Elbow above Shoulder, unusual and unsafe?

[EdmondsFan#1]

I have heard by Chris O'Leary that elbow below shoulder is a mechanical problem and will cause shoulder injuries. I however find this statement untrue, and I know alot of other pitching specialist won't say to have the elbow below shoulder. Infact, in Dick Mills pamflet he points a kids elbow out that is below his shoulder and says having a low elbow is a mechanical problem.

No offense, Chris, I agree with you on everything I read on your page but this. And I used it for a month now, and since last week i have switched to having it above my shoulder and i must say i am alot more succesful.


You have also pointed out that is unusual and most major league players do not have their elbow above their shoulder, i thought this was also untrue. Alot of the pitchers in pictures that have their elbow below their shoulder is because of the sequence of the pitching motion is was taken in. For every pitcher i have looked up i have found at one point they have their elbows above their shoulders, except for 2.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/Zito13.jpg
Barry zito has his elbow above his shoulder.


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/Pedro.jpg
Pedro martinez has his elbow above or maybe level with his shoulder, And uses the inverted W? Looks like Mark Priors mechanics aren't so odd after all.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/cubs-kerry-wood-sept-26.jpg
Kerry Wood doesn't have his elbow below his shoulder.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/Carpenter.jpg
Chris carpenter, also has his elbow above his shoulder, it's just at what point was the picture taken.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/0324PhilsTigers9.jpg
Hmm... Fastest pitcher of today who has hit 103 mph this year uses the inverted W and has his elbow way above his shoulder? Impossible :eek:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/04-johan-santana-cy-young-winner-sm.jpg
Johan santana with a picture of his elbow above his shoulder, and nearly using the inverted W.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/2f5f8c5a-6f2d-45ca-b064-42ba50dbae7.jpg
Verlander with his elbow above his shoulder.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/images-1.jpg
Hear is dontrelle willis who has never had a injury with his elbow above his shoulder.





Yes, pedro martinez is out on a shoulder injury. But he is out of shape, and 32 or so years old. Mark mulder didn't have his elbow above his shoulder and his shoulder was fraying, and he is 29 or so. Innings, innings, innings. Not mechanics.
Kerry Wood is injured, but not becuase his elbow above his shoulder becuase Dusty Baker is rough on his pitchers and kerry wood is all arm.

Maybe some of the pitchers i have tooken a pic of have do not have their elbow above their shoulder before their trunk rotation, but it would cause the same amount of stress on the shoulder if the elbow is crossing the shoulder above it.

I think if anything the elbow being above the shoulder might hurt because it is actually using the power of the shoulders which are very important in pitching.


My conclusion, side-armers and submarine pitchers have lower average velocitys because the elbow must be below the shoulder in order to perform this. Which is why they probably throw slower becuase of improper mechanics... Although there is nothing wrong with being a sidearm/submarine pitcher.


Edit: I have found on your website you discussing joel zumaya, yes I do think he will last and even if he was in the starting rotation, but i guess the world will see. Guys are probably getting shoulder injuries not because of this because when i watch pitchers the vast majority of them have their elbows above their shoulders at one point before their hand is in front of the body, I think they are getting injuries because of lack of conditioning. And since from my recordings the vast majority of pitchers have their elbows above their shoulders because since most of the pitchers do it there is a higher chance of that group getting an injury. So it is nothing but coincidence and any side armer/submariner has the same chances of injuring their shoulder because any type of pitching slowly tears up the shoulder and that's that.

[XFactor]

Ideally you'd want your elbow to be right in line with your shoulder, so that the hitters don't see the ball until you're whipping forward. (If it's above, it'd give the batters a chance to see your grip when you are in the "cocked" position, which is elbow in line with your shoulder, ball facing SS or 2B or somewhere around that area if you are right/left handed respectively) If it's below, that puts unecessary stess on your shoulder.

[EdmondsFan#1]

So you are saying that if the elbow is below the shoulder that causes unneccisary stress? I already knew that...


I mean is above the shoulder it does not put unnecisary stress on the shoulder. And that alot of major leaguers do it and it's not unusual.

[Chris O'Leary]

I believe that the elbow should be at, or just below, the level of the shoulders (e.g. Greg Maddux and Nolan Ryan). Both too high and too low are bad, but for different reasons.

Regarding specific pitchers, in most of the cases you cited (e.g. Zito, Wood, Carpenter, Santana, Verlander, Willis) their elbows are NOT above the level of their shoulders in the photos you gave, because their shoulders are tilted.

Willis does take his elbows above and behind his shoulders, but earlier in his motion than in the photo you gave.

Pedro's elbows are above and behind his shoulders in the photo you gave. I don't think it's a coincidence that he is currently down with a shoulder problem.

Zumaya's elbow is above and behind his shoulder. I believe he will experience shoulder problems.

I believe that Mulder's problem may be related to his having his elbow too low, which is rare in my experience.

[EdmondsFan#1]

How do the shoulders being tilted have anything to do with it when the elbow is still coming around that shoulder above it (when it's tilted) how does this cause any less stress?

Also, pedro martinez, he has gotten alot fatter which means he probably doesn't condition himself properly and he is getting sort of old. I don't see many pitchers make it past middle-aged ages without injuries, he is older which makes his joints weaker and more vulnerable.

[Chris O'Leary]

How do the shoulders being tilted have anything to do with it when the elbow is still coming around that shoulder above it (when it's tilted) how does this cause any less stress?

Because of the anatomy of the shoulder (e.g. the Acromion), whether someone is vulnerable to an impingement injury depends on the position of the elbow relative to the level of the shoulders.

It's fine if the elbow is high as long as the shoulders are tilted, because in that case the elbow is still below the level of the shoulders.

In the case of Chris Carpenter, his elbow is high, but his shoulders are also tilted, so his elbow is below a line drawn through his shoulders.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/Carpenter.jpg

The same thing is true for Barry Zito...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/Zito13.jpg

It's all relative.

[jojab]

I believe...

You have to take what Chris says with a grain of salt. Understand that he learned a lot of what he believes from the Mike Marshall school of pitching (he discloses this on his website). Marshall, from what I understand, thinks that all major league pitchers are using bad mechanics and that he (Marshall) teaches good mechanics but no one at the MLB level will listen to him. :noidea

Of course Marshall would help his cause by actually producing someone who makes it to the MLB. Until then, you'll be better served to do what EdmondsFan is doing; comparing what he hears to what high-level players actually do (although video clips would be better than the stills).

Smoltz:

http://www.filelodge.com/files/room38/1081215/JSmoltz2005_ArmAction.gif

http://www.filelodge.com/files/room38/1081215/JSmoltz2005_ArmAction.gif

[jojab]

By the way, although some pitchers (Smoltz and Wagner, for example) take their elbows above their shoulders earlier in their motions, by the time they approach release the elbow is back in line with the shoulders as shown here:

[Chris O'Leary]

By the way, although some pitchers (Smoltz and Wagner, for example) take their elbows above their shoulders earlier in their motions, by the time they approach release the elbow is back in line with the shoulders as shown here:

I agree.

It is very rare (but I have seen a few cases of it) for a pitcher's elbow to be above the level of his shoulders at the release point.

[Chris O'Leary]

You have to take what Chris says with a grain of salt. Understand that he learned a lot of what he believes from the Mike Marshall school of pitching (he discloses this on his website). Marshall, from what I understand, thinks that all major league pitchers are using bad mechanics and that he (Marshall) teaches good mechanics but no one at the MLB level will listen to him.

Just for the record, this is one place where I break with Dr. Marshall.

He thinks the whole "elbows above the shoulders" thing is a non-issue because it isn't physically possible. Based on things like the photo below of Anthony Reyes, I believe it is physically possible and something that increases the likelihood that a pitcher will experience shoulder problems.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_AnthonyReyes _002.jpg

[Billybob622]

ok since they're shoulders are tilted, i have a quick question. Will tilting the shoulders eventually cause lower back problems? like bad disks? I'm just wondering, because i pitch straight over and my shoulders/torso is tilted like Barry Zito and Verlander.

[Chris O'Leary]

ok since they're shoulders are tilted, i have a quick question. Will tilting the shoulders eventually cause lower back problems? like bad disks? I'm just wondering, because i pitch straight over and my shoulders/torso is tilted like Barry Zito and Verlander.

Possibly (especially as you get closer to pure overhead), but I don't think it's that likely.

I think the bigger risk is to submariners like Chad Bradford who twist while being very tilted over.

[GFK]

Just for the record, this is one place where I break with Dr. Marshall.

He thinks the whole "elbows above the shoulders" thing is a non-issue because it isn't physically possible. Based on things like the photo below of Anthony Reyes, I believe it is physically possible and something that increases the likelihood that a pitcher will experience shoulder problems.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Pitching/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_AnthonyReyes _002.jpg

To all, I added the bold in the quote.

Chris, how much will the likelihood of shoulder problems increase? One needs to be very critical in evaluation of statistical results.

In example, some government entity comes out and says, if you drink the local water, you are twice as likely to catch cancer. Sounds scary. Then you find out it is the difference in a 0.01% and 0.02% chance.

This is one example. Lots of incidence of coincidence being attributed correlation. Researcher looks at Eskimos and New Yorkers to compare heart disease. Determines the rate for New Yorkers is much higher. Sees the Eskimos eat more fish than the NYer. Decides fish oil must be the reason for the difference and launches a vitamin trend. No consideration given to the difference in life style, stress level, environmental conditions, genetics...

[Mark H]

Chris, I wish you would quit using stills and start using clips to study pitching.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/pro

[EdmondsFan#1]

By the way, although some pitchers (Smoltz and Wagner, for example) take their elbows above their shoulders earlier in their motions, by the time they approach release the elbow is back in line with the shoulders as shown here:

I think they do this because unless you go overhand it would feel completely unnatural and probably make you miss high more often.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Wow, derek jeter and A-rod also have their elbow above their shoulder.

I think their elbow drops way down when crossing the shoulder because infielders throw side-arm so there isn't sail on the ball. But their elbows are like Joel Zumaya high.