One of these women flat out out threw a male at a coed baseball workout. The male is a very talented player, and he and the woman on my team are very similar in size and build... tall and very slim... about the same height and body style. Even though they are very similar in size/build/body style, one would presume that the male would have more core strength... a fact of nature. They were literally standing side-by-side throwing, and she out threw him each time. So, DirtBall (how'd you come up with that name?), how would you explain that? She certainly is not the exception.

Is this a matter of strength, size, speed, and gender? Or, is it more a matter of skill, talent, ability, knowledge of the game, who's better, etc.?

DirtBall, perhaps you should attend some women's baseball games and coed baseball games to base your opinions on rather than making sexist remarks. Or, better yet, maybe you should play against some women and see how you fare!

[DirtBall]

Hmmmmm... funny.... I play baseball, hockey, and soccer with both men and women, and as I've stated before on this forum, I can hang with the guys in every sport.
You say you can throw in the 70s. That's nice, but a elite male baseball pitcher can throw faster than an elite female pitcher. What I am saying is this, you say can beat men. What kind of men? Fatsos? A bunch of whacks? I presume they don't have elite talent. Since you claim you're as good as the men go play against A-Rod or Howard. You couldn't cause there elite. Elite women aren't on the same level as elite men. That is the exact reason women are not in the majors.

[NotAboutEgo]

You say you can throw in the 70s.
I didn't say I can throw in the 70's. I said some women who have been on my team can, and I have played against other women who can. Read more carefully.

Does every MLB pitcher throw 90's? Are any who don't who aren't successful successful pitchers?

The women I am talking about are not elite, pro players, because they don't exist (women players at the MLB level, since women are banned from playing in the Minors and Majors); rather, they are amateur players who are in college and who have jobs other than playing baseball. You are speaking of male MLB level players (from what I gather) and comparing them to amateur female players. Not the same thing.

What kind of men? Fatsos? A bunch of whacks?
I'm sure the guys I play with and against would be happy with you calling them fatsos and whacks... what a positive person you are. Like I said, some of them play collegiate baseball and have played collegiate baseball in the past, and some of them are terrific amateur players. You don't have to be in the pro's to be a terrific player.

Since you claim you're as good as the men go play against A-Rod or Howard. You couldn't cause there elite. Elite women aren't on the same level as elite men. That is the exact reason women are not in the majors.
Like I said in the first paragraph, elite women players at the same level as the MLB players don't exist... simply because women are NOT ALLOWED to play in the Minors (except for in the independent leagues that are not part of the good ole' boys network) or in MLB, so why would a woman spend time and money training like the pro's do if she's not going to be allowed to play at the same level? Furthermore, where would she find the time, the money, and the luxuries? MLB players don't have to have jobs to support themselves and their families, other than playing baseball, so it's not the same thing. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Also, I said I can hang with the men I play with and against. I'm not comparing myself to A-Rod or to any other MLB player.

Women are not in the Majors OR Minors because a ban was placed on them, barring them from playing at BOTH levels after women were signed to contracts and proved that they could hang with the men in the same leagues. That happened decades ago. The bans are based on men's egos and insecurities... NOT on women not being able to compete at the same levels.

Ever heard of Jackie Mitchell?

Do some research so you know what you are talking about.

[pitcher23]

You say you can throw in the 70s. That's nice, but a elite male baseball pitcher can throw faster than an elite female pitcher. What I am saying is this, you say can beat men. What kind of men? Fatsos? A bunch of whacks? I presume they don't have elite talent. Since you claim you're as good as the men go play against A-Rod or Howard. You couldn't cause there elite. Elite women aren't on the same level as elite men. That is the exact reason women are not in the majors.

Let me ask you this, Dirtball, could you keep up with A-Rod or Howard?? I don't think so, nor should you be expected to. Why is it, regardless of the thread topic, it comes down to whether women should/can compete with men? And why does the support for those who think they shouldn't/can't use the professional men as an example? I'll bet 90% of the men out there can't compete with professional players. As an example, I play MSBL in the Detroit area and it's a fairly competitive league (women are allowed to play, by the way). A couple of years ago, we were fortunate enough to have a former major leaguer play on our team for a doubleheader. He played in 1973 for about 2 months in the majors, so when he played for us, he was in his mid - late 50's. He didn't play regularly and he pitched the maximum 8 innings for us, allowed 1 hit and hit 3 home runs. This was against guys 20 years younger. We realized that the talent this guy had, we would never be able to achieve. To use professional players as an example is ludicrous. I have no doubt there may be women who can compete at that level now and certainly will be able to if given the same opportunities from childhood that males have - to be able to play the game and hone their skills instead of having to fight just to get on a team.

Why is it seemingly always presumed that women want to play on mens teams/leagues? I think many women would be happy to play in women's leagues against their peers. The better skilled women should absolutely be allowed to legitimately try out for any league if the league allows. I've read comments about why not start leagues/teams for women. There are many teams/leagues being created for women to play but the creation of any league/team needs support. Look at the USFL, a 'male' sport that folded because of lack of support. If people would support a cause or project they believe in instead of tearing down other people's dreams, the world would be a better place.

I've been involved in women's baseball for about 4 years and will continue to applaud and support those that want to play. I challenge the nay sayers out there (Dirtball, from your comments, I believe you are one of them) to get out and support whoever is trying to start and fulfill a dream instead of ripping it apart.

Perhaps this isn't the right thread for this response, but some of the comments are totally ridiculous.

[Brian McKenna]

Not as strong, not as fast, not as much stamina, etc.

As a general statement, you might get away with the first "not as" but after that it falls a part.

Welcome to Baseball Fever but your focus here in the Women's forum may not be your smoothest introduction into Baseball Fever. We all love to discuss baseball here but perhaps you should garner goodwill and contribute throughout Baseball Fever before focusing on the negative in such a sensitive topic, especially, with the thoughful name you choose to introduce yourself with.

[NotAboutEgo]

Bingo!!! Ditto... Pitcher23!!! I think this is the appropriate thread for your statements.

And like Pitcher23 asked, why are amateur women players always compared to pro male baseball players, but male amateur and collegiate players are never compared to the same pro male players (especially in regards to the argument that women are weaker, slower, and don't have as much stamina as men do, and therefore, are inferior to men/male elite players)??? How many of you amateur male players out there could compete with the likes of A-Rod, Jeter, Howard, I-Rod, whoever else??? How many collegiate players or Minor Leaguers could compete with them???

Take the case of the former MLB player who played on Pitcher23's team. He's a guy who most probably have never heard of... barely played in the Majors... hit 3 homeruns in the MSBL game even though he was a pitcher... yet, he was WAY better than the amateurs in the Detroit MSBL... a competitive amateur league.

Is that a matter of skill, talent, ability, and experience? It certainly has nothing to do with gender!!!

[DirtBall]

Even if women were given the same opporitunities as men very few if any would ever reach the majors. NotAboutEgo, I understand where you are coming from in saying that women were banned because of egos. Its tru, but I highly doubt that very many women will ever be able to compete at the MLB level. I will argue no further. I have made my point clear. I am not forcing you to believe it, just saying my opinion:)

BTW, DirtBall stands for Chase Utley, my favorite baseball player. Chase Utley is known as one of the most dirty-pants player in MLB

[pitcher23]

It is likely that very few women could reach the majors right now, but there is no way of knowing what could happen in the future if girls/women were truly given the same opportunities as males. It will take at least a generation before that could happen since girls now would need to be treated fairly and allowed to play and train and learn as males do now.

Again, why the comparison to the majors? I reiterate that very few males are able to compete at the major league level, but there are a lot of male amateur baseball leagues that have a lot of good players. Women would have those same opportunities and there would be as many talented female players if they were given the chances as young girls that these talented males got when they were young. Let's work to get females the chance to learn and play first, then we can worry about them breaking in the major leagues.