The Minutae of Scap Loading

[Chris O'Leary]

Rather than completely hijacking the Dick Mills and Tom House thread, let's move the discussion of scap loading over here.

Regarding when it happens, let me strike a middle ground and talk about it in the context of a number of stills taken from a video.

Happy Mark? ;-)

30. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_030.jpg


31. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_031.jpg


32. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_032.jpg


33. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_033.jpg

34. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_034.jpg

35. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_035.jpg

36. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_036.jpg

37. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_037.jpg

38. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_038.jpg

39. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/KerryWood_Video_2006/KerryWood_Video_2006_001_039.jpg

I largely view scap loading as a conservation of momentum thing in which the scap loading occurs due to the rotation of the shoulders. It's easier for the scap loading (e.g. adduction) to occur than for the body to maintain the zero adduction angle.

However, I would agree with you that in frame 36 you have 15 or so degrees of adduction/scap loading without significant rotation of the shoulders (based on the position of the placket on the front of his jersey). However, do notice how much the front shoulder has moved back (e.g. front upper arm is adducted). That could have an effect on the adduction of the back upper arm.

By frame 37 the shoulders are turning. I think the adduction increases between frames 37 and 38 and pretty much peaks in frame 38.

One thing to notice is that Wood's elbows don't go as far above and behind his shoulders as do Prior's or Reyes'.

Also, I think the fact that Wood's shoulders start turning between frames 36 and 37, and before his PAS forearm is vertical, may suggest a habitual problem with rushing that may be related to his shoulder problems.

[Mark H]

If you want to know about scap loading theories, go to the guy who proposed such. I'd suggest spending ten bucks if he still offers the deal and get on setpro for a month and read everything on throwing. Whatever you do, don't post. Just read.

[XFactor]

Was that pitch a strike? I'm just curious, is all

[tom.guerry]

Chris-

I think Nyman has the best overall description of a useful high level overhand throwing model - the buggy whip.

He also has good info on motor learning and control and importance of intent and supremacy of arm action.

Nyman's focus on scap action is also very important in understanding the model.

While he emphasizes the importance of arm action, he does not describe the arm action sequence in adequate detail or emphasize how the lower limbs synch with arm action in the well timed high level throw. He also does not emphasize good lead arm action enough. Hodge covers these deficient areas well in his BIOMECHANIC BASEBALL tape.

Wolforth has an excellent overall program including Nyman's model.

The overall model is similar to the "buggy whip" with body as handle and arm as loop and scap as connection between the two.

Torso action is described as flatbed-merrygoround-ferris wheel.

Spine action as bow-arch-bow.

Exact details will vary somewhat with individual style and more predictably with arm slot.

Wolforth likes to describe the model as a double bow-arch-bow with the first bow-arch-bow being the spine and the second across the scap/shoulder link.

Scap "loading" includes elements of muscular force production and certain kinesiological/joint descriptions. In joint motion terms, scap loading is described by Nyman as primarily horizontal aDuction of the throwing side scap or pinching the throwing side shoulder blade toward the spine. Unloading is horizontal aBduction or unpinching.

In the context of the buggywhip model, the spine flexes back and forth (flex as a generic not kinesiologically accurate term) with the bow-arch-bow.

Flatbed (aligned linear/forward momentum of body) momentum is underway as the merrygoround loads the arch including the scaps,then flatbed momentum is converted to assist in the transition to the final bow/ferris wheel which involves UNloading the back scap which finishes laying back/externally rotating the arm (arm loop) followed by rapid acceleration primarily by arm internal rotation and only secondarily by extension.

The "double" transition from arch to bow refers to two aspects of the unloading, the fmore vertical ferris wheel aspect of the spine as well as the more horizontal symmetric unloading of both scaps transversely across the chest- chest going from thrust outto caved in as elbows get closer together through release.

Even if you are not interested in baseball pitching, it pays to understand these mechanics because they are necessary for good power overhand throws AND they are similar up to a point to rotational hitting mechanics where arm action is also king.

In the case of high level rotational hitting, the motion can be thought of as bow-arch and flatbed-merrygoround. No final bow. No ferris wheel. In this case the scaps move out of phase instead of symmetrically and continue/stay loaded through contact with a different timing of weight shift synch and weight going forward then up,not continuing forward after the merrygoround starts.

In addition, scap action well beyond pinching and unpinching (elevation/depression/relative position and more), controlled by hand position and arm action (arm action is king), is important in on the fly adjustment of timing, cusp formation, "swing plane" and trajectory of bat within plane.

.

[Mark H]

How about you go over on eteamz baseball and see if you can wear out Kharma. One, I agree with you on throwing. Two, no one else has the stamina you and Kharma do.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I'm going to sound like a retard here, but what's scapula loading.

[jbooth]

I'm going to sound like a retard here, but what's scapula loading.

A ridiculous description of what happens with the shoulder blade during a swing or a pitch. I believe Paul Nyman started emphasizing it. If you know much about anatomy, kinesiology and/or how the bones move, you will come to realize it is the wrong bone to be putting any thought into.

The scapula (shoulder blade) moves up, down, toward and away from the spine, simultaneous with the direction that you move your elbow. If you raise your elbow above your head, the scapula rises. If you put your elbow at your hip, the scapula drops. If you move your elbow in front of your chest, the scapula slides around your side. If you move your elbow behind your back, the scapula pinches in toward your spine. The scapula is irrelevant to the action. A pitcher is thinking about where he wants to load the ball and his hand, before he throws. Since the best place to put the ball is a spot near the back of your head, with a bent elbow, and the elbow behind your back, the scapula will move in toward the spine. You should be concentrating on where the ball is, and where your elbow is, and not even bother about the scapula. JMO.

The best pitchers get the ball in the most effective loaded position and when you talk to them about how they throw, they never mention anything about their shoulder blade, yet when you watch them throw, te elbow is behind their back and the ball is behind their head. A lot of them don't even think about the elbow. They just move the ball to where they feel they can really unload it from, and in doing so, the elbow goes behind them, and when the elbow goes back the scapula must pinch (retract). They sure as heck aren't thinking about, or feeling what their shoulder blade is doing.

Likewise with hitters. They think about getting their hands in the best position to launch the bat from, and that causes the elbow to move back and the scapula to retract. An MLB hitter probably couldn't tell you which bone, the scapula is, let alone tell you that he thinks about its action in his swing.

[EdmondsFan#1]

so scapula loading is having your elbow directly behind your back shoulder bent in a 90 degree or less angle?

[jbooth]

so scapula loading is having your elbow directly behind your back shoulder bent in a 90 degree or less angle?

This is scap loading;

If you looked at him, in this position, from a plate or second base view, his elbow is pulled behind his back. His upper arm is not in line with second base. The line from his back shoulder, to his back elbow is aiming more toward where the second baseman plays.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/clemens-side.jpg

Here's another view of another pitcher;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/rivera5.jpg

[EdmondsFan#1]

so it's pinching the shoulder blades inward?

[jbooth]

so it's pinching the shoulder blades inward?

Yes.

I've been told (don't know it for fact), that the Japanese put a pencil between a prospective pitcher's shoulder blades, and make him pinch the blades together and hold the pencil between the shoulder blades. If he can't do that, they don't even let him try out for pitcher.

BTW, to keep stress off of the muscle in the front of your shoulder, you need to maintain the pinched shoulder blades until the shoulders have rotated and your chest is almost facing the catcher. You release (unload the scaps) late in the motion, as you start to straighten your elbow, to fire the ball.

If you don't load the scap (or keep your elbow back), the front shoulder muscle will try to pull your upper arm around. You don't want that. You want the upper arm to move with the shoulder joint, not separate from it. If you unload the scap too early, your arm is moving ahead of the shoulder joint and you wind up just throwing with your arm. The purpose of loading the scaps is to keep the head of the humerus (upper arm bone), locked into the shoulder joint, so it is the base of the whipping of the arm. If your arm is behind or ahead of the shoulder, you have a problem.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I don't see how scapula loading helps at all then, jesus, i think concentrating on every single little thing of pitching keeps a pitcher from performing as well as he could.

edit: on second thought, Joel Zumaya loads his scapulas.

If your elbows are behind your shoulders does that automatically cause the shoulders to be pinched inward? I was told to have elbows lined up with shoulders for control reasons.

[jbooth]

I don't see how scapula loading helps at all then, I think concentrating on every single little thing of pitching keeps a pitcher from performing as well as he could.

Scapula loading IS important, I thought I explained why. It keeps the upper arm stable at the shoulder joint.

If your elbows are behind your shoulders does that automatically cause the shoulder blades to be pinched inward?

Yes, to some degree.

I was told to have elbows lined up with shoulders for control reasons.

Yeah, probably by Dick Mills, who is wrong on that. If you keep your elbows lined up, it puts stress on the front of the deltoid, and the pectoralis major. (Front of shoulder.) The scapula load, removes that stress. The unloading of the scapula also helps the upper arm to move the elbow around. That force is minimal as far as adding MPH in itself, but it is an important addition and you generate more arm speed when the upper arm is stable at the joint and is being pulled around by the upper body as a whole, rather than by the deltoid and pec muscles, pulling it to catch up with the upper body rotation.

[GFK]

...If your elbows are behind your shoulders does that automatically cause the shoulders to be pinched inward? I was told to have elbows lined up with shoulders for control reasons.

If you are meaning "don't pinch the scaps" when you say "have elbows lined up with shoulders" then I would suggest to you that this is bad advice. It may improve your control because you have less body parts to control. It will limit / reduce your velocity.

Pitcher with limited / reduced velocity and good control = Batting Practice

[JJA]

I would also say that almost all little leaguers and many high school pitchers don't load their scaps well. Lots of times it is almost non-existent. Since virtually all big leaguers do it (even if they don't know they're doing it), it sure seems like something that should be taught, even if you don't want to use that terminology.

[tom.guerry]

Analytically/"functionally"/mechanically/biomechanically the scaps are extremely important.

They are not a locus of feel/proprioception/control which limits their usefulness as part of teachig "cues"/instruction. The hand/hands are the controller connected to and influencing the scaps by good arm (and forearm,etc) action. Arm action is king. The upper body then demands a certain type of support from the lower body, the type of support depending on what overall pattern the thrower is using as described best by Dixon for throwing and hitting - pull vs spin vs (high level) whip.

Dixon makes a useful classification scheme based on type of weight shift and arm action/position.

As the connection between the whip handle and the arm loop (buggywhip model/high level throwing) obviously the scaps are crucial.

My "personal interpretation" of the "functional" approach to describing the skills (throwing,swinging) is that the scaps have a momentum creation and transfer function which can be thought of as leading to the optimal creation of "cusp" or "xfactor stretch" where the body can transfer momentum as efficiently as possible to optimize swing quickness by reversing the cusp and starting the unloading/launch of the arm loop (or bathead) by elastic soft tissue properties as opposed to depending too much on muscular force production (do not "muscle"/"guide" the high level throw/swing).This is what Nyman focusses on as, for example described by Steve "mr. function" E in the "abreu" thread, for example :

STEVE: On the other hand here's what Paul Nyman recently said about the functional role of the shoulders [ "scapula loading-unloading"] in a high-level swing:

"It's not about generating longer distance to apply force to the bat.
"What it IS about is stiffening the muscles so that you can have an instaneous transfer from loading to unloading., ie , no "slop".What much of scapula loading is about is generating the "cusp".The cusp is an instantaneous change in direction.
"Acusp is NOT: loading ....wait....unloading.A cusp is bang bang;load-unload.

For the full thread and back and forth about how important a "hand job" might be in hitting as Steve likes to refer to it, see:

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/baseball/message.cfm?id=1346608

The "stiffening" is the way the body prepares to transfer momentum as instantaneously as "humanly" possible.

The same principle applies to throwing. In fact there IS a relationship to velocity as well in throwing (as distinct from the quickness requirment of the high level swing) which increases with the degree of "shoulder aBduction" (range of motion of throwing side scap aDduction-aBduction) in motionanlysis studies.

The advantages of efficiently harnessing this momentum principle is based on the fact that mechanically speaking, momentum transfer/conservation of momentum is near instantanous (as opposed to relatively slow muscle action).

A real life difficulty in implementing this mechanic well is that momentum transfer has a directionality requirement as well (momentum is related to velocity which has a vector/directionality component) which means there has to be leverage/links ( a skeletal/structural/bone-joint architecture) and adequate alignment of the links (rhythm/sequence/alignment/relative timing) to get consistent "summation of velocity"/"summation of levers" or a useful "kinetic link".

So the other absolutely CRUCIAL "function" involving the scaps is good DIRECTION (or directing) of momentum which can be thought of as related to arm slot and consistency of release point in throwing or on the fly adjustment in hitting as best described by Epstein (without any need for scap reference) as in the "drop and tilt" for example (simultaneous hip and shoulder action). Another crucial Epstein observation is how shoulder action relates to characteristics of "weight shift". Lots of other good stuff too that takes much of this into account without using the "S" word (scap).

Hand action at release has a profound "backward/downward causation" influence on the entire thowing motion.

For the simplest description of key throwing timing and sequencing AND how this relates to lowering stress and injury get a hold of Jeff Hodge's
BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

[jbooth]

Analytically/"functionally"/mechanically/biomechanically the scaps are extremely important.

They are not a locus of feel/proprioception/control which limits their usefulness as part of teachig "cues"/instruction. The hand/hands are the controller connected to and influencing the scaps by good arm (and forearm,etc) action. Arm action is king. The upper body then demands a certain type of support from the lower body, the type of support depending on what overall pattern the thrower is using as described best by Dixon for throwing and hitting - pull vs spin vs (high level) whip.

Dixon makes a useful classification scheme based on type of weight shift and arm action/position.

As the connection between the whip handle and the arm loop (buggywhip model/high level throwing) obviously the scaps are crucial.

My "personal interpretation" of the "functional" approach to describing the skills (throwing,swinging) is that the scaps have a momentum creation and transfer function which can be thought of as leading to the optimal creation of "cusp" or "xfactor stretch" where the body can transfer momentum as efficiently as possible to optimize swing quickness by reversing the cusp and starting the unloading/launch of the arm loop (or bathead) by elastic soft tissue properties as opposed to depending too much on muscular force production (do not "muscle"/"guide" the high level throw/swing).This is what Nyman focusses on as, for example described by Steve "mr. function" E in the "abreu" thread, for example :

STEVE: On the other hand here's what Paul Nyman recently said about the functional role of the shoulders [ "scapula loading-unloading"] in a high-level swing:

"It's not about generating longer distance to apply force to the bat.
"What it IS about is stiffening the muscles so that you can have an instaneous transfer from loading to unloading., ie , no "slop".What much of scapula loading is about is generating the "cusp".The cusp is an instantaneous change in direction.
"Acusp is NOT: loading ....wait....unloading.A cusp is bang bang;load-unload.

For the full thread and back and forth about how important a "hand job" might be in hitting as Steve likes to refer to it, see:

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/baseball/message.cfm?id=1346608

The "stiffening" is the way the body prepares to transfer momentum as instantaneously as "humanly" possible.

The same principle applies to throwing. In fact there IS a relationship to velocity as well in throwing (as distinct from the quickness requirment of the high level swing) which increases with the degree of "shoulder aBduction" (range of motion of throwing side scap aDduction-aBduction) in motionanlysis studies.

The advantages of efficiently harnessing this momentum principle is based on the fact that mechanically speaking, momentum transfer/conservation of momentum is near instantanous (as opposed to relatively slow muscle action).

A real life difficulty in implementing this mechanic well is that momentum transfer has a directionality requirement as well (momentum is related to velocity which has a vector/directionality component) which means there has to be leverage/links ( a skeletal/structural/bone-joint architecture) and adequate alignment of the links (rhythm/sequence/alignment/relative timing) to get consistent "summation of velocity"/"summation of levers" or a useful "kinetic link".

So the other absolutely CRUCIAL "function" involving the scaps is good DIRECTION (or directing) of momentum which can be thought of as related to arm slot and consistency of release point in throwing or on the fly adjustment in hitting as best described by Epstein (without any need for scap reference) as in the "drop and tilt" for example (simultaneous hip and shoulder action). Another crucial Epstein observation is how shoulder action relates to characteristics of "weight shift". Lots of other good stuff too that takes much of this into account without using the "S" word (scap).

Hand action at release has a profound "backward/downward causation" influence on the entire thowing motion.

For the simplest description of key throwing timing and sequencing AND how this relates to lowering stress and injury get a hold of Jeff Hodge's
BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

Isn't it simpler to just tell a 12 year-old to get his elbow back early, and keep it back until his until is chest is almost facing the plate?

You make things to complex Tom, even though you may be on the right track.

[tom.guerry]

Jim-

That's why Epstein is so good. Simplicity on the other side of complexity. Combining feel and function to communicate the motion simply and develop an adequate teaching progression that fits with successful hitting (as opposed to swinging) approaches, not just swinging in a vacuum.

[Chris O'Leary]

If you know much about anatomy, kinesiology and/or how the bones move, you will come to realize it is the wrong bone to be putting any thought into...You should be concentrating on where the ball is, and where your elbow is, and not even bother about the scapula. JMO...The best pitchers get the ball in the most effective loaded position and when you talk to them about how they throw, they never mention anything about their shoulder blade, yet when you watch them throw, te elbow is behind their back and the ball is behind their head. A lot of them don't even think about the elbow. They just move the ball to where they feel they can really unload it from, and in doing so, the elbow goes behind them, and when the elbow goes back the scapula must pinch (retract). They sure as heck aren't thinking about, or feeling what their shoulder blade is doing.

I agree.

It's something that happens naturally.

[Chris O'Leary]

I was told to have elbows lined up with shoulders for control reasons.

I believe that trying to do this -- trying to keep some scap loading from naturally happening -- could be bad because it could place too much strain on the rotator cuff.

This is another place where I break with Dr. Marshall.

[Chris O'Leary]

I would also say that almost all little leaguers and many high school pitchers don't load their scaps well. Lots of times it is almost non-existent. Since virtually all big leaguers do it (even if they don't know they're doing it), it sure seems like something that should be taught, even if you don't want to use that terminology.

I disagree.

I view a lack of scap loading as the RESULT of not doing what it takes to throw hard (e.g. not rotating the hips ahead of the shoulders) rather than the CAUSE of not throwing hard.

In other words, it's confusing cause and effect.

It's the same thing with external rotation of the PAS upper arm. I believe that it is the RESULT of throwing hard (due to the rapid rotation of the shoulders) rather than the CAUSE of throwing hard.

[JJA]

Chris,

I think this is just semantics. I assume if you saw a player who did not load his/her scaps, you would provide some cue that would promote it. You don't have to use the term with the player, but it is certainly a good diagnostic for the coach to figure out if the player is throwing properly or not. Agree?

-JJA

[Chris O'Leary]

You don't have to use the term with the player, but it is certainly a good diagnostic for the coach to figure out if the player is throwing properly or not. Agree?

I don't know about "properly" (since a guy can throw hard but still have problematic mechanics), but in the absence of a radar gun you can certainly tell how hard a guy is throwing by looking at things like degree of scap loading and external rotation of the PAS upper arm.

When I look at video clips that people send me of guys pitching, I am usually quite accurate when it comes to determining how hard a guy is throwing relative to his peers.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I was just trying scapula loading yesterday and it was awful for me :noidea . It was if anything slower, and my arms felt like they were 2 inches long.


I threw alot harder when i didn't think about how i was pitching period and just getting the ball where i wanted it to go.

[Chris O'Leary]

I was just trying scapula loading yesterday and it was awful for me :noidea . It was if anything slower, and my arms felt like they were 2 inches long.

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Too often if you think about doing something that the body does naturally, you make things worse rather than better.

Just let it happen.

[GFK]

I was just trying scapula loading yesterday and it was awful for me :noidea . It was if anything slower, and my arms felt like they were 2 inches long.


I threw alot harder when i didn't think about how i was pitching period and just getting the ball where i wanted it to go.

Do you really expect to be able to perfect loading and unloading your scapula in one day? If you could do it, that would be very impressive. Most of the guys you see in the bigs spent years perfecting their craft. Most of the perfection for pitching and hitting boils down to perfecting the loading and unloading.

If you were not doing it before, it should have felt "awful". How do you know it was slower? Did you have anything there for feedback? (i.e. Video or Radar)

[Chris O'Leary]

Do you really expect to be able to perfect loading and unloading your scapula in one day? If you could do it, that would be very impressive. Most of the guys you see in the bigs spent years perfecting their craft. Most of the perfection for pitching and hitting boils down to perfecting the loading and unloading.

Can you name one professional pitcher who actually worked/works on scap loading?

I have talked to several successful MLB pitchers (e.g. Scott Terry formerly of the Cardinals) and they had no idea what I was talking about.

Do they use a different name for it (e.g. proud chest)?

[GFK]

Can you name one professional pitcher who actually worked/works on scap loading?

I have talked to several successful MLB pitchers (e.g. Scott Terry formerly of the Cardinals) and they had no idea what I was talking about.

Do they use a different name for it (e.g. proud chest)?

I bet they don't know what you were talking about. They more than likely use different terms.

The overwhelming majority of MLB Pitcher Video shows some form of scap load. This leaves you with two choices.

1) They came out of the womb knowing how to do it.
2) They went on a trial and error process to optimize velocity and control. Along the way, they figured out how to load and unload. Part of the load and unload are the muscles associated with the scap.

[XFactor]

If you focus on one thing in the pitching motion, it can slow down the other parts and affect velocity, control, etc... You may already have been loading your scaps without ever realizing it, unless you have video proof otherwise

I've always just thrown like that naturally, I never had anyone say "Now Sean, load your scaps."
I'd be like "What the heck are you talkin about?!"

[JJA]

Guys,

This isn't rocket science. Throwing instruction in baseball is even worse in general than even hitting instruction which is saying a lot. Scaps haven't been mentioned because there have been very few people that have carefully analyzed the throwing motion. However, now at least some folks have done some analysis and pointed out that 99% of the MLBer's do load and unload their scaps when they pitch. Whether you like the term or not, whether you think it is a teach, or whether you would even want to use the term scap load with your students is your call. But the video of your pitching students better show their scaps loading and unloading or else you're not doing your job.

There is no secret here. Always use video. Compare you and/or your students to the video of the best players in the world. If they aren't doing what the big leaguers are doing - and loading/unloading of the scaps is a given - then that player isn't demonstrating big league mechanics.

Nothing more, nothing less.

-JJA

[stever]

JJA-
Agreed!

Mystery about “scapula loading”????????

Not a mystery. This term came about to describe in general the adducting of the shoulder blades when throwing at high velocities. No one ever said how much, when or where it should take place…it does happen, don’t disregard the mechanic. Very much the same that the hips open into foot plant…not “land closed off, nothing happens until after foot plant”….a lot happens prior to foot plant. As well, the posting leg push…no one ever said how much push, when or where it should take place…it does happen, don’t disregard the mechanic.

Dick Mills and other high profile instructors in the same circle (that went from coast to coast teaching the same thing) were in effect teaching a “no load” of the scapula. And as a result, they were teaching mechanics that created disconnect from the arm and the rest of the body resulting in excessive pressure to the throwing shoulder. “Circle up….keep the elbows in line with the shoulders,” “don’t allow the elbows to go behind the shoulders” fence drill, was part of high velocity formula that was leading the way to lower velocities.

[bronxkid]

I was just trying scapula loading yesterday and it was awful for me :noidea . It was if anything slower, and my arms felt like they were 2 inches long.

I threw alot harder when i didn't think about how i was pitching period and just getting the ball where i wanted it to go.

Are you kidding me. This single move, with practice and alot more patience than a couple of hours, single handedly helped my son achieve a great deal of velocity with no elbow problems.He threw the hardest and was not the biggest kid in his REC ball league. Call it what you want but it is extremely important for pitchers to do and for undersize pitchers to achieve. I watched Joel Zumaya pitch in Chula Vista and I knew he would be special. He throws gas and he really loads his scaps.

:eek:

Oh no, it's the Mike Marshall Klan invading the boards again!

[Chris O'Leary]

Are you kidding me. This single move, with practice and alot more patience than a couple of hours, single handedly helped my son achieve a great deal of velocity with no elbow problems.

Maybe what helped your son was all the practice, and the conditioning he got as a result, rather than the scap loading.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Do you really expect to be able to perfect loading and unloading your scapula in one day? If you could do it, that would be very impressive. Most of the guys you see in the bigs spent years perfecting their craft. Most of the perfection for pitching and hitting boils down to perfecting the loading and unloading.

If you were not doing it before, it should have felt "awful". How do you know it was slower? Did you have anything there for feedback? (i.e. Video or Radar)

what do you mean feed back?

I know that I couldn't move my upper body right, getting no torso into the ball and that it was 10 mph slower than if i don't care what i'm doing throwing a fastball hard at a target.

bronxkid: i have been working on this for 3 days, just made me slower. Also, I don't care what your son did because I might be loading my scaps naturally anyway and that's why it is making me throw slower to try. Also, undersize pitchers to achieve? Size has nothing do with pitching, there is nothing you can say to convince me it does. The only thing size has to do with pitching is sometimes that the littler guys get more injuries, But the fastest throwers on my team were all thin and undersized, including me, but one.

[Encinitas]

There are various ways you can load the scaps. Watch Wagner and compare to Zumaya. Wagner sort of breaks and goes straight out to scapular loading. Zumaya gets his elbows above the shoulder and violently, and quickly goes from the ball being well under his elbow to being above his elbow and to the inside, back behind his head as the chest comes forward.

You can choose to ignore the scaps like some instructors have, or you can look at pro pitchers who throw hard, and all seem to do this, and figure out what it is that you like.

I went in front of a mirror, and experimented with several different ways of loading until I found the one I like.

[bronxkid]

Maybe what helped your son was all the practice, and the conditioning he got as a result, rather than the scap loading.

Always looking for the easy answer. I was there, I worked with him for countless hours. ALl I know is when he loaded the scaps he got better and as a result the velocity went up. Believe in what you want and listen to what you will.

As far as the little thin pitching comment. IF you are a right handed pitcher and want to purse college or major league dreams. You better be over 6'4" with a 94 plus MPH fastball.

If your name isn't Wagner, Gordon, or Martinez your chances of making it to the big leagues are even slimmer.

:gt