NYC council considering ban on metal bats for HS varsity baseball

[Mattingly]

I've been hearing it on the radio, but so far, this is the first link I've found to it. A few days old, but still interesting. Here's the AP story:

Metal Baseball Bats Ban? (http://www.wcbs880.com/pages/112529.php)
New York (AP) -- City Councilmembers on Monday called for a ban on metal baseball bats in high schools during a hearing that featured emotional testimony from the family of a Montana teenager who was killed in 2003 after getting hit by a ball ricocheting off an aluminum bat.

"Brandon didn't have a chance,'' said Debbie Patch, whose son died after being hit in the temple by a ball hit with an aluminum bat during an American Legion game for Miles City, Mont. "There was no way he could react.''

Members of the council's Committee on Youth Services said aluminum bats are more dangerous than traditional wood bats because the batted ball travels faster. Researchers from Brown University, in a limited study on bat performance several years ago, found metal bats, overall, easily outperformed wooden counterparts.

"We should not accept an increased risk beyond that which is in inherent in the sport,'' said Councilman James Oddo, of Staten Island, the chief sponsor of a bill prohibiting the use of non-wood bats in city high schools.

But representatives of sporting goods manufacturers and the city Department of Education said there's no proof that wood bats are safer than the aluminum bats that have been used in youth sports for the last 30 years. Last year, American Legion's National Baseball Subcommittee, after a nine-month review that took into account studies and statistics from a range of sources, concluded there was no substantial scientific evidence to support argument that wood bats are safer.

Martin Oestreicher, the chief executive of the Office of School Support Services for city schools said, "We do not support this legislation because we do not believe the banning of aluminum bats will enhance the safety of our baseball players.''

[pesky6]

Honestly, I'm not surprised by this. Our society has a knee-jerk reaction to everything nowadays. Exactly how many times has someone died as a result of this kind of injury? It's just bad luck.

Don't get me wrong--I hate aluminum bats, but get rid of them for the right reasons, not because of one incident.

[DoubleX]

NYC is considering a ban because of something that happened in Montana? Strange.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I would be in favor of this. I would love to use a wood bat in my league. However, since everyone else uses metal, it is too much of a disadvantage to use wood. I love the feel, and sound of a wooden bat. I would love to play in a league that uses wood. Couple this with the fact that it would be safer they have a pretty good argument. Cost might be an issue, but that could be overcome with funding, fundraising and buying in bulk.

[tommybaseball]

You people are incredibly uninformed. This is like Big Tobacco on a different level. There have been numerous deaths and severe injuries. The BESR (bat exit speed ratio) ratings were deliberately manufactured under unrealistic conditions to get the desired outcome (slower pitch and bat speed). Numerous cases have gone unreported because they have been settled out of court and therefore, do not become statistics.
Balls batted off of wood bats can also cause injuries and death. By the same token, you can get killed in a car accident if the driver is doing 75 miles per hour and also in a car going 55mph. I like my chances better in the car going 55mph.
If it were your kid out on the mound, how would you feel if he were severely injured or killed, knowing that it could have been prevented if he had that extra split second to get his glove up in front of his face?

[BMH]

Wow, never been called big tobacco...I guess we are in the right state for it :) How exactly did you determine that the test is modified to allow these "desired outcomes".

[CanadianKid]

I would be in favor of this. I would love to use a wood bat in my league. However, since everyone else uses metal, it is too much of a disadvantage to use wood. I love the feel, and sound of a wooden bat. I would love to play in a league that uses wood. Couple this with the fact that it would be safer they have a pretty good argument. Cost might be an issue, but that could be overcome with funding, fundraising and buying in bulk.

IMO wood is MUCH better than metal. We use wood in my league. It took a while to adjust but we're getting used to it now. As for cost we bought a few Brett bats(bamboo core) at $150(CAN) each and has a 3 month warranty if chipped, dented or breaks you cna return and replace for free. I also picked up a louisville slugger bat (ash) for $20(US) and a Rawlings Big Stick for $20(US) while in California and Easton Pro Stick maple for $40(US).

[tommybaseball]

Wow, never been called big tobacco...I guess we are in the right state for it :) How exactly did you determine that the test is modified to allow these "desired outcomes".

I did not determine any of this. Please go to this website and pose the question to someone who has done extensive research on this subject and had numerous experts appear on his show, including ex-pro Steve Balboni, lawyer Steve Callas and umpires who do games in both metal and wood bat games:
http://www.sportsparenting.org/csp/

Rick Wolf has a National Radio Program on 1050 WFAN called The Sports Edge. To give you an example of the doctored numbers, my son, who is a junior in high school was clocked at 85mph with a radar gun 2 summers ago. Several high school pitchers throw in the mid to upper 70's, with others reaching the low 80's. College pitchers routinely throw in the 80's, with some reaching 90mph. The test had the pitching machine set at 65-68 mph and the bat speed set, at I believe 70mph. (These numbers are close but the website can give exact mph numbers if you pose the question in an e-mail to Mr. Wolf)

Here is a partial description of the Louisville TPX 2006 Exogrid -3 Adult Baseball Bat

"The Exogrid stiff handle allows for more barrel flex resulting in max trampoline effect and ultimately greater ball travel."

Even a simpleton can put this one together. The greater ball travel doesn't just begin after the ball passes the pitcher and/or the corner infielders. It will obviously get to the pitchers skull a lot faster.

Now if you happen to be a rep from the company and are playing cute, you know exactly what is going on here and you've heard the "Big Tobacco" comparison before. I heard Jim Darby's explanation on the show and how they make the bats to the standards of the law.
Well pal, the law is wrong and it needs to change.

I didn't determine the test numbers, I learned from listening. But here is what I did determine. After coaching for 5 years in New York City, Westchester, Staten Island, New Jersey, Baltimore and Chicago, I saw my share of games, players, coaches and umpires. I frequently asked them about the wood/metal bat debate. Many of them knew nothing of it. The umpires laughed when posed the question. The difference is night and day.
Did I ever witness a serious injury from a batted ball? No. Did I ever witness a ball lined past a pitchers head before he had time to react? Numerous times.
It was the main reason our team switched to wood.

[BMH]

Nope, not a "rep" playing cute. I'm the wood bat production manager for Louisville Slugger. I was honestly asking where you have heard this information from, I hadn't seen the two sites you posted before.

I have also honestly never heard of the Big Tobacco comparison. I've been called the "Evil Empire" by SAM bat, but not big tobacco.

I love the sound of wood as it hits a ball. If a league decides to switch to wood so be it, more bats for me to make. I'm not here to debate you and I won't, that isn't for us to decide on a message board.

[Mattingly]

Nope, not a "rep" playing cute. I'm the wood bat production manager for Louisville Slugger. I was honestly asking where you have heard this information from, I hadn't seen the two sites you posted before.
In that case, can you please let us know of how your company does work with amateur leagues? Be they college, HS, JHS, LL, etc, please do elaborate on how your firm sponsors, sells or anything related to those types of teams.

Thx. :)

[BMH]

At the college level we offer sponsorships similar to the deals that Pro basketball teams get with shoe deals. A contract is awarded by the AD to which company meets the criteria. We don't have as many of these as we used too, with Nike and K2 (owns Rawlings and Worth) dumping money into most colleges entire athletic programs, we can't compete on that level.

We do not offer these sort of packages to HS or lower leagues since that would directly target our dealer's markets. We do sponsor Player of the Year awards for HS. We also have a bat licensing agreement with governing bodies of the Youth leagues. We also sponsor several tournaments throughout the year.

I hope this information helps.

[bluezebra]

You people are incredibly uninformed. This is like Big Tobacco on a different level. There have been numerous deaths and severe injuries. The BESR (bat exit speed ratio) ratings were deliberately manufactured under unrealistic conditions to get the desired outcome (slower pitch and bat speed). Numerous cases have gone unreported because they have been settled out of court and therefore, do not become statistics.
Balls batted off of wood bats can also cause injuries and death. By the same token, you can get killed in a car accident if the driver is doing 75 miles per hour and also in a car going 55mph. I like my chances better in the car going 55mph.
If it were your kid out on the mound, how would you feel if he were severely injured or killed, knowing that it could have been prevented if he had that extra split second to get his glove up in front of his face?

"This is like Big Tobacco on a different level."

In what way?

Bob

[tommybaseball]

At the college level we offer sponsorships similar to the deals that Pro basketball teams get with shoe deals. A contract is awarded by the AD to which company meets the criteria. We don't have as many of these as we used too, with Nike and K2 (owns Rawlings and Worth) dumping money into most colleges entire athletic programs, we can't compete on that level.

We do not offer these sort of packages to HS or lower leagues since that would directly target our dealer's markets. We do sponsor Player of the Year awards for HS. We also have a bat licensing agreement with governing bodies of the Youth leagues. We also sponsor several tournaments throughout the year.

I hope this information helps.

If this law goes through and metal bats are banned in New York as they already are in Massachusetts, and other states follow, doesn't this financial aspect become one of your primary focuses? According to Martin Oestreicher, the education official who oversees the PSAL,“A citywide changeover from metal to wood bats would cost $253,000” and this does not include the C.H.S.A.A. , private school leagues and summer sandlot leagues. This is an extremely heavy financial burden.
It would only be a short matter of time before high schools got wise, pooled their resourses together and looked for one supplier to buy from in bulk. Only a company with the mentality of Haliburton would spend wastefully and buy the garbage wood bats that Modells and the Sports Authority sell. Then they could say, "See, they just keep breaking, it just costs too much money."
I had to learn the hard way with my team; nearly 6 dozen broken bats from April through October one season.

Here is an example from the web of how injuries do not become statistics:

Wood Bats
I have a left hander who pitches for his high school and our very competitive select team at the 16-17-U age level. I cringe everytime a ball is hit back up the middle. He has been hit about 4 times. Once very hard in the elbow area, his arm blew up twice the size, also in the collarbone playing first on a line drive. But on the mound you have very little time to react. That is why we now go to Wood Bat world series and hope to play wood bat as much as possible this year. I support the ban on metal bats, as they are like steroids. The manufacturers have a big lobby and will do what it takes to quash this attempt to ban metal..... The pitchers have not been given an advantage. Why should the hitters have one? I read the story and had a very sick feeling about what happened to Brandon Patch. I think of my lefty and it is not worth it. GO TO WOOD BATS NOW!!!!!
Posted by: John Silvani, Manager Ohio Heat Baseball

Mr. Silvani's son does not become a statistic and in this way, Republican lobbyists who oppose the bill to ban metal bats can chirp that statistics show that there is no danger.

Here's a comment from readers responding to a vote in Miles City Montana, where Brandon Patch was killed after being struck in the head by a line drive off of a metal bat:

-- House Bill 588 deadlocked — 9 Democrats for and 9 Republicans against. How disappointed I was to realize that political allegiance overshadowed the real issue of the bill. Were all of us who supported the bill Democrats? I think not! We are concerned citizens who have experienced first hand the tragic consequences directly related to the use of nonwood bats in baseball.

To be fair, Jim Oddo is a Republican and he has been the single most vocal opponent to metal bats for years. It apperars that there is a glimmer hope for non-partisanship when it comes to common sense after all!

[tommybaseball]

Wow, never been called big tobacco...I guess we are in the right state for it :) How exactly did you determine that the test is modified to allow these "desired outcomes".

Here's the Big Tobacco comparison:
http://www.nyssf.org/baseballbats.html

I suspect that you've heard of Jack McKay?

[tommybaseball]

"This is like Big Tobacco on a different level."

In what way?

Bob

Glad you asked Bob. Read this:
http://www.silive.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/opinion/1161606635242330.xml&coll=1

At $250.00 -$300.00 a pipe, uh I guess I mean a pop, theres a lot of money to be made. Multiply that by the number of high schools, colleges, little leagues, sandlot leagues.

Ask yourself this too Bob- Why would any college coach who gets a nice fat payoff from a major bat company say that metal bats are dangerous? Not too difficult to put together is it Bob?

Money changes everything Bob, even peoples morals.

[BMH]

Ah yes...Jack McKay.

#1
H&B v. McKay et al
USDC Eastern District Texas @ Texarkana, Tx.
Civil Action 5:97cv244

#2
Freidrich Waffenschmidt et al v. Jack W. Mckay jr.
USDC Northern District Mississippi
Eastern Division
Civil case # EC 83-81-WK-P

#3
Dbat Inc. v. Jack McKay
District Court, Dallas County Texas
14th Judicial District
Case No. 03-09324-A

Before you go giving this man that much credit please look up these cases. Mr. Mckay can no longer testify in court cases since everything he has stated on the record in court proceedings has proven to be false. The federal judge in Mississippi went so far as to call him a liar.

And before you go off on the Evil Empire shutting up the little man, please look up the last case. Dbat doesn't make aluminum bats, yet they had the same problems with the man. All the current testimony you see on the man are quotes from 1998...

[tommybaseball]

Ah yes...Jack McKay.

#1
H&B v. McKay et al
USDC Eastern District Texas @ Texarkana, Tx.
Civil Action 5:97cv244

#2
Freidrich Waffenschmidt et al v. Jack W. Mckay jr.
USDC Northern District Mississippi
Eastern Division
Civil case # EC 83-81-WK-P

#3
Dbat Inc. v. Jack McKay
District Court, Dallas County Texas
14th Judicial District
Case No. 03-09324-A

Before you go giving this man that much credit please look up these cases. Mr. Mckay can no longer testify in court cases since everything he has stated on the record in court proceedings has proven to be false. The federal judge in Mississippi went so far as to call him a liar.

And before you go off on the Evil Empire shutting up the little man, please look up the last case. Dbat doesn't make aluminum bats, yet they had the same problems with the man. All the current testimony you see on the man is quotes from 1998...

Fair enough and thank you for the documentation. Both sides of every issue should be looked at fairly and carefully. However, if the description of your own metal bats in various catalogues promote MORE TRAMPOLINE EFFECT and in the next sentence, at a hearing, someone has the audacity to say that a ball hit with that bat will not get to the pitcher and corner infielders faster, what else can be deduced than those metal bat representatives are taking people to be morons? With the amount of money to be made involved, what else is left to be determined than this is just another example of The Evil Empire trying to shut up the little man?

And what about physics:
In a study by physicists J.J. Crisco and R.M. Greenwald of the National Institute for Sports Science and Safety, the two professors recorded the speeds of balls batted by the average minor league hitter with metal and wood bats at up to 108.5 mph and 96.5 mph, respectively. The 0.056-second decreased reaction time with metal bats results in more injuries on balls hit back toward the pitcher.
I got that from here:

http://www.californiaaggie.com/media/storage/paper981/news/2005/02/18/Sports/Wood-Vs.Aluminum.Bats.In.College.Baseball-1319651.shtml?norewrite200610311647&sourcedomain=www.californiaaggie.com

And do you expect that people are stupid enough to believe that even if companies are somehow required by law to once again "tame their metal" as they were after The Brown Study:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/11/021120065531.htm
revealed that metal bats outperformed wood bats, that competition will not dictate those manufacturers to sneak in that extra edge eventually? To change the wording in the catalogues?
Did you guys start doing that yet?

[BMH]

As I said before I won't debate you, I was just curious. The only reason I did respond is Jack McKay was mentioned. Every time I hear his name it makes my blood boil.


The only thing I will say is I love wood bats. I am a purists when it comes to this part of the game. Nothing beats the "Crack" when a ball makes contact with an Ash bat. Then again I also believe the only true golf drivers are made from Persimmon wood:D

[Mattingly]

BMH (and others):

I'm curious, just how many wooden bats would some of the LL, JHS, HS & college teams go through on a given year?

When you say that your company "sponsors" them, does that mean free bats? Paying for other equipment (catcher's gear, uniforms, etc)?

From Louisville Slugger's Equipment page (http://www.slugger.com/./baseball/index.html), I've noticed that they make metal and "composite" bats also. Have sales diminished to the various amateur leagues because of any bans?

Also, what exactly is a "composite" bat?

Thanks.

[BMH]

Alright, first question.
I don't have an answer to that one. Hopefully one of the coaches on here can comment to that effect.

For the second.
We have three levels of sponsorship for college ball. First level, is paying the coach and free equipment. Second, is just supplying free equipment (meaning gloves, bats, catchers gear, etc...no shoes) Third, is selling to the teams at dealer price.
We've gone away from the third choice lately. Many of our dealers don't like having to compete with us. We also are trying to get away from the first choice. With companies like K2 and Nike, it's impossible to compete with the money they can throw out. Hopefully our products win the loyalty for a team to stay with us.

Third,
We have two types of composite bats. First is a wood/fiberglass reinforced bat based off the M110 and C271. It has a wood core that is encased in a fiberglass/resin shell. It is much more durable than a standard wood bat.
The other type uses a fiberglass/graphite mix to form the whole bat. I don't know much about these bats from a performance standpoint. I know the composite technology is used in our Exo Grid, Catalyst, and Nexus bats.

I have a question for some of you guys about the outlawing of metal bats. Say it does happen, what do you want to replace it? The reason I ask is Ash bats might not be around too much longer or if they are the price is going to go through the roof. The Emerald Ash Borer http://www.entm.purdue.edu/EAB/, with it's current rate of travel East we expect it in our timberlands within 10yrs. It will devastate the Ash population. Maple isn't a viable option because of weight issues. We can import Ash from Europe, but the prices will at least double on bats. So my question is what do you want to replace metal bats. Wood composites are a possible option, but then you can tweak those too.

[tommybaseball]

[QUOTE=Mattingly]BMH (and others):

I'm curious, just how many wooden bats would some of the LL, JHS, HS & college teams go through on a given year?

There are several factors to consider. First, whether or not the person ever used a wooden bat. For someone who never used a wooden bat, the breakage will initially be a costly transition. There is a significantly smaller sweet spot on a wooden bat and therefore, less room for error. Second, whether or not the person was ever taught to hit correctly by a knowledgeable teacher. Little League and High School coaches are well intentioned but very few of them know how to teach correct fundamentals. If your league decides to go to wood, one of the best investments to make is hiring a professional to hold a seminar and teach the coaches "how to teach" the kids.Third, the grade of wood that your bats are made out of. For our team, it took 3 years to get it right. After purchasing 4 dozen maple wood bats from Glomar (now called Route 66 Klubs), we only broke 6 bats the entire season. The comparison of broken wood was incredible. The majority of bats we bought the first year from retail stores, looked as if termites had gotten at them. The bats we bought from Glomar broke differently. You could see that the wood was solid throughout. There are many bat companies out there and they all offer various grades of wood. You will pay more for the better grade wood but the investment will be well worth it.

[Mattingly]

From pg 33 of the NY Daily News, a guest columnist, Steve Mandl, writes:

For City Council, it's a swing and a miss (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/473228p-398163c.html)
Sometimes, we allow tragedy to blind us to facts. Nowhere has that recently been more evident than in proposals - including one in the New York City Council - to ban metal baseball bats in order to protect high school ballplayers.
Make no mistake, although baseball is a safe sport compared with many others played in our schools, injuries can and do happen. But banning nonwood bats will do nothing to make New York high school athletes safer. In fact, two out of three documented batted-ball deaths since 2000 have occurred off the barrel of wood bats.

During a recent five-hour hearing on the subject, Councilman James Oddo, the primary sponsor of the Council bill, could not cite a single New York City or state high school baseball injury that was a result of a nonwood bat.

No wonder those closest to the game - from the Public School Athletic League to the NCAA and the National Federation of State High School Associations - oppose mandates to ban aluminum bats.

Still, a few outspoken critics claim aluminum bats are more dangerous. Lacking any other scientific evidence, they quote a 1997 study from Brown University in an attempt to show that aluminum bats hit baseballs harder than wood bats.

But today’s aluminum bats are significantly different than those used in 1997. By collegiate and nationally endorsed high school rules, aluminum bats today must meet BESR (ball exit speed ratio) certification standards. These bats are heavier, have smaller barrels and have a maximum ball exit speed of 97 mph - just like wood bats.

A look at recent NCAA records offers further proof that nonwood bats are hardly getting more dangerous. In fact, offensive numbers are down significantly. In 1998, the last season before BESR bats were introduced, Division I records were set for batting average (.306), home runs per game (1.06) and earned run average (6.12). By 2006, the Division I batting average was down to .291 and there were .68 home runs per game. ERA was 5.13. That is good baseball.

Councilman Oddo wants our kids to be safe when playing the game. Unfortunately, banning nonwood bats will do nothing to accomplish that noble goal.

Mandl has been the head baseball coach of George Washington High School in Washington Heights for more than two decades.

[CoachMJ]

i think all highschool and college should drop metla bats. they are dangerous and not true to the game. i think metal bats forces young pitchers to have to throw more pitches in a game. i think all of baseball will improve if this were so.

[Williamsburg2599]

i think all highschool and college should drop metla bats. they are dangerous and not true to the game. i think metal bats forces young pitchers to have to throw more pitches in a game. i think all of baseball will improve if this were so.
How does it force more pitches? A bat is a bat, Metal doesn't make you hit the ball more.

[CoachMJ]

How does it force more pitches? A bat is a bat, Metal doesn't make you hit the ball more.


wow. you couldnt possibly be more wrong. you think its as easy to hit with a wood bat as it is with metal? metal bats have a sweetspot roughly 2.5 times larger than a wood bat. not to mention the way metal bats are weighted and the fact that they are METAL!! i cant remember ever seeing a checkswing, with a wood bat that sent the ball into the outfield for a "hit", but i see it every weekend in metal bat leagues. the amunt of cheap flair hits and balls fouled off out of play are probably doubled even tripled with metal bats. " a bat is a bat?" tell that to the guys in the show.

[Williamsburg2599]

wow. you couldnt possibly be more wrong. you think its as easy to hit with a wood bat as it is with metal? metal bats have a sweetspot roughly 2.5 times larger than a wood bat. not to mention the way metal bats are weighted and the fact that they are METAL!! i cant remember ever seeing a checkswing, with a wood bat that sent the ball into the outfield for a "hit", but i see it every weekend in metal bat leagues. the amunt of cheap flair hits and balls fouled off out of play are probably doubled even tripled with metal bats. " a bat is a bat?" tell that to the guys in the show.
If the ball is going to make contact with the metal, it's going to be hit with a wood. Now, weather or not it increases or decreases the pitch count, I'm not sure. It would be nice if someone could post those stats.

[nystixs]

Hello,

As a player... The goal is to develop our players so they can get recruited by colleges and pro scouts.. The use of aluminium makes it difficult to judge the talent pool.. Is it safe to say that most of the players have pro dreams? So having them hit with wood will better strengthen the hitting muscles, hands & forearms, shoulders. Also, the games are more competitive.
There is definitely a danger with metal of today.. With metal, the bat bends and the ball ricochets of the bat... Wood, the ball is absorbs the impact.

The tide is turning back to ol' natural, if players are not, at least, training with wood, they will be behind the curve..

Increasing the pitch count, I don't know about that. It allows pitchers to come inside more and challenge hitters. But I agree with my fellow poster, those half swing bloopers' days are numbered.

"The path to the Pros goes through Wood"

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Anyways. It seems logical that with a metal bat, you would be able to fight off more pitches. You could also hold off and be able to take more pitches, because of the fact that you can initiate the swing later.

However, you can also hit worse pitches (inside, low and away) better. This would cause you to not take as many pitches. In addition to this, because of the lightness of the bat, you can make adjustmentson a curve ball, and hit it when, if you were using wood, you would have missed.

It depends on which of these factors are of greater influence. I have a feeling that using metal might increase pitch-count, however it wouldn't be by a drastic amount.

[jrh31584]

One of my concerns is about the cost of switching over. Will schools simply drop baseball rather than absorb the extra cost, if the cost of using wood would be greater?

[CoachMJ]

One of my concerns is about the cost of switching over. Will schools simply drop baseball rather than absorb the extra cost, if the cost of using wood would be greater?

students provide their own bats 99 percent of the time anyways. basbeall was the only highschool sport in my town that had a try-out. spots are limited and those players who do make it, really need the support of their parents in order to play. rides home form practice, baseball equipment, batting cage pratice and so on. i feel that highschool would have no problem switching over to wood and wood composite bats.

the bottom lin is that there are clearly more hits in metal bat games than in wood bat games. mor hits menas more at bats and more at bats means the pitcher is throwing more pitches. seems simple to me.

[Mattingly]

nystixs, you've got the PM feature disabled. Could you please enable this and send me a PM. There's something I'd like to speak with you about privately.

Thanks. :)

[BMH]

It would be interesting if everyone switched back to wood. Today we produce roughly 2800 bats a day in our storeline and Pro departments. Before aluminum bats in the mid 70's we had a production high of seven million in a year. It equaled out to roughly 22,000 bats a day...I'm going to need a night shift!

[CoachMJ]

It would be interesting if everyone switched back to wood. Today we produce roughly 2800 bats a day in our storeline and Pro departments. Before aluminum bats in the mid 70's we had a production high of seven million in a year. It equaled out to roughly 22,000 bats a day...I'm going to need a night shift!

i just picked up a dozen wood bats from a salesperson at LS. they were 24.50 a piece, and 10 out of the 12 have good straight wood grains. that is very reasonable.

[BMH]

One of the strategic directives for the company we are working on is getting better quality Ash. With Maple taking more of our sales we had to limit the number of places we get our timber. We closed our mill in Hancock NY, that is where we got the majority of our 3rd grade ash from. It all now comes from Aikley NY, this is where most of our Pro and #1's (minor league) come from.

Well, since we aren't getting as much Ash as before, we are now more selective in the logs we process. Since we don't have enough 3rd grade timber available we are having the Mills grade down a lot of the wood to fill the needs of our production. Meaning a lot of the #1's we used to get our now considered 3rd grade which is what most people buy in stores. So the quality of our Ash will be getting much better when you go shopping for bats in stores.

[CoachMJ]

One of the strategic directives for the company we are working on is getting better quality Ash. With Maple taking more of our sales we had to limit the number of places we get our timber. We closed our mill in Hancock NY, that is where we got the majority of our 3rd grade ash from. It all now comes from Aikley NY, this is where most of our Pro and #1's (minor league) come from.

Well, since we aren't getting as much Ash as before, we are now more selective in the logs we process. Since we don't have enough 3rd grade timber available we are having the Mills grade down a lot of the wood to fill the needs of our production. Meaning a lot of the #1's we used to get our now considered 3rd grade which is what most people buy in stores. So the quality of our Ash will be getting much better when you go shopping for bats in stores.


what does the 125, in the logo, mean?

[BMH]

It used to signify ballplayer timber. 180 and 80 were used for storeline bats. Now it's been consolidated into a one brand fits all type.

Another thing to consider about metal vs. wood is the metal bats are larger in diameter allowing for a greater hitting surface. The biggest wood bat we make today has a barrel of only 2.640, much smaller than the 2.75 of most the metal bats. Our more popular modes such as the C271 and M110 only have a 2.5in barrel.

[TCAZ]

To answer your question; I have a yellow birch bat that doesn't appear to
have any obvious shortcomings although it has an above average number of seam dents. What is quality and quanity of the supply of sap wood in Y-birch like?
I had not heard of the EAB. I know in New England a lot of the stock of Ash located in the 'burbs is diseasing from something.
I guess maple could dominate but +3 bats would be common in the amatuers.
...Sort of like the '50s?????

In terms of limiting performance of Aluminum; What if the barrels were limited to 2 9/16", and wall thickness and CM was kept into check so as to take advantage of the durability but bring performance more in line with wood.

The



BTW someone mentioned very early in this thread that Massachusetts had already made Aluminum illegal. While it's a very Mass. like thing to do, its untrue.
It was experimented for one season at the High School level and considered a failure. I heard breakage as a common complaint.
Yet, the Greater Boston League conference is still wood only and have no plans to return to metal.


Alright, first question.
I don't have an answer to that one. Hopefully one of the coaches on here can comment to that effect.

For the second.
We have three levels of sponsorship for college ball. First level, is paying the coach and free equipment. Second, is just supplying free equipment (meaning gloves, bats, catchers gear, etc...no shoes) Third, is selling to the teams at dealer price.
We've gone away from the third choice lately. Many of our dealers don't like having to compete with us. We also are trying to get away from the first choice. With companies like K2 and Nike, it's impossible to compete with the money they can throw out. Hopefully our products win the loyalty for a team to stay with us.

Third,
We have two types of composite bats. First is a wood/fiberglass reinforced bat based off the M110 and C271. It has a wood core that is encased in a fiberglass/resin shell. It is much more durable than a standard wood bat.
The other type uses a fiberglass/graphite mix to form the whole bat. I don't know much about these bats from a performance standpoint. I know the composite technology is used in our Exo Grid, Catalyst, and Nexus bats.

I have a question for some of you guys about the outlawing of metal bats. Say it does happen, what do you want to replace it? The reason I ask is Ash bats might not be around too much longer or if they are the price is going to go through the roof. The Emerald Ash Borer http://www.entm.purdue.edu/EAB/, with it's current rate of travel East we expect it in our timberlands within 10yrs. It will devastate the Ash population. Maple isn't a viable option because of weight issues. We can import Ash from Europe, but the prices will at least double on bats. So my question is what do you want to replace metal bats. Wood composites are a possible option, but then you can tweak those too.

[hellborn]

It used to signify ballplayer timber. 180 and 80 were used for storeline bats. Now it's been consolidated into a one brand fits all type.

Another thing to consider about metal vs. wood is the metal bats are larger in diameter allowing for a greater hitting surface. The biggest wood bat we make today has a barrel of only 2.640, much smaller than the 2.75 of most the metal bats. Our more popular modes such as the C271 and M110 only have a 2.5in barrel.

I remember 9 grade bats, also...seem to remember that they were usually black barrels with natural handles?? I think that I broke all the ones I had...
Is the M9 maple labelling a continuation of the old 9 grade?

[hellborn]

One of the strategic directives for the company we are working on is getting better quality Ash. With Maple taking more of our sales we had to limit the number of places we get our timber. We closed our mill in Hancock NY, that is where we got the majority of our 3rd grade ash from. It all now comes from Aikley NY, this is where most of our Pro and #1's (minor league) come from.

Well, since we aren't getting as much Ash as before, we are now more selective in the logs we process. Since we don't have enough 3rd grade timber available we are having the Mills grade down a lot of the wood to fill the needs of our production. Meaning a lot of the #1's we used to get our now considered 3rd grade which is what most people buy in stores. So the quality of our Ash will be getting much better when you go shopping for bats in stores.

Well, maybe this explains that red C271 ash I picked up a few months ago and was raving about before on BBF...best wood bat I've ever owned. Just a really dynamite feel in use. Puts my previous favorite bats to shame. I'm actually not a huge fan of the C271 model, but I love this one despite that.
I'll have to store it in a big Ziploc bag to keep those borers away from it...:ughh

[CoachMJ]

wait so all the louisvilel with black barrels and natural handles are grade 9???

[hellborn]

wait so all the louisvilel with black barrels and natural handles are grade 9???
Nope, I wasn't saying that, CMJ...just that, way back in the pre-maple days, I bought a few relatively cheap LS ash bats that had a "9" in the label instead of a "125" (high grade bat) or a "180" (another low grade bat), and I think all of these bats had black barrels and natural handles. I think that the 180 might be obsolete now...I was just wondering if the "M9" maple labelling derived from the old ash "9" grade somehow. I remember that a couple of my "9" bats were quite lively, but they all tended to be light with tight grain and were not especially durable.
Sorry to be confusing!

[CoachMJ]

Nope, I wasn't saying that, CMJ...just that, way back in the pre-maple days, I bought a few relatively cheap LS ash bats that had a "9" in the label instead of a "125" (high grade bat) or a "180" (another low grade bat), and I think all of these bats had black barrels and natural handles. I think that the 180 might be obsolete now...I was just wondering if the "M9" maple labelling derived from the old ash "9" grade somehow. I remember that a couple of my "9" bats were quite lively, but they all tended to be light with tight grain and were not especially durable.
Sorry to be confusing!


oh ok good. cuz i just got a dozen bats shipped to me form LS vblack barrel natural handle. C271 and the 141 also. pheew.

[BMH]

The 9 center brand stands for 9AS. Our cheapest model we make. My brother (production scheduler) calls them our $10 bat. Then again it depends on what wood we have in house. If we don't have the 3 grade we will burn up #1's and Beech to fill the orders which in turn gives a better bat to the customer.

[metropop]

On another thread I posted about how much metal/alluminum bats cost these days saying that the bat makers have nearly priced themselves into a corner. A good alluminum bat will start at $200 and there are a handful of these bats that sell for $300+.

If you can buy wood bats in bulk for nearly $35-40 per, it seems from a cost stand point you could pick up 5/1, allowing for breakage. It all comes down to the $$$$, but it would sure be nice to watch college and high school go to wood. I bet the scouts would appreciate it. :)

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

BMH, is it possible to go back to wood? I would love it, as many others here would, but there are two things you said that make one wonder if it is even possible. One was this:
It would be interesting if everyone switched back to wood. Today we produce roughly 2800 bats a day in our storeline and Pro departments. Before aluminum bats in the mid 70's we had a production high of seven million in a year. It equaled out to roughly 22,000 bats a day...I'm going to need a night shift!
And the other:
I have a question for some of you guys about the outlawing of metal bats. Say it does happen, what do you want to replace it? The reason I ask is Ash bats might not be around too much longer or if they are the price is going to go through the roof. The Emerald Ash Borer http://www.entm.purdue.edu/EAB/, with it's current rate of travel East we expect it in our timberlands within 10yrs. It will devastate the Ash population. Maple isn't a viable option because of weight issues. We can import Ash from Europe, but the prices will at least double on bats.

These two pieces of information being taken into consideration, is it even possible for baseball to go back to wood, without the price of wood bats skyrocketing?

[BMH]

There is always a way :)

My uncle who owns the company is (for no better word coming to mind) in love wood bat manufacturing. He has always had a fascination with making wood bats all of his life. He says we aren't in business to make money, but for the continuation of the company.

We've automated a lot of the processes in making wood bats here of late which has helped to speed up the process a lot in recent years. We also found different wood suppliers around the world (literally, our Beech is from Europe), so it might costs us more but we will continue to make wood bats. Ash is still here and hopefully will still be here for a long time. The National Forestry Service is working on ways of eradicating that pesky little bug.

There are dozens of companies making wood bats now. To stay where we are we will have to be less expensive and be more responsive to our customers which in turn will hopefully keep costs lower for you.

[jrh31584]

On another thread I posted about how much metal/alluminum bats cost these days saying that the bat makers have nearly priced themselves into a corner. A good alluminum bat will start at $200 and there are a handful of these bats that sell for $300+.

If you can buy wood bats in bulk for nearly $35-40 per, it seems from a cost stand point you could pick up 5/1, allowing for breakage. It all comes down to the $$$$, but it would sure be nice to watch college and high school go to wood. I bet the scouts would appreciate it. :)

About how many bats per season would high school players go through, especially given that most of them likely have little experience with wood?

[Seattle1]

That's good baseball was meant to be played with wooden bats not metal bats.

[Captain Cold Nose]

That's good baseball was meant to be played with wooden bats not metal bats.

it must be nice to live in a world where practicality has no place.

[Seattle1]

it must be nice to live in a world where practicality has no place.

Huh? :confused:

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I must admit that using wood for bats is a waste of resources... But it is awfully nice to hear and feel the crack of the bat.

[CoachMJ]

it must be nice to live in a world where practicality has no place.


youre right metal is the best. dead little leaguers and a college system full of kids who cant hit in the big leagues is much better.

[The Kid]

I like wood bats cause of the feel. The other reason we should ban metal is because two little leagers have been killed by them.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

For practicality's sake, I think that it's safe to say that Metal bats are here to stay. I would love to see wood bats come back into favour, but I don't think that it will happen.

[CarmelPitcher]

thats stupid. Im assuming the kid was a pitcher, and even if wood WAS being used, a hard liner will still be in your face faster than you can react. Its just a chance you take playing baseball and pitching. Especially at that level. It happens. I have had many close encounters while pitching. $#!+ happens--Forrest Gump

[CarmelPitcher]

i just thought of another thing. if a wood bat breaks, and i mean REALLY breaks, a lot of times, the barrel goes flying into the field and become a danger to the players, while metal bats dont break. this flying barrel could be even more dangerous b/c players are busy looking for the ball, not an incoming barrel.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I agree. Who's to say that it was a metal bat that did it. Had the batter been using wood, the pitcher may still have died. No one knows.

[CarmelPitcher]

I agree. Who's to say that it was a metal bat that did it. Had the batter been using wood, the pitcher may still have died. No one knows.
exactly. a pitcher doesnt have time to react to a hard shot like that, regardless of bat type.

[jpmbaseball35]

I am 15 and play competitived baseball and i think that using a wood bat will bring out the best of the best in hitters. Anyone can hit a baseball 300+ feet today with these juiced up metal bats. I personaly have an EXO and a hit off the handle can easily turn into a single and when i really connect i can easily hit a ball 360 feet. However the use of a wood bat signifies who can really swing a bat and take it to all fields vs. hitter who gets up to hit a 6 run home run. Dont you find it a little ridicuolos when you see a hitter hitting .700? In the winter I only train with a wood bat becuase if you can hit with well with as wood bat you can hit with a metal? People say theres such a harm using metal bats but are wood that much better? I broken wood bat can be a 2 pound dagger flying at a 3rd basemen! How much safer is that? I would agree with using the BAUM composite bats that cant break and hit like wood. But if there is such a change all of america must change becuase when it comes to college recuting a scout can see a hitter who hits .350 with a wood bat vs. a kid who hits .650 (a sure possiblity in these days)

[SweetLou]

Montana is not the only spot of a batted ball injury due to a metal bat. A kid was recently severely hurt in South Jersey, and New Jersey is considering banning metal bats as well. I'm sure that this has had some impact on the New York proceedings. My question is: Does New York have state championships? If the city bans metal bats, what will happen when city schools play out of city schools?

[mike28nc]

I have heard that NC is talking about going to wood bats. If they do I will be buying my 12 old what is called metal bat. The handle is metal but has wood head. they still are -5 or -3 weight. You dont get the broken bat (wood) or the excessive pop (metal). I have been putting off getting my son one because he keeps growing. No need to buy one and then next year he has to get a new one. In the cage he swings -5 wood or -5 practice bat.


http://www.metalwoodbats.com/discover/lineup.aspx


Mike

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I have heard that NC is talking about going to wood bats. If they do I will be buying my 12 old what is called metal bat. The handle is metal but has wood head. they still are -5 or -3 weight. You dont get the broken bat (wood) or the excessive pop (metal). I have been putting off getting my son one because he keeps growing. No need to buy one and then next year he has to get a new one. In the cage he swings -5 wood or -5 practice bat.

MikeI've heard good things about them. Never used one, but I've heard they're good.

If you have any questions at all about wood bats, I would ask BMH, in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41368). He works at Louisville Slugger. Very informed and knowledgable fellow.

Welcome to the site!
-Geoff

[Centerfielder2]

wow. you couldnt possibly be more wrong. you think its as easy to hit with a wood bat as it is with metal? metal bats have a sweetspot roughly 2.5 times larger than a wood bat. not to mention the way metal bats are weighted and the fact that they are METAL!! i cant remember ever seeing a checkswing, with a wood bat that sent the ball into the outfield for a "hit", but i see it every weekend in metal bat leagues. the amunt of cheap flair hits and balls fouled off out of play are probably doubled even tripled with metal bats. " a bat is a bat?" tell that to the guys in the show.


I 100% agree thts why kids by wood to hit with in practice is to changelle themselves more

and iwas wondering if this "ban" is only for varsity
or would it be for jv too ?

[BMH]

I 100% agree thts why kids by wood to hit with in practice is to changelle themselves more

and iwas wondering if this "ban" is only for varsity
or would it be for jv too ?

We are in the process of making sample composite wood bats for little league for leagues in NY and NJ.

We made two dozen last month and the response from leagues in NJ were positive so they want to test more. Hopefully it will go over well.

[BMH]

This is from an email I received from one of our reps in the Northeast.

Gentlemen:

I just wanted to let you know that I received a wood bat order from Efingers Team Dept. for a rec league. He ordered 10 doz. youth wood baseball bats and then he wanted to give me an order for 12/26, 12/27, 24/28, 24/29, 12/30 & 12/31's in wood softball for girls. I advised the team buyer that we don't make those sizes in softball bats. It looks like the leagues are switching over on their own.

Looks like I'll be making some softball bats in the next couple of weeks! That shouldn't be all that hard I just designed a very nice one on our CNC lathe for a Taiwan company. The bat has a great balance to it.

I know many of you are against aluminum and for the most part I agree because I believe baseball should be played with wood. If more and more leagues switch then the companies that produce bats will follow suit. Just like when aluminum was introduced, we didn't want to make them, but we did because the customer wanted it.

[ironman]

youre right metal is the best. dead little leaguers and a college system full of kids who cant hit in the big leagues is much better.

actually, there is no proof that the metal is what killed him. And for the college system of kids who can't hit bigleague-pitching, that is bogus. Bill James wrote an article on how everyone thought it was going to make college produced hitters that weren't able to hit in the majors. In fact, this was not true at all. the talent actually got better from college, after they started using the metal bats. and if you think about it, it really has, now that they have to use -3 bats.

[gwtrojan]

The players would love to go to wood bats, that's real baseball, no doubt. The question is, if they switch to wood, who is going to pay for all of those bats? Programs with little to no money have no resources to replace the numerous bats that would be busted while playing.

What's the difference between a ball flying off a metal bat or a piece of a broken wood bat hitting a player? Niether is inherently more dangerous than the other, one just costs a heck of a lot more.

[Monarch]

tommybaseball makes a great point! Amen!

[Monarch]

About how many bats per season would high school players go through, especially given that most of them likely have little experience with wood?

Actually, you would be surprised at how many high school age kids are already swinging wood. Either in practice or in wood bat tournaments. Wood bats have already infiltrated into the high school age kids. Let's face it. Most high school ballplayers want to play professionally and they know the only way they can do that is to learn to hit with wood.

[Mattingly]

I'm having troubles finding a link, but the NYC Council was hearing arguments on this issue. A father said that his pitcher son got hit by a comebacker because the kid he'd thrown to had an aluminum bat in his hand.

Ex Mets closer John Franco also chimed in that he'd felt that wooden bats were safer. I figure that within the week, we'll have a vote. Hopefully, the local websites will provide links.

Oh, here's one from SI.com:

NYC council to vote on metal bat ban (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/03/12/newyork.metal.ap/)
NEW YORK (AP) -- New York's City Council is considering a ban on metal bats, with former New York Mets reliever John Franco testifying Monday in support of the proposal.

Franco and the bill's supporters say metal bats hit balls faster and harder.

"I'm speaking from someone who was standing on the mound for 22 years, and I can see the difference," Franco told a council committee on Monday. "And while I'm standing in the stands watching my son play, or some of the other Little Leaguers, I can see the difference."

From the Times:

Council Moves Toward Ban on Metal High School Bats (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/nyregion/13bat.html?em&ex=1173931200&en=9c2aff6288cc7285&ei=5087%0A)
New York City would become one of the first cities in the country to prohibit the use of metal bats in high school baseball games, under a bill that a City Council committee approved yesterday and that the full Council is considered all but certain to pass tomorrow.

The issue has sharply divided youth baseball leagues, coaches, players and fans. Industry groups have hired lobbying and public relations firms to oppose the bill, while parents of players severely injured by balls hit off metal bats have given tearful testimony in support of it.

Even players from Major League Baseball, which uses only wood bats, have taken positions: Mike Mussina, a Yankees pitcher, is against the ban; John Franco, a former Mets pitcher, is for it.

The Council’s Youth Services Committee approved the bill on a 4-to-0 vote. The bill has 32 sponsors and the support of the Council speaker, Christine C. Quinn. They would need 34 votes, two-thirds of the 51 members on the Council, to override a veto by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg.

“The mayor has some skepticism both about whether this bill fixes the problem it says it does and whether this is something the government should be doing,” a mayoral spokesman, Stu Loeser, said yesterday. “He has made no decision about a veto.”

[Williamsburg2599]

Here is the proposed bill:
http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/textfiles/Int%200341-2006.htm?CFID=2126510&CFTOKEN=53360832

[Mattingly]

Barring a veto by Mayor Bloomberg, the metal bats are history:

City Council Bans Metal Bats, Trans Fats (http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=67662)
Lawmakers approved a bill Wednesday that will ban metal bats from high school baseball games.

The full City Council approved the bill that was unanimously approved by a committee Monday.

Supporters of the bill say aluminum bats are a safety hazard and could cause serious injury. But others say there's no evidence to prove metal bats are more dangerous than wooden ones.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg has also expressed skepticism, saying a ban may not improve safety for students on the field. He has not said whether he'll veto the bill, but he says he plans to consider all arguments before making a decision.

"I have been called by professional baseball players who are friends of mine on both sides of the issue and I'll look at the data and try to decide whether or not it's an appropriate thing for the city to do, to get involved and if so, what the science says."

But even if he does veto the bill, Council Speaker Christine Quinn says supporters have the votes they need to override it.

[tommybaseball]

Barring corruption in the filthy world of politics where money talks, it's about time that this happened:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/nyregion/14cnd-bats.html?hp

I just love the soundbites from all of the coaches who get their palms greased by the bat companies and the "poor" highschool players who went out and spent $300.00 on those bs missile launchers. Gee, it's a shame that you're going to have to learn how to really hit without a Fred Flintstone sweetspot!

Here's the next play to watch out for if this sticks - the schools buy a boatload of cheap bats that termites wouldn't even touch, break them all and then cry that they have nothing left to play baseball with. I can just see Modells sponsoring this dog and pony show with the crap bats that they sell.

The smart bat companies will convince the schools to invest in quality wood bats - and cut them a deal.

The smart schools will pool their resources together and buy bats from the same company(s). If the bats turn out to be garbage, they move on and try someone else the next year.
As I stated in an earlier post, It took our team 3 years before we got it right. We went from breaking nearly 6 dozen bats the first year, to a total of 6 bats the third year. We bought our bats from a company called Glomar (now called Route 66 Klubs).

There should be enough to go around for all of the honest wood bat companies. Everyone should be able to make out all right, and that goes especially for the players. The batters will be forced to become better hitters and the pitchers injury risk factor will go down.
It's great to get back to real baseball. Let the bidding begin!

[Mattingly]

Hizzoner on deck: Says he'll veto aluminum bat ban (http://nydailynews.com/news/2007/04/03/2007-04-03_hizzoner_on_deck_says_hell_veto_aluminum-2.html)
Mayor Bloomberg said yesterday he will veto legislation banning aluminum bats in city high schools, knocking the controversial issue back to City Council for an expected override.

"I don't think that it's the city's business to regulate that," Bloomberg said.

The bill's supporters say aluminum bats are significantly more dangerous than wooden bats because balls come off them much faster and harder.

Opponents say there's no credible scientific evidence showing a difference between wood and aluminum bats.

"I don't know whether aluminum bats are more dangerous or less dangerous," Bloomberg said. "I've had friends, who are professional baseball players, call me and argue both ways."

Last month, the City Council approved the bill, 40 to 6, and Speaker Christine Quinn (D-Manhattan) pledged to override any mayoral veto.

The bill needs 34 votes to override the veto.

[Pete Rose Rounding Third]

I like how Bloomberg didn't think it was the city's role to regulate that sort of thing. As we all know, Bloomberg has consistently avoided signing any sort of petty, intrusive legislation.

[Mattingly]

I like how Bloomberg didn't think it was the city's role to regulate that sort of thing. As we all know, Bloomberg has consistently avoided signing any sort of petty, intrusive legislation.
So long as said legislation is baseball-related, please feel free to discuss them. If they involve housing, the various city unions (NYPD, FDNY, teachers, sanit, NYCTA, etc), please avoid them here.

[Monarch]

Barring corruption in the filthy world of politics where money talks, it's about time that this happened:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/nyregion/14cnd-bats.html?hp

I just love the soundbites from all of the coaches who get their palms greased by the bat companies and the "poor" highschool players who went out and spent $300.00 on those bs missile launchers. Gee, it's a shame that you're going to have to learn how to really hit without a Fred Flintstone sweetspot!

Here's the next play to watch out for if this sticks - the schools buy a boatload of cheap bats that termites wouldn't even touch, break them all and then cry that they have nothing left to play baseball with. I can just see Modells sponsoring this dog and pony show with the crap bats that they sell.

The smart bat companies will convince the schools to invest in quality wood bats - and cut them a deal.

The smart schools will pool their resources together and buy bats from the same company(s). If the bats turn out to be garbage, they move on and try someone else the next year.
As I stated in an earlier post, It took our team 3 years before we got it right. We went from breaking nearly 6 dozen bats the first year, to a total of 6 bats the third year. We bought our bats from a company called Glomar (now called Route 66 Klubs).

There should be enough to go around for all of the honest wood bat companies. Everyone should be able to make out all right, and that goes especially for the players. The batters will be forced to become better hitters and the pitchers injury risk factor will go down.
It's great to get back to real baseball. Let the bidding begin!

The coaches are going to do their research, but they are going to have to look for deals, too. It has been my experience that high school baseball takes a backseat to football and basketball. Limited budgets are always tough.

I have followed this from afar, but with great interest. You see, I offer wood bats through my website at www.justwoodbats.com. I have a vested interest, but no politics from my side. People are going to buy their bats where they want, and I am just one of many options available.

On to the quote above. I found one thing of great interest. Tommybaseball stated that it took them three years to find the right bat. Maybe it took three years to learn how to hit with a wood bat. Nothing against Glomar or Route 66 Klubs, but I bet that you and your players have improved as hitters as well. I would venture to guess that it is a combination of both, without knowing what bats you were using previously.

I wish all the NY high school ball players and coaches the best of luck. The game will change with wood, but you will be a better player because of it.

[tommybaseball]

The coaches are going to do their research, but they are going to have to look for deals, too. It has been my experience that high school baseball takes a backseat to football and basketball. Limited budgets are always tough.

I have followed this from afar, but with great interest. You see, I offer wood bats through my website at www.justwoodbats.com. I have a vested interest, but no politics from my side. People are going to buy their bats where they want, and I am just one of many options available.

On to the quote above. I found one thing of great interest. Tommybaseball stated that it took them three years to find the right bat. Maybe it took three years to learn how to hit with a wood bat. Nothing against Glomar or Route 66 Klubs, but I bet that you and your players have improved as hitters as well. I would venture to guess that it is a combination of both, without knowing what bats you were using previously.

I wish all the NY high school ball players and coaches the best of luck. The game will change with wood, but you will be a better player because of it.


Very fair point about the hitters improving over time but I would definitely say a combination of both. I hired a professional instructor who had worked in the Florida Marlins organization at the time who worked with our kids every Saturday for 10 weeks during the winter. There is no doubt that this contributed to their improved performance as well as less breakage. Lazaro, our instructor, spent a lot of time teaching the kids how to hit pitches in different parts of the strike zone. On the other hand, I know what I saw when the bats broke. The bats were far less dense and more "splintery" at the point of breakage.
I did speak to several bat companies and they all told me the same thing, that there are various "grades" of wood and that the retail stores get the lowest grade. I imagine that is the main reason why Modell's and The Sports Authority were selling the Louisville Slugger and Rawlings bats for $19.99 at the time. I ended up with GLOMAR at the time simply because they offered the best deal.
I would like to point out an incident during a tournament in the GARDEN STATE AMATEUR BASEBALL LEAGUE a few summers ago where the opposing team ran out of bats in a game against us. The coach asked me I would sell him one of our bats. It just so happened that one of our players had broken a GLOMAR bat in the first game and I asked the coach to show me one of his broken bats. When I pointed out the difference in the wood, he was amazed at the difference.
One other thing. It has been my recent experience that although well intentioned, most high school coaches have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to instruction. My son's JV coach last year actually told the kids who were using wood bats in practice, "I don't know why all of you kids are starting to use wood bats. I don't buy into the idea that it's going to make you a better hitter. That's just not true. You still have to hit the ball" Well, professionals who know what they're talking about beg to differ.

[pauliedanger]

Why hasn't anyone said, "Hey, let's tell metal bat makers to dumb down their sticks so they mimic wood?"

I mean, if they can dial-up the "trampoline effect" they can dial it down.

And has anyone considered moving back the mound? Would it be that much of a stretch to put high school kids on a college size field?

Just some alternative ideas.

[tommybaseball]

Why hasn't anyone said, "Hey, let's tell metal bat makers to dumb down their sticks so they mimic wood?"

I mean, if they can dial-up the "trampoline effect" they can dial it down.

And has anyone considered moving back the mound? Would it be that much of a stretch to put high school kids on a college size field?

Just some alternative ideas.

They wouldn't be able to justify charging upwards of $300.00 for them. There's lots of money involved and therein lies the problem. It's funny that they claim that their product is safe, yet the very description of their "weapons" claim to add distance. It's ridiculous. Do they just add distance after the ball passes the pitchers mound and corner infielders? The arrogance of the parents whose children do not pitch is beyond belief. It doesn't affect their kids safety so it's not their concern.

High school and college pitching mounds are the same distance. I would not tinker with the game. Sixty feet, six inches from the plate to the mound and ninety feet between the bases may be the closest man has ever come to achieving perfection. I forget who said that but I agree. Of course, there's Salma Hayek to consider as well.

[Monarch]

Very fair point about the hitters improving over time but I would definitely say a combination of both. I hired a professional instructor who had worked in the Florida Marlins organization at the time who worked with our kids every Saturday for 10 weeks during the winter. There is no doubt that this contributed to their improved performance as well as less breakage. Lazaro, our instructor, spent a lot of time teaching the kids how to hit pitches in different parts of the strike zone. On the other hand, I know what I saw when the bats broke. The bats were far less dense and more "splintery" at the point of breakage.
I did speak to several bat companies and they all told me the same thing, that there are various "grades" of wood and that the retail stores get the lowest grade. I imagine that is the main reason why Modell's and The Sports Authority were selling the Louisville Slugger and Rawlings bats for $19.99 at the time. I ended up with GLOMAR at the time simply because they offered the best deal.
I would like to point out an incident during a tournament in the GARDEN STATE AMATEUR BASEBALL LEAGUE a few summers ago where the opposing team ran out of bats in a game against us. The coach asked me I would sell him one of our bats. It just so happened that one of our players had broken a GLOMAR bat in the first game and I asked the coach to show me one of his broken bats. When I pointed out the difference in the wood, he was amazed at the difference.
One other thing. It has been my recent experience that although well intentioned, most high school coaches have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to instruction. My son's JV coach last year actually told the kids who were using wood bats in practice, "I don't know why all of you kids are starting to use wood bats. I don't buy into the idea that it's going to make you a better hitter. That's just not true. You still have to hit the ball" Well, professionals who know what they're talking about beg to differ.

Very true about the bat manufacturers. Some are better than others and I have tried A LOT of them. Louisville Slugger offers several different grades of wood, whether you are purchasing ash or maple. Also, each company has a variation on the same model. For example, the Louisville Slugger model 271 is the most popular model sold. Well, I have a 271 from several different companies and no two are alike. They all feel a little different. Yes, I have my favorite companies, but it depends on the model of bat.

Now you know why Albert Pujols prefers a natural colored bat. So he can see the grains and the quality of wood.

Also, I cannot disagree with you about the coaches. My senior year of high school, my high school thought it would be wise to hire the basketball coach to coach the varsity baseball team. He didn't know the first thing about fundamental baseball. Believe me, I have heard some dandy lines come from coaches. It's at it's worst at the youth recreation level. I spent the better part of 10 years coaching baseball at various levels from 5 year olds playing t-ball to college and now the MSBL.

[aj9020]

I think all of us would agree that most kids have dreams of playing pro ball.. Growing up in NY I hit with wood all through little league and college. There is no strength gain for the player in the aluminum bat game. Dialing down the aluminum? We are to far from the companies doing that i think. I agree they couldn't charge $300 plus. If they would have stayed with the aluminum that was used during 80's, old Black Magic and green label Easton.

The question is the quality of the wood available.. As you all know, what's in the stores are not in the pros.. LS has the 1XX Timber, which is pro wood at $79 and up.. But in stores, the wood available is not the same at $59. But there is a company in our area who makes bats. It's worth checking out.. I bought one and the quality is that of pros. Do a google search on NYSTIXS.

Jake

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I've heard of them too, and I've talked to Andre. I plan on ordering one up if (read: when :ughh) I break the Akadema I'm swinging now.

[aj9020]

Sonunds good. I've been playing ball for a long time.. The nystixs guy took a lot of time to answer questions and make solid suggestions on models.. I've been to his shop.. trust me, he can turn any bat model you want. and he made a bat while I was there and it took a couple minutes and it was done.. the wood was top quality, you can really see and smell:coffee the difference.

NYC coaches check him out.. Great prices too.

[Mattingly]

Mayor Bloomberg's veto was overridden earlier this week, so the ban remains.

New York City Council Bans Aluminum Bats (http://wjz.com/local/local_story_113221849.html)
(WJZ) BALTIMORE New York City Council overwhelmingly approved the aluminum bat ban in spite of a veto by Mayor Bloomberg. Parents we talked to in Maryland don't see the same kind of reaction here.

Starting in September, high school baseball players in New York City can't use aluminum bats. New York's City Council voted 41-4 to override a mayoral veto based on a theory that metal bats produce too much velocity and increase the risk of player injuries.

"The placement of the impact and the timing was so it sent my son into cardiac arrest. He died on the field," said Joseph Domalewski.

A similar ban is under consideration in New Jersey, but opponents argue there is no evidence metal bats pose any danger.

"The data shows that non-wood bats are as safe, if not safer than, wood bats. And the fact of the matter is the same injuries can happen with both."

At this stage, there is no indication Maryland athletic officials are considering a metal bat ban. Parents tell Eyewitness News there's no need for one.

At a game between Woodlawn and Milford Mill High Schools, parents don't agree with New York's decision for several reasons.

"I think it's a bad idea if you want to ban 'em in high school. I think you might want to start on the college level. I think if you want to ban something like that, it needs to go over and beyond high school," said Gary Hawkins.

"They are aluminum. They can be more dangerous, especially if kids go swinging them around, but that's with any bat. There's the economic reason, too. Aluminum bats don't break; they last a lot longer," said Calvin McMichael.

The New York ban won't go into effect without a fight. Opponents are already planning a legal challenge.

[aj9020]

You can tell things are changing here in the US. When opponents/corporations have the (you know) to think that they can bring legal proceedings to overturn a local government "democratic" (big gulp) vote and think they have a chance on winning..

[BMH]

I haven't heard too much grumbling from our sales reps about the ruling yet. I don't believe we're even going to participate in fighting it. The only reason I'm upset is we now have to make more wood bats and I'm already behind schedule! We've started a second shift because of the increased forecast in store line sales (thank you NY), Mother's day, and Bat day orders for stadiums. Interesting times in the old bat factory...

[tommybaseball]

And another METAL BAT INJURY for the record books! Fractured skull, substantial bleeding and swelling of the brain.
If this was your kid:
http://www.boston.com/sports/schools/baseball/articles/2007/04/28/give_metal_bats_the_heave_ho/

the latest casualty, do you think you might be a little ticked off, with the information that's been out there?

Did anyone listen to the Nationally Syndicated Radio Program yesterday morning, THE SPORTS EDGE, on WFAN? Rick Wolff, the host and Councilman Jim Oddo revealed that previous inadmissable court information has been released from one of the major bat companies in regard to the "game" they are playing. It goes something like this: "They make their move, we make ours."

Councilman Oddo also revealed that he anticipates a law suit from the bat companies. I'm trying to get a transcript to share the info.

For the parents who have sons that pitch, the "close calls" do not become stats. Are you continually going to stare with your jaw open and say "Whew, that was close"?

If you bought a house in area where the sellers knew the water was contaminated, but held back the info and your family got cancer-
Or, as has been revealed by HBO's Bryant Gumbel in REAL SPORTS:
http://www.hbo.com/realsports/stories/2006/episode.111.s1.html

tied in with the NEW SOURCE REVIEW (just google it and open your eyes wide) scandal, you move into an area where your kids develop asthma or other lung ailments because factories miles away have not been forced to adhere to EPA rules - and You Didn't Know what They Knew.
It all boils down to this:
They all know that what they are doing is harmful and potentially lethal.
They all know they can get away with it because IT'S BIG BUSINESS.

Take your (bleeping) heads out of the sand and speak up.
They will continue to get away with it unless more people speak up.

By the way. In an RBI (Reviving Baseball in The Inner Cities- Sponsored by MLB) doubleheader yesterday afternoon, The Kips Bay Boys and Girls Club of New York took 2 games from their opponent, OLS. Kips Bay used wood bats while OLS used metal.
Zero broken bats in the doubleheader.

[aj9020]

Is there anything on the net about the Kips Bay doubleheader? Your talking about Kips Bay from Brooklyn, right?

[Mattingly]

Is there anything on the net about the Kips Bay doubleheader? Your talking about Kips Bay from Brooklyn, right?
I've never heard of any Kips Bay in Brooklyn. Kips Bay is an area of Manhattan in the East 50s.

http://www.kipsbay.org/

Kips Bay Boys & Girls Club
32 East 57th Street Lbby
New York, NY 10022
(212) 755-5733

[TG Coach]

And another METAL BAT INJURY for the record books! Fractured skull, substantial bleeding and swelling of the brain.
If this was your kid:
http://www.boston.com/sports/schools/baseball/articles/2007/04/28/give_metal_bats_the_heave_ho/

the latest casualty, do you think you might be a little ticked off, with the information that's been out there?

Did anyone listen to the Nationally Syndicated Radio Program yesterday morning, THE SPORTS EDGE, on WFAN? Rick Wolff, the host and Councilman Jim Oddo revealed that previous inadmissable court information has been released from one of the major bat companies in regard to the "game" they are playing. It goes something like this: "They make their move, we make ours."

Councilman Oddo also revealed that he anticipates a law suit from the bat companies. I'm trying to get a transcript to share the info.

For the parents who have sons that pitch, the "close calls" do not become stats. Are you continually going to stare with your jaw open and say "Whew, that was close"?

If you bought a house in area where the sellers knew the water was contaminated, but held back the info and your family got cancer-
Or, as has been revealed by HBO's Bryant Gumbel in REAL SPORTS:
http://www.hbo.com/realsports/stories/2006/episode.111.s1.html

tied in with the NEW SOURCE REVIEW (just google it and open your eyes wide) scandal, you move into an area where your kids develop asthma or other lung ailments because factories miles away have not been forced to adhere to EPA rules - and You Didn't Know what They Knew.
It all boils down to this:
They all know that what they are doing is harmful and potentially lethal.
They all know they can get away with it because IT'S BIG BUSINESS.

Take your (bleeping) heads out of the sand and speak up.
They will continue to get away with it unless more people speak up.

By the way. In an RBI (Reviving Baseball in The Inner Cities- Sponsored by MLB) doubleheader yesterday afternoon, The Kips Bay Boys and Girls Club of New York took 2 games from their opponent, OLS. Kips Bay used wood bats while OLS used metal.
Zero broken bats in the doubleheader.

What evidence do you have this injury would have been avoided with a wood bat? My son pitches 14U travel which has some good size hitters who hit rockets. There are certain risks associated with playing sports. I've already watched my son get his head kicked and a knee in the neck (same play) making a head first save in soccer and lay motionless for what seemed like a long time. He's been smacked head over heels into a wall trying to score a buzzer beater layup in basketball. He now plays football instead of soccer. There are risks associated with football. I don't want any of these things to happen, but it's always a possibility. The alternative is to send him home to play video games and live in a bubble.

[digglahhh]

What evidence do you have this injury would have been avoided with a wood bat? My son pitches 14U travel which has some good size hitters who hit rockets. There are certain risks associated with playing sports. I've already watched my son get his head kicked and a knee in the neck (same play) making a head first save in soccer and lay motionless for what seemed like a long time. He's been smacked head over heels into a wall trying to score a buzzer beater layup in basketball. He now plays football instead of soccer. There are risks associated with football. I don't want any of these things to happen, but it's always a possibility. The alternative is to send him home to play video games and live in a bubble.

So this is a zero-sum equation?

Actually, I believe the proposed alternative was wooden bats... The city has not yet proposed legislation that mandates in-bubble video game playing, as far as I know.

I agree with your post, in spirit. And, I do feel that we sanitize our children to their detriment, as a society. But you are certainly creating a false dichotomy here. Wood bats as opposed to metal do not compromise the benefits of and reasons one should encourage their children to play sports and be active.

[TG Coach]

So this is a zero-sum equation?

Actually, I believe the proposed alternative was wooden bats... The city has not yet proposed legislation that mandates in-bubble video game playing, as far as I know.

I agree with your post, in spirit. And, I do feel that we sanitize our children to their detriment, as a society. But you are certainly creating a false dichotomy here. Wood bats as opposed to metal do not compromise the benefits of and reasons one should encourage their children to play sports and be active.

The NYC City Council created a law as a knee jerk reaction to one situation. We can hypothesize all we want about wood v. metal but there's no proof one is more dangerous than the other. What I really don't like is government interceding when they perceive there to be a problem when there isn't. That's why I asked, "Where's the evidence?"

[Monarch]

I've heard of them too, and I've talked to Andre. I plan on ordering one up if (read: when :ughh) I break the Akadema I'm swinging now.

I have a couple of NY Stixs bats. I really like them. I am currently swinging the 159 and have them available on my website.

[digglahhh]

The NYC City Council created a law as a knee jerk reaction to one situation. We can hypothesize all we want about wood v. metal but there's no proof one is more dangerous than the other. What I really don't like is government interceding when they perceive there to be a problem when there isn't. That's why I asked, "Where's the evidence?"

I will not address that except to say the "proof" and the "evidence" is the root of the controversy. The opponents of metal bats claim that the metal bat companies have been manipulating their tests and making disingenuous claims about their products. This was not my point, I wasn't speaking in favor or in opposition to the ban.

My point was that you created a false dichotomy. Wood bats don't strip the benefits offered from participating in athletics and team sports. You made it sound like any effort to manage risk (assuming the risk really exists) is tantamount to putting a kid in a bubble and having him play Playstation.

You did not make the point that, in your opinion, there's no risk differential. Now, you did. I will only ask, if there is no increased risk that would mean that there is no increased efficacy, since the risk as stated is tied into the force with which the ball is struck by metal vs. wood bats. So, for those who feel that there is no risk differential, what's the big deal (holding any financial issues aside for the moment)?

[tommybaseball]

Is there anything on the net about the Kips Bay doubleheader? Your talking about Kips Bay from Brooklyn, right?

This is the Kips Bay Boys and Girls Club located in the Bronx at Randall Avenue.

[tommybaseball]

The NYC City Council created a law as a knee jerk reaction to one situation. We can hypothesize all we want about wood v. metal but there's no proof one is more dangerous than the other. What I really don't like is government interceding when they perceive there to be a problem when there isn't. That's why I asked, "Where's the evidence?"

Coach, you delve into a touchy area when you discuss government intervention. It really opens up a pandora's box and that particular box can't open in this discussion. I understand your concern in that regard. On the other hand, it really does come down to politics, doesn't it? Let me just say this. The government has intervened in the second-hand smoke issue and also in the now trendy trans-fat issue. In both cases, here in New York anyway, the issue of public health is the reason for intervention.This is what made Bloomberg's veto (overwhelmingly defeated) ridiculously hypocritical and disingenuous, especially when he tried to make the same point that you do about government intercession.

Now as far as proof goes:
There's no "proof" that Barry Bonds took steroids. Does the fact that his most statistically productive years occurred at and after the age of 36 say anything to you? If it does not, there's really no sense in carrying on this discussion with you.
If you've coached both metal and wood bat games as I have, you've had to have noticed a difference in the exit speed of the ball coming off the bat. If you happen to be one of the college coaches who get a nice, fat $60,000 check every year from the metal bat companies to use a particular brand bat, well, you probably wouldn't "notice" and most certainly wouldn't speak out against any increased danger would you?

When Mayor Bloomberg states that he has heard from professionals on both sides of the issue, John Franco who speaks out about the danger of metal bats that he sees on the field as an amateur coach and Mike Mussina who states that he sees no difference, does it matter at all that Mussina is a Representative for Little League Baseball?

It's like asking Cheney if he would vouch for Bush. (Relax people!)

Attorney Steve Callas reported on "THE SPORTS EDGE" that the statistics are skewed in the following way: Lawsuits related to injuries incurred by metal bats that have been settled out of court with the bat companies do not become statistics. There have been several of those.

Furthermore, the criteria that determines the BESR is akin to "cherry-picking" data to make the facts fit the intelligence to get the desired result. Sound familiar?
The testing equipment shoots the ball out at 60 or 65 miles per hour while the machine swings the bat at 70 miles per hour. There are many high school pitchers that throw upwards of 80 miles per hour and hitters with bat speeds that exceed 75 miles per hour. So how exactly is this test a true reflection of the bats performance? The bat companies had to use those speeds to get the desired results.

The second testing method, used by Little League, is the BPF (Bat Performance Factor). In this bogus test, called Bomb Hitting, a bat is hung, dangling in the air while a ball is shot out of a cannon-like machine at the bat.
Wood bats perform at a 1.0 ratio while metal bats perform at a 1.15 ratio. So why does Little League approve a 15% faster speed for metal bats?

Take your head out of the sand. Metal bat manufacturing is a $300 - $400 million dollar industry.
I found the quote I was looking for in my previous post, a quote that was once ruled inadmissable in court. It was stated in 1992 by one George Manning, an aluminum bat manufacturer. He said, "This is a game of wits. They make their move and we make ours."
Here's some science from Manning that may "prove" to you that there's a significant advantage for the hitter using metal, an advantage that most certainly proves dangerous to the one standing 60 feet, 6 inches away:
http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/tools_4.html

Proof? Do you really need Perry Mason or Columbo to figure this one out Coach?

Councilman Jim Oddo's campaign is about reducing risk. Sure there's risk in playing baseball. Yankee pitcher Jeff Karstens had his leg broken the other day by a line drive off a wood bat. The playstation analogy you made was indeed, as digglahhh put it, a false dichotomy. It really comes down to the car analogy. You can get killed in a car going 75 miles per hour and also in a car going 55 miles per hour. I would rather take my chances in a car going 55 miles per hour.

[aj9020]

Right on TommyBaseball.. You hit it right on the head... Hey, where did you find that link, hmmmm?? I thought I was the only one who dug deep and found that. Not to many people know about it. Right from the horses' mouth about the trampoline effect...

[tommybaseball]

Right on TommyBaseball.. You hit it right on the head... Hey, where did you find that link, hmmmm?? I thought I was the only one who dug deep and found that. Not to many people know about it. Right from the horses' mouth about the trampoline effect...

I am an avid listener of the syndicated radio program “The Sports Edge”, hosted by Rick Wolff, son of Hall of Fame broadcaster Bob Wolff. The program is about sports parenting and covers a wide range of topics from moronic parents who ruin Little Leaguers baseball experience, to the alarming number of arm injuries incurred by young pitchers because they start throwing curve balls at the age of 9 or are abused by coaches who allow them to throw a ridiculous amount of pitches to win at any cost. The program airs on Sunday mornings at 8:00am.
The metal bat controversy has been featured several times. They’ve had numerous discussions and guests on both sides of the issue. When I hear something, I research it and share it. It just takes a couple of Googles.

Sometimes I feel like the guy in the old HBO program, “The Mind of The Married Man”. I hear a statement, and a scene from a movie flashes in my mind. In regard to the metal bat controversy, a scene from “JAWS” plays out. It’s the one after Alex, the little kid is devoured by the shark while out on his yellow raft. The mother sees Brody after the funeral and tells him something along the lines of “You knew there was a shark out there and you left the beaches open anyway. You knew!” Then she slaps him in the face.
I also “see” the mayor who is worried more about losing the Memorial Weekend business than doing the right thing by closing the beaches and tells Hooper and company that “I don’t want the news crew here when they open up the shark and that little Kibbler kid spills out all over the dock.”
I feel for the parents of the next kid whose life is changed forever when a “trampoline effected” ball smashes into his face and busts his skull and scrambles his brain or kills him.
I already see the pained and angered look on their faces at that moment they find out that people knew… that the information is out there and has been out there. That clever people with lots of money juggled numbers, hid lawsuits and claimed that there’s “no proof” It’s a Quentin Tarantino movie and somehow, a slap to the face just won’t do.

[J-MAC]

the game was ment to be played with wood. i can see why they use metal when ur from t-ball till 12-13 years old, but to use it when ur in hs it starts to become a real liability issue. and ur learn how to hit the right way with the wood bats. a pop fly to the short stop with a wood bat is now a ball ran to the gap with a metal bat. it is so much more foriving and so much more dangerous then with wood. some people say that colleges still use the metal bats just fo the marketing and i belive it.

[Mattingly]

USA Today (must be the former "Baseball Weekly" mag) has a relatively new article, from Sunday, 6-3-07, and please click on the article to get the attached graphic which compares the various constructions, costs, sweet spots and weights of these bats:

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/06/03/batsx.jpg
By Robert Deutsch, USA TODAY
Proponents of a bill banning metal bats from high
school play in New York City claim there is an
increased risk of injury. Opposing voices say
there is no proof metal is less safe than wood.

Dealing with a batty situation: Wood vs. metal (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2007-06-03-bats-cover_N.htm)
The decades-old debate between advocates of metal baseball bats and those who favor wood heated up this spring in New York City with the March 16 passage of a City Council bill to outlaw metal bats in high school games starting Sept. 1.
Republican councilman James Oddo, who sponsored the bill, has long advocated returning to wood, citing safety concerns. Although Mayor Michael Bloomberg vetoed the legislation, saying the issue is best left up to arbiters of the game, the Council overrode him April 23 by a 41-4 vote.

Just when wood bat advocates started to celebrate, a coalition of sporting goods companies, USA Baseball (the national governing body for the amateur game), the National High School Baseball Coaches Association and the parents of several players filed suit against the city May 7 in U.S. District Court to have the law overturned.

Proponents of the new law say metal bats increase the risk of injury because balls come off faster, giving players less time to react. Metal bat advocates say there's no proof they're less safe than wood.

The National Federation of State High School Associations allows the use of wood and non-wood bats in games.

Attorney David Ettinger, representing the coalition that is suing — "Don't Take My Bat Away" — says the group wants the law declared illegal. "There is no basis for the bill," Ettinger says. "The city has the power to protect health and safety, but there's no evidence of a safety concern."

Similar bills are being discussed in the state legislatures of New York, Pennsylvania and New Jersey, where 12-year-old StevenDomalewski last summer went into cardiac arrest after he was struck in the chest by a ball hit off a metal bat. He suffered severe brain damage when his heart stopped.

The issue has long been debated in college baseball. Fresno State's Tanner Scheppers was hit in the head by a line drive Sunday while pitching in an NCAA tournament game against Minnesota and left the field on a stretcher.

The North Dakota High School Activities Association voted to change to wood this season. A similar proposal for Massachusetts high schools was turned down last month.