Weak, weak, weak. (or: Your predictions)

[verybadbreath]

2008-10 could be the weakest three-year stretch for HOF candidates in a long, long time, with Rickey Henderson being the only shoo-in, in 2009. I really think this is the window where the Four Holdovers and a (Question) Mark have their big chance. That is, Rice, Gossage, Dawson, Blyleven...and McGwire.

I'll assume Ripken and Gwynn are locks for next year. When do you think the other 5 folks will end up in the Hall, if at all? Include 2007 if applicable.

2007: I think it'll just be "Ripkin" and Gwynn
2008: Rice, Gossage, Dawson
2009: Blyleven (along with Henderson)
2010: McGwire

[538280]

I really hope Rice doesn't get in. The writers have a long history of horribly overrating players like that, perhaps they're finally getting over the infatuation with RBI though. Jim Rice was an impatient slugger who had some power, a pretty good average, and was helped quite a bit by his home park. Compared to the league average his OPS+ is 128. That is an okay figure, but Rice is the kind of player whom OPS+ actually overrates quite a bit, with just about no baserunning/stealing skills, TONS of GIDP, and almost of the OPS coming out of the "S".

[Dodgerfan1]

2008-10 could be the weakest three-year stretch for HOF candidates in a long, long time, with Rickey Henderson being the only shoo-in, in 2009. I really think this is the window where the Four Holdovers and a (Question) Mark have their big chance. That is, Rice, Gossage, Dawson, Blyleven...and McGwire.

I'll assume Ripken and Gwynn are locks for next year. When do you think the other 5 folks will end up in the Hall, if at all? Include 2007 if applicable.

2007: I think it'll just be "Ripkin" and Gwynn
2008: Rice, Gossage, Dawson
2009: Blyleven (along with Henderson)
2010: McGwire

Personally, I have been saying for a long time now that it would be fine with me if we didn't HAVE to have someone inducted every year. It's turned into the Hall of Very Good/Great. It was created as a shrine to baseball's immortals, but we've seen a recent spate of good/very good players inducted whose career numbers have been garnered over 20+ years of playing. Their seasonal numbers, aside from a couple of great years, perhaps, are not that great and only the players' longevity have earned them the HOF. I think the Hall should take a couple years off and get with people who know what it really stands for.

[mwiggins]

2007 - Gwynn, Ripken
2008 - Gossage, McGwire
2009 - Henderson
2010 - Raines

[jalbright]

Personally, I have been saying for a long time now that it would be fine with me if we didn't HAVE to have someone inducted every year. It's turned into the Hall of Very Good/Great. It was created as a shrine to baseball's immortals, but we've seen a recent spate of good/very good players inducted whose career numbers have been garnered over 20+ years of playing. Their seasonal numbers, aside from a couple of great years, perhaps, are not that great and only the players' longevity have earned them the HOF. I think the Hall should take a couple years off and get with people who know what it really stands for.

I'm not going to argue the Hall should elect someone just for the sake of doing so. We agree on that--they shouldn't. I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the vote should be shut down, but if you are, I have a strong disagreement with that. The Hall has done this in the past with the BBWAA vote. The result was to clog up the BBWAA process, which increased pressure for the Veteran's Committee to do something--and what the VC eventually did was elect the vast majority of the truly awful selections in the Hall partially as a result. Bill James has pointed out, correctly I believe, that had the BBWAA elections continued annually, the VC would have likely sunk into disuse, or at most special issues like the Negro Leaguers.

This isn't to say the writers have been perfect. They haven't--but really, very few of their picks are anywhere near as bad as the worst of the entities called "Veteran's Committees". The main flaw of the writers isn't who they've elected, but who they left out, IMO.

Jim Albright

[-Kyle-]

I really hope Rice doesn't get in. The writers have a long history of horribly overrating players like that, perhaps they're finally getting over the infatuation with RBI though. Jim Rice was an impatient slugger who had some power, a pretty good average, and was helped quite a bit by his home park. Compared to the league average his OPS+ is 128. That is an okay figure, but Rice is the kind of player whom OPS+ actually overrates quite a bit, with just about no baserunning/stealing skills, TONS of GIDP, and almost of the OPS coming out of the "S".

Agreed (it pains me to say it). I don't think that they are think about his RBI's and slugging so much, and more of his character and how he alienated them.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I can see Rickey in '08 and Raines in '09, and that's about it.

[538280]

Agreed (it pains me to say it). I don't think that they are think about his RBI's and slugging so much, and more of his character and how he alienated them.

I think that has a lot to do with it, but with Dawson also being kept out it makes me think they may be becoming a lot smarter in their statistical interpretation. Moving away from those counting stats where Andre does well and towards an actual look at his value, where he doesn't.

I don't support Dawson, but with his earlier time in CF and great longevity I can see the case. Rice's case is a big jumble of statistical misinterpretation IMO.

[-Kyle-]

I think that has a lot to do with it, but with Dawson also being kept out it makes me think they may be becoming a lot smarter in their statistical interpretation. Moving away from those counting stats where Andre does well and towards an actual look at his value, where he doesn't.

I don't support Dawson, but with his earlier time in CF and great longevity I can see the case. Rice's case is a big jumble of statistical misinterpretation IMO.
Oh, just looked at Dawson, bad OBP, all of OPS from the S....like Rice?

[Honus Wagner]

Rice's case is a big jumble of statistical misinterpretation IMO.

i know i'm biased growing up as a sox fan, but personal insults towards rice tick me off

rice was an incredible power hitter that did SO and GIDP and play poor defense early in his career and p'd off reporters

okay, maybe he's a borderline HOF'er, but please stop manipulating stats to influence an argument

remember rice never took steroids, or beat his wife or tried to run over trick-or-treaters--he did shove his manager who pinched-bunt for him, so he wasn't perfect

[538280]

i know i'm biased growing up as a sox fan, but personal insults towards rice tick me off

rice was an incredible power hitter that did SO and GIDP and play poor defense early in his career and p'd off reporters

okay, maybe he's a borderline HOF'er, but please stop manipulating stats to influence an argument

remember rice never took steroids, or beat his wife or tried to run over trick-or-treaters--he did shove his manager who pinched-bunt for him, so he wasn't perfect

I don't hate Rice at all. I actually really like the Red Sox, them and the Nationals are my favorite teams. I think Rice actually does a pretty good job as the Red Sox post game analyst. I don't hate him as a person at all.

The problem is that he just was not especially valuable to his teams. His slugging was good, but in the context of his time and place it was hardly all time great good. His relative SLG is 124-that is very good but it's hardly going to put you in the HOF alone if you're a corner OF. Then when you look at his total offensive picture, with the impatience and tons of GIDP, his offensive value is brought into much question. And he has no defensive value or baserunning to fall back on-he wasn't good at either. Jim Rice is just not really good enough for the HOF. This has nothing to do with any personal dislike I have for him or anything, my father actually really liked him when he played. He's just not good enough, and I'm afriad he was a rather overrated player.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't dislike Rice, but the statistical evidence is clear that Dwight Evans is a more deserving candidate. I would also argue that Fred Lynn is a better candidate than Rice. I'm not a big fan of any of these three for the HOF, but I rate Rice the weakest of the three.

[Gee Walker]

Here's a hope... maybe the revival of the Tigers franchise will trigger one of the brain cells* in at least 75% of the members of the BBWAA. This will get Alan Trammell into the HOF. And once Trammell is in, the writers will then have to figure out why Lou Whitaker isn't in.

*Having suffered with having to read Joe Falls for most of my life, I could only assume that one brain cell was a fairly large fraction of his mental processes.

[-Kyle-]

i know i'm biased growing up as a sox fan, but personal insults towards rice tick me off

rice was an incredible power hitter that did SO and GIDP and play poor defense early in his career and p'd off reporters

okay, maybe he's a borderline HOF'er, but please stop manipulating stats to influence an argument

remember rice never took steroids, or beat his wife or tried to run over trick-or-treaters--he did shove his manager who pinched-bunt for him, so he wasn't perfect
I love Rice as well (my dad always talks about his wrists), but he doesn't belong, he is just a very good player.

[538280]

I don't dislike Rice, but the statistical evidence is clear that Dwight Evans is a more deserving candidate. I would also argue that Fred Lynn is a better candidate than Rice. I'm not a big fan of any of these three for the HOF, but I rate Rice the weakest of the three.

Reggie Smith is another Red Sox outfielder who IMO is much superior to Jim Rice.

[SABR Matt]

Jim Rice has no business being without a time zone of the hall of fame.

[Brad Harris]

2008 - Gossage, McGwire
2009 - Blyleven, Henderson
2010 - Raines

It'd also be nice to see Belle and Trammell get inducted, but I doubt either will. Everyone else on the ballot has my permission to drop off anytime.

[brett]

I have not problem with Gossage although if I had a choice, I'd rather remove Sutter before adding Gossage. Sutter had 2 amazing seasons and a handful where he was just the everyday closer on a solid team. Gossage had fantastic seasons and was good for longer, and effective for much longer. In today's game he would have 40-50 saves instead of 25-30. He pitched more innings to get 25 saves than a guy today to get 40. Still, if Gossage never gets in I would not consider it to be a travesty-as long as Sutter and Fingers were removed as well.

Blylevin should be in, but he would not have been in Carlton, Seaver, or even Ryan or Palmer's company for that matter. If his wins and losses are projected for someone with average run support, he would have only been a potential Cy Young pitcher in one season, and he still would have had a lot of losses.

Rice should be out for sure. Its hard to believe considering that in 1984 he was completing his 10th year and had career averages of about .300/30/100+. That was unheard of during that period, but quite simply, value based stats demonstrate that he was not as valuable an offensive player as the numbers show-much like Sosa. He made too many outs, had huge GIDP totals, and virtually no walks. He couldn't have been that slow though considering he had 15 triples in '78. Still, if he had hit 1 more HR in '77, '79 and '83 and therefore produced 4 40 homerun seasons he probably would be in already.

I could accept Dawson. He is a better offensive player than Rice and has additional pluses. I would not push for him. He was, however extremely close to 3 MVPs, '81 where he was player of the year in some publications, '83 where he finished a close second to Murphy and '87. Then again, he shouldn't have won any.

Raines is statistically a hall of famer.

McGwire is a tough call for me because unlike Bonds, McGwire was probably not going to produce a hall of fame career before the PEDs. He was almost washed up after '94, then he came back in '95 with about 2 more inches on his forearms, a bigger back, BUT granted a different swing. One thing that people ignore is that McGwire and Bonds both had their big numbers after changing to a "modern" stance and swing. Anyway, McGwire's lawyer stated that he will eventually come out with the whole and true story, so I say, lets wait to hear it.

[soberdennis]

There should be three shoo-ins next year.

[Honus Wagner]

There should be three shoo-ins next year.

are you including buck o'neil?

[KCGHOST]

I just can't see the writers voting in Tim Raines or Bert Blyleven. Hope I'm wrong.

[mtortolero]

One thing that people ignore is that McGwire and Bonds both had their big numbers after changing to a "modern" stance and swing. Anyway, McGwire's lawyer stated that he will eventually come out with the whole and true story, so I say, lets wait to hear it.
Is Galarraga in the same package, i mean big numbers helped by PED, a new batting stance and Colorado baseball just when everybody was thinking he was washed up? After Bonds I think is Galarraga the hitter who better did it in the 35-40 years old period.

[DoubleX]

I don't think those years will be so weak. In additon to Henderson, there are at least three worthy candidates, IMO, that will become eligible in those years: Tim Raines will be eligible in 2008 and Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar will be eligible in 2010. It's probably doubtful at best that any of these players will get in on the first ballot, but they are very strong candidates, and I expect Alomar and Larkin to both make it at some point (I'm less sure about Raines).

Additionally, 2010 will also be interesting because of two more players that should spark some debate, namely Edgar Martinez (and the DH questions) and Fred McGriff (and is 493 homeruns enough).

There are also a few more holdovers that I believe deserve more recognition (in addition to the ones already mentioned): Alan Trammell, Dale Murphy, Albert Belle, Dave Parker, and Lee Smith. Of this group, I'd only put Trammell in for sure, and am on the fence with Murphy and Belle.

Tony Fernandez is someone I hope survives next year's ballot, but he probably won't. He'll go the way of Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, and Willie Randolph, as a middle infielder that the voters cannot appreciate. It's disgusting how long it took to get Sandberg in and how little respect Trammell gets (and probably the struggle it will take to get Larkin and Alomar in as well; Dave Concepcion has the Big Red Machine to thank for his perenial clinging to the ballot). The writers, as a whole, are idiots.

I'm actual hopeful that Gossage will be inducted this year with Ripken and Gwynn (I think the writers took a lot of guff last year for putting in Sutter but not Gossage). And I look to the period in question as being Blyleven's big opportunity, but I'm not especially hopeful for Blyleven, as I'm not confident that 75% of the writers could actually educate themselves enough to appreciate how good Blyleven was and that he was much better than his record indicates. I also believe that Dawson's big chance could come during that time as I think he (and perhaps Fred McGriff when eligible) will benefit from a backlash by voters against the "steroids era" candidates that will start becoming eligible around then (starting with McGwire, Canseco, and Caminiti next year).

[hudsonharden]

2007: Ripken, Gwynn
2008: Gossage, Dawson
2009: Henderson
2010: McGwire, Raines
2011-3: Edgar Martinez

[mtortolero]

Alomar is not eligible for 2010?

[john1972]

Alomar is not eligible for 2010?

Many people are unable to recognize his true talent and greatness as a player. Many of these so called 'knowledgeable fans' probably wouldn't consider it an injustice if Alomar was refused while Biggio is admitted. If this scenario does play out it will be one of the greatest travesties in the history of HOF voting. I also wouldn't be surprised if it comes to fruition. History is renowned for being distorted by men with twisted ideals and motivations.

[EvanAparra]

Many people are unable to recognize his true talent and greatness as a player. Many of these so called 'knowledgeable fans' probably wouldn't consider it an injustice if Alomar was refused while Biggio is admitted. If this scenario does play out it will be one of the greatest travesties in the history of HOF voting. I also wouldn't be surprised if it comes to fruition. History is renowned for being distorted by men with twisted ideals and motivations.

Don't you ever talk about anything other than Alomar being better than Biggio, even when it's not the topic at hand?

[JimAbbott]

I'd like to weigh in here if I may. No one has mentioned Buckner for consideration. Forget about Alomar unless you put a pic of his loogie flying thru the air at that ump. He may well get in though but I dont support cause he's a jerk. Goose? put him in for his dominance and esp after the Sutter induction joke (you can put Smith in while you're at it). Dawson? In baby. Blyleven? Sorry pal you and Kaat are just short w/o 300 wins. Biggio? shoe-in. Raines? after reviewing his numbers, I am putting him in there. Edgar? In baby. Belle? LOL, gimme a break and some cork. Trammell, nope. Parker? Hey if 1500 rbi, .290 life avg and over 2700 hits dont get you in, what does? Murphy? he aint making it, he burned out too quickly. McGriff? come on, shoe-in. Tony Fern? I thought this was the baseball fever site and not comedy central. Jim Rice? I'm a Rice believer. He belongs esp considering that Haank Greeen-Berg is in. Dwight Evans? No way dudes, you put him in then you gotta put in Staub, Pinson, Oliver and the like in too. Fred Lynn? funny funny, we're back to comedy central again, I suppose Wally Joyner goes too.

[EvanAparra]

I'd like to weigh in here if I may. No one has mentioned Buckner for consideration. Forget about Alomar unless you put a pic of his loogie flying thru the air at that ump. He may well get in though but I dont support cause he's a jerk. Goose? put him in for his dominance and esp after the Sutter induction joke (you can put Smith in while you're at it). Dawson? In baby. Blyleven? Sorry pal you and Kaat are just short w/o 300 wins. Biggio? shoe-in. Raines? after reviewing his numbers, I am putting him in there. Edgar? In baby. Belle? LOL, gimme a break and some cork. Trammell, nope. Parker? Hey if 1500 rbi, .290 life avg and over 2700 hits dont get you in, what does? Murphy? he aint making it, he burned out too quickly. McGriff? come on, shoe-in. Tony Fern? I thought this was the baseball fever site and not comedy central. Jim Rice? I'm a Rice believer. He belongs esp considering that Haank Greeen-Berg is in. Dwight Evans? No way dudes, you put him in then you gotta put in Staub, Pinson, Oliver and the like in too. Fred Lynn? funny funny, we're back to comedy central again, I suppose Wally Joyner goes too.

Hahahaha.... YOU are comedy central.... No to Blyleven, Kaat, Alomar, Trammel, and Murphy (and Koufax and Greenberg!) but yes to Jim Rice, and McGriff is a shoo-in?? what a joke.

[JimAbbott]

Yeah whatever dude. I will say this, if we put Blyleven and Kaat in there and they may well belong, we gotta make room for Jack Morris and Tommy John. Murphy's 398 blasts are not enough plus the guy had a career avg of .265. You can't mention the guy in the same breath as Jimmy Rice. If we say yes to Dale (a nice guy btw and a great player in his prime) then let's bang on our tom toms for King Kong, Canseco, Darrell Evans and all other comers with 400 or more clouts. Remember me when McGriff gets in on 1st ballot. I just don't understand the Rice bashing. The man averaged .298 30 HR 113 RBI over a 16 year career. That is a hall of famer in my book

[JimAbbott]

Also Evanaparra, I'm not sure what you're problem is with me but it seems like you are my #1 antagonist. I dont think it's just me either as you took a shot at John1972 above for expressing an opinion about Robbie Alomar. Try lightening up, people are entitled to their opinions

[EvanAparra]

Also Evanaparra, I'm not sure what you're problem is with me but it seems like you are my #1 antagonist. I dont think it's just me either as you took a shot at John1972 above for expressing an opinion about Robbie Alomar. Try lightening up, people are entitled to their opinions

You pretty much dont care about any aspect of the game other than milestones. (or so it seems, correct me if i'm wrong) You want to throw some of the greatest players in the history of the game out of the Hall of Fame. You take shots by calling other fever members comedy central, and when I do the same, I need to lighten up? I tell you that I think you're wrong, and I need to be told to that people are entitled to their opinions? It sounds like its you telling me to stop with mine.

All John does is throw around Alomar's name around and bash Biggio's... although that's been as of late, because from what i've read he used to admire Biggio. I think he got tired of people saying Biggio was better than Alomar and finally decided he was going to set out to prove why Alomar was better. I used to like to read what John would write, and it has just changed.

Also, just to make it clear, I have no problem with you as a person... Just most of your views. Have a good night. :)

[Captain Cold Nose]

2007-Ripken, Gwynn.
2008-McGwire, Gossage, Rice
2009-Henderson, Dawson
2010-Raines, Blyleven

[jalbright]

All right, folks, it's time for the reminder that personal attacks are cause for editing or deletion of posts and possibly even suspension from the site for a few days. Repeated offenses can result in permanent suspension from the site. The moment you cross the line from discussing the post to discussing the person who made the post, you are in dangerous territory. Certainly, that line has been crossed several times in the past few posts. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call those recent posts within bounds--barely. I won't be as generous if this continues, however. You have been warned.

Jim Albright

[DoubleX]

Yeah whatever dude. I will say this, if we put Blyleven and Kaat in there and they may well belong, we gotta make room for Jack Morris and Tommy John. Murphy's 398 blasts are not enough plus the guy had a career avg of .265. You can't mention the guy in the same breath as Jimmy Rice. If we say yes to Dale (a nice guy btw and a great player in his prime) then let's bang on our tom toms for King Kong, Canseco, Darrell Evans and all other comers with 400 or more clouts. Remember me when McGriff gets in on 1st ballot. I just don't understand the Rice bashing. The man averaged .298 30 HR 113 RBI over a 16 year career. That is a hall of famer in my book

You say no to Blyleven in because he didn't win 300 games. He won 287, but he deserved probably about 320 wins. Wins are a team dependent stat and Blyleven lost a ridiculous amount of games, particular early in his career, in which he pitched 7, 8, 9, or even 10 innings, giving up 2 runs or less, and got a loss or no decision - we're talking like 40+ games in a 5 or 6 year period in which Blyleven pitched well enough to get a win, but his team did not come through. Just picture that. Blyleven, IMO, is one of the unluckiest pitchers ever, in terms of his record not being an accurate reflection of his ability. Blyleven was very much a 300 game winner, it is a reflection on his team's play on his day out that he didn't get to 300 wins, not his lack of skill.

[Murderer's Row]

You say no to Blyleven in because he didn't win 300 games. He won 287, but he deserved probably about 320 wins. Wins are a team dependent stat and Blyleven lost a ridiculous amount of games, particular early in his career, in which he pitched 7, 8, 9, or even 10 innings, giving up 2 runs or less, and got a loss or no decision - we're talking like 40+ games in a 5 or 6 year period in which Blyleven pitched well enough to get a win, but his team did not come through. Just picture that. Blyleven, IMO, is one of the unluckiest pitchers ever, in terms of his record not being an accurate reflection of his ability. Blyleven was very much a 300 game winner, it is a reflection on his team's play on his day out that he didn't get to 300 wins, not his lack of skill.
That reminds me of Rocket and 2005, remember how he kept losing those one-to-nothing games?

Hello DoubleX:waving

[Captain Cold Nose]

That reminds me of Rocket and 2005, remember how he kept losing those one-to-nothing games?

Hello DoubleX:waving
Maybe he just got outpitched. ;)

[candy curveball cummings]

I will say this, if we put Blyleven and Kaat in there and they may well belong, we gotta make room for Jack Morris...


It would appear to me that this is what you use to evaluate and compare these two pitchers:

Bert Blyleven- 287-250 Career Record
Jack Morris- 254-186 Career Record


If this is the only thing you use, you are not getting the whole picture, or even really a significant part of it. Consider these factors:

Morris has a career ERA of 3.90 and an ERA+ of 105.

Blyleven has a career ERA of 3.31 and an ERA+ of 118.

Blyleven is clearly better in this aspect.


Morris has 2478 career strikeouts, a career average of 6.25 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched, and a career strikeout to walk ratio of 1.78.

Blyleven has 3701 career strikeouts, a career average of 6.70 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched, and a career strikeout to walk ratio of 2.80.


Blyleven is clearly better in this aspect.

Morris has 175 complete games and 28 shutouts

Blyleven has 242 complete games and 60 shutouts, just 1 behind Nolan Ryan for 9th all-time.

Blyleven is clearly better in this aspect.


Looking at all of these numbers, it’s clear that if you let Blyleven in, you do not open the door to Morris. Jack Morris was at nowhere near the level of Bert Blyleven.

[JimAbbott]

You say no to Blyleven in because he didn't win 300 games. He won 287, but he deserved probably about 320 wins. Wins are a team dependent stat and Blyleven lost a ridiculous amount of games, particular early in his career, in which he pitched 7, 8, 9, or even 10 innings, giving up 2 runs or less, and got a loss or no decision - we're talking like 40+ games in a 5 or 6 year period in which Blyleven pitched well enough to get a win, but his team did not come through. Just picture that. Blyleven, IMO, is one of the unluckiest pitchers ever, in terms of his record not being an accurate reflection of his ability. Blyleven was very much a 300 game winner, it is a reflection on his team's play on his day out that he didn't get to 300 wins, not his lack of skill.


I'm not saying a big no to Bert and he may well deserve to go and could go but I feel that Tommy John and his 288 wins, Kaat 284 and Morris 254 with great post season numbers should go as well. Put 'em all in I say

[JimAbbott]

I just saw your post come across CCC and those are some mind boggling numbers that you bring up on Blyleven. Clearly he should be in there based on those shutouts and CGs. Morris should go in with his more than decent win totals and stellar post season performances. The guy has what 3 or 4 series rings where he was the stalwart pitcher?

[candy curveball cummings]

I just saw your post come across CCC and those are some mind boggling numbers that you bring up on Blyleven. Clearly he should be in there based on those shutouts and CGs. Morris should go in with his more than decent win totals and stellar post season performances. The guy has what 3 or 4 series rings where he was the stalwart pitcher?

Morris has 3 WS rings and he has a career post-season record of 7-4 with an ERA of 3.80.

Blyleven has 2 WS rings and he has a career post-season record of 5-1 with an ERA of 2.47.

Even in post-season performance, Blyleven had a better ERA and won a higher percentage of his games. Morris is nowhere near as deserving as Blyleven based only on regular season performance, and including the post-season doesn't get him any closer to Bert.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Murphy's 398 blasts are not enough plus the guy had a career avg of .265.

.265?! Then we'd better throw out Mike Schmidt!!! He had a career average of .267 in 1022 more plate appearances!!! KICK HIM OUT!!!!!

[candy curveball cummings]

.265?! Then we'd better throw out Mike Schmidt!!! He had a career average of .267 in 1022 more plate appearances!!! KICK HIM OUT!!!!!


And Killebrew too. His average is just .256. Get him out :laugh

[JimAbbott]

Take it easy dudes, 548 HRs and 573 HRs are more than hall worthy. You can forget about 398 getting Dale in even though I love Murph as an individual

[SamtheBravesFan]

Take it easy dudes, 548 HRs and 573 HRs are more than hall worthy. You can forget about 398 getting Dale in even though I love Murph as an individual

Our point was you can't bring up batting averages like that. And do you know WHY Murphy has "only" 398 home runs??

[cup2006sensrule]

It would appear to me that this is what you use to evaluate and compare these two pitchers:

Bert Blyleven- 287-250 Career Record
Jack Morris- 254-186 Career Record


If this is the only thing you use, you are not getting the whole picture, or even really a significant part of it. Consider these factors:

Morris has a career ERA of 3.90 and an ERA+ of 105.

Blyleven has a career ERA of 3.31 and an ERA+ of 118.

Blyleven is clearly better in this aspect.


Morris has 2478 career strikeouts, a career average of 6.25 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched, and a career strikeout to walk ratio of 1.78.

Blyleven has 3701 career strikeouts, a career average of 6.70 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched, and a career strikeout to walk ratio of 2.80.


Blyleven is clearly better in this aspect.

Morris has 175 complete games and 28 shutouts

Blyleven has 242 complete games and 60 shutouts, just 1 behind Nolan Ryan for 9th all-time.

Blyleven is clearly better in this aspect.


Looking at all of these numbers, it’s clear that if you let Blyleven in, you do not open the door to Morris. Jack Morris was at nowhere near the level of Bert Blyleven.

I wouldn't mind both getting in. I am surely on the minority with Morris but he won 254 games in a 5 man rotation era and was thought of as an ace pretty much his whole career. He has 3 great post seasons and 3 World Series and a WS MVP. He won 20 games 3 times.

Blyleven should definately be in. An argument hardly needs to be made about that.

[candy curveball cummings]

I wouldn't mind both getting in. I am surely on the minority with Morris but he won 254 games in a 5 man rotation era and was thought of as an ace pretty much his whole career. He has 3 great post seasons and 3 World Series and a WS MVP. He won 20 games 3 times.

Blyleven should definately be in. An argument hardly needs to be made about that.

The thing that bothers me about Morris is the ERA (and subsequent ERA+). His numbers are highly comparable to Dennis Martinez, and I don't really want Dennis in the hall, do you?

[JimAbbott]

Our point was you can't bring up batting averages like that. And do you know WHY Murphy has "only" 398 home runs??

why dont you elaborate

[verybadbreath]

2008: Rice, Gossage, Dawson
2009: Blyleven (along with Henderson)
2010: McGwire

With a heavy heart, I must now strike Blyleven from my predictions. It would have been great to see Rickey & Rikkey go in together, but no chance for that. I'll move Rice down a year, to go in as Henderson's classmate. Blyleven will almost certainly have to wait for the Vets to push him in.