Body Tilt (Dipping back shoulder)

[SluggerCF91]

My hitting coach noticed that I tend to dip my back shoulder when I swing. This is causing me to hit a lot of popups, and I also strike out a lot. Anyone have any drills or comments on how I can stop this problem?

[jbooth]

My hitting coach noticed that I tend to dip my back shoulder when I swing. This is causing me to hit a lot of popups, and I also strike out a lot. Anyone have any drills or comments on how I can stop this problem?

Your coach is wrong. Dipping the shoulder is an ABSOLUTE fundamental necessity in a good swing.

You are probably popping up because you are swinging down, and/or you are dropping your hands down away from your shoulder as you dip the shoulder and are then swinging up.

The hands move with the shoulder and you need to be tilted over as you swing.

The guy below is a pretty good hitter and his shoulder sure looks "dipped" to me.

Notice that his hands are still near his shoulder at this point.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds_approach1.jpg

These guys all look to me, like their shoulders are dipped;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/mlb9.jpg

[Jake Patterson]

My hitting coach noticed that I tend to dip my back shoulder when I swing. This is causing me to hit a lot of popups, and I also strike out a lot. Anyone have any drills or comments on how I can stop this problem?

Can you put up a clip? It's difficult to comment without seeing the swing.

[Jake Patterson]

Here's Abreu

14797

I wonder if he's a linear guy????

[SluggerCF91]

Your coach is wrong. Dipping the shoulder is an ABSOLUTE fundamental necessity in a good swing.

You are probably popping up because you are swinging down, and/or you are dropping your hands down away from your shoulder as you dip the shoulder and are then swinging up.

The hands move with the shoulder and you need to be tilted over as you swing.

The guy below is a pretty good hitter and his shoulder sure looks "dipped" to me.

Notice that his hands are still near his shoulder at this point.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds_approach1.jpg

These guys all look to me, like their shoulders are dipped;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/mlb9.jpg
I see. My hitting coach ment that I was dipping over TOO much. And after watching my swing over again on tape, I seen it myself. My head, and shoulders were almost parallel to the ground. If you can, just as you did, I would like to see a couple of major league players (stars rather) at the point of contact from a pitchers view. So I can compare them with my swing, and I dont think I will be able to get a clip of my swing, sorry. But im still going to work on getting one.

[jbooth]

I see. My hitting coach ment that I was dipping over TOO much. And after watching my swing over again on tape, I seen it myself. My head, and shoulders were almost parallel to the ground. If you can, just as you did, I would like to see a couple of major league players (stars rather) at the point of contact from a pitchers view. So I can compare them with my swing, and I dont think I will be able to get a clip of my swing, sorry. But im still going to work on getting one.

Here's a good example; they all do this

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds30alr.gif

[MSandman]

Slugger,

It sounds like you're talking about 2 different issues, and I'm not sure which one your coach is concerned with:

1. "I tend to dip my back shoulder" OR
2. "I was dipping over TOO much...My head, and shoulders were almost parallel to the ground."

The first one, in my experience, is often caused by lack of proper posture. MLB hitters bend over from the waist to get their spine perpendicular to the line on which their shoulders and the bat will swing. Like this:
http://members.cox.net/msanda/Nomar%20-%20posture.jpg

If a hitter does achieve this posture before launching his swing, then as he TURNS his shoulders, the rear one will indeed go lower than the front. Try it for yourself. Stand up, cross your hands across your chest (we're focusing on the shoulders), bend over from the waist, then simply TURN your shoulders counterclockwise (if you're a righty). Your rear shoulder definitely got lower than your front one, just like Nomar's above, right? This is what I think Jim is getting at about your coach being wrong, if that's what your coach is objecting to?

OTOH, if you don't develop proper posture, and you just stand almost straight up, then you will [subconsciously] be forced to find another way to get the bat on plane to reach the ball (assuming the pitch is not up near shoulder/chest height). That's when you'll see a hitter's rear shoulder dip or TILT long before they've even begun turning their shoulders. This will indeed cause inconsistent contact (popups, ground balls, strikeouts) because it results in the bat moving in a drastic downward plane, while the pitch is coming in either flat or slightly down the other way.

http://members.cox.net/msanda/Shoulder%20tilt%20vs.%20turn.gif

So... which is it that your coach is saying you're doing? :confused:

P.S.
Yes, my son's pitch is a bit higher than ARod's, but he exhibits similar posture on lower pitches too. Hopefully, you'll get the point I'm making here about the difference between TILTING and TURNING the shoulders, and we won't get hung up on this minor detail.

[tom.guerry]

see scap minutia thread.

the shoulders/scaps have to fulfill their role in contributing to good transfer,transformation and direction of momentum.

This requires an overall high level body pattern such as the Dixon "whip" descripion (Dixon is lacking on the directionality/timing requirements but is good on creation/transfer/transformation).

So how do you dip the shoulders in the good high level vs bad low level way ?

How do you optimize cusp and quickness and timing and direction/make them all better at the same time the way Barry does ?

Hint: arm action is king.

[ssarge]

Mike (Sandman) is right on.

Obviously, ALL elite hitters rotate and make contact while the back shoulder is lower than the front.

If a hitter attains this posture in the manner Mike indicates, he is likely to be jump-started towards success. If the hitter starts vertical, then leans back towards the catcher as he starts to rotate, it won't work well.

Typical coaching in my opinion. SluggerCF, you may well be attaining the rear-shoulder-lower-postion in the second of the two descriptions. The coach sees it, doesn;t understand exactly what is wrong, but knows you are leaning back. THe suggestion to be more vertical is wrong, though. Probably, you need to be LESS vertical in set-up (more upper body tilt towards the plate), then hold that posture as you begin to rotate.

Alternatively, the coach is REALLY wrong, and just believes you should be "vertical" throughout the swing.

Personally, I'd suggest Englishbey - Note the ONE_HANDED swing on the front page of the site. You will conclude that a LOT can be accomplished by postioning and using the body correctly.

A large portion of Englishbey's instructional tapes are devoed to attaining and maintaining the correct posture through the swing. Some would like to piegon-hole him by saying that is ALL he teaches. They are wrong. Any one who says this HASN'T seen the tapes, clearly. The videos are MUCH deeper than that. But it is the foundation.

Best regards,

Scott

Best regards.

[SluggerCF91]

I hope none of you are underestimating my hitting coach. I go to a facility in new jersey called "Zoned". Its great, its got 7 cages, 4 large fields, and a whole lot of open space. The coaches there are amazing, they really know their stuff. All of them played pro-ball. MY coach, played pro-ball, im not sure where, but his son played for rutgers university, and batted over .400 each of his seasons there. He was an all-american. My coach KNOWS HIS STUFF.
I really dont think he wants me to swing completely vertical like a stick figure. I think he wants me to TRY TO SWING LIKE A STICK FIGURE. Because obviously its impossible to swing like that and make good contact, but I was tilting/dipping way way too much. Iam dropping my back shoulder down then turning, which is wrong, your supposed to turn your back shoulder into the pitch, which may cause it to be lower than your front shoulder but thats okay, all the MLB pics show them doing that.

"My hitting coach noticed that I tend to dip my back shoulder when I swing. This is causing me to hit a lot of popups, and I also strike out a lot. Anyone have any drills or comments on how I can stop this problem?"

My hitting coach did not say he wants me to keep my body vertical. But we are working on keeping my body closer to vertical. Its easier to hit a baseball while your eyes are straight, as opposed to when your eyes are 45 degrees from the ground correct?

With that in mind, does anyone have any drills or ways I can Keep my body and head closer to vertical?

P.S. Clips of Albert Pujols is perfect for this subject, he usually always keeps his shoulders and head really close to vertical.

[LClifton]

Slugger,
I don't really think anyone was attempting to underestimate your coaches.
The background of them was not revealed until now.
Sounds like a good coaching staff to me, based on your description.

In looking at your video clips, THEY would be the ones to discern what is happening with your swing. If, in fact, they are not looking at video of your swing it would be very difficult to determine where the swing goes awry.

Seeing things in real time is something very few can do and really see what is occuring. Should you get the time to do a video, it would be more than helpful, for them, and the people here. At that point in time there are many here that could give you a good idea of the cause of the results you are seeing.

The "cue" to stay level (horizontal shoulders)or
vertical (upright posture),???,,,,,is probably not one most here would use. IMO

LClifton

[ametsfan#5]

"My coach KNOWS HIS STUFF."

I would say ask one of your coaches. They should then be able to demonstrate the drills to you also.

[FindAGap12]

P.S. Clips of Albert Pujols is perfect for this subject, he usually always keeps his shoulders and head really close to vertical.

Here you go. http://media.putfile.com/pujolstilt

I would say that his eyes and shoulders are tilted at about a 45 degree angle...

[Mark H]

Mike (Sandman) is right on.

.

Agreed. Clear and concise.

[Mark H]

I hope none of you are underestimating my hitting coach. .

I hope you are right. As always, compare anthing he tells you to slow motion video of the best in the world. Being an ex pro doesn't guarantee anything. Being able to do is one thing. Knowing is another. Teaching is another.

[Jake Patterson]

Being able to do is one thing. Knowing is another. Teaching is another.

In my book I offer: "The measure of a good coach is not how well he knows the game, it's how well he can teach it."

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

I would say in the high level swing you ALWAYS have to "tilt" the shoulders before they turn. The "tilt" is essential to creating "resistance" so you get good cusp/quickness and good plane matching for a good collision.

The "tilt" is what keesp the shoulder in vs not "flying out".

This is one reason Epstein's "drop and tilt" can be such a good cue.

Indeed, you subsequently need to turn/stay on plane from launch to contact, but that is only about the last 3+ frames to contact in high level swings.

Note that Arod (in the kevin arod clip) gets the back shoulder up which positions him for scap/shoulder "tilt". The bat is started uncocking/turning back (but before it "blurs") by arm action (back elbow starts down, front elbow starts up), THEN it blurs as the scaps "tilt". This blur frame and the next are both more tilt than turn,creating cusp before bathead launches out of handpath radius.

[virg]

Do your shoulders remain square with the spine, or not? Watch a playground slowpitch game, and the way most batters struggle to align a swing with a descending blooped pitch: is that what your coach sees?

[txrangersown]

I need help with my swing OVERALL i dont ahve good batspeed is my firs problem and second i do a half swing come back then my swing when the pitch comes!!!?????!!!??? ive tryed so hard to fix this but nothing works!!!anyway since baseball is over i cant get any tips from coaches since my dad wouldnt play baseball with me if some1 held a gun to his head:ughh

[txrangersown]

I need help with my swing OVERALL i dont ahve good batspeed is my firs problem and second i do a half swing come back then my swing when the pitch comes!!!?????!!!??? ive tryed so hard to fix this but nothing works!!!anyway since baseball is over i cant get any tips from coaches since my dad wouldnt play baseball with me if some1 held a gun to his head:ughhsrry about my spelling i was typin really fast

[Jake Patterson]

...anyway since baseball is over i cant get any tips from coaches since my dad wouldnt play baseball with me if some1 held a gun to his head:ughh

That's too bad....

[txrangersown]

That's too bad....ya it is and there is virtually nowhere to practice anywhere near me, no batting cages, the only ones r privatley owned

[txrangersown]

i do a half swing come back then my swing when the pitch comes the thing i do is just like barry bonds in the video at the top it makes me very bad against fast pitchers because i waste all my time doing the dumb halfswing

[MSandman]

Mike-

I would say in the high level swing you ALWAYS have to "tilt" the shoulders before they turn. The "tilt" is essential to creating "resistance" so you get good cusp/quickness and good plane matching for a good collision.

The "tilt" is what keesp the shoulder in vs not "flying out".

This is one reason Epstein's "drop and tilt" can be such a good cue.

Indeed, you subsequently need to turn/stay on plane from launch to contact, but that is only about the last 3+ frames to contact in high level swings.

Note that Arod (in the kevin arod clip) gets the back shoulder up which positions him for scap/shoulder "tilt". The bat is started uncocking/turning back (but before it "blurs") by arm action (back elbow starts down, front elbow starts up), THEN it blurs as the scaps "tilt". This blur frame and the next are both more tilt than turn,creating cusp before bathead launches out of handpath radius.
Tom,

It's one thing for the shoulders to tilt some while turning once the "swing" starts; it's another to tilt or drop the rear shoulder during the stride (prelaunch), as Kevin and many youth hitters do.

Even in ARod's swing, I see quite a bit of TURN going on here too. Look at the hips and torso (and the number on his jersey).

http://members.cox.net/msanda/ARod%20-%20shoulder%20movement.gif

I suspect if we saw ARod's swing from overhead, that his shoulders are actually turning - even this early in the swing. I can't tell for sure from this angle, but I think Rose's rear shoulder is moving down much more from him turning his shoulders (and of course because he's not standing straight up) than from any preswing tilt?

http://members.cox.net/msanda/Rose%20shoulder%20turn.gif

[SluggerCF91]

Slugger,
I don't really think anyone was attempting to underestimate your coaches.
The background of them was not revealed until now.
Sounds like a good coaching staff to me, based on your description.

In looking at your video clips, THEY would be the ones to discern what is happening with your swing. If, in fact, they are not looking at video of your swing it would be very difficult to determine where the swing goes awry.

Seeing things in real time is something very few can do and really see what is occuring. Should you get the time to do a video, it would be more than helpful, for them, and the people here. At that point in time there are many here that could give you a good idea of the cause of the results you are seeing.

The "cue" to stay level (horizontal shoulders)or
vertical (upright posture),???,,,,,is probably not one most here would use. IMO

LClifton
At the faciltiy I go to they have plenty of camera's and I actually looked at my swing in slow motion a few ways last week, so yes they have access to my swing in slow mo, and from many angles.
I dont think my coach wants me to stay perfectly vertical/straight, but he wants me to stay MORE vertical.
I will not be able to get a clip of my swing so your going to have to take my word for it. :p

[SluggerCF91]

"My coach KNOWS HIS STUFF."

I would say ask one of your coaches. They should then be able to demonstrate the drills to you also.
He gave me a few drills, but there is more knowledge out there and I just wanted to see if anyone on this site could show me any other drills they thought would help keep my body MORE vertical.

[SluggerCF91]

Here you go. http://media.putfile.com/pujolstilt

I would say that his eyes and shoulders are tilted at about a 45 degree angle...
Thx, do you have access to a few more because that was unusual. I never really see him tilt that much.

[SluggerCF91]

I need help with my swing OVERALL i dont ahve good batspeed is my firs problem and second i do a half swing come back then my swing when the pitch comes!!!?????!!!??? ive tryed so hard to fix this but nothing works!!!anyway since baseball is over i cant get any tips from coaches since my dad wouldnt play baseball with me if some1 held a gun to his head:ughh
That is too bad... NOW MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD! Just kidding. You dont need your dad, you need good coaching, and to work hard.

[Jake Patterson]

If you compare Bonds here against the other pics posted you will see his bat position (parallel to the ground) versus his hands seems off. Bat drag??? Hands slightly ahead of the swing??

Thoughts..

14836

[jbooth]

If you compare Bonds here against the other pics posted you will see his bat position (parallel to the ground) versus his hands seems off. Bat drag??? Hands slightly ahead of the swing??

Thoughts..



14836

One needs to be aware of what the camera angle can do. Imagine him in 3D and walk yourself around to the third base line. From there you would see that his back elbow is closer to the catcher than it is to his belly-button, and his hands are still near his shoulder, not around in front of his chest yet. There is no bat drag in this swing.

His hands are back, back palm up and ready to now be used to throw the head of the bat at the ball, as he completes his rotation. The "throw" of the bathead is literally like using the hand in throwing a ball, it is not a throw by pushing the hands at the ball. He MIGHT straighten his elbows from this position, IF, the ball is outside or outside and low. He will pull the hands around the body during the throw, IF, the ball is inside. He has stated that his "thought" is to "catch the ball" with his top hand.

[Jake Patterson]

14836

One needs to be aware of what the camera angle can do. Imagine him in 3D and walk yourself around to the third base line. From there you would see that his back elbow is closer to the catcher than it is to his belly-button, and his hands are still near his shoulder, not around in front of his chest yet. There is no bat drag in this swing.


Thank Jim .

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

As usual you make good points.

As the PCR crowd discovered, you have to "keep the scap loaded around the corner" as sarge learned from STEVE E.

However, scap action must be more completely understood so that this fix does not mess up other aspects of the swing (optimal cusp formation and plane matching).

Some shoulder dipping is necessaqry, some will ruin the swing. You have to somehow make the distinction.

As Richard is starting to discover as part of his religious conversion, arm action is important and is involved in turning the knob before the scap action kicks in. Not before there is any scap tightening/loading, but before there is any scap forward turn or tilt.

This will never be learned with drills like "the best drill in the world" where you atempt to somehow use the scaps to primarily turn the knob "in the shoulder line". It is much simpler and more effective to cok the bat more vertically and accomplish this with good arm action focus.

You have to teach keeping the scaps loaded/loading all the way to contact AND you have to use the scaps to create cusp/swing plane far enough behind the hitter to get early batspeed, optimal quickness and late adjustability.

Without the arm action going first, you do not get the position or resistance required to do this.

The player is already familiar with how this feels in the overhand throw, and then can learn to adapt this solution while keeping the merrygoround going til contact in the case of hitting.

While Arod is tilting and turning at the same time, the CRUCIAL point is where/when/how does "cusp" happen ?

The only way to keep the shoulders from initiating the turn themselves which ruins cusp is to have the shoulders involved in tilting/creating resistance and swing plane until the torso muscles (stretching between hips and shoulders) reverse at cusp and jumpstart an efficient turn.
So while Arod may have some element of TURN going on, the torso muscles are still stretching.cusp is still being created until 3+ frames before contact.

using arm action to turn the bat BEFORE the scaps tilt or turn is an absolute part of the high level swing sequence. It may be very obvious as "pre-launch tht" as with Sheff or Bonds. Or it may be more subtle as only "tht at launch" as with mcgwire or Alou or kent or it may be in between like Pujols.

The running start sequence is ALWAYS there in a good high level swing. It gets the bat turning by applying torquing forces between the hands. This also reactively keeps the shoulders back. The arm action also lets the hands be in charge of how the scaps are positioned and how they will support the hands getting where they need to be when.

I woud like to see if you can demonstrate this turn vs tilt/frontside stretch/cusp on video and also see if you can show the pelvic projection thinggy I mentioned before that is important to keep the torso muscles stretching until the cusp is finished forming.

[FindAGap12]

Thx, do you have access to a few more because that was unusual. I never really see him tilt that much.

Watch him more closely...He tilts that much on 99% of his swings. Most good hitters do. In reality, this is what people consider staying level, staying tall. If your shoulders are parallel to the ground, you're posture is not correct. That clip http://media.putfile.com/pujolstilt is the standard....

[FindAGap12]

I don't have another Pujols clip from centerfield, but here are some more... http://media.putfile.com/tilt-93

These are fairly representative of the standard MLB posture....

Forget about your shoulder dropping. Get into an athletic stance....Turn the body...If the head doesn't move much, it's good posture. If the head lowers during rotation, you're "dropping the back shoulder" If the head comes up and your shoulders are parellel to the ground, it's no good either...

[Mark H]

He gave me a few drills, but there is more knowledge out there and I just wanted to see if anyone on this site could show me any other drills they thought would help keep my body MORE vertical.

Quit thinking in terms of keeping your body more vertical and think in terms of your swing plane being parallel to your shoulder rotation and perpendicular to your upper spine. Use the amount of tilt required to line all this up with the contact point.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis

[SluggerCF91]

I don't have another Pujols clip from centerfield, but here are some more... http://media.putfile.com/tilt-93

These are fairly representative of the standard MLB posture....

Forget about your shoulder dropping. Get into an athletic stance....Turn the body...If the head doesn't move much, it's good posture. If the head lowers during rotation, you're "dropping the back shoulder" If the head comes up and your shoulders are parellel to the ground, it's no good either...
Thx that helps me a lot.

Quit thinking in terms of keeping your body more vertical and think in terms of your swing plane being parallel to your shoulder rotation and perpendicular to your upper spine. Use the amount of tilt required to line all this up with the contact point.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis
Thank you also, but I still dont understand what connection and disconnection is. And what is the proper one?

[Mark H]

Thank you also, but I still dont understand what connection and disconnection is. And what is the proper one??

Connection means to connect the rotating torso to the bat without the bat and hands falling behind, moving ahead, dropping below or otherwise disconnecting from the power source of the rotating torso. This link would be an extreme example of one kind of disconnection. http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

[swingbuster]

Mark

Looking closely, I think the quickhands man is BHUT at the beginning. I will have to give him some credit ;)

http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

[Mark H]

I'll check...but I thought bhut was almost guaranteed to connect the bottom hand to rotation?

[swingbuster]

It did until I met this guy :waving

[Mark H]

An exception to every rule?

[swingbuster]

apparently