Delusion Reigns

[johncap]

Bud Selig talking about the new labor deal:

"This is the golden era in every way," said commissioner Bud Selig, sitting in the middle of a dais at Busch Stadium that included five officials from each side."

Golden era of WHAT? I guess all the steroid problems have magically gone away amidst the signing of a status quo labor agreement. The worst commissioner in the histroy of the sport pats himself on the back much the same way another leader of a large Amercian entity deludes himself that all is peachy.

What a joke.

Bud for President!

[ESPNFan]

Bud Selig talking about the new labor deal:

"This is the golden era in every way," said commissioner Bud Selig, sitting in the middle of a dais at Busch Stadium that included five officials from each side."

Golden era of WHAT? I guess all the steroid problems have magically gone away amidst the signing of a status quo labor agreement. The worst commissioner in the histroy of the sport pats himself on the back much the same way another leader of a large Amercian entity deludes himself that all is peachy.

What a joke.

Bud for President!

Not to mention world series ratings being not so good either.

[Ubiquitous]

So what was the golden era of baseball?

[Astro]

Bud Selig talking about the new labor deal:

"This is the golden era in every way," said commissioner Bud Selig, sitting in the middle of a dais at Busch Stadium that included five officials from each side."

Golden era of WHAT? I guess all the steroid problems have magically gone away amidst the signing of a status quo labor agreement. The worst commissioner in the histroy of the sport pats himself on the back much the same way another leader of a large Amercian entity deludes himself that all is peachy.

What a joke.

Bud for President!
Well, unlike this forum where all anyone talks about is steroids, fans dont really care about steroids THAT much... except with Barry Bonds

[Hammerin Hank]

Not to mention world series ratings being not so good either.

And why would there be good ratings? It's only St. Louis and Detroit. It's not like it's the Yankees.

[Monarchs29]

What a legacy you're leaving Bud... Well, a lot of us HOPE you're leaving, and soon.

You should be VERY proud of your accomplishments.

The Expos debacle.

Steroids, and the testing of.

Tied ASG's.

ASG decides Home-Field Advantage in Series.

World Series cancelled(1994).

The threat of contraction.

Player's salaries skyrocket. $25M per season, for one player?

The Golden Age of Baseball? Yeah right! Bud, you're a legend in your own mind.

[Rapmaster]

What a legacy you're leaving Bud... Well, a lot of us HOPE you're leaving, and soon.

You should be VERY proud of your accomplishments.

The Expos debacle.

Steroids, and the testing of.

Tied ASG's.

ASG decides Home-Field Advantage in Series.

World Series cancelled(1994).

The threat of contraction.

Player's salaries skyrocket. $25M per season, for one player?

The Golden Age of Baseball? Yeah right! Bud, you're a legend in your own mind.

On the good side,

6 Division Format

Wild Card

Division Series

Interleague Play (maybe)

World Baseball Classic

Luxury Tax

Revenue Sharing

[Sweet Lou]

On the good side,

6 Division Format

Wild Card

Division Series

Interleague Play (maybe)

World Baseball Classic

Luxury Tax

Revenue Sharing
The 6 division format is not good. There needs to be only 4, or dare I say, 2. And No Wildcard, no division series.
The World Baseball Classic is great, and I can't wait till the next one.

[Brian McKenna]

Never underestimate a baseball fan's penchant for complaining.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Oh yeah? Well, I don't like Bud Selig, but he's right. Despite all the problems, and there are quite a few, this is still another Golden Age of baseball.

[ESPNFan]

I'd have to say that IMO from the early-mid 1970's to 1992-1993 was when baseball was at its peak.

Now I'm just waiting for Bud to go away and Baseball to find that Pete Rozell/ Paul Tagliabue they so desperately need.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I'd have to say that IMO from the early-mid 1970's to 1992-1993 was when baseball was at its peak.


That makes me sad. I've only been a fan of baseball for three years during it's peak. :(

;)

[rockin500]

The 6 division format is not good. There needs to be only 4, or dare I say, 2. And No Wildcard, no division series.
The World Baseball Classic is great, and I can't wait till the next one.
i disagree. the 6 division plus wild card is the best possible with 30 teams. the WBC, eh, not so good.

[ESPNFan]

That makes me sad. I've only been a fan of baseball for three years during it's peak. :(

;)

Hey it souldn't make you sad, it should make you want the changes made to return it to the prominant place in American Sports it deserves. The first step to that IMO is removing the schill for the owners that is our current commisioner and putting in someone with truely an intrest in making baseball the best professional sport it can be.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Hey it souldn't make you sad, it should make you want the changes made to return it to the prominant place in American Sports it deserves. The first step to that IMO is removing the schill for the owners that is our current commisioner and putting in someone with truely an intrest in making baseball the best professional sport it can be.

Right, I agree, but then the question remains:

1. Who can do that?

and

2. What needs to be done?

Daunting task. :eek:

[johncap]

Oh yeah? Well, I don't like Bud Selig, but he's right. Despite all the problems, and there are quite a few, this is still another Golden Age of baseball.
This is the Garbage Era of Baseball. As long as there's still a DH, even if they try and tell you the leagues are joined, and no true drug policy to police themselves...

To answer someone else's question, the Golden Era of Baseball was the 50s for baseball purity, a great prolifieration of black and Latino players, great pennat races, etc.

[Mattingly]

Not to mention world series ratings being not so good either.
That would be the Cards-Tigers WS being the polar opposite of the Yanks-Red Sox ALCS. If there was a top AL team in the WS, I bet that ratings would be much higher. Even if it's to root against one certain AL team. :D ;) :p

And why would there be good ratings? It's only St. Louis and Detroit. It's not like it's the Yankees.
I think that a Cards-Yanks WS would have good ratings. A return to their 1964 WS matchup (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1964_WS.shtml).

Which two teams do you feel would make for sizeable WS ratings?

[Mattingly]

I'd have to say that IMO from the early-mid 1970's to 1992-1993 was when baseball was at its peak.

Now I'm just waiting for Bud to go away and Baseball to find that Pete Rozell/ Paul Tagliabue they so desperately need.
What was there about those times, those commissioners, that you've found made baseball so interesting and loveable to watch?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What a legacy you're leaving Bud... Well, a lot of us HOPE you're leaving, and soon.

You should be VERY proud of your accomplishments.


The Expos debacle.
Let's see they moved a struggling franchise to a better market with fans who actually care about the team. And that is bad because? :noidea


Steroids, and the testing of.
There's lots of blame to spread here and it starts with the players. Bud could have been more active in dealing with it of course.


Tied ASG's.
The ASG is an exhibition. Also, it wasn't Selig's fault. Blame the managers for burning through their pitchers so fast.


ASG decides Home-Field Advantage in Series.
This is kind of dumb.


World Series cancelled(1994).
Again lots of blame to spread around here, players, owners. Selig is an owner so we all know where his loyalties are. :rolleyes:


The threat of contraction.
I keep going back and forth on this one. They shouldn't have expanded in the first place but the owners were simply greedy.


Player's salaries skyrocket. $25M per season, for one player?
Only a-Rod makes that much. And the owners are willing to pay high salaries. And what's wrong with high salaries?


The Golden Age of Baseball? Yeah right! Bud, you're a legend in your own mind.
There really has been no Golden Age of baseball. It's just an artifical construct from old-school complainers,

[bigtime39]

World Series ratings are never going to be what Super Bowl ratings are going to be. The Super Bowl is a one day thing, and hell, it seems that half the people watching are more interested in the commercials. The World Series is a minimum four-night, 12+ hour commitment, and if your team (or one that you hate) isn't involved, why should you be? As a poster on this board, I'm well to the far side of the baseball fan bell curve, but I'll freely admit that I watched very little of game one, and once the Tigers fell behind in game three, watched while doing something else.
In another thread, people are wondering if the season is too long. I don't think it is, but still believe that the games are. Baseball should a) look again at ways to shorten the game that don't affect play, and be b) not say a word about it while doing it. Just have it look like it's happening on its own.

[Ubiquitous]

Let's see they moved a struggling franchise to a better market with fans who actually care about the team. And that is bad because? :noidea


It is bad because Montreal cared about their team. It was the owner and then MLB that destroyed the fan base.


Again lots of blame to spread around here, players, owners. Selig is an owner so we all know where his loyalties are. :rolleyes:
No cancelling the world series was all the owners fault.


I keep going back and forth on this one. They shouldn't have expanded in the first place but the owners were simply greedy. A big part of the reason they expanded was because of collusion and the fines they had to pay to the players as a result of collusion. Expandind wasn't bad. Some of the "yes man" owners they picked were. Threatening contraction was based, tends to disenfranchise your fan base.





There really has been no Golden Age of baseball.

Couldn't agree more. All eras of baseball had some major problems.

[Captain Cold Nose]

This is the Garbage Era of Baseball. As long as there's still a DH, even if they try and tell you the leagues are joined, and no true drug policy to police themselves...

To answer someone else's question, the Golden Era of Baseball was the 50s for baseball purity, a great prolifieration of black and Latino players, great pennat races, etc.
Practically complete NYC domination . . .

[mwiggins]

Practically complete NYC domination . . .

And mostly boring station-to-station offenses built around walks and 3-run homers. And declining attendence. And the movement of quite a few franchises.

[Captain Cold Nose]

And mostly boring station-to-station offenses built around walks and 3-run homers. And declining attendence. And the movement of quite a few franchises.
Essentially accentuating what ubi said, all eras had their problems. There were positives to be had in each era, as well.
Selieg was right in a way, there is a heck of a lot more gold now than there was then for those in the position to get it. As a business, baseball is booming like never before.

[MudvilleMike]

On the good side,

6 Division Format

Wild Card

Division Series

Interleague Play (maybe)

World Baseball Classic

Luxury Tax

Revenue Sharing

I agree there's been a lot of positives as well, especially the WBC.

[hubkittel]

i think the whole "golden era" thing refers to the amount of money that owners and players have in their pockets.

as to the bad ratings, i would say that everything is relative. ratings for all programming on the networks have been in free fall due to increased competition. if you look at it in relative terms, you get this:

"On each of the first two nights of the World Series, Fox won prime time. The Game 1 rating was the highest for Saturday night on any network since the NCAA basketball semifinals on April 1 on CBS. Game 2 was the highest-rated Sunday night on Fox since the NFC Championship on Jan. 22.

Fox finished second in prime time last week for the first time this season, 0.1 behind ABC." AP

i'm sure that this will end up being the lowest tv ratings for any world series ever-because, generally, each new world series gets worse ratings than the previous one. if you graphed the world series tv ratings for the past 20 years it would look like a downhill ski slope. but if you compare world series ratings to all other network programming, it still basicly does better than anything other than the super bowl. regardless of who's playing.

[rockin500]

i'm sure that this will end up being the lowest tv ratings for any world series ever-because, generally, each new world series gets worse ratings than the previous one. if you graphed the world series tv ratings for the past 20 years it would look like a downhill ski slope. but if you compare world series ratings to all other network programming, it still basicly does better than anything other than the super bowl. regardless of who's playing.

pretty much. theres a lot more competition out there so all TV ratings suffer in comparison to some of those numbers from yesteryear.

it wont be lower than last years just because there will be at least one more game than last years so more people will be watching this years than last.

[Disgruntaledmarinerfan]

On the good side,

6 Division Format

Wild Card

Division Series

Interleague Play (maybe)

World Baseball Classic

Luxury Tax

Revenue Sharing

I couldn't agree with you more. these improvements have made the game better.

[Monarchs29]

Honus Wagner -"Let's see they moved a struggling franchise to a better market with fans who actually care about the team. And that is bad because?"

There was conspiracy involved here. It was between Selig, Loria and, it's my belief Claude Brochu was involved also. It had nothing to do with the fans.

Selig had something against the Montreal franchise. As for the relocation to D.C., I'll put this forward... It was IMO, that D.C. was the intended site to move the team all along. The rest of it was smoke and mirrors. I'll make a suggestion here that there might be another fly in the ointment.

And just as an aside, those devoted fans in Washington you spoke about? Well, if you check the attendance numbers, over 500k of them disappeared over the course of the 2006 season, compared to 2005.

"The ASG is an exhibition. Also, it wasn't Selig's fault. Blame the managers for burning through their pitchers so fast."

You'll pardon me, but as I recall, It was SELIG who made the decision. What he could have done, was tell the two managers, I don't care who pitches, get someone out there. As you said, it's an exhibition, who cares who wins.
Well, it was an exhibition, until BS had another of his bright ideas.

"Only a-Rod makes that much. And the owners are willing to pay high salaries. And what's wrong with high salaries?"

Check you ticket price.

[bluezebra]

Bud Selig talking about the new labor deal:

"This is the golden era in every way," said commissioner Bud Selig, sitting in the middle of a dais at Busch Stadium that included five officials from each side."

Golden era of WHAT? I guess all the steroid problems have magically gone away amidst the signing of a status quo labor agreement. The worst commissioner in the histroy of the sport pats himself on the back much the same way another leader of a large Amercian entity deludes himself that all is peachy.

What a joke.

Bud for President!

Let's see. MLB has set attendance records the past three seasons. The Minors are also setting attendance records.

The Players' Union stymies stringement prosecution, or even testing, for illegal substances. As for Selig being "The worst commissioner in the history (not "histroy) of sports", it shows that you know little about BASEBALL HISTORY, never mind ALL sports.

Bob

[rockin500]

[
You'll pardon me, but as I recall, It was SELIG who made the decision. What he could have done, was tell the two managers, I don't care who pitches, get someone out there. As you said, it's an exhibition, who cares who wins.
Well, it was an exhibition, until BS had another of his bright ideas.




sorry, but that doesnt hold water. All the pitchers were used and you are NOT going to have someone pitch twice and you CANNOT ask a position player to pitch.

blame it on the managers, not Bud.

[west coast orange and black]

In light of the new labor agreement, and the record $5.2 billion in revenue that expedited its painless arrival, it may be time to reconsider Selig's legacy. Major League Baseball has never been so prosperous or, even before free agency, so open to an array of contenders.

Selig may not deserve all, or even much, of the credit for the parity, but let's give the man his due.
-gwen knapp, sf chronicle staff writer, thursday, 26 october 2006


knapp's complete story here (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/10/26/SPGH9LVU981.DTL&type=printable)

[ESPNFan]

sorry, but that doesnt hold water. All the pitchers were used and you are NOT going to have someone pitch twice and you CANNOT ask a position player to pitch.

blame it on the managers, not Bud.

But a commisioner is supposed to be a man of vision who solves problems, not a guy content to throwup his hands and say "oh well sorry Milwalkee."

I said it at the time and I'll say it again get the first or third base coaches to throw an impromtu HR derby to two sluggers from each side to decide it and the fans would have went home happy.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ yeah. that, or some other way to conlude a winner... for an exhibition game.

sometimes whacky stuff happens in exhibition games.
(see kruk v johnson, 1993)

[Ubiquitous]

But a commisioner is supposed to be a man of vision who solves problems, not a guy content to throwup his hands and say "oh well sorry Milwalkee."

I said it at the time and I'll say it again get the first or third base coaches to throw an impromtu HR derby to two sluggers from each side to decide it and the fans would have went home happy.


No they wouldn't have. It was a no win situation for Bud and baseball. Unless Freddy Garcia gives up a gopher ball an ends the game nobody would have been happy with the outcome.

Baseball to many fans is an insitution it is one of the reasons why the "tie" at the all star game was so scandalous. If they went out there and did some on the fly HR derby to decide the winner the fans would have been outraged. It would have been a mockery of the game and the rules of such a venerable institution. If they had allowed pitchers and players back into the game, they would have been outraged. If they forced the pitchers currently in the game to continue pitching the fans would have been outraged that they risked these players health for an exhibition game. If one of them purposely let the other team win the fans would have been outraged that they didn't give it their all.

At that point in time nothing Bud or anybody could do would have been met with approval. The way to have solve that problem needed to be figured out and put in place before that game ever took place. They didn't do that, but then again they hadn't done for decades.

[Rookie1914]

Which two teams do you feel would make for sizeable WS ratings?

1. Cubs vs Red Sox
2. Cubs vs Yankees

[west coast orange and black]

ubiquitous: If they went out there and did some on the fly HR derby to decide the winner the fans would have been outraged. It would have been a mockery of the game and the rules of such a venerable institution.

to read and to believe it here at fever, tons of fans knew absolutely for years about ped, but that did not stop them from going to, reading about, posting about and enjoying baseball; they did not consider the game to be a mockery of itself.

i believe that fans would have endured and even embraced a one-time, memorable, improbable ending to that asg.

[west coast orange and black]

Cubs vs Red Sox
Cubs vs Yankees

lemme guess: yer a cubs fan.

[Ubiquitous]

ubiquitous: If they went out there and did some on the fly HR derby to decide the winner the fans would have been outraged. It would have been a mockery of the game and the rules of such a venerable institution.

to read and to believe it here at fever, tons of fans knew absolutely for years about ped, but that did not stop them from going to, reading about, posting about and enjoying baseball; they did not consider the game to be a mockery of itself.

i believe that fans would have endured and even embraced a one-time, memorable, improbable ending to that asg.


Well would fans have put up with peds if they saw the players injecting themselves in the dugout? Fans are like lobsters. You are probably saying what? Okay. . . .

If you take a lobster and stick him tail first in boiling water the darn thing thrashes around and makes a general mess of the area. If you put him in a pot of cold water and then heat the water up to a boil he doesn't do a darn thing except die and cook.

The point being that we as fans will put up with a lot of nefarious things as long as we don't see it. But do something in front of our eyes and we will react. Evidence? see, Kenny Rogers

[west coast orange and black]

well, one is a world series game, the other is an exhibition.

i am thinking that fans would laugh at, and the umps would allow, rogers taking the hill next march against the astros with a huge brown glob on his wrist.

[johncap]

Let's see. MLB has set attendance records the past three seasons. The Minors are also setting attendance records.

The Players' Union stymies stringement prosecution, or even testing, for illegal substances. As for Selig being "The worst commissioner in the history (not "histroy) of sports", it shows that you know little about BASEBALL HISTORY, never mind ALL sports.

Bob
I'll debate you on baseball history and the lgacy of Bud "The WORST Commissioner In the History of Sports" Selig any time.

Baseball sets attendance records because of new ballparks and economic conditions, not because the commssioner has been effective at any one of his responsibilities. He's NOT been effective in the least, as has been detailed earlier in this thread. He's a bumbling fool who ran his own team into the ground; he's a shill for the greedy owners and I don't see one crdible positive thing he deserves credit for. Any good going on is baseball is despite his presence.

The only things I've seen he's good at is throwing up his hands and burying his head in the sand.

[johncap]

Well would fans have put up with peds if they saw the players injecting themselves in the dugout? Fans are like lobsters. You are probably saying what? Okay. . . .

If you take a lobster and stick him tail first in boiling water the darn thing thrashes around and makes a general mess of the area. If you put him in a pot of cold water and then heat the water up to a boil he doesn't do a darn thing except die and cook.

The point being that we as fans will put up with a lot of nefarious things as long as we don't see it. But do something in front of our eyes and we will react. Evidence? see, Kenny RogersWe'll see how well people react to what they see on November 7th.

[Rookie1914]

Cubs vs Red Sox
Cubs vs Yankees

lemme guess: yer a cubs fan.

I am and everyone wants to see the Cubs in the WS. "Everyone" meaning the majority of people. It would have huge ratings.

[johncap]

I am and everyone wants to see the Cubs in the WS. "Everyone" meaning the majority of people. It would have huge ratings.
So would the return of Babe Ruth. I'm not sure which is more likely... :laugh

Sorry, didn't mean to laugh at you. We're with you. We feel your pain.... :hp

[hubkittel]

"Everyone" meaning the majority of people.

it's appropriate that this thread is titled "delusion reigns". :laugh

[Rookie1914]

So would the return of Babe Ruth. I'm not sure which is more likely... :laugh

Sorry, didn't mean to laugh at you. We're with you. We feel your pain.... :hp

No worries :) I am rooting for my Missouri State Alumni Brother, Mr. Ryan Howard - your boy too :waving

[johncap]

No worries :) I am rooting for my Missouri State Alumni Brother, Mr. Ryan Howard - your boy too :waving
He's the first thing out of St. Louis I've EVER rooted for. Aside from Tim McCarver when his head is on straight.

[hubkittel]

He's the first thing out of St. Louis I've EVER rooted for. Aside from Tim McCarver when his head is on straight.

what about t.s. eliot? how could you not root for t.s. eliot?

[mwiggins]

But a commisioner is supposed to be a man of vision who solves problems, not a guy content to throwup his hands and say "oh well sorry Milwalkee."

I said it at the time and I'll say it again get the first or third base coaches to throw an impromtu HR derby to two sluggers from each side to decide it and the fans would have went home happy.

If he would have done that he would be blasted today for making a mockery of the All-Star Game, at least as much as he is for calling it a tie. There was nothing he could have done to make people happy at that point.

[skeletor]

If he would have done that he would be blasted today for making a mockery of the All-Star Game, at least as much as he is for calling it a tie. There was nothing he could have done to make people happy at that point.

The current season is too long..reduce from 162 to back to 154..maybe
a little less..but it won't happen as the players union won't allow the
number of games to be reduced..as they won't allow the DH to be
'retired'..I don't ever remember the weather being so crappy for a
series..both cities Detroit and St.Louis, are having bad weather....

Of course, the super bowl will have higher ratings..It's only ONE game
for all the marbles....where the WS,can go from 4 to 7 games..

I'm glad that other teams besides the New York-Boston-west coast axis,
has a chance to play in the series..would you all like to see the METS
and Yankees, or RED SOX play in the series every year ? as much as I
like those teams, it would be a drag....

the stats for hitting for both the Tigers and Cards, are lacking....185 and .196
wondering if the cold weather is the cause ?

if the weather continues to refuse to get better...might be looking at the
series to go to the end of the month, or even november...now that is
too weird.....oh well..

as for BUD...hard to ponder what his overall legacy for baseball will be
remembered...

[johncap]

If he would have done that he would be blasted today for making a mockery of the All-Star Game, at least as much as he is for calling it a tie. There was nothing he could have done to make people happy at that point.
That's ridicuolus. He was crying, literally, and couldn't make a damn decision. Anyone else would have ordered the game completed, one way or another. You just don't ewnd the game like that, like a blitering idiot. And THEN, add insult to injury by ordering an annual exhibition game to have great influence on the biggest games of the year. The whole thing is and was a travesty. typical Bud.

Fact is he's being blasted TODAY for making a mockery of the whole thing, and we have to live with the outcome.

[johncap]

The current season is too long..reduce from 162 to back to 154..maybe
a little less..but it won't happen as the players union won't allow the
number of games to be reduced..as they won't allow the DH to be
'retired'..I don't ever remember the weather being so crappy for a
series..both cities Detroit and St.Louis, are having bad weather....

Of course, the super bowl will have higher ratings..It's only ONE game
for all the marbles....where the WS,can go from 4 to 7 games..

I'm glad that other teams besides the New York-Boston-west coast axis,
has a chance to play in the series..would you all like to see the METS
and Yankees, or RED SOX play in the series every year ? as much as I
like those teams, it would be a drag....

the stats for hitting for both the Tigers and Cards, are lacking....185 and .196
wondering if the cold weather is the cause ?

if the weather continues to refuse to get better...might be looking at the
series to go to the end of the month, or even november...now that is
too weird.....oh well..

as for BUD...hard to ponder what his overall legacy for baseball will be
remembered...
It's be fitting for it to rain and snow until Thanksgiving...non-stop...

[Imapotato]

On the good side,

6 Division Format

Wild Card

Division Series

Interleague Play (maybe)

World Baseball Classic

Luxury Tax

Revenue Sharing

Only the last 2 are any good...and even those are mediocre plans

As for attendence records...way to SPIN it bluezebra, as usual

How about the lack of population control? Of course baseball will have more attendence then the 80's 70's and 60's....look at a Census report for crying out loud

[johncap]

Only the last 2 are any good...and even those are mediocre plans

As for attendence records...way to SPIN it bluezebra, as usual

How about the lack of population control? Of course baseball will have more attendence then the 80's 70's and 60's....look at a Census report for crying out loud
How about one other simple question? How did football overtake baseball as our "national pastime"? If you want to look at attendance and popularity, let's compare them head to head over the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

And, what has Bud Boy done to win back another lost generation turned away by late night playoofs and World Series that has effectively pushed away the last couple generations of kids? Nothing! All for the alimight dollar. So, I couild care less that they signed another pact. It's just greed compromising with greed. Selig is a joke, plain and simple.

Golden Age my left golden nut.

[ESPNFan]

No they wouldn't have. It was a no win situation for Bud and baseball. Unless Freddy Garcia gives up a gopher ball an ends the game nobody would have been happy with the outcome.

Baseball to many fans is an insitution it is one of the reasons why the "tie" at the all star game was so scandalous. If they went out there and did some on the fly HR derby to decide the winner the fans would have been outraged. It would have been a mockery of the game and the rules of such a venerable institution. If they had allowed pitchers and players back into the game, they would have been outraged. If they forced the pitchers currently in the game to continue pitching the fans would have been outraged that they risked these players health for an exhibition game. If one of them purposely let the other team win the fans would have been outraged that they didn't give it their all.

At that point in time nothing Bud or anybody could do would have been met with approval. The way to have solve that problem needed to be figured out and put in place before that game ever took place. They didn't do that, but then again they hadn't done for decades.

So your trying to tell everyone here that Baseball fans would have been just as if not more upset if say Bonds and Dunn faced Rameriz and A-Rod in a HR derby to decide the game, then they were with going home with a tie result?

Seriously this is pretty hard to swallow.
Nobody wanted the pitchers back in to the game because the risk of getting one injured isn't worth it for an exibition game and nobody wanted to see another Chan Ho out of the Park grove job either.

If Bud was a visionary and a ideas guy instead of a puppet for the owners we might very well have gotten a better out come than a embarrasing tie.

[ESPNFan]

Well would fans have put up with peds if they saw the players injecting themselves in the dugout? Fans are like lobsters. You are probably saying what? Okay. . . .

If you take a lobster and stick him tail first in boiling water the darn thing thrashes around and makes a general mess of the area. If you put him in a pot of cold water and then heat the water up to a boil he doesn't do a darn thing except die and cook.

The point being that we as fans will put up with a lot of nefarious things as long as we don't see it. But do something in front of our eyes and we will react. Evidence? see, Kenny Rogers

Uh is it wrong for us Lobsters to want to know why a guy with a giant gob of what look like pine tar on his pitching hand not to be tossed out of a game while guys like Julian Tavarez and others have been tossed for the same reason?
I wanted to know, got a number of answers that I though were satisfactory, and have moved on, its not a big deal to me.

Steroids were a problem that, even though unseen, people got wise to. And the thing that really caused all us lobsters to thrash around and make a mess was that MLB was ignoring the problem, basicly trying tell us all that the pot wasn't getting any hotter.

[Ubiquitous]

Yes the lobsters got real angry about steroids, about 20 years later.






So you want to tell me that all those people who yell and complain the wild card destroying the tradition of the game, interleague being bad, the DH being an abomination would be okay with some HR Derby deciding a game?

No they wouldn't. They would say it is un-american, they would say they may do that in soccer but in our sport. Thank you Bud for destroying another tradition. It was a no win situation.

[johncap]

Yes the lobsters got real angry about steroids, about 20 years later.






So you want to tell me that all those people who yell and complain the wild card destroying the tradition of the game, interleague being bad, the DH being an abomination would be okay with some HR Derby deciding a game?

No they wouldn't. They would say it is un-american, they would say they may do that in soccer but in our sport. Thank you Bud for destroying another tradition. It was a no win situation.
I must have missed someone suggesting a HR derby to finish the AS game. That's so stupid I'm shocked Buddy boy didn't think of it. However, that game should have been finished and I don't give a damn who had to pitch, and all the subsequent BS surrounding it made moot. This nonsense about pitchers getting hurt is just that. Twenty years ago pitrchers routinely threw 150- 175 pitches a game and they started every fourth day. Curt Schilling threw 250 pitches in a game early in the 90s. There were perhaps 22 pitchers on those rosters for that game, so what if someone who had been taken out had to go back in, it was an exhibition, you do what you have to do. To not finish the game was unacceptable. To add meaning to the game to make it more important is further foolishness.

[ESPNFan]

Yes the lobsters got real angry about steroids, about 20 years later.






So you want to tell me that all those people who yell and complain the wild card destroying the tradition of the game, interleague being bad, the DH being an abomination would be okay with some HR Derby deciding a game?

No they wouldn't. They would say it is un-american, they would say they may do that in soccer but in our sport. Thank you Bud for destroying another tradition. It was a no win situation.

Right there were so many guy's in the early 1980's on the sauce, how could we have been so blind. :rolleyes: :laugh


Uh and all the examples you site are problems people have with changes to the regular season, basic rules of entire leagues and the way the playoffs are structured.
Were talking about what was at the time a meaningless exibition game in a park were sausages, hot dogs and brats run laps for fun. If Bud let the Brat and Hot dog pitch the 11th inning people would have liked it alot better than a tie thats for damn sure. The problem that people have now with the allstar game is what was supposed to be a fun exibition now has way too much importance in the grand scheme of things.

Lets see during all star break we have a home run derby a oldtimer/celebrity softballgame, a futures game and fan fest and you think the baseball community is going to go triple postal if the ASG is decided by a Homerun derby? Look we got shafted an entire world series in 1994. I think a little off the cuff long ball would have made this game memorable for all the right reasons not the wrong ones.

[Ubiquitous]

Right there were so many guy's in the early 1980's on the sauce, how could we have been so blind. :rolleyes: :laugh
Yes because 1983 was the only window for taking a stand. AFter that everybody had to stay quiet and not saying anything for another 20 years.



Uh and all the examples you site are problems people have with changes to the regular season, basic rules of entire leagues and the way the playoffs are structured.
Were talking about what was at the time a meaningless exibition game in a park were sausages, hot dogs and brats run laps for fun. If Bud let the Brat and Hot dog pitch the 11th inning people would have liked it alot better than a tie thats for damn sure. The problem that people have now with the allstar game is what was supposed to be a fun exibition now has way too much importance in the grand scheme of things.

Lets see during all star break we have a home run derby a oldtimer/celebrity softballgame, a futures game and fan fest and you think the baseball community is going to go triple postal if the ASG is decided by a Homerun derby? Look we got shafted an entire world series in 1994. I think a little off the cuff long ball would have made this game memorable for all the right reasons not the wrong ones.


Come on gimme a break. If it is an exhibition then why do you care that it ended in a tie? Why do you need some sort of HR derby to declare a winner? Why even play the game? You say the all-star game is supposed to be a fun exhibition game so why does it matter that it got called before a winner? People are still talking about it years later. Obviously it wasn't just a meaningless game to you and to a lot of other people. Looking back in hindsight and saying you would have no problem with a HR derby deciding the game is well. . .nice, but it is baloney. If people are still kvetching today about a tie in the AS game then you can rest assured they would still be barking about some sort of impromptu slug fest to decide it all.

Why don't they just flip a coin at the end? A HR derby is closure that fans could accept? Okay.

[ESPNFan]

Yes because 1983 was the only window for taking a stand. AFter that everybody had to stay quiet and not saying anything for another 20 years.





Come on gimme a break. If it is an exhibition then why do you care that it ended in a tie? Why do you need some sort of HR derby to declare a winner? Why even play the game? You say the all-star game is supposed to be a fun exhibition game so why does it matter that it got called before a winner? People are still talking about it years later. Obviously it wasn't just a meaningless game to you and to a lot of other people. Looking back in hindsight and saying you would have no problem with a HR derby deciding the game is well. . .nice, but it is baloney. If people are still kvetching today about a tie in the AS game then you can rest assured they would still be barking about some sort of impromptu slug fest to decide it all.

Why don't they just flip a coin at the end? A HR derby is closure that fans could accept? Okay.

In the mid 1980's baseball had a bigger problem dealing with Coke than a PED's.

And do you think your psychic or something because to call me full of baloney about the HR derby idea because you don't agree with it is kinda presumptuous, to be kind. I said that the night of the game and still say it to this day.

[Ubiquitous]

I didn't say you were full of baloney but I just don't buy your line of argument on this point. You are telling me that this game is just a meaningless exhibition yet you are still arguing about it and complaining about how it ended 4 years later. What is the difference between ending the game in a tie and ending the game in a HR Derby? Okay fine you want to say you would have no problem with a HR derby. Okay fine, but again my point was that the fans of baseball wouldn't be fine with it and I still don't think they would have been.

[Ubiquitous]

In the mid 1980's baseball had a bigger problem dealing with Coke than a PED's.

Okay so what about 1989? What about 1992? What about 1998? what about 2001?

[Skin & Bones]

Whose to say Baseball didn't have a problem with PED'S in the early 80's ?

Hell, we had Tom House admit to using steroids and Amphetamines in the 70's, and then go on to say that Amphemines were rampant during that time.

That by itself doesn't " prove " that PED'S were a problem in baseball then, but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility.

[ESPNFan]

I didn't say you were full of baloney but I just don't buy your line of argument on this point. You are telling me that this game is just a meaningless exhibition yet you are still arguing about it and complaining about how it ended 4 years later. What is the difference between ending the game in a tie and ending the game in a HR Derby? Okay fine you want to say you would have no problem with a HR derby. Okay fine, but again my point was that the fans of baseball wouldn't be fine with it and I still don't think they would have been.

Ok well I think were getting off the point of why I brought it up in the first place. That a good creative visionary commisioner would have done something to salvage that game. A HR derby is not a perfect solution but I'd bet my 401K that more people would have enjoyed the derby than the tie. And your right that some fans would have found it abhorrant but I believe they would have been in the minority.

[ESPNFan]

Okay so what about 1989? What about 1992? What about 1998? what about 2001?

I don't think that the owners cared about the problem. Do I think there were more guys than Canseco doing them in the 1980's? Sure probably. Enough for the owners to do anything about come collective bargaining time? No way. Vincent issued that famous memo in 1991 because of the rumors surrounding Canseco and he wanted to take a public stand on the subject. It was really the only thing he could do without the Union's consent barring the "best intrest of baseball clause" but at least it got a responcible commisioners official MLB position on the subject on the books.

[ESPNFan]

Whose to say Baseball didn't have a problem with PED'S in the early 80's ?

Hell, we had Tom House admit to using steroids and Amphetamines in the 70's, and then go on to say that Amphemines were rampant during that time.

That by itself doesn't " prove " that PED'S were a problem in baseball then, but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Again the Tom House song and dance:rolleyes: The guy IMO is full of it and a rather hypocritical self promoter.

By PED's I ment Anabolics because that what Ubiquitous and I were discussing. Amphetamines weren't veiwed as a problem, they were almost an institutionalized tradition. Its only because of Steroids that speed was even addressed by the league.

[Ubiquitous]

I'm not talking about baseball teams and leagues. I'm talking about us the lobsters. In 1989 we didn't care. In 1993 we didn't care. We proved we didn't care in 1998, and we showed it again in 2001 that we didn't care. It wasn't until it was shoved right in front of our face that we finally cared.

Look at game fixing in the majors 100 years ago. Nobody cared for decades. It wasn't until it was shoved right in front of our face that we finally became outraged.

[west coast orange and black]

there are always gonna be things that we lobsters both like and dislike about the game.

[Skin & Bones]

Again the Tom House song and dance:rolleyes: The guy IMO is full of it and a rather hypocritical self promoter.


Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

By PED's I ment Anabolics because that what Ubiquitous and I were discussing. Amphetamines weren't veiwed as a problem, they were almost an institutionalized tradition. Its only because of Steroids that speed was even addressed by the league.

Or maybe they ignored the problem because it was benefitting players and pitchers immensly ?

Hell, Chad Curtis teammate didn't want the steroid issue to be exposed due to the fact that if they were, talk of greenies being banned would arise. And that's what happened.

But I'm sure Curtis was a self- hypocritical promoter too.

[johncap]

I'm not talking about baseball teams and leagues. I'm talking about us the lobsters. In 1989 we didn't care. In 1993 we didn't care. We proved we didn't care in 1998, and we showed it again in 2001 that we didn't care. It wasn't until it was shoved right in front of our face that we finally cared.

Look at game fixing in the majors 100 years ago. Nobody cared for decades. It wasn't until it was shoved right in front of our face that we finally became outraged.
That's because $$$$$ talks and BS walks. I was outraged but I have no platform other than this type to display my outrage. Why would the people in authority be outraged when they were complicit to begin with, and making oodles of cash because of it all?

I really fail to understand exactly what the hell the point of this path is that you keep taking.

[Ubiquitous]

That's because $$$$$ talks and BS walks. I was outraged but I have no platform other than this type to display my outrage. Why would the people in authority be outraged when they were complicit to begin with, and making oodles of cash because of it all?

I really fail to understand exactly what the hell the point of this path is that you keep taking.

ubiquitous: If they went out there and did some on the fly HR derby to decide the winner the fans would have been outraged. It would have been a mockery of the game and the rules of such a venerable institution.

to read and to believe it here at fever, tons of fans knew absolutely for years about ped, but that did not stop them from going to, reading about, posting about and enjoying baseball; they did not consider the game to be a mockery of itself.




The point being that we as fans will put up with a lot of nefarious things as long as we don't see it. But do something in front of our eyes and we will react.



That is my point

[ESPNFan]

I'm not talking about baseball teams and leagues. I'm talking about us the lobsters. In 1989 we didn't care. In 1993 we didn't care. We proved we didn't care in 1998, and we showed it again in 2001 that we didn't care. It wasn't until it was shoved right in front of our face that we finally cared.

Look at game fixing in the majors 100 years ago. Nobody cared for decades. It wasn't until it was shoved right in front of our face that we finally became outraged.

But what we think as fans is influenced by the Leagues and Owners and the Media. If they don't have testing or an outspoken public policy on the topic of Steroids then most people are going to think it must not be a problem. Media was just at fault as well because they should have been asking these questions for us. They are our eyes and ears and they failed the fans as well.
See I think that people don't want to believe these guys that they pay to root for and be entertained by are doing anything wrong until the evidence substantial and is there for all to see. I encountered these drugs in college right around the time when it was really taking off in baseball and learned about them pretty quick. In 1998 I think your right because even knowing what I did, I got caught up in the Sammy/Big Mac drama even though I had my doubts. But on the other hand guys like Canseco didn't fool anyone, just listen to the taunts from the bleachers for proof of that.

[ESPNFan]

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

Maybe if you looked objectively at the guy instead of just cutting and pasting the snippets of him that fit your argument you might learn something.



Or maybe they ignored the problem because it was benefitting players and pitchers immensly ?

Yes I'm sure the owners had files full of statistical analysis on players performace with and without greenies? :rolleyes:

Guys did speed, guys did coke, none of it mattered to the owners or the commisioner until it became a public relations problem.

Hell, Chad Curtis teammate didn't want the steroid issue to be exposed due to the fact that if they were, talk of greenies being banned would arise. And that's what happened.

But I'm sure Curtis was a self- hypocritical promoter too.

No, I found Curtis' comments pretty revealing and have no reason to doubt them. Why would you think I did?

[Skin & Bones]

Maybe if you looked objectively at the guy instead of just cutting and pasting the snippets of him that fit your argument you might learn something.

Alright, let's find something said by someone who knew Tom House.

Ah, here's something: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=494904&postcount=58

But what does somebody who knows and worked out with Tom House know:waving






Yes I'm sure the owners had files full of statistical analysis on players performace with and without greenies? :rolleyes:

Guys did speed, guys did coke, none of it mattered to the owners or the commisioner until it became a public relations problem.


Who knows why the problem was really ignored. It's very possible that it was ignored because they are effective PED'S that were used and benefitting a huge amount of ballplayers. Is it speculation on my part ? Sure, but with the whole steroid issue, and how MLB " ignored " the problem, one would have to ponder if they've done the same thing with other PED'S like Amphetamines.

[Ubiquitous]

See I think that people don't want to believe these guys that they pay to root for and be entertained by are doing anything wrong until the evidence substantial and is there for all to see.


Uh that is my point.

[ESPNFan]

Alright, let's find something said by someone who knew Tom House.

Ah, here's something: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=494904&postcount=58

But what does somebody who knows and worked out with Tom House know:waving

LOL Sidewalks of NY, hmm nothing oddly similar about his opinions eh? :laugh:laugh

And that's great except for the fact that House came out and contradicted himself and retracted his statement. Why didn't you..er Sidewalks ask him why he went back and corrected his statement?

Bottom line is his story has changed on how big he got, like a fisherman's "the one that got away" stories. He gets bigger and bigger and the photo's of him don't bear this claims out.
He also claims that Steroids never helped him with his velocity but some he has some hokey trainign aids that he guarentees will!
And why did he even come out and make his grand announcement in the first place? To further the public's knowladge on the topic? Or to get his name in the press to sell more books video's and pitching school spots?


Who knows why the problem was really ignored. It's very possible that it was ignored because they are effective PED'S that were used and benefitting a huge amount of ballplayers. Is it speculation on my part ? Sure, but with the whole steroid issue, and how MLB " ignored " the problem, one would have to ponder if they've done the same thing with other PED'S like Amphetamines.

Or it could be that ampetamines became really popular around the time of WWII and were thought of as part of the game ever since. They were actually an over the counter substance with a variety of accepted uses and just never thought of anything more than something guys use to help with a long season much like they used them during the war for getting over long periods of activity with little rest.

Whats more plausable? A institutionalised helper who use was tolerated or a super pill whos effects on the game must be defended by ownership at all costs?

But your so desireous to justify the anabolicly aided accomplishments of guys today that we get these "players always cheat" sermons and over and over for months and months and you'll never even consider anything that doesn't support this crusade.

[Skin & Bones]

And that's great except for the fact that House came out and contradicted himself and retracted his statement.

House actually retracted his statement regarding steroids and HGH being rampant in clubhouses, not his own steroid/Amphetamines use.

But hey, people change, Jose Canseco went from saying 85% of the majorleaguers were juiced, to 50%. And you don't really want to compare Jose Canseco's credibility to Tom House's. Half of what is in Canseco's book has been proven to be false.

Bottom line is his story has changed on how big he got, like a fisherman's "the one that got away" stories. He gets bigger and bigger and the photo's of him don't bear this claims out.

Ah, now ESPN believes he may be making it up, because according to him, pictures he found at gooGle images didn't agree with the fact that House gained 30 pounds of muscle. So he's going around lying to everyone then. Admitting to be a heavy druggie is all a ploy to sell books, and land more jobs. Wow, Maybe the same is with Canseco ?:dance


And why did he even come out and make his grand announcement in the first place? To further the public's knowladge on the topic? Or to get his name in the press to sell more books video's and pitching school spots?

Actually he came out with his admission due to the fact that he wanted to warn young athletes about the dangers of steroid abuse. I don't see how admitting that you were a flagrant drug cheat will help you sell more books, or land more jobs, or get anymore respect for that matter, but hey whatever floats your boat. Well, Canseco was able to sell some books, of course though his book was pretty much specifically written about his steroid abuse, where as House to my knowledge hasn't written anything of such.

Or it could be that ampetamines became really popular around the time of WWII and were thought of as part of the game ever since. They were actually an over the counter substance with a variety of accepted uses and just never thought of anything more than something guys use to help with a long season much like they used them during the war for getting over long periods of activity with little rest.

Yeah, and maybe the reason why these drugs were tolerated had to do with the fact that they clearly enhanced performance ?

You had anti-doping Expert Gary Wadler who gave greenies to swimmers, throwers, runners, etc and said they showed a massive increase in performance.

Gee, I wonder why they were accepted ?:cool:

And Just for laughs, here's something a trainer had to say about Amphetamines:The trainer, who spoke anonymously, said amphetamines "are more performance-enhancing than steroids." He said, "An average ballplayer on steroids is still an average ballplayer, with a little more power. An average ballplayer on greenies has increased awareness, increased hand-eye coordination and increased energy."

http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-spflash164116960jan16,0,5743176.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists

Ah, but I'm sure he's just an apologist whose trying to excuse steroid cheats behavior by pointing out the obvious fact that Greenies are effective PED'S. Infact, Gary Wadler is the same. :laugh

But your so desireous to justify the anabolicly aided accomplishments of guys today that we get these "players always cheat" sermons and over and over for months and months and you'll never even consider anything that doesn't support this crusade

I hope you looked in the mirror when you posted this. The only one making excuses is you. For what reason is anyone's guess.

[Skin & Bones]

Looking at the Baseball Fundamentals section of this board, House and his work seems respected there. I guess ESPN should go there and tell them about what a lying hypocrite he really is :noidea

[ESPNFan]

And that's great except for the fact that House came out and contradicted himself and retracted his statement.

House actually retracted his statement regarding steroids and HGH being rampant in clubhouses, not his own steroid/Amphetamines use.

But hey, people change, Jose Canseco went from saying 85% of the majorleaguers were juiced, to 50%. And you don't really what to compare Jose Canseco's credibility to Tom House's. Half of what is in Canseco's book has been proven to be false.

Bottom line is his story has changed on how big he got, like a fisherman's "the one that got away" stories. He gets bigger and bigger and the photo's of him don't bear this claims out.

Ah, now ESPN believes he may be making it up, because according to him, pictures he found at gooGle images didn't agree with the fact that House gained 30 pounds of muscle. So he's going around lying to everyone then. Admitting to be a heavy druggie is all a ploy. Wow, Maybe the same is with Canseco ?:dance


And why did he even come out and make his grand announcement in the first place? To further the public's knowladge on the topic? Or to get his name in the press to sell more books video's and pitching school spots?

Actually he came out with his admission due to the fact that he wanted to warn young athletes about the dangers of steroid abuse. I don't see how admitting that you were a flagrant drug cheat will help you sell more books, or land more jobs, or get anymore respect for that matter, but hey whatever floats your boat. Well, Canseco was able to sell some books, of course though his book was pretty much specifically written about his steroid abuse, where as House to my knowledge hasn't written anything of such.

Or it could be that ampetamines became really popular around the time of WWII and were thought of as part of the game ever since. They were actually an over the counter substance with a variety of accepted uses and just never thought of anything more than something guys use to help with a long season much like they used them during the war for getting over long periods of activity with little rest.

Yeah, and maybe the reason why these drugs were tolerated had to do with the fact that they clearly enhanced performance ?

You had anti-doping Expert Gary Wadler who gave greenies to swimmers, throwers, runners, etc and said they showed a massive increase in performance.

Gee, I wonder why they were accepted ?:cool:

And Just for laughs, here's something a trainer had to say about Amphetamines:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-spflash164116960jan16,0,5743176.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists

Ah, but I'm sure he's just an apologist whose trying to excuse steroid cheats behavior by pointing out the obvious fact that Greenies are effective PED'S. Infact, Gary Wadler is the same. :laugh

But your so desireous to justify the anabolicly aided accomplishments of guys today that we get these "players always cheat" sermons and over and over for months and months and you'll never even consider anything that doesn't support this crusade

I hope you looked in the mirror when you posted this. The only one making excuses is you. For what reason is anyone's guess.

Yeah I know but the question you asked HG was if the orginal statement was true.


http://www.jumpusa.com/tomhousevideos.html
http://www.jumpusa.com/Baseball.jpg

Hitters can work out with former Oakland A's and currently NY Yankee Jason Giambi's strength trainer Bob Alejo. Do the same plyoball workout as home-run record holder Mark McGuire and build up bat speed and slugging power. Terrific for abs, trunk, back, and arm strength!

Look in awe as Tom house shows how the Plyoball can add 5mph to your fastball and increase your hitting power 25%!!! And who is his expert on this spectacular tape? Jason Giambi's strenght and conditioning coach from the A's and Yankees. Im sure he knew nothign about Jasons Steroid use and just gave Giambi the Plyoball right? Hey the Plyoball worked for McGuire right? This stuff is a bad TV infomercial from being comedy material. And at only 169bucks is a very cheap joke no? :laugh :laugh :laugh

And if Tom House was 5'9" 225 as he claimed in ESPN (which is 40 lbs over his normal weight not the 30 lbs he claimed before, notice the fish story theme here?) then where is the evidence? Do you know how Big 5'9" 225 is? Thats Massive. He said he took them for a while where is the evidence, not one photo of him looking as jacked as he claimed?

Just for refrence this is a picture of Diego Sanchez, a UFC fighter who is 5'10 and fights at weights topping 185.
House claimed to be 30-40lbs of solid muscle heavier and an inch shorter.
http://www.sherdog.com/_images/pictures/4914.jpg

Here is House's own gallery.
http://www.tomhouse.com/gallery.asp

Ummmmm my question remains.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbm0EuJQkQc


LOL and why did you omit the quotes from Dr. Yeasilis about knowing how steroids would help a ball player but not being able to scientificly explain who ampetamines would help them?

You leave out all the drawbacks of amphetamine addiction and its side effects actually degrading performance, the players who say they don't help, the people who said that this year lots of players realised they were just placebos. Or the players who say they don't increase performance just help with fatigue. Or how bout mentioning the players who felt like they were having a heart atttack after they took them. Thats some super enhancement right there. You never mention any of these things. Why is that?

And as far as looking in the mirror goes I know I dont have anything about my past on this site to be ashamed of. :waving

[ESPNFan]

Looking at the Baseball Fundamentals section of this board, House and his work seems respected there. I guess ESPN should go there and tell them about what a lying hypocrite he really is :noidea

Am I calling him a lying Hypocrite in relation to his pitching knowledge?

[Skin & Bones]

Yeah I know but the question you asked HG was if the orginal statement was true.


http://www.jumpusa.com/tomhousevideos.html
http://www.jumpusa.com/Baseball.jpg



Look in awe as Tom house shows how the Plyoball can add 5mph to your fastball and increase your hitting power 25%!!! And who is his expert on this spectacular tape? Jason Giambi's strenght and conditioning coach from the A's and Yankees. Im sure he knew nothign about Jasons Steroid use and just gave Giambi the Plyoball right? Hey the Plyoball worked for McGuire right? This stuff is a bad TV infomercial from being comedy material. And at only 169bucks is a very cheap joke no? :laugh :laugh :laugh

As I said before, if you think Tom House is such a hypocrite, fraud, liar, and whatever else, your going against what most people think.


But hey, maybe you are right and they are wrong, as I said before, maybe you should inform all the Tom House fans out there.

And if Tom House was 5'9" 225 as he claimed in ESPN (which is 40 lbs over his normal weight not the 30 lbs he claimed before, notice the fish story theme here?) then where is the evidence? Do you know how Big 5'9" 225 is? Thats Massive. He said he took them for a while where is the evidence?

Interesting, because In The 2006 ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia, they have house listed at 5'11 weighing 190 Pounds. Then again, they also have Caminiti listed at 6'0 200 pounds, without his weight changing much throughout his career. Maybe he lied about his steroid use to get his name on the papers too ?

After all, unlike House, before his admission, not many knew or cared about who he was.

LOL and why did you omit the quotes from Dr. Yeasilis about knowing how steroids would help a ball player but not being able to scientificly explain who ampetamines would help them?

Scientically explain how they would help them ?

Geez, faster reaction time could mean faster batspeed am I right ? Could it also be faster pitch speed, which is why Hiddegem said himself that he's seen pitchers increase the velocity of their fastball and hitters report quicker batspeed ?

And I didn't omit Anything Yeasilis has said. I do believe he has an agenda, and many tend to believe a lot of what he says is more of a mainstream view of steroids, and highly recommend books by Author L. Rea.

You leave out all the drawbacks of amphetamine addiction and its side effects actually degrading performance, the players who say they don't help, the people who said that this year lots of players realised they were just placebos. Or the players who say they don't increase performance just help with fatigue. Or how bout mentioning the laers who felt liek they were having a heart atttack after they took them. Thats some super enhancement right there. You never mention any of these things. Why is that?


Geez, well some had negative reactions to these illegal drugs, what a surprise ?

Sounds like Gary Sheffield and Tom House who used steroids and said they didn't enhance their performance at all. Infact, House basically said it hindered his performance. Jesus, did it ever occur to you that everyone does drugs differently, and benefits from them differently ?

Or what about Arthur De Vany, a scientist, athlete, and professor of economics, who wrote a lengthy detailed statistical research paper on why steroids don't really benefit homerun hitters much.

http://www.arthurdevany.com/webstuff/images/DeVanyHomeRunMS.pdf

Just to add something interesting here...Because I believe these attacks are a combination of ignorance, sloppy journalism, or possible racial prejudice (see the total lack of articles regarding alleged steroid use by Mark McGuire), I have challenged Bruce Jenkins of the S.F. Chronicle and Jon Sarecono of USA Today, two of the "accusers", to do their job and research the issue of whether or not steroid use contributes in any measurable way towards hand/eye coordination; ability to judge, in say 2-3 seconds, whether or not one should swing at a ball thrown from 60 feet, 6 inches away at 90 miles per hour and to decide that said ball is in the strike zone. They also were requested to demonstrate and how much more distance, if any, a ball will travel if hit by a MLB player using steroids.

I sent to Mr. Jenkins and Mr. Saraceno an article written by Arthur De Vany, Professor Emeritus, Institute For Mathematical Sciences, University of California, Irvine, CA. (attached) that, in my opinion, totally refutes a connection between "use of steroids" and the ability to hit home runs. For some reason, (probably because they were caught with "their pants down" or laziness or apathy), Jenkins and Saraceno never responded to me or made any reference to Professor De Vany's presentation in any of their columns. Their failure to "explain" and cite scientific proof and/or statistical evidence to support their judgment that Bond's alleged use of steroids is directly related to his home run production, after being provided with Professor De Vany's detailed, statistical, refutation of their allegations, is not only telling but also demonstrates that they are cowards and lazy ,and that they choose to hide behind their one sided, subjective, positions rather than seek out and report

http://www.arthurdevany.com/archives/sports/index.html

Did it ever occur to you that different people have different beliefs on what drugs do for athletes ? Because Aaron may have not liked greenies doesn't mean they don't work. And because this guy believes steroids don't benefit homerun hitters doesn't mean they don't.

And there's no reason to turn to alternatives when there's undetectable Amphetamines readily available, just ask anti-doping expert Gary Wadler.

[Skin & Bones]

Am I calling him a lying Hypocrite in relation to his pitching knowledge?

Well, what else would you be questioning him about

If it's ethics, then I agree, the guy obviously was a flagrant drug cheat and in no way shape or form benefitted from telling the public about it.

[ESPNFan]

And I didn't omit Anything Yeasilis has said. I do believe he has an agenda, and many tend to believe a lot of what he says is more of a mainstream view of steroids, and highly recommend books by Author L. Rea.


I find it highly hysterical that a man who is recognised around the world as the formost authority on Drugs and sports has "an agenda" but Arthur De Vany who does interviews on T-Nation doesnt. :laugh :laugh

I provided my proof of why I think House is wrong, where is your proof of Dr. Yesalis's grand conspirasy?

And try to be breif I'm gettign tired of repeating myself for months on end now.

[Skin & Bones]

I find it highly hysterical that a man who is recognised around the world as the formost authority on Drugs and sports has "an agenda" but Arthur De Vany who does interviews on T-Nation doesnt. :laugh :laugh

I provided my proof of why I think House is wrong, where is your proof of Dr. Yesalis's grand conspirasy?

And try to be breif I'm gettign tired of repeating myself for months on end now.

Whoever said DR. Yesalis was wrong ? LOL

Nobody is denying steroids enhance performance, I'm just pointing out that others believe differently.

And it figures you would bash Arthur, who provided statistical evidence to his arguements, where as DR. Y just says " they improve batspeed and pitch speed ", without going into indepth detail on how they do that, and how you get steroids to do that.

Be that as it may, I know steroids enhance performance, so I don't need DR. Y to tell me it does.

And yes, many people think Dr. Y has an agenda. His constant bashing of the modern day athlete is pretty obvious. Your talking about a guy who once said " NO player today could hold someone like Roberto Clemente's jock ".

[ESPNFan]

Whoever said DR. Yesalis was wrong ? LOL

Nobody is denying steroids enhance performance, I'm just pointing out that others believe differently.

And it figures you would bash Arthur, who provided statistical evidence to his arguements, where as DR. Y just says " they improve batspeed and pitch speed ", without going into indepth detail on how they do that, and how you get steroids to do that.

Be that as it may, I know steroids enhance performance, so I don't need DR. Y to tell me it does.

And yes, many people think Dr. Y has an agenda. His constant bashing of the modern day athlete is pretty obvious. Your talking about a guy who once said " NO player today could hold someone like Roberto Clemente's jock ".

I asked you to give me proof of his conspiracy, not that he was wrong. If you dont have proof just say it instead ot trying to deflect the question with misdirection.

Your trying to tell me that Dr. Yesalis has never explained how steroids work? Maybe not for a internet know it all who has never picked up one of his books which is obviously the case here. Dr. Yesalis didn't get to be a respected authority at Penn State without putting his knowladge to paper.

Again I'll ask you where this proof of Dr. Yesalis' agenda is and a link to where you got that quote.

[Skin & Bones]

I asked you to give me proof of his conspiracy, not that he was wrong. If you dont have proof just say it instead ot trying to deflect the question with misdirection.

Your trying to tell me that Dr. Yesalis has never explained how steroids work? Maybe not for a internet know it all who has never picked up one of his books which is obviously the case here. Dr. Yesalis didn't get to be a respected authority at Penn State without putting his knowladge to paper.

Again I'll ask you where this proof of Dr. Yesalis' agenda is and a link to where you got that quote.

Actually I have read some of his books. And he's never specifically proven how steroids better a hitter and pitchers performance. Unless he did in a book I didn't read. Be that as it may, I don't need him to tell me it does, athletes have told me it does, and it's pretty obvious looking at some of these athletes statistics.

And I don't have " proof " that he has an agenda, I just believe he does. I and others prefer to read Author L. Rea's books because he thinks outside the box, and makes you think more. Dr. Y has a much more mainstream view of steroids, IMO.

[ESPNFan]

Actually I have read some of his books. And he's never specifically proven how steroids better a hitter and pitchers performance. Unless he did in a book I didn't read. Be that as it may, I don't need him to tell me it does, athletes have told me it does, and it's pretty obvious looking at some of these athletes statistics.

And I don't have " proof " that he has an agenda, I just believe he does. I and others prefer to read Author L. Rea's books because he thinks outside the box, and makes you think more. Dr. Y has a much more mainstream view of steroids, IMO.


So you don't have proof. Thought so.
I'm familiar with Rea's work and its not something that somebody in the scientific community would call on.
i'm not dismissing his knowladge but you seriously can't compare the two. The scientific expertise that Dr. Yesalis has and has been honored for time and time again throught his career is unmatched in this feild.
You don't have to stick a needle in your arm to know how thigns work.

And I'm still waiting for you to produce that quote.
Now where did you get that quote? Or do you just think he said that as well?

[Skin & Bones]

So you don't have proof. Thought so.
I'm familiar with Rea's work and its not something that somebody in the scientific community would call on.
i'm not dismissing his knowladge but you seriously can't compare the two. The scientific expertise that Dr. Yesalis has and has been honored for time and time again throught his career is unmatched in this feild.
You don't have to stick a needle in your arm to know how thigns work.

And I'm still waiting for you to produce that quote.
Now where did you get that quote? Or do you just think he said that as well?

I'm not comparing the two, I've just read Rea's work before, and I liked it better. That's my opinion.

I know you don't have to stick a needle in your arm to know steroids or other PED'S benefits, but usually the ones who do, knows how it effected them personally.

And the quote your talking about I assume is the Clemente quote, I can't find it now, But I found one on Mantle.


"They've opened a Pandora's box,' says Dr. Charles Yesalis, a Penn State professor, international expert on steroids in sports and such a baseball fan that he once said, "I'm bothered by the fact these chemically enhanced athletes are breaking records of my idol, Mickey Mantle, where my strong belief is these clowns couldn't carry Mantle's jockstrap." Yesalis now says, "What are they going to do, put two asterisks on everything that happened in the 1990s and forward? Maybe they should because what this testing confirms is what we started seeing as long ago as 1994: a change in performance along with a change in 'body habitat,' as we call it."

And he said this in 2003 too, with no evidence that any of the " records " broken were chemically aided or not.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_47_227/ai_110737379

I believe the guy is 100% biased against the modern athlete, and has more of a mainstream view of steroids. That's my opinion, and it will never change. And I'm not the only one who thinks that way of him.

[ESPNFan]

I'm not comparing the two, I've just read Rea's work before, and I liked it better. That's my opinion.

I know you don't have to stick a needle in your arm to know steroids or other PED'S benefits, but usually the ones who do, knows how it effected them personally.

And the quote your talking about I assume is the Clemente quote, I can't find it now, But I found one on Mantle.




And he said this in 2003 too, with no evidence that any of the " records " broken were chemically aided or not.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_47_227/ai_110737379

I believe the guy is 100% biased against the modern athlete, and has more of a mainstream view of steroids. That's my opinion, and it will never change. And I'm not the only one who thinks that way of him.

Well how many guys today are there that you think could hold Mantle's Jock strap? Chemically aided or not? And I'm sure you'll never find that Clemente quote because I never believe it exsisted. It sounds like you substituted Clemete's name in to the quote becaue he is less of a all time great, a player who's skills wouldn't compare as favorablely with athletes today as Mantle's.
Also taking out "Chemically enhanced" and leaving it as "NO PLAYER TODAY" makes it a much more inflamitory quote as well.
Nice try.

And try reading the article. his comments are in responce to the 5-7% (and a very good possiblity much more) of the league failing the "informational drug tests" which was stated in the second paragraph of the article. I'd say that's a fair amout of evidence, and given what we know now, his statements were fairly accurate.

[Skin & Bones]

Well how many guys today are there that you think could hold Mantle's Jock strap? Chemically aided or not? And I'm sure you'll never find that Clemente quote because I never believe it exsisted. It sounds like you substituted Clemete's name in to the quote becaue he is less of a all time great, a player who's skills wouldn't compare as favorablely with athletes today as Mantle's.
Also taking out "Chemically enhanced" and leaving it as "NO PLAYER TODAY" makes it a much more inflamitory quote as well.
Nice try.

And try reading the article. his comments are in responce to the 5-7% (and a very good possiblity much more) of the league failing the "informational drug tests" which was stated in the second paragraph of the article. I'd say that's a fair amout of evidence, and given what we know now, his statements were fairly accurate.

No, the Clemente quote did exist, and actually Clemente is considered by the casual fan as an all-time great, and he is great, just not statistically at Mantle level. I highly doubt Dr. Y. evaluates a player outside of BA, HR'S, and RBI'S.

Also taking out "Chemically enhanced" and leaving it as "NO PLAYER TODAY" makes it a much more inflamitory quote as well.

So what, he said this back in 2003 before it was ever proven that any of the players who broke his " records " used steroids. And till this day it hasn't been proven. Dr. Y. obviously said this because he is indeed biased against the modern day athlete. He also assumes ( like many) that Mantle was squeaky clean. But I won't get into that arguement right now. Not worth my time or effort.

I'd say that's a fair amout of evidence, and given what we know now, his statements were fairly accurate

Right, but none of this was known when he said it.

Funny because of he was one of those anti-pre intergration people, you would bashing him constantly if he said something like " Ted Williams wouldn't survive in today's game ".

[ESPNFan]

No, the Clemente quote did exist, and actually Clemente is considered by the casual fan as an all-time great, and he is great, just not statistically at Mantle level. I highly doubt Dr. Y. evaluates a player outside of BA, HR'S, and RBI'S.

Also taking out "Chemically enhanced" and leaving it as "NO PLAYER TODAY" makes it a much more inflamitory quote as well.

So what, he said this back in 2003 before it was ever proven that any of the players who broke his " records " used steroids. And till this day it hasn't been proven. Dr. Y. obviously said this because he is indeed biased against the modern day athlete. He also assumes ( like many) that Mantle was squeaky clean. But I won't get into that arguement right now. Not worth my time or effort.

I'd say that's a fair amout of evidence, and given what we know now, his statements were fairly accurate

Right, but none of this was known when he said it.

Funny because of he was one of those anti-pre intergration people, you would bashing him constantly if he said something like " Ted Williams wouldn't survive in today's game ".

So he was right and you still can't give him credit because you believe that he has a bias agiant todays players and as we all know here, the only reason you try over and over to position yourself as some kind of expert on the subject and then go to ridiculous lenghts(ground testicals anyone:crazy) to cast past players in as negative light as possible is as a counter balance to the steroid contraversy of today.

You'd just think that after 3 or four go rounds you would have gotten tired of it but maybe you enjoy reruns. Hey what ever floats your boat. :D

[Skin & Bones]

So he was right and you still can't give him credit because you believe that he has a bias agiant todays players and as we all know here, the only reason you try over and over to position yourself as some kind of expert on the subject and then go to ridiculous lenghts(ground testicals anyone:crazy) to cast past players in as negative light as possible is as a counter balance to the steroid contraversy of today.

You'd just think that after 3 or four go rounds you would have gotten tired of it but maybe you enjoy reruns. Hey what ever floats your boat. :D

1.) I never said I was an expert on this subject. I just state the facts, and when I have an opinion, I let you know by typing " IMO ".

2.) He actually was wrong. As far as I know Mantle doesn't hold any records shattered by any admitted or alleged steroid user. To me it sounds like he was going on an unnecessary rant.