Polo Grounds: Viaduct, Speedway and Coogan's Bluff.

[runningshoes]

Can someone provide me with information on these "features" surrounding the Polo Grounds and how fans utilized them to watch games in 1908.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Can someone provide me with information on these "features" surrounding the Polo Grounds and how fans utilized them to watch games in 1908.
The polo grounds viaduct i think you are talking about is the one on 155th street. as far as coogans bluff and the speedway there were located behind homeplate of the polo grounds.the speedway by the way was a road.as far as fans seeing the game from coogans bluff. all they could see was 2nd base and some of the outfield.hopefully this info will help you.

[runningshoes]

The polo grounds viaduct i think you are talking about is the one on 155th street. as far as coogans bluff and the speedway there were located behind homeplate of the polo grounds.the speedway by the way was a road.as far as fans seeing the game from coogans bluff. all they could see was 2nd base and some of the outfield.hopefully this info will help you.

Thanks, Donald

What would they have been able to see from the viaduct and the road?

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Hopefully this diagram will help you out. the road or as they called it the speedway was on coogans bluff behind homeplate.i dont know what fans could have seen from the viaduct on 155th street which was located near the first base side of the polo grounds and the polo grounds parking lot.also the second stadium next to the polo grounds in this diagram is Manhattan field which is wear the new york giants first moved to when they left the original polo grounds.they moved next door for the 1891 season. i dont know when manhattan field was torn down but in later years the manahattan field site was the polo grounds parking lot.You can also see in the diagram the 155th street viaduct on the left side of the diagram. on the other side was the elevated train yard on 157th street or the third base side of the stadium.

[runningshoes]

Do you have any actual photographs of them, Donald?

The wouldn't have to necessarily show the Grounds.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

The bottom photo here shows a view if you were standing on the speedway and coogans bluff looking at the polo grounds. The top photo shows the third base side of the polo grounds(157th street). this photo was taken in the 1940s when the elevated train yard was being torn down for apartments.

[runningshoes]

Perhaps there was a scoreboard up the fans could watch.

The Times describes a "black mass of humanity" that would be showing up for the game and positioning themselves on the viaduct, speedway and the bluff.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

This photo shows the polo grounds site today. you can see the 155th street viaduct in the photo.

[TJH1923]

This photo might also give you a better perspective.

[runningshoes]

That's great, Thanks.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

In this photo you can see the speedway on top of coogans bluff where all of the cars are in he photo.

[StanTheMan]

Ok... Long post coming.... but I can clear up exactly what you could see of the ballpark from Coogan's Bluff, and I am certain I know the date of the "Black Mass of Humanity Quote" form the New York Times. It was no ordinary game, that day.

First the Bluff.

You could see part of the Field From Coogan's Bluff. The Bluff was the Huge rocky hill behind home plate, kind of on the third base side..... The road, at least the part to the extreme left (with the cars on it in the photo above) was BETWEEN the stadium and the Bluff.

From Arnond Hano's Excellent book, "A Day in the Bleachers."......

I should have brought the portable radio. I could climb to the top of Coogan's Bluff, overlooking the ball field to the Northwest, sit on the rocks and grass, and watch second base while I listened to the game. I had done this many times in my youth. My brother and would go to the Polo Grounds during summer recess from school, hoping a boys club or some social group was getting in free. We'd try to duck into line and sit in the upper left field stands with a bunch of other boys......

When we failed to get in, which was about half the time, we'd walk up the wooden stairs that led to the top of Coogan's Bluff on the left field side of the Polo Grounds. There, with a scattered hundred other fans enjoying a sun bath, we'd "watch" the game. All you can see, is the rear portion of the pitchers mound, the area around second base, and a portion of the outfield. But, after a while, you get the hang of it from the noise of the crowd and what the second baseman does.

I remember the first game I saw that way, the Giants against the Phillies. Hubbel was pitching, and in a late inning, with the score quite close (the Giants Leading I believe) the Phillies got a man of first with one out. Then on Hubbel's next pitch (you knew the pitch was on it's way by the sudden stillness) there was a roar that abruptly broke, and then climbed to a shrill scream of delight.

All I could see was the second baseman take one quick step towards the base, then stop and fling his glove behind him to the outfield grass and trot into the dugout. I'll never forget the elderly Negro sitting next to us in rolled up shite shirtsleeves. He said as he marked his scorecard. "Line drive to Terry, unsassisted double play." He was right.

I LOVE that image, of people keeping score at a game they could hardly see, from what, 700 feet away?!?!? But what about the fact that the black fellow (Hano's book was written a long time ago, hence the use of the word Negro, I suppose) was passionate enough about his team, to go to the game, but probably not having the means to buy a ticket, KEPT SCORE from atop the bluff, and could correctly do so just from experience, listening to the crowd, and watching about 25% of the field... Great story. I would have liked a guy like him. :clapping



Now about the other thing, the "black mass of humanity" and the Bluff, the Speedway, EVERY place near the PG filled with fans.

I am certain that this was from October, 1908, and specifically the Giants-Cubs Replay of the "Merkle's Boner" tie game from a few weeks earlier. Keep in mind that the 1908 Polo Grounds was VERY different from the 1940, 50's and 60 PG. There was no Center Field Clubhouse. The double decked stands did NOT extend all the way into the outfield.

1908 was a hotly contested three way pennant race (even up to the last day, a three way tie was possible) but due to Merkle's Boner, a game the Giants felt they won was eventually declared a tie, and forced to be replayed at the end of the season, if necessary. It was necessary, and it seems as though EVERY Giant fan in all of New York went to the game, or at least tried to go.

In the "tie game" Merle was on first, and instead of running to second while the winning run scored from third on a "walk off" base hit to beat the Cubs, Merkle ran straight for the Center Field clubhouse instead of to second. In the ensuing melee of celebrating fans, players, etc. Johnny Evers (yes, THAT Evers) got a ball (whether it was the game ball or not) and stepped on second. He wanted the umpire to call the force out, and NOT give the Giants the run. The umpire did just that after much debate, despite the fact that it was common for players NOT to run to the next base once it was clear the winning run was scoring on a walk off hit. In fact, the same umpire (O'day) had NOT allowed the Cubs to claim an out during EXACTLY the same situation earlier in the year. This time, however, he called Merkle out, and because of the fans all over the field, the Giants in the clubhouse, and the Cubs going bananas, along with a few Giants, the game was abandoned. The Giants protested profusely, petitioning the league office, etc. Merkle's Boner was the talk of the town, and no longer just a topic for Merkle's wife. :eek:

The replayed game saw every Giant fan from NY show up. Or so it seemed. From Thornley's "Land of the Giants."

The Giants Management had watchmen on patrol the previous evening to prevent the bleachers from filling up overnight. The police anticipated the need for crowd control for the event, but no one, not hte team, not the newspapers, not the police dept, came close to predicting the size of the throng that came for the game, nor the determination of those in the crowd to see it.

Finally, at 11:00, for hours before the start of hte game, the gates were opened and the masses flodded in..... a new section of grandstand was opened for the first time, andwas filled quickly, as was every other reserved seat in the stadium. Fans were then sent to the areas on the playing field in foul territory, and soon all space allotted for this purpose was filled....

At 1:00 the gates were closed, and fans, with or without tickets were denied entry. Some went home, but other tried other meanns of entry, which included scaling fences topped with barbed wire, burrowing under the fences, and an one point on the south side of the stadium burning the fence down. Most of the fans who could not get in, were content to stake out any high spot in the vicinity...... curling around Coogan's Bluff, lining the 155th street viaduct, adn ocupying telephone poles, stairs, and fence tops along Eigth Avenue. Never before in the history of hte game have there been so many people to see a game who didn't see it, wrote WJ Lampton in the NY Times.

THe NY Times that morning, wrote...

It is impossible to estimate just how many people will witness the game. After the gates are closed there will probably be 35,000 persons on the grounds, the Viaduct will be packed and the Speedway, together with Coogan's Bluff, will be lines with a Black Mass of Humanity.

The Giants took a 1-0 lead in the first. Henry McBride, who was atop a pillar near the elevated train station beyond the center field fence, was watching the game. He cheered so vigorously, that he fell from his perch and died. No doubt another fan took his spot atop the pillar.

The NY papers estomated that anywhere from 80,000 to 100,000 fans showed up for the game... and in 1908, at a ballpark much, much smaller than any of today.

[64Cards]

Why a duck? Why notta chicken or a goose?

[RichardLillard1]

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[RichardLillard1]

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[RichardLillard1]

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[RichardLillard1]

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[RichardLillard1]

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[StanTheMan]

Great photos.... I have never seen the photo of the fans in the trees (up on the bluff) looking out on the field.

All of these great photos are of the Polo Grounds as it was BEFORE it burned down and was rebuilt as a double decked stadium with the 483 ft clubhouse in center.... except the last photo, the small one. That is of the "modern" polo grounds, if one can use such a term for a ballpark torn down more than 40 years ago.

Thanks for posting those gem photos, Richard!! :clapping

[RichardLillard1]

I'm glad you enjoyed the photos. The Polo Grounds and Yankee Stadium have always been two of my favorite ballparks. I have extensive pictures of both places on my computer (Yankee Stadium more so than Polo Grounds) and I am constantly looking for new pictures of them.

Here is another one I have, the main question in this thread pertained to 1908 before the wood grand stand burned, so here is another one of that time frame it is one of my favorite pictures of the Polo Grounds and I would love to find one of the 1911-22 Polo Grounds that shows the same kind of angle.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/RichardLillard1/6a29227r-1.jpg

[TJH1923]

Bill Purdom 2006 Hallowed Ground Calender goodsportsart.com

[TJH1923]

1996 Base Ball Stadiums Calender. Lithograph by William Feldman

[TJH1923]

I'm glad you enjoyed the photos. The Polo Grounds and Yankee Stadium have always been two of my favorite ballparks. I have extensive pictures of both place on my computer (Yankee Stadium more so than Polo Grounds) and I am constantly looking for new pictures of them.

Here is another one I have, the main question in this thread pertained to 1908 before the wood grand stand burned, so here is another one of that time frame it is one of my favorite pictures of the Polo Grounds and I would love to find one of the 1911-22 Polo Grounds that shows the same kind of angle.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/RichardLillard1/6a29227r-1.jpg

Rich, we both share the same passion for these ballparks. Maybe someday there will be time travel, or maybe someone will have the gonads to build an exact replica of one of these classic stadiums with the modern amenities the owners so desire.

[RichardLillard1]

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[RichardLillard1]

Those are great TJH.

I found another cool one. This is a picture of the "second" Polo Grounds and the "third" Polo Grounds. The Giants moved to the latter after the collapse of the Player's League. It was known as Brotherhood Park and when the Giants moved in they brought the Polo Grounds name with them. The old Polo Grounds became known as "Manhattan Field" and when Babe Ruth hit his first home run as a Yankee it was said to have landed there. By then it was an empty lot used for parking.

This is probably taken from the Bluff and you can see the site we came to know and love as the Polo Grounds in the foreground and the park the Giants played in before that off in the distance.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_Grounds

I am going to keep posting these as I find them. I love this thread just as much as the one about Yankee Stadium in the 20's through 50's

[runningshoes]

Awsome photos..thanks.

Do you know what year the photo with the trees is from or what years fans woudhave been able to climb them to view the game?

[RichardLillard1]

I found these while digging around online and I had to share them before I went to bed.

This is to better illustrate how close the two ballparks pictured in my last post were. It is a New York map from 1897. By then it was known as Manhattan Field but this definately shows how close they were. Standing in the batter box at Manhattan Field you could see the Polo Grounds upper deck just over the outfield wall. It wasn't uncommon for patrons to buy an upper deck seat to get double their money's worth because from the upper deck you could see both games if there were two that day.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/RichardLillard1/mfpg1897sm.jpg

The next two show the wooden Polo Grounds, both looking inward from center field. You can see Coogan's Bluff quite well in the backround in both. These are both from around 1904 and 05 respectively. This was before the bleachers in center so you can see how people used to ring the outfield to watch a game that way.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/RichardLillard1/PoloGroundsNYNY1904.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/RichardLillard1/Polo_grounds_panorama1905.jpg

[RichardLillard1]

Awsome photos..thanks.

Do you know what year the photo with the trees is from or what years fans woudhave been able to climb them to view the game?

Just guessing here but I think that would have been sometime around 1909 maybe 1910. I would guess that people would have been able to climb the trees like that up untill it was built of concrete in 1911.

[callingit]

Richard, Don, THJ--You fellas are thrilling me with these photos and descriptions of the PG. This may be a little too much to hope for but would any of you happen to have blueprints or detailed plans for the PG somewhere between '49-57? I'm conducting research for a novel and need thorough, accurate information regarding the PG. So far all my attempts at finding blueprints have met dead ends.


Please contact me @ kvfinn@comcast.net if you can help. Thanks!

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Richard, Don, THJ--You fellas are thrilling me with these photos and descriptions of the PG. This may be a little too much to hope for but would any of you happen to have blueprints or detailed plans for the PG somewhere between '49-57? I'm conducting research for a novel and need thorough, accurate information regarding the PG. So far all my attempts at finding blueprints have met dead ends.


Please contact me @ kvfinn@comcast.net if you can help. Thanks!
Sorry i have not seen any blueprints of the polo grounds yet.i am sure that they are out there somewhere.i would love to see them if i could.

[RichardLillard1]

Sorry I have no idea where you could find them. You might be able to find them at New York's main library (I forget the name) or maybe go to the city and ask they keep blueprints for years on end sometimes.