Post- 2006 Current Hall of Famers

[STLCards2]

In light of 2006 stats, which current players would be deserving of Cooperstown only if their careers ended today,not looking at future projections.

C
Mike Piazza
Ivan Rodriguez

1B
Jeff Bagwell (technicaly active)
Frank Thomas


2B
Craig Biggio


3B
Alex Rodriguez


SS
Derek Jeter

LF
Manny Ramirez
Barry Bonds

CF
Ken Griffey Jr.

RF
Gary Sheffield
Vlad Guererro


SP
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Tom Glavine
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

RP
Mariano Rivera
Trevor Hoffman

On the fence: I could go either way right now on C. Jones, Kent, or Thome. If I had to chose, I would lean to putting all three in.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Chipper Jones on the fence? That's offensive. :p

[538280]

I agree, Sam. Chipper is probably only behind Mathews and Schmidt as far as offense from third base-and he's not slowing down. His season this year was awesome too. Chipper may not quite be one of the top 10 3Bme of all time right now, because his career is still short by historical standards, he's not a good defensive 3B, and he played a lot of time in the OF, but he should be an easy HOFer.

[STLCards2]

I agree, Sam. Chipper is probably only behind Mathews and Schmidt as far as offense from third base-and he's not slowing down. His season this year was awesome too. Chipper may not quite be one of the top 10 3Bme of all time right now, because his career is still short by historical standards, he's not a good defensive 3B, and he played a lot of time in the OF, but he should be an easy HOFer.

You're probably right, which is why I said "I would lean to put him in." I guess all of those injuries and poor defense realy stick out in my mind. I love Chipper though, and agree he probably is a solid HOd guy.

[SamtheBravesFan]

You're probably right, which is why I said "I would lean to put him in." I guess all of those injuries and poor defense realy stick out in my mind. I love Chipper though, and agree he probably is a solid HOd guy.

That's better. ;)

I also think that if Andruw Jones's career ended right now, he'd be a Dale Murphy type borderline.

[STLCards2]

That's better. ;)

I also think that if Andruw Jones's career ended right now, he'd be a Dale Murphy type borderline.


I think A. Jones is borderline out as of right now. I have little doubt he will cross over into the "yes" zone in a few seasons.

[Skin & Bones]

I'd personally add Nomar Garciaparra.

[Honus Wagner]

strong no to sheffield
pedro, smoltz, mussina and schilling borderline

[hudsonharden]

I'm a HUGE Mussina fan, but with no ring, less than 300 wins, and no Cy Young, I can't justify putting him in.

What about Jason Giambi?

[Senor Octobre]

[QUOTE=pedro... borderline[/QUOTE]

Pedro borderline? Wow.

[Honus Wagner]

if bob caruthers isn't in, i can't elect pedro

[EvanAparra]

if bob caruthers isn't in, i can't elect pedro
How do you call Pedro borderline but not say anythng about Schilling or any of the other guys?

[Brad Harris]

The "Best of the Rest" feature doesn't mean these guys are Hall-worthy, but just have the best chances/career-to-date of those under the line at this point in time. Tried to avoid players with fewer than 10 seasons under their belt. Candidates that were hard to leave off include Bobby Abreu, Jason Giambi, Todd Helton, Andrew Jones and Ichiro Suzuki.

Catchers
Mike Piazza
Ivan Rodriguez
Best of the Rest: Jorge Posada

First Basemen
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Jim Thome
Best of the Rest: Carlos Delgado

Second Basemen
Craig Biggio
Jeff Kent
Best of the Rest: Mark Loretta

Third Basemen
Chipper Jones
Best of the Rest: Scott Rolen

Shortstops
Derek Jeter
Alex Rodriguez
Best of the Rest: Miguel Tejada

Left Fielders
Manny Ramirez
Barry Bonds
Best of the Rest: Brian Giles

Center Fielders
Jim Edmonds
Ken Griffey Jr.
Best of the Rest: Bernie Williams

Right Fielders
Gary Sheffield
Best of the Rest: Vladimir Guerrero

Starters
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Best of the Rest: Andy Pettitte

Relievers
Mariano Rivera
Trevor Hoffman
Best of the Rest: Billy Wagner

[Honus Wagner]

How do you call Pedro borderline but not say anythng about Schilling or any of the other guys?

i did, read my post above

[Los Bravos]

[...]he's not a good defensive 3B[...]I would say Chipper is a good, but not great, third baseman. Not Scott Rolen, but a cut above average. He's actually improved since his little vacation in left field. He has a terrific arm. He makes that charge in-barehand throw play with consistent accuracy and speed.

Good original list and good commentary on the bubble candidates and their immediate future prospects :clapping

[EvanAparra]

i did, read my post above


Missed that. I just find it hard to believe that people wouldn't vote for Petey, even if his career were to end today.

[dgarza]

Albert Pujols is probably the only player with less than 10 years playing that I can say I'd put him in if he stopped now. I don't think there's anyone else I can say that about.

[dgarza]

I'd also add Todd Helton

[Brad Harris]

Helton has now played 10 seasons.

As for Pujols...it's awfully tempting, but that's not a precedent I'd like to set. How many players have a great first 6 years or so to their career, only to drop off over time, or get injured? I mean...I'm sure someone thought Tony Conigliaro or Herb Score or Al Rosen was Hall-worthy early in their career.

Once a player surpasses the minimum eligibility requirements (i.e. 10 years), then I think you can waive those concerns. A ten-year run of excellence - no matter how much longer the career - is pretty much enough for me to say a guy is Hall-worthy. I almost included Ichiro in here (and will, as soon as he plays his 10th season, in all likelihood), but decided to stick to my guns.

When talking about "current" players, looking at guys with less than 10 years of service time requires too much speculation and not enough analysis.

[dgarza]

As for Pujols...it's awfully tempting, but that's not a precedent I'd like to set. How many players have a great first 6 years or so to their career, only to drop off over time, or get injured? I mean...I'm sure someone thought Tony Conigliaro or Herb Score or Al Rosen was Hall-worthy early in their career.


Since this thread is about "if their careers ended today,not looking at future projections," I'm OK with Pujols where he's at now, with no projections what so ever. If the 10 year rule was dropped and Pujol quit today, I'd put him in the Hall, no questions asked, he's done way more than enough for me. Now, he could go on in his career and do not so great, then I'd re-evaluate him, but that's not what this thread is about.

And I say Rosen is HOF material.

[Brad Harris]

I'm not disputing whether Pujols' career-to-date is Hall-worthy (nor whether Rosen is a good candidate or note). The point is that if a player's career ended today, no player with fewer than 10 seasons under his belt would ever be eligible unless the rules were changed; and that's not something we can speculate on.

I disagree with the 10-year rule, but it's there. Pujols isn't eligible for this exercise.

[538280]

I would say Chipper is a good, but not great, third baseman. Not Scott Rolen, but a cut above average. He's actually improved since his little vacation in left field. He has a terrific arm. He makes that charge in-barehand throw play with consistent accuracy and speed.


I don't see Chipper play thrid base on a regular basis, only once in a while, but it's always appeared to me that he is very slow, doesn't have the best reactions, and doesn't have good range. Statistical measures have shown him to be a bad 3Bman as well. I still really like Chipper though, I think he's a great and underrated hitter, and certainly should be in the HOF even if his career ended now. Like I said, he's arguably the 3rd best offensive 3Bman of all time, behind only Schmidt and Mathews. To me, he's probably 4th, still behind Brett, but he should pass Brett soon.

[DoubleX]

These are the players I would put in right now (not counting Jeff Bagwell, who's career probably ended in 2005).

Catcher (2): Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez

First Base (1): Frank Thomas

Second Base (2): Craig Biggio, Jeff Kent

Shortstop (2): Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter

Third Base (1): Chipper Jones

Left Field (2): Barry Bonds, Manny Ramirez

Center Field (1): Ken Griffey Jr

Right Field (1): Gary Sheffield

Starting Pitcher (5): Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine

Relief Pitcher (2): Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman

These are the players that I see near fence or quickly approaching the fence:

Jim Thome
Carlos Delgado
Albert Pujols (at this point, I believe he just needs to get to 10 years)
Vladimir Guerrero
Jim Edmonds
Andruw Jones
Scott Rolen
Nomar Garciaparra
Miguel Tejada
Bernie Williams
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Mike Mussina
Billy Wagner

I'm probably forgetting a player or two

[Senor Octobre]

mine...

Catcher - M. Piazza, I. Rodriguez

1st Base - F. Thomas, J. Thome

2nd Base - C. Biggio, J. Kent

3rd Base - C. Jones

Shortstop - D. Jeter, A. Rodriguez

LF - B. Bonds

CF - K. Griffey

RF - V. Guerrero, M. Ramirez, G. Sheffield

Starting Pitchers

R. Clemens
T. Glavine
R. Johnson
G. Maddux
P. Martinez

Relief Pitchers

M. Rivera

Close but still not quite there yet in my eyes...

C. Delgado
J. Edmonds
T. Hoffman
A. Jones
M. Mussina
C. Schilling
J. Smoltz
O. Vizquel
B. Williams

Garciaparra, Helton, Rolen ,Tejada and Wagner are a tier below them

[cbenson5]

I don't see Chipper play thrid base on a regular basis, only once in a while, but it's always appeared to me that he is very slow, doesn't have the best reactions, and doesn't have good range. Statistical measures have shown him to be a bad 3Bman as well. I still really like Chipper though, I think he's a great and underrated hitter, and certainly should be in the HOF even if his career ended now. Like I said, he's arguably the 3rd best offensive 3Bman of all time, behind only Schmidt and Mathews. To me, he's probably 4th, still behind Brett, but he should pass Brett soon.


I don't have your baseball statistical background and i am curious what metrics you are referring to in regards to Chipper's defense. I have noticed his fielding percentage and range factor is slightly above average for a third baseman.

I have watched almost every game Chipper has played. I have always thought he had excellent range to his left, especially before his injury problems developed. I remember racing to his left to take away hits in his ealry years back when Blauser was the shorstop. He has a strong accurate throwing arm, and he fields the bunt extremely well even now. I have always thought his only real weakness as a third baseman was balls down the line. He might not get to as many of those as he should. I think Chipper is a good fielding third baseman, but even if he falls short of that, he is far from a liability.

[538280]

I don't have your baseball statistical background and i am curious what metrics you are referring to in regards to Chipper's defense. I have noticed his fielding percentage and range factor is slightly above average for a third baseman.

I have watched almost every game Chipper has played. I have always thought he had excellent range to his left, especially before his injury problems developed. I remember racing to his left to take away hits in his ealry years back when Blauser was the shorstop. He has a strong accurate throwing arm, and he fields the bunt extremely well even now. I have always thought his only real weakness as a third baseman was balls down the line. He might not get to as many of those as he should. I think Chipper is a good fielding third baseman, but even if he falls short of that, he is far from a liability.

Just some statistics:

Through 2001, Jones averaged 1.99 defensive Win Shares/1000 innings. This is a D letter grade in his own time, and would be the worst among any players with 1000 or more defensive innings by a large margin (though as of 2001 Chipper was just under 10000 defensive innings. Dean Palmer, who also just misses 10000, was also lower at 1.90).

BP's FRAA has him -167 runs over his career, and -143 as a thrid baseman. His career Rate2 at third base is 89, which means by their calculations he would be 11 runs below an average 3Bman to his team for every 100 games played at third base.

Every statistical metric says Chipper has been a horrible 3Bman, but they also agree that he is a certain HOFer, because his offense has been tremendous (I think he is very underrated offensively, actually).

[SamtheBravesFan]

Every statistical metric says Chipper has been a horrible 3Bman, but they also agree that he is a certain HOFer, because his offense has been tremendous (I think he is very underrated offensively, actually).

I've always thought that, really. The good thing about Chipper, I think, is that even though he's a horrible fielder, that doesn't really cost the Braves any games. At least I don't think so. :clapping

[Brad Harris]

I don't see Chipper play thrid base on a regular basis, only once in a while, but it's always appeared to me that he is very slow, doesn't have the best reactions, and doesn't have good range. Statistical measures have shown him to be a bad 3Bman as well. I still really like Chipper though, I think he's a great and underrated hitter, and certainly should be in the HOF even if his career ended now. Like I said, he's arguably the 3rd best offensive 3Bman of all time, behind only Schmidt and Mathews. To me, he's probably 4th, still behind Brett, but he should pass Brett soon.

Chipper's defensive value would be the worst of any third baseman in the Hall of Fame. That said, it's not so bad that his overall value is crippled by it. Chipper's offense would be about the median for Hall of Fame third basemen - half are better, half are worse. That said, his rate of offensive production is right up there with Schmidt and Mathews. Chipper's bat will carry him into the Hall someday. For myself, he's already done enough; I think we need to double the number of third basemen in the Hall of Fame anyhow. If his career ended today, he probably wouldn't be selected, but he would merit it.

[dgarza]

I'm not disputing whether Pujols' career-to-date is Hall-worthy (nor whether Rosen is a good candidate or note). The point is that if a player's career ended today, no player with fewer than 10 seasons under his belt would ever be eligible unless the rules were changed; and that's not something we can speculate on.

I disagree with the 10-year rule, but it's there. Pujols isn't eligible for this exercise.
I think Pujols is DESERVING, but know that he is not ELIGIBLE. "Deserving" is what I'm reading from the initial post that this thread is about (at least that's how it's worded, so that's how I'm posting).

I have to add that Ichiro has also just barely broken that "borderline" threshold for me this year (I was assuming that he hadn't earlier). Now, he's not a "no brainer" for me like Pujols is, but he has finally reached a certain level for me.

[Brad Harris]

Putting in any player with just 6 years of major league experience is an extremely dangerous proposition if you hope to safeguard the Hall for the best of the best. It's a fair question whether inducting Babe Ruth would be wise, had his career ended after only 6 years.

[DoubleX]

Putting in any player with just 6 years of major league experience is an extremely dangerous proposition if you hope to safeguard the Hall for the best of the best. It's a fair question whether inducting Babe Ruth would be wise, had his career ended after only 6 years.

Especially since his career would have looked more like Joe Wood or Spud Chandler at that point.

[dgarza]

Putting in any player with just 6 years of major league experience is an extremely dangerous proposition if you hope to safeguard the Hall for the best of the best. It's a fair question whether inducting Babe Ruth would be wise, had his career ended after only 6 years.
While I wouldn't use the word "dangerous," I see where you are coming from. However, I don't see how Pujol wouldn't be one of the best of the best even with just 6 years. I'm pretty sure I would put DiMaggio in with just his first 6 years. There are not too many players I feel comfortable putting in the Hall who have less than 10 years, but there certainly are some.

I don't feel that a player has to nesseccarily "prove" himself by playing 10 years. I believe some player can "prove" themselvesf in less. More power to them. I just don't buy into "you can only be truely great if you play 10 years." It seems to place doubts on human achievemnts. I think a few can transcend that impossed limitation.

[Brad Harris]

I just don't buy into "you can only be truely great if you play 10 years."

I certainly agree.

[jsmets92]

If Guerrero retires now, he has a .329 average and 338 home runs. He's only thirty and being a legitamate 5 tool player he is borderline now and will solidify his status very soon.