NL Gold Glove Winners

[Deebo]

C: Brad Ausmus, HOU
1B: Albert Pujols, STL
2B: Orlando Hudson, ARI
3B: Scott Rolen, STL
SS: Omar Vizquel, SF
OF: Carlos Beltran, NYM
OF: Mike Cameron, SD
OF: Andruw Jones, ATL
P: Greg Maddux, LAD

No real shockers here

[SamtheBravesFan]

P: Greg Maddux (16) <- ties him with Jim Kaat and Brooks Robinson for most.
C: Brad Ausmus (3)
1B: Albert Pujols (1)
2B: Orlando Hudson (2)
3B: Scott Rolen (7)
SS: Omar Vizquel (11)
OF: Andruw Jones (9)
OF: Carlos Beltran (1)
OF: Mike Cameron (3)

Let the debate rage on! :D

[SamtheBravesFan]

Wow, I posted my thread a minute after you did. ;)

[Old Sweater]

There shouldn't be a debate about the NL's SS.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I would guess the ones people would raise a stink about are Brad Ausmus, Andruw Jones, and Albert Pujols, maybe Mike Cameron.

[Old Sweater]

I would guess the ones people would raise a stink about are Brad Ausmus, Andruw Jones, and Albert Pujols, maybe Mike Cameron.

Wish the Rockies would have kept Ausmus all theses years.

[538280]

There shouldn't be a debate about the NL's SS.

Actually Vizquel is a guy who has come in as very overrated statistically. When you look at his range taking into consideration staff tendencies it is not truly that great.

[banda_bou]

I would guess the ones people would raise a stink about are Brad Ausmus, Andruw Jones, and Albert Pujols, maybe Mike Cameron.

Why would there be discussion about Andruw?

[Zito75]

I've never really thought of Pujols as a defensive player- therefore, I do think there are other worthy candidates at 1B. (Berkman, Helton, Johnson, etc)

[SamtheBravesFan]

Why would there be discussion about Andruw?

Well, I read in threads here that Alfonso Soriano should have gotten a GG and with Jason Bay and Carlos Beltran the usual suspects, that bumped Andruw off.

[cardsfanatic]

I've never really thought of Pujols as a defensive player- therefore, I do think there are other worthy candidates at 1B. (Berkman, Helton, Johnson, etc)

You obviously haven't watched him play defense the past two seasons.

[Old Sweater]

Actually Vizquel is a guy who has come in as very overrated statistically. When you look at his range taking into consideration staff tendencies it is not truly that great.

Guess he is just good enough to fool me, and the people that vote.

Think all these stats are starting to make you blind.

[Astro]

Why would there be discussion about Andruw?
Because his range is no where close to what it used to be

[SamtheBravesFan]

Because his range is no where close to what it used to be

Can't argue with that. At the very minimum, he's a very good fielder still.

EDIT: That's it. The reason that his fielding stats appear less than stellar these days is because he hasn't had more than 400 putouts in a season since 2002.

[AznInvasion]

Plus, people don't run on Andruw as much because of his reputation. The exact opposite is true of Soriano. Andruw's range may be in decline but he still gets the best first jump on the ball.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Plus, people don't run on Andruw as much because of his reputation. The exact opposite is true of Soriano. Andruw's range may be in decline but he still gets the best first jump on the ball.

Guess so. He had just 4 assissts in '06.

[rockiesfan4ever]

That's [nonsense] Carroll should of won. 3 or 4 errors and 2-3 of them on Bonds' shift. He should of won it!!!!

[HOOTIE]

Guess he is just good enough to fool me, and the people that vote.

Think all these stats are starting to make you blind.

Omar wins another undesreved GG. Everett blew him out of the water. Omar was 9th in NL in defensive win shares. In FRAA, he was at 0, to Everetts 19. GG are a joke. Omar is probably the most overrated ss in history.

[rockiesfan4ever]

sorry about the language I was [angry]

[Rapmaster]

kinda off topic, but anybody remember last year when Andruw gunned someone down at home from the warning track? It was a sac fly and he ignored the cutoff man. I'm pretty sure the guy should've been safe, but he one hopped it and made it a lot closer than it ever should've been.

Jones doesn't have the ridiculous range he did in hte late 90s and early 2000s when he was a 30 sb threat (weight issues and knees caught up), but he's still very much among the best. As somebody stated earlier, his jump is incredible.

[RuthMayBond]

There shouldn't be a debate about the NL's SS.
Why wouldn't there be a debate about a guy who was clearly behind Everett?

[RuthMayBond]

That's [nonsense] Carroll should of won. 3 or 4 errors and 2-3 of them on Bonds' shift. He should of won it!!!!Unless it's possible that fielding is also about getting to baseballs, not just errors

[RuthMayBond]

Omar wins another undesreved GG. Everett blew him out of the water. Omar was 9th in NL in defensive win shares. In FRAA, he was at 0, to Everetts 19. GG are a joke. Omar is probably the most overrated ss in history.It's a good competition with Jeter :laugh

[Pine Tar]

It's a good competition with Jeter :laugh
WHen I saw that Vizquel won the award over Everett I figured the Vizquel haters would get all worked up. Certainly, Everett had a better defensive year than Vizquel. There really isn't much denying that. However, based on range factors and fielding percentage and other intangibles that Vizquel brings to the field, it seemed pretty clear that Vizquel was the second best this year. So its hardly a travesty of justice that Vizquel won. And certainly, he was more deserving that Jeter was.

[hellborn]

Guess he is just good enough to fool me, and the people that vote.

Think all these stats are starting to make you blind.

You know, that Jack Cust has a beautiful swing. He should have won a Silver Slugger.

[ElCaminoSS]

Nomar should have won for first base....

[Zito75]

You obviously haven't watched him play defense the past two seasons.

You're right. We don't have the Cards in Spring Training here, nor do I ever get a chance to watch them on TV. All I was saying is that his selection surprised me.

[Evangelion]

Jeter's name get mention even in a National League Gold Glove topic?

In this case, Everett was clearly the best SS in NL. Do you need statistic to know that? Just watch Everett play a couple of games at SS and you'll understand why he's such an excellent fielding SS.

Omar getting old, so people should consider how many he balls he let get past him due to his declining speed. The older you get, the slower you get. Omar not exception to that. His name gave him the GG once again.

[HOOTIE]

WHen I saw that Vizquel won the award over Everett I figured the Vizquel haters would get all worked up. Certainly, Everett had a better defensive year than Vizquel. There really isn't much denying that. However, based on range factors and fielding percentage and other intangibles that Vizquel brings to the field, it seemed pretty clear that Vizquel was the second best this year. So its hardly a travesty of justice that Vizquel won. And certainly, he was more deserving that Jeter was.

Omar wasn't close to 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th. He was exactly average. FRAA of 0. Furcal was at 11.

[Pine Tar]

Omar wasn't close to 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th. He was exactly average. FRAA of 0. Furcal was at 11.
Furcal also had 27 errors! I know that numbers of errors don't mean that much, but 27 errors is an aweful lot of them. In fact it is one less than leading the league. Vizquel had 4 which was the fewest in the league. Furcal was 10th in the league in Zone rating, Vizquel was second.

[RuthMayBond]

WHen I saw that Vizquel won the award over Everett I figured the Vizquel haters would get all worked up.First of all I'm not a Vizquel "hater" unless hater means trying to get things accurate

<Certainly, Everett had a better defensive year than Vizquel. There really isn't much denying that.>

So shouldn't that end the story?

<However, based on range factors and fielding percentage and other intangibles that Vizquel brings to the field,>

Vizquel is no better than seventh in adjusted range factor, and the ol' intangibles are getting a little tired

[RuthMayBond]

Nomar should have won for first base....Don't complain when they acutally get one right ;)

[Pine Tar]

Vizquel is no better than seventh in adjusted range factor, and the ol' intangibles are getting a little tired
I wonder how many Giants games you watched this year. Did you see the game early in the year when Vizquel got a double play by taking the throw for a force at second and instead of going to first spun around to throw it to third and timed it so the runner going around third was just establishing his lead so was caught off guard and tagged out. Or did you only see the box score of that game?

[KHenry14]

Vizquel had an outstanding year defensively for the Giants, well deserved!

[Pine Tar]

<Certainly, Everett had a better defensive year than Vizquel. There really isn't much denying that.>

So shouldn't that end the story?

It might have been but you implied that Jeter and Vizquel are the most overrated SS in history.
So check yourself before checking me.

[Dasperp]

Omar wasn't close to 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th. He was exactly average. FRAA of 0

BP's fielding stats are not at all reliable. Nobody knows how they're calculated, and you see a lot of WTF? ratings. I'm not really sure about defensive win shares, but i know it's not done using pbp data. I trust ZR, UZR and Dewan's stats much more than either of those. ZR had Vizquel as very good, so it's not like Jeter winning, but it's clear Everett was better.

[Rapmaster]

I wonder how many Giants games you watched this year. Did you see the game early in the year when Vizquel got a double play by taking the throw for a force at second and instead of going to first spun around to throw it to third and timed it so the runner going around third was just establishing his lead so was caught off guard and tagged out. Or did you only see the box score of that game?

...that's called a foolish play. The only reason he gets praise for it is because the lead runner messed up. Besides, gold gloves aren't won due to one good (or bad?) play, that's what ESPYs are for.

It was a legacy pick. He's still a good defender but he's no longer the best as the award implies.

[Old Sweater]

Fielding%

Vizquel- .993
Everett-.990

[EvanAparra]

Don't complain when they acutally get one right ;)
Jeez, RMB, I cant believe Everett didn't win...

[EvanAparra]

Fielding%

Vizquel- .993
Everett-.990
Means ABSOLUTELY nothing. Everett was so much better than Vizquel this year.

[EvanAparra]

Vizquel had an outstanding year defensively for the Giants, well deserved!
Not at all. Everett is far and away the best SS in all the major leagues. This shows how people win out of reputation more than production.

[hubkittel]

chris dial over at baseball think factory had everett's runs saved at 27 and visquel's at 11. the two weren't even in the same ballpark defensively.

he also had this to say: "If Ozzie Smith was as good as Adam Everett, he was incredible. Everett is on the verge of saving the most runs on defense over the last 20 years. He’s truly incredible at outpacing his peers."

[Old Sweater]

Means ABSOLUTELY nothing.

Sure it does, just like batting average. Throw in the "ifs and buts" factor, Jeter would have probably won the batting title to.

[EvanAparra]

Sure it does, just like batting average. Throw in the "ifs and buts" factor, Jeter would have probably won the batting title to.
Its nothing like batting average. Batting average actually shows how you do on every at bat... Fielding percentage only measures how you do on the balls you get to, not the ones that you dont have enough range to get to. Everett has the best range of SS in MLB, and has been the best defensive player in all of baseball for about 3 years now.

[Skin & Bones]

chris dial over at baseball think factory had everett's runs saved at 27 and visquel's at 11. the two weren't even in the same ballpark defensively.

he also had this to say: "If Ozzie Smith was as good as Adam Everett, he was incredible. Everett is on the verge of saving the most runs on defense over the last 20 years. He’s truly incredible at outpacing his peers."

Chris Dial's metric, while good, produces some slipshod results. It's, IMO, not something you should put 100% stock into.

[EvanAparra]

Chris Dial's metric, while good, produces some slipshod results. It's, IMO, not something you should put 100% stock into.
Is there any metric you should put 100% stock into? No.

[RuthMayBond]

I wonder how many Giants games you watched this year. Did you see the game early in the year when Vizquel got a double play by taking the throw for a force at second and instead of going to first spun around to throw it to third and timed it so the runner going around third was just establishing his lead so was caught off guard and tagged out. Or did you only see the box score of that game?One game, that settles it

[Skin & Bones]

Is there any metric you should put 100% stock into? No.

No, but some more than others. I feel that his metric has significant inaccuracies in it. You could check this link for some good arguements regarding his metric and it's results.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/

[RuthMayBond]

It might have been but you implied that Jeter and Vizquel are the most overrated SS in history.
So check yourself before checking me.What exactly am I checking, and you can feel free to volunteer defensive SS more overrated than them

[RuthMayBond]

Jeez, RMB, I cant believe Everett didn't win...I can believe it. That's why the comment about them actually getting one right

[milladrive]

Why would there be discussion about Andruw?

I'm up for a discussion about why his parents didn't know how to spell his name. :p jk

[EvanAparra]

I can believe it. That's why the comment about them actually getting one right
:rolleyes: ... That HAD to be Everett's reaction when he heard Vizquel won over him...

[Pine Tar]

...that's called a foolish play. The only reason he gets praise for it is because the lead runner messed up. Besides, gold gloves aren't won due to one good (or bad?) play, that's what ESPYs are for.

It was a legacy pick. He's still a good defender but he's no longer the best as the award implies.

How is it a foolish play? Did you even see the play? There was no chance to get the guy out at first, and probably due to studying film Vizquel knew that the guy rounding third takes too much of a lead and he took advantage of it. How does that make VIZQUEL foolish? I don't think he is the one that looks foolish here. And no that is not what gold gloves are for but how many other plays did Vizquel pull off that I wasn't able to see? I guess I shouldn't take too much time with this since you at least state that Vizquel is still a good defender unlike Ruth who seems to think he is average at best.

[Skin & Bones]

How is it a foolish play? Did you even see the play? There was no chance to get the guy out at first, and probably due to studying film Vizquel knew that the guy rounding third takes too much of a lead and he took advantage of it. How does that make VIZQUEL foolish? I don't think he is the one that looks foolish here. And no that is not what gold gloves are for but how many other plays did Vizquel pull off that I wasn't able to see? I guess I shouldn't take too much time with this since you at least state that Vizquel is still a good defender unlike Ruth who seems to think he is average at best.

Vizquel WAS a great defender in his prime. Deserving of some GoldGloves, just not them all. He's good now, but not deserving of the GoldGlove. And he certainly isn't the best defensive SS ever.

[Pine Tar]

What exactly am I checking, and you can feel free to volunteer defensive SS more overrated than them
That is a really stupid question. That's like asking for you to give me an example of a question that was dumber than the one you just asked.

[Pine Tar]

Vizquel WAS a great defender in his prime. Deserving of some GoldGloves, just not them all. He's good now, but not deserving of the GoldGlove. And he certainly isn't the best defensive SS ever.
I don't think anyone in this thread said that Vizquel was/is the best defensive player ever. I also said that Everett should have won it this year. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Vizquel didn't deserve it. THat seems a bit harsh to me. Also, please show me which player with multiple GG deserved them all.

[Skin & Bones]

I don't think anyone in this thread said that Vizquel was/is the best defensive player ever. I also said that Everett should have won it this year. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Vizquel didn't deserve it. THat seems a bit harsh to me. Also, please show me which player with multiple GG deserved them all.

Well, weren't you debating whether or not Vizquel is one of the most overrated defensive SS ever ?

Vizquel has been called many times the best defensive SS that ever lived. That right there, is grossly overrating him.

[Pine Tar]

Well, weren't you debating whether or not Vizquel is one of the most overrated defensive SS ever ?

Vizquel has been called many times the best defensive SS that ever lived. That right there, is grossly overrating him.
I don't think that many people view Vizquel as the best defensive SS that ever lived. I think you are wrong there. I think that Ozzie Smith is firmly viewed as the best ever without much debate.

[Old Sweater]

Its nothing like batting average. Batting average actually shows how you do on every at bat... Fielding percentage only measures how you do on the balls you get to, not the ones that you dont have enough range to get to. Everett has the best range of SS in MLB, and has been the best defensive player in all of baseball for about 3 years now.

IMO Fielding % is a lot more accurate than BA. Say your a batter that has had to face the likes of Vizquel or Everett 19 times a year if they're in your division and they had robbed you of 5 to 10 hits. You never hear to much crying and bellyaching when Ichiro gets 20+ base hits a year because of his speed and hitting lefty. What about all the at'em balls that are caught. BA will always have a lot more breaks and rolls then fielding%.

BTW, is there any link that will show the complete voting results.

[EvanAparra]

IMO Fielding % is a lot more accurate than BA. Say your a batter that has had to face the likes of Vizquel or Everett 19 times a year if they're in your division and they had robbed you of 5 to 10 hits. You never hear to much crying and bellyaching when Ichiro gets 20+ base hits a year because of his speed and hitting lefty. What about all the at'em balls that are caught. BA will always have a lot more breaks and rolls then fielding%.

Except that you could let a ball roll right past you without even trying for it, and it wont count against you Fielding %. Reaaal accurate.

[EvanAparra]

That is a really stupid question. That's like asking for you to give me an example of a question that was dumber than the one you just asked.
Thanks for the insight.:rolleyes:

[Pine Tar]

Thanks for the insight.:rolleyes:
and you as well

[Old Sweater]

Except that you could let a ball roll right past you without even trying for it, and it wont count against you Fielding %. Reaaal accurate.

Or hit one right at the fielder that lets it roll by him. Real accurate indeed.

[EvanAparra]

Or hit one right at the fielder that lets it roll by him. Real accurate indeed.
Makes no sense. If you are going to go by fielding percentage, you are going to be picking the wrong player for the GG at pretty much every position. But go ahead, the GG is pretty much a joke award now. Like the Hank Aaron.

[RuthMayBond]

That is a really stupid question. That's like asking for you to give me an example of a question that was dumber than the one you just asked.If only you could actually answer a question as well as you can insult

[Pine Tar]

If only you could actually answer a question as well as you can insult
Huh??? Do I actually have to explain this to you???
OK I'll take it slow.
You asked me to say who was more overrated than Vizquel.
That question is flawed since there is no right answer.
If I list out a bunch of SS that I think are more overrated than Vizquel then I am still saying that I believe Vizquel is overrated. If I don't list anybody, Vizquel is the most overrated. Your question is based on an intentionally false premise, that it is a given that Vizquel is overrated.
Do you think you could try to ask less biased questions?

[RuthMayBond]

Huh??? Do I actually have to explain this to you???
OK I'll take it slow.
You asked me to say who was more overrated than Vizquel.
That question is flawed since there is no right answer.
If I list out a bunch of SS that I think are more overrated than Vizquel then I am still saying that I believe Vizquel is overrated. If I don't list anybody, Vizquel is the most overrated. Your question is based on an intentionally false premise, that it is a given that Vizquel is overrated.
Do you think you could try to ask less biased questions?Why don't you explain why you feel Vizquel is not overrated, it's not that complicated. You sure I'm the only one who's biased? ;)

[Rapmaster]

How is it a foolish play? Did you even see the play? There was no chance to get the guy out at first, and probably due to studying film Vizquel knew that the guy rounding third takes too much of a lead and he took advantage of it. How does that make VIZQUEL foolish? I don't think he is the one that looks foolish here. And no that is not what gold gloves are for but how many other plays did Vizquel pull off that I wasn't able to see? I guess I shouldn't take too much time with this since you at least state that Vizquel is still a good defender unlike Ruth who seems to think he is average at best.

It was a foolish play, 9 times out of 10, the runner isn't stupid enough to get caught like that. The third base coach should have been watching out for that, that's what he gets paid to do. Vizquel studying film on the baserunning habits of every single runner? Doubtful. He'd probably spend that time watching pitchers or his at-bats on film. He made an extra throw (one that isn't commonly practiced, pivoting from second to third) that could cause more damage than good. The third basemen probably wasn't expecting that either. He throws it away (or the third basemen isn't watching) and a run scores. Yes, he did get the out. But no, he normally would not. And from what you said, it seems like more of a baserunning mistake than a great fielding play.

[Pine Tar]

It was a foolish play, 9 times out of 10, the runner isn't stupid enough to get caught like that. The third base coach should have been watching out for that, that's what he gets paid to do. Vizquel studying film on the baserunning habits of every single runner? Doubtful. He'd probably spend that time watching pitchers or his at-bats on film. He made an extra throw (one that isn't commonly practiced, pivoting from second to third) that could cause more damage than good. The third basemen probably wasn't expecting that either. He throws it away (or the third basemen isn't watching) and a run scores. Yes, he did get the out. But no, he normally would not. And from what you said, it seems like more of a baserunning mistake than a great fielding play.
Do you think that perhaps the Giants may have practiced that play. It looked planned to me. Did it look planned to you?
As for studying baserunning habits of a single runner, its not something you would study as much as notice. It remind me of one play when Tony Pena was thrown out at first after hitting a single. He had a tendency of walking back to first base after rounding first. Somebody noticed this and after he hit his single they immediately threw it to first. Was this a foolish play too?

[Pine Tar]

Why don't you explain why you feel Vizquel is not overrated, it's not that complicated. You sure I'm the only one who's biased? ;)
Another wonderful question. :rolleyes:
I said your question was biased, not you. So now you say I am biased. I think the honus is on you to say how I am biased if you are going to make that accusation. I showed pretty clearly how your question was poorly worded at best and likley biased. Why don't you show where I have been biased. In this thread, I have said that Vizquel was not the best all time, and that he was not the best choice for the GG this year. Hmmm....does that sound biased to you?

[RuthMayBond]

Another wonderful question. :rolleyes:
I said your question was biased, not you. So now you say I am biased. I think the honus is on you to say how I am biased if you are going to make that accusation. I showed pretty clearly how your question was poorly worded at best and likley biased. Why don't you show where I have been biased. In this thread, I have said that Vizquel was not the best all time, and that he was not the best choice for the GG this year. Hmmm....does that sound biased to you?The same thing I said, so how was my question biased? Do you want to discuss the ratings of players or bicker over semantics?

[DoubleX]

Not at all. Everett is far and away the best SS in all the major leagues. This shows how people win out of reputation more than production.

I was about to say the same thing. Vizquel was an all-time great defensive SS about a decade ago, but since then, he's one probably won 3 or 4 undeserved Gold Gloves just on reputation, and perhaps more. Everett should have taken this hand's down.

[Old Sweater]

Makes no sense. If you are going to go by fielding percentage, you are going to be picking the wrong player for the GG at pretty much every position.

Yeah, fielding % could be faulty, they should leave the voting up to people that know baseball, like the Managers and Coaches.

Oh wait, thats what they do, Omar must have fooled them to.

I just can picture Old School Torre looking at a bunch of stats with range,winning shares, if's & buts and guesses, instead of just watching a player. Heck if he looks at enough stats he may quit managing and clean up at some fantasy league.

[W_Marone]

In defense of Omar though, not saying he's better, he only had 4 errors in 152 games, Adam had 7 in 149. I'm not going to make an opinion on either of these guys, I know what Vizquel can do, but I have seen maybe six games where Everett has played.

[plask_stirlac]

It's true both ways, a very good glove season for Omar and somewhat deserved, but probably Everett as the better choice.

[Pine Tar]

The same thing I said, so how was my question biased? Do you want to discuss the ratings of players or bicker over semantics?
You are assuming that Vizquel being overrated is why he won the award this year. That is a biased ussumption. Have you considered the possibility that Vizquel is viewed pretty close to where he is, as an excellent fielder? Could the explanation for why Vizquel won the GG this year be less about Vizquel being overrated than about Everet being underrated? By saying that you don't have to critisize Vizquel as much as giving more credit to Everet. My initial point in all this was that Vizquel wasn't a bad choice this year, just not the best. My point was that this is not the same as Jeter winning the GG this year, which I believe is a bad choice.

[KHenry14]

I was about to say the same thing. Vizquel was an all-time great defensive SS about a decade ago, but since then, he's one probably won 3 or 4 undeserved Gold Gloves just on reputation, and perhaps more. Everett should have taken this hand's down.

Hand's down? I don't think so. Everett's a fine player, but please don't discount the season Omar had. He had a great defensive season.

[mtortolero]

In defense of Omar though, not saying he's better, he only had 4 errors in 152 games, Adam had 7 in 149. I'm not going to make an opinion on either of these guys, I know what Vizquel can do, but I have seen maybe six games where Everett has played.

Houston and San Francisco´s staff averaged almost the same amount of groundballs per inning (1.36 vs 1.33) but Everett had 90 asistances more than Vizquel with three games less played. 3 errors means nothing in front of 90 groundballs caught.
I feel very happy by Omar as venezuelan but I must admit that he won this award because his gems plays are always around on the internet or ESPN meanwhile Everett, doing a better everyday work, is only in the minds of those who are digging on the stats. The day that ESPN comes with Everett´s great plays periodically, he will win the GG.

[Rapmaster]

Houston and San Francisco´s staff averaged almost the same amount of groundballs per inning (1.36 vs 1.33) but Everett had 90 asistances more than Vizquel with three games less played. 3 errors means nothing in front of 90 groundballs caught.
I feel very happy by Omar as venezuelan but I must admit that he won this award because his gems plays are always around on the internet or ESPN meanwhile Everett, doing a better everyday work, is only in the minds of those who are digging on the stats. The day that ESPN comes with Everett´s great plays periodically, he will win the GG.

Out of curiosity (not to critique or anything) but what is your source for that groundball data? Is it specific as to where the groundballs were hit? I think that data could be real useful

[EvanAparra]

Hand's down? I don't think so. Everett's a fine player, but please don't discount the season Omar had. He had a great defensive season.
Yes, hands down. He was hands down the better defender. Im not discounting anything Omar did, just saying Everett was clearly better.

[EvanAparra]

I just can picture Old School Torre looking at a bunch of stats with range,winning shares, if's & buts and guesses, instead of just watching a player. Heck if he looks at enough stats he may quit managing and clean up at some fantasy league.
Yeah cause Torre must watch TONS of Astros and Giants games. :rolleyes:

[PhilWings24]

IMO Fielding % is a lot more accurate than BA. Say your a batter that has had to face the likes of Vizquel or Everett 19 times a year if they're in your division and they had robbed you of 5 to 10 hits. You never hear to much crying and bellyaching when Ichiro gets 20+ base hits a year because of his speed and hitting lefty. What about all the at'em balls that are caught. BA will always have a lot more breaks and rolls then fielding%.

BTW, is there any link that will show the complete voting results.


if you stand at the plate, close your eyes, take 3 straight strikes, it counts against your batting average.

do the same in the field, let a blal land 2 inches to your right, your fielding % remains the same.

you talk about the players robbing the hitters. since when is a play that can be considered a "robbery" something that shows up in fielding percentage? think about it: if fielding percentage tells the whole story, then vizquell makes 7 errors per every 1000 balls hit at him where everret makes 10 errors for every 1000 balls hit at him. at that rate, you'd have to hit 101 balls at each of them before everret made an error that vizquel didn't. meaning that it takes 101 plays for there to be any difference whatsoever.

take into account the spectacular diving plays that everret makes that vizquel downright can not, and you've got yourself well over 1 extra out per 101 plays.

fielding % is the only stat in all of sports that punishes a player for being good but not good enough, while ignoring it when he is too terrible to make a difference. its useless.

[PhilWings24]

Yeah, fielding % could be faulty, they should leave the voting up to people that know baseball, like the Managers and Coaches.


What makes you think that since someone hasa job they are indisputably qualified? What makes you think the people with those jobs are saints that are completely free of bias?


Oh wait, thats what they do, Omar must have fooled them to.


He did. You're right.


I just can picture Old School Torre looking at a bunch of stats with range,winning shares, if's & buts and guesses, instead of just watching a player. Heck if he looks at enough stats he may quit managing and clean up at some fantasy league.

Yeah dude, if only they watched players and paid less attention to stats. Then they wouldn't have inhibited wily mo's career by giving him an ML contract at the age of 16, or wasted all that money on drew henson, or traded nick johnson cus he's unathletic.

I really hate to break it to you, but just because someone is getting paid to do something doesn't mean they know exactly how to do it. Maybe if steinbrenner didn't get enamored with intimidating, big-name players, he could have spent 60 million dollars building the Tigers nucleus, and then used 140 million dollars to get a closer and an offense, shatter the all-time wins record. instead he spent 3 times as much money on a team that won 1 more game in the regular season (i think) and got knocked out earlier in the playoffs.

(my sincere apologies to yankee fans lol, i don't mean to piss any of you off here, i am just making a point that "old-school" "widely accepted" and "true" do not mean the same thing)

[hellborn]

Fielding%

Vizquel- .993
Everett-.990
Oh, that's settled, then! Thanks for ending the discussion!
Out of 1000 plays, Vizquel would make three fewer errors...never mind that he made something like 100 fewer plays than Everett over the course of a season, that doesn't mean anything!

[PopTop]

The gold gloves have long been about the most subjective awards handed out in baseball, in my opinion. There really are no hard stats to end an argument with, and it's virtually impossible for someone to sit and watch each and every fielder in order to form even a semblance of an objective conclusion for Player A over Player B.

I was at or watched on TV 128 of the Astros games this season. Caught most of the rest on radio, but hard to tell how good or great a fielding play was with just your ears, especially since Milo was doing a lot of that play-by-play :rolleyes: I didn't get to see shortstops such as Omar Vizquel and Jose Reyes but a few times. But from what I did see, there wasn't a better fielding shortstop in the National League this year than Adam Everett. Still, even I have to temper my opinion, and that's all it is, with the fact I'm naturally biased towards the Astros.

Just think of all the Astros who deserved a Gold Glove this year, Everett was the one.

Also wish they'd go with true LF-CF-RF for the outfield trio. Just doesn't seem right to not hand the awards out in that fashion.

[PopTop]

Also, I've merged the two threads on ths NL Gold Glove awards.

[RuthMayBond]

The gold gloves have long been about the most subjective awards handed out in baseball, in my opinion. There really are no hard stats to end an argument with, and it's virtually impossible for someone to sit and watch each and every fielder in order to form even a semblance of an objective conclusion for Player A over Player B.But the eyewitness people will tell you differently

<Also wish they'd go with true LF-CF-RF for the outfield trio. Just doesn't seem right to not hand the awards out in that fashion.>

What if none at any of those particular positions were having a great season that year?

[Pine Tar]

[QUOTE=RuthMayBond]But the eyewitness people will tell you differently/QUOTE]
You know, I think I am probably one of the "eyewitness" people you are talking about so I'll respond. Just because others don't agree with you doesn't make them one of "those people." Certainly there is a place for statistics and there is a place for subjective impressions in evaluating a player. Otherwise, why do we even watch baseball? I mean if we can get all we need from a spreadsheet why bother going? I think its fair to say that you are missing a big part of the game if the only thing you can talk about to evaluate a player is their FRAA. FRAA is worth something its just not the only thing.

[RuthMayBond]

[QUOTE=RuthMayBond]But the eyewitness people will tell you differently/QUOTE]
You know, I think I am probably one of the "eyewitness" people you are talking about so I'll respond. Just because others don't agree with you doesn't make them one of "those people." Certainly there is a place for statistics and there is a place for subjective impressions in evaluating a player.Yes there is, but if I had a nickel for every time stats have been bashed by eyewitness people I'd be retired

[Pine Tar]

[QUOTE=Pine Tar]Yes there is, but if I had a nickel for every time stats have been bashed by eyewitness people I'd be retired
You can say there is a place for eyewitness impressions but if you don't acknowledge their worth during a debate about the value of a player, or if you are sarcastic with persons who bring up their impressions, you aren't really being authentic. By putting people in a corner you are also making people look for ways to critisize the statistics you are using. Its sort of a cyle thing.:D

[Old Sweater]

Yeah cause Torre must watch TONS of Astros and Giants games. :rolleyes:

OK, same for LaRussa or Baker then.

[Old Sweater]

Oh, that's settled, then! Thanks for ending the discussion!
Out of 1000 plays, Vizquel would make three fewer errors...never mind that he made something like 100 fewer plays than Everett over the course of a season, that doesn't mean anything!

Thats why it is called fielding %. Vizquel shouldn't be penalized just because the Giants have more fly ball pitchers than the Astros. Vizquel played 1281.1 innings and Everett played 1292.1 innings, so it's about equal as you can get there. Out of the 4 errors that Vizquel made I saw 1 this year, he actually brought up his glove to soon to turn a DP, I'm still in shock.

For those of you that think BA is more accurate then FP


No. Player Team AVG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K HBP SB CS GDP OBP SLG OPS
15. Omar Vizquel SF .296 577 87 171 22 10 4 58 56 51 6 24 7 13 .362 .390 .
42. Adam Everett HOU .240 512 52 123 28 6 6 59 34 71 4 9 6 5 .291 .354

The Bat always has to much to say in the GG awards and your not helping your cause to much with a .240 BA.

[Old Sweater]

What makes you think that since someone hasa job they are indisputably qualified? What makes you think the people with those jobs are saints that are completely free of bias?



Not indisputably, but yes, they make their living doing it.

Not completely free of bias, but they sure don't let where a player is from affect their voting do they?



Yeah dude, if only they watched players and paid less attention to stats. Then they wouldn't have inhibited wily mo's career by giving him an ML contract at the age of 16, or wasted all that money on drew henson, or traded nick johnson cus he's unathletic.

I really hate to break it to you, but just because someone is getting paid to do something doesn't mean they know exactly how to do it. Maybe if steinbrenner didn't get enamored with intimidating, big-name players, he could have spent 60 million dollars building the Tigers nucleus, and then used 140 million dollars to get a closer and an offense, shatter the all-time wins record. instead he spent 3 times as much money on a team that won 1 more game in the regular season (i think) and got knocked out earlier in the playoffs.

(my sincere apologies to yankee fans lol, i don't mean to piss any of you off here, i am just making a point that "old-school" "widely accepted" and "true" do not mean the same thing)

Once again they make their living doing it and must know something. Baseball has been most of their lives (managers and coaches) some of the GM's and Owners leave a lot to be desired.

The managers pay attention to plenty of stats. Then they have enough coaches, scouts and front office people that know them inside out.

Don't worry so much about Ol George tho, does anybody in baseball turn a bigger profit then him and does any team pay more to baseball then the Yankees or draw a bigger crowd. I have followed the Yankees as long as I can remember, 1958 or so, just have a Rockie Avatar because Colorado finally got a team in 1993.

[PhilWings24]

Once again they make their living doing it and must know something. Baseball has been most of their lives (managers and coaches) some of the GM's and Owners leave a lot to be desired.

true, but not everything. billy beane hires almost exclusively baseball outsiders, defies just about every bit of conventional wisdom out there, and is doin awful well for himself.


Don't worry so much about Ol George tho, does anybody in baseball turn a bigger profit then him and does any team pay more to baseball then the Yankees or draw a bigger crowd. I have followed the Yankees as long as I can remember, 1958 or so, just have a Rockie Avatar because Colorado finally got a team in 1993.

ah nice, i do actually always like to see long time yanks fans. so many of them now are kids who watch 3 playoff games and try to builg a case that jorge posada is a better defensive cather than ivan rodriguez.

that aside, steinbrenner have lost money for 4 straight years now (the sox, i think, have lost money 2 times in the last 4 years too, and lost money in 2004). both of them have plenty more to lose before they need to start selling their cars though lol, you're right.

[Old Sweater]

if you stand at the plate, close your eyes, take 3 straight strikes, it counts against your batting average.

do the same in the field, let a blal land 2 inches to your right, your fielding % remains the same.

fielding % is the only stat in all of sports that punishes a player for being good but not good enough, while ignoring it when he is too terrible to make a difference. its useless.

Wouldn't know about standing and letting a ball land 2 inches from you, never saw a Pro Player do it. Same for batting with your eyes closed. Get your drift tho, lets keep to reality.

Hit 30 at'em balls in a row and your BA go's down. Hit 100 soft serve dairy queen opposite field singles a season "see 215lb. Pete Rose" and you have multi .300 BA seasons. Hit a Willie Masconi shot off the end of the bat and get rewarded with a double. Get jammed and get a Texas Leaguer, outfielder falls down because his spikes slip, you get a double. Go's on and on. FP is a lot more accurate then BA.

I could see a valid reason for Aurilia but not "Omar the Great". When the writers were always discussing who is best SS between Jeter, Nomar and A-Rod I would laugh because none of them could compare with Omars glove.

[Old Sweater]

Phil Wing wrote

that aside, steinbrenner have lost money for 4 straight years now

---------------------------------------------


Was going by this for Yankee Profit (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/334613.html)

And if you want to click on Your Team (http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/attachment.php?attachmentid=2788&d=1162524282)

[EvanAparra]

The Bat always has to much to say in the GG awards and your not helping your cause to much with a .240 BA.
Well, you pretty much just made your case look ridiculous by talking about batting. Has nothing to do with GG whatsoever.

Sorry buddy, but look up any advanced metric and it will show you how much better Everett was this year, and the year before, and the year before that.

[EvanAparra]

When the writers were always discussing who is best SS between Jeter, Nomar and A-Rod I would laugh because none of them could compare with Omars glove.
Must have looked pretty weird laughing when people should have been laughing at you. No one was saying that all those guys had a better glove, however all three were better than Omar because of their offensive production.

[Evangelion]

It's weird for a person that likely didn't watch Everett play more than a handful of games say he's the hand down winner looking just at statistic. I can see Astro fans or NL fans debate this issue since they likely watched Everett enough along with Vizquel, but a person to get involved in this debate using just statistic, which are not that great of a judge of a fielder's ability like statistic are for offensive.

[RuthMayBond]

It's weird for a person that likely didn't watch Everett play more than a handful of games say he's the hand down winner looking just at statistic. I can see Astro fans or NL fans debate this issue since they likely watched Everett enough along with Vizquel, but a person to get involved in this debate using just statistic, which are not that great of a judge of a fielder's ability like statistic are for offensive.What about when Everett is ahead in basically EVERY stat? Coincidence? :rolleyes:

[Evangelion]

What about when Everett is ahead in basically EVERY stat? Coincidence? :rolleyes:
I'm sure you like looking at numbers to determine that.

I'm not argue the fact Everett was my pick for GG since I watched him played and watched Vizquel played enough games. You don't need a statistic to tell you Vizquel's range declining. He's getting older, so he's getting slower and can't cover as much ground.

Just odd when people are argue the fact about GG that much. Especially when people that are just loooking at numbers to decide this who's the best on the field.

[mtortolero]

Out of curiosity (not to critique or anything) but what is your source for that groundball data? Is it specific as to where the groundballs were hit? I think that data could be real useful

I did it by myself on espn.com/stats/pitchers, paste in a worksheet all the NL pitchers with IP and GB stats, then made subtotals by team. Long homework, if you want the workshet let me know your email address.

[PopTop]

But the eyewitness people will tell you differentlyThat's just it, there's no one who is an eyewitness to it all.

What if none at any of those particular positions were having a great season that year?Then So-&-So is still the gold glove left fielder, not the runner-up center fielder.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm sure you like looking at numbers to determine that.

I'm not argue the fact Everett was my pick for GG since I watched him played and watched Vizquel played enough games. You don't need a statistic to tell you Vizquel's range declining. He's getting older, so he's getting slower and can't cover as much ground.

Just odd when people are argue the fact about GG that much. Especially when people that are just loooking at numbers to decide this who's the best on the field.Unless you're watching every guy for most of their games

[RuthMayBond]

Then So-&-So is still the gold glove left fielder, not the runner-up center fielder.What if the "runner-up" center fielder had a better year than the "gold glove" left fielder?

[Rapmaster]

What if the "runner-up" center fielder had a better year than the "gold glove" left fielder?

They're technically different positions. It's kinda like giving the second best shortstop the GG at second because he was still better in the middle infield. And for the record, I would rather have the position be OF not LF,RF, and CF. I have no idea why.

[EvanAparra]

It's weird for a person that likely didn't watch Everett play more than a handful of games say he's the hand down winner looking just at statistic. I can see Astro fans or NL fans debate this issue since they likely watched Everett enough along with Vizquel, but a person to get involved in this debate using just statistic, which are not that great of a judge of a fielder's ability like statistic are for offensive.
Hmm... lets see... Evangelion speaking about something he doesn't know? I think I saw about 10-15 Astros games IN PERSON this year, not counting all the other ones I saw on tv. But yeah... statistic... hm....

[RuthMayBond]

They're technically different positions. It's kinda like giving the second best shortstop the GG at second because he was still better in the middle infield. And for the record, I would rather have the position be OF not LF,RF, and CF. I have no idea why.They're not technically different per GG. The positions for GG ARE three OF, have been since after the first few years

[Rapmaster]

They're not technically different per GG. The positions for GG ARE three OF, have been since after the first few years

I know. I'm saying it doesn't really make sense (as left field is indeed a different position than centerfield) but I like it that way.

[Evangelion]

Unless you're watching every guy for most of their games
I'll take fan of the Astors' opinion or a fan of the Giants' opinion about their SS, over a person just looking at numbers. They might be bias to a degree, but that probably got a better idea of how good their player is compare to a person that looked at numbers or watched a couple of games that player played.
Hmm... lets see... Evangelion speaking about something he doesn't know? I think I saw about 10-15 Astros games IN PERSON this year, not counting all the other ones I saw on tv. But yeah... statistic... hm....
You watch 10-15 games out of 162. You got a good idea how superior Everett is over Vizquel? Watching 6% of the games a player played.

How many games you watch Vizquel play this season?

I'm not argue the fact that Everett deserve a GG, but I'm not going to grip about it like I know how great Everett is on the field. I watch 10-15 games for both the Astros and Giants, so I don't have best idea how good both players were on the field. Numbers help determine offense more clearly, but numbers don't do it for defense.

[EvanAparra]

I'll take fan of the Astors' opinion or a fan of the Giants' opinion, over a person just looking at numbers. They might be bias to a degree, but that probably got a better idea of how good their player is compare to a person that looked at numbers.

You watch 10-15 games out of 162. Yes, you got a good idea how superior Everett is over Vizquel.

How many games you watch Vizquel play this season?

I watch 10-15 games for both the Astros and Giants, so I don't have best idea how good both players were on the field. Numbers help determine offense more clearly, but numbers don't do it for defense.


Hmm... maybe you didnt read what I wrote. I said 10-15 games in person, and a heck of a lot more on tv. I watch more Astros games than the average Astros fan because those are the local games that are on every night. So there ya go. (10-15 out of 162 you say?)

EDIT: BTW, no bias, I hate the Astros. I, along with everyone else except for you and Giant fans apparently, can see that Everett is the better defensive shortstop.

[Rapmaster]

Hmm... maybe you didnt read what I wrote. I said 10-15 games in person, and a heck of a lot more on tv. I watch more Astros games than the average Astros fan because those are the local games that are on every night. So there ya go. (10-15 out of 162 you say?)

EDIT: BTW, no bias, I hate the Astros. I, along with everyone else except for you and Giant fans apparently, can see that Everett is the better defensive shortstop.

Ronny Cedeno > Everett, there's the travesty. :D

[Nomtoc]

P: Greg Maddux, LAD


Kudos! Got to love that man!

[EvanAparra]

Ronny Cedeno > Everett, there's the travesty. :D
:laugh :laugh :laugh