Gary Sheffield: Quickest Hands in the World

[Sonny Schmidt]

If you want a quick pair of hands, watch Gary Sheffield.

[-Kyle-]

And Willie Stargell.

[bbjunkie]

If you want a quick pair of hands, watch Gary Sheffield.
Not surprisingly he also has the fastest bat speed in mlb.

[swingbuster]

He applies prelaunch hand torque to the barrel as he blends the rotation of the barrel around the hands at swing initiation with the turning of the body.

Every good player applies hand torque to the barrel at swing initiation.

Gary's counter clockwise winding up of the barrel makes it more obvious that some physical sequence is working. ''Joe Mauer's handle torque is a lot harder to see in one plane.

People don't see Joes' and think it doesn't exist. They see Sheffields and know they can't teach that.

There is some middle ground and some drills that are Sheffield-like to turn that hand torque rotation center into part of the swing to keep from leaving the barrel behind.

And Sonny ( from below) Sheffield creates the MOST circular of hand paths with his mechanism. BUt your right that he doesn't " think or worry about it" as it is pre programed. That part can be an easy teach

[Sonny Schmidt]

Not surprisingly he also has the fastest bat speed in mlb.

Of course - credited with the fact he doesn't worry about a circular hand path. He just watches the ball, and throws the kitchen sink at it!

[Sonny Schmidt]

He applies prelaunch hand torque to the barrel as he blends the rotation of the barrel around the hands at swing initiation with the turning of the body.

Every good player applies hand torque to the barrel at swing initiation.

Gary's counter clockwise winding up of the barrel makes it more obvious that some physical sequence is working. ''Joe Mauer's handle torque is a lot harder to see in one plane.

People don't see Joes' and think it doesn't exist. They see Sheffields and know they can't teach that.

There is some middle ground and some drills that are Sheffield-like to turn that hand torque rotation center into part of the swing to keep from leaving the barrel behind.


If you watch closely at his swing, you'll notice that he has a kick-back load in his lauch sequence. This allows Shef to apply top-hand in his initiation, and keep the swing compact.

[swingbuster]

If you watch closely at his swing, you'll notice that he has a kick-back load in his lauch sequence. This allows Shef to apply top-hand in his initiation, and keep the swing compact.

I think the kick back sends the barrel accelerating back around the back arc of the swing plane.

The kick back bends the top hand knuckles back. This Reduces the top hand leverage at launch( stops bat drag) and connects the lead shoulder to the turn. It sets up the TOP HAND to whip/ hit later at contact.

It is important that the top hand not grab the bat at early launch at try to go to the ball. If you so will not set up the segmented " whip"

[hiddengem]

If you want a quick pair of hands, watch Gary Sheffield.


Quick hands?? Whats that?... the hands don't do anything in the swing;)

FYI, Sheffield routinely would go under the tunnel before AB's and squeeze a "gripper" just before his AB's to get his hands and forearms warmed up. Same idea as swinging a weighted bat on deck, its makes the bat feel lighter and your hands quicker.

[Mark H]

He applies prelaunch hand torque to the barrel as he blends the rotation of the barrel around the hands at swing initiation with the turning of the body.



Swingbuster, you are just going to confuse him. I believe he thinks you throw the hands like following link. Please get him straightened out on that before you go into your tht bhut thoughts.

http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

[swingbuster]

Mark....never know about Sonny...

I think he is seeing it

[Mark H]

It? .

[wogdoggy]

even with all his hand "TORQUE" and flash arm movement hand movement,,when he hits the ground hes PCR...go figure huh swingy?

[Mark H]

Tom and SB,

I suspect you would both agree that from the time a high level hitter starts rotation he connects that rotation to the bat and does NOT "throw" his hands as in the quick hands linked clip. For the sake of Sonny's students, please hold off on HOW the connection is best achieved or any universal patterns discussion until you get him straightened out on that.

[scrface744]

Not surprisingly he also has the fastest bat speed in mlb.
umm yes he has fast bat speed....but im gona say the fastest is alfonso soriano

[Dodgerfan1]

I know he was roided up, but the quickest bat I ever saw was Jose Canseco. I once saw a slow motion replay of one of his huge cuts, and I swear it was just a blur.

[ssarge]

Elite SP players top out their swing speed at around 120mph, or 20% faster than the fastest in MLB, and 25% faster than the typical.

Obviously, bat speed isn't everything. It is more a matter of how fast you can swing while maintaining QUICKNESS (elapsed time of swing). Which allows a hitter to wait longer to initiate, and to gain more data on the pitch,

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

FYI, Sheffield routinely would go under the tunnel before AB's and squeeze a "gripper" just before his AB's to get his hands and forearms warmed up. Same idea as swinging a weighted bat on deck, its makes the bat feel lighter and your hands quicker.

Agreed, it will make them FEEL quicker.

Regards,

Scott

[Mark H]

Tom and SB,

I suspect you would both agree that from the time a high level hitter starts rotation he connects that rotation to the bat and does NOT "throw" his hands as in the quick hands linked clip. For the sake of Sonny's students, please hold off on HOW the connection is best achieved or any universal patterns discussion until you get him straightened out on that.

Tom and SB,

I had hoped you would respond to this. You are both very quick to type voluminously about your favorite beliefs. I'm asking you to take some time to educate Sonny on the basics of the swing. For the sake of the kids he will teach, I ask you to set aside universal sequences and bhut long enough to make sure Sonny understands you don't "throw" the hands as demonstrated in the following link as it is sounds like he does. For the kids guys.

http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

[bbjunkie]

umm yes he has fast bat speed....but im gona say the fastest is alfonso soriano
I'm just going by what one of the announcers said during one of the games.

[swingbuster]

I suspect you would both agree that from the time a high level hitter starts rotation he connects that rotation to the bat and does NOT "throw" his hands as in the quick hands linked clip. For the sake of Sonny's students, please hold off on HOW the connection is best achieved or any universal patterns discussion until you get him straightened out on that.


I would turn the barrel into the plane ( from above the plane) as the swing begins. That would mean starting the barrel turning from a more vertical plane to trying to match the plane of the pitch. If you can match the shoulders and the barrel depending on pitch location fine.

The LSU golf coach made an interesting statement.....

" Hitting the ball far is not about clubspeed; it is about applying pressure to the back side of the ball. " Hummmmm

A baseball is pitched middle/ away and a bat hits the outside seam...
( pulled/ wrapped) even if hit with great batspeed is not applying pressure to the ball correctly.

A sliced golf ball with great clubhead speed hit the outside of the ball with suboptimal compression.

Better figure how to get the bat on the ball center.

Plane transition...inside/ out swings etc etc

[Mark H]

Can you not help yourself? He doesn't need to know that stuff. He needs to know THIS IS NOT CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html


For the sake of the kids he's going to teach get off all that bhut for just one friggin' moment and give him some basics. Convince him FIRST that he does have to connect the bottom hand to rotation BEFORE you tell him HOW you think he ought to do it. FOCUS, for just a moment here for the sake of his students!

[swingbuster]

For the sake of the kids he's going to teach get off all that bhut for just one friggin' moment and give him some basics. Convince him FIRST that he does have to connect the bottom hand to rotation BEFORE you tell him HOW you think he ought to do it. FOCUS, for just a moment here for the sake of his students!

Sonny...you need to connect the bottom hand to the rotation. There!

Now Sonny I am going to tell you HOW to teach a kid to connect the bottom hand at swing initiation in 5 seconds rather than 5 years.

You do it by un-leveraging the top hand. Pronate the top hand and it cannot pull the knob. A higher rear elbow and a pronated top hand cannot pull the knob. That leaves one hands that can connect.....the bottom hand.

But SOnny , there is a lot more to the swing than connecting the bottom hand because they can still just pull with the lead shoulder in a well connected swing and be very slow getting the barrel around or have serious problems hitting oppo field


If you don't want to pronate the top hand then bend you top hand wrist back knuckles toward the elbow and loosen the top hand index finger grip. Cock the bottom hand wrist ( thumb to elbow) It is harder to pull the knob with the top hand from those positions... Pay attention to the grip as it affects the wrist angles and watch the difference. 90% of the kids have the hands and wrist at the wrong angles and it kills those levers and forces a tendency to top hand pull rather setting up for barrel release.

Proper hand set( in either plane) can really help to fix the problem. It can be an easier teach with proper hand set/ grip/ wrist angles.


THe bottom line is that your top hand cannot be in a position to pull the bat and if it is pulling then it is in the wrong position

Kids don't always need to know all of that. Put your hands here and GO! Watch , reset, GO! Hit the inside seam...GO!.

You must really know what " here " means and teach that well.

Hell...you cannot learn to hit on- line. Go watch the Golf Channel. The top hand wrist is bent back at the top of the swing , bent back on approach , bent back leading through the hitting zone ........

[Mark H]

Well thanks for giving it one sentence but I think you better make sure he understands or he's going to take your bhut and put it right in front of the movement you seen in the quick hands video clip and THAT won't work.

[swingbuster]

One sentence...the quick hands clip is not whats happening in a good swing.


Mark...I did give support to the ability to bottom hand connect in one plane. Better check those hands and wrist angles though.

:dance

[Chameleon]

With all due respect to one of the nicest guys on the net...........Mark H.......I think you could use some study time.

I know you are heavily invested. I just ask you too look deeper. There is more going on than what is being sold. And, it falls into the category of you can only see what you can see.

There is a reason why ALL that play at a high level insist the hands are very important yet the internet gurus claim the opposite. Unfortunately, there is a meaningful explanation for this important role of the hands that has been rejected by your leadership.

Why that happens is distressing to me.

[wogdoggy]

He better learn to use his hands before anything else.


better check that overhead of rose using that great handspeed.

[Mark H]

One sentence...the quick hands clip is not whats happening in a good swing.


Mark...I did give support to the ability to bottom hand connect in one plane. Better check those hands and wrist angles though.

:dance

OK. Sonny, you on board with this or no?

[Mark H]

With all due respect to one of the nicest guys on the net...........Mark H.......I think you could use some study time.

I know you are heavily invested. I just ask you too look deeper. There is more going on than what is being sold. And, it falls into the category of you can only see what you can see.

There is a reason why ALL that play at a high level insist the hands are very important yet the internet gurus claim the opposite. Unfortunately, there is a meaningful explanation for this important role of the hands that has been rejected by your leadership.

Why that happens is distressing to me.

I think you didn't get the whole package before you left and I think you misinterpret the nature of what you feel but of course, I always continue to study. Hope college ball goes well for your son.

[virg]

With all due respect to one of the nicest guys on the net...........Mark H.......I think you could use some study time.

I know you are heavily invested. I just ask you too look deeper. There is more going on than what is being sold. And, it falls into the category of you can only see what you can see.

There is a reason why ALL that play at a high level insist the hands are very important yet the internet gurus claim the opposite. Unfortunately, there is a meaningful explanation for this important role of the hands that has been rejected by your leadership.

Why that happens is distressing to me.

eye-hand coordination? [or is it 'hand-eye'] If there is such as that it must apply here.

[tom.guerry]

Sonny-

Don't use the arms/forearms to throw the hands.

Mark -

Now maybe you can tell Sonny you don't adjust for location by torso tilt, unless you like being a spinner.

HAve Steve and the posse had a religious conversion about how to adjust on the fly ?

If not, I don't think chameleon missed much.

[Mark H]

I know you think that but since you haven't seen the dvd, the website or Steve it's unlikely you know what he teaches. Thanks for the one sentence to make sure Sonny doesn't teach disconnection/throw the hands to his hitters. I appreciate your concern is first for the kids and second for the debate.

[Chameleon]

...but since you haven't seen the dvd, the website or Steve it's unlikely you know what he teaches.

I have seen all three. To suggest I didn't get it all has to mean there is revision going on.......in the last 2 or 3 weeks.:D

[tom.guerry]

Mark-

PCR based approaches unless FUNDAMENTALLY/RECENTLY revised can NOT encourage development to high level except by the student ignoring the PCR description and using trial and error,then being attracted into the innately inborn tendency toward the high level pattern which is stimulated by the right match of student and task.

In Dixon terms, PCR is SPIN, not high level arm action, not high level weight shift.

Spin is a vast improvement for girl's who are disconnected pullers (low level pattern). Getting them to the midlevel spin is a great improvement.

However, Teaching the PCR/spin as your goal (which is still the unconscious, or "tacit" at best, goal of PCR unless the light bulb has turned on very recently) does kids a great disservice IF you believe that the goal should be to emulate the high level mlb whip pattern.

The high level pattern requires other means than "torso tilt" to optimize cusp,quickness,timing and plane match.

Maybe you could stop harming the potential of kids by getting them stuck in the spin pattern with PCR based principles, at least the baseball kids.

[Mark H]

Whatever Tom. Thanks for your efforts with Sonny.

[Sonny Schmidt]

OK. Sonny, you on board with this or no?


Yes, but those hands still play an important role in directing the swing plane. You can have the most powerful rotation in the world, but if you aren't utilising those hands, you are sure to miss.

[Mark H]

Well at least we aren't throwing them. Good.

[wogdoggy]

I see Tom's newest theory is pcr creates "spinners"..thats beautiful Tom.

[swingbuster]

Woggy,

Until you acknowledge this your teaching spinning based on the majority of the clips I have seen.

Focusing on that area .....do this


Take you lead elbow and lower it ,while bent, to you chest. Hold you hand out in front of your collar bone/ arm pit area.

Make a fist but stick your thumb up.

Rotate the shoulder joint back until the thumb pointed up and is tipped slightly to the pitcher.

Now , while holding that position rotate just your forearm hard toward you toward you flicking the thumb toward your shoulder in a circular pattern

Now imagine the bat being an extension of your thumb.

Is the bat being accelerated into the back side of the arc..." getting a running start" ( DMAC)?

No add the force of the arm/ elbow movement...lead elbow up and the high rear elbow slotting down and you see the greater muscle mass that is adding power to the running start.

THe hands do apply torque( forces in opposite directions) to the handle from swing initiation to completion.

While in a perfect swing on a perfect ball location, the hips turn to completion and the shoulders turn to completion before the forearms release on the ball

In many swings where adjustments are made for location or quickness , the hands have to get off the merry go round early and hit the ball with the secondary engine.
It can turn into hips and hands easily

Having the grip right to optimize the forearm rotation is essential


QUOTE
Make a fist but stick your thumb up.




Go back to that bottom hand position. Now take you top hand ( palm down/ high rear elbow) and sit it on the bat with an open index finger. You will notice what we call BHUT (bottom hand under the top). The hands are stacked more vertical in the loaded position before barrel accleration backwards


NOW COMPARE ALL OF THAT TO " THE HANDS ARE JUST HOLDNG ON TO THE BAT AND ARE IN THEIR FOR THE RIDE".

YOU DECIDE

Learn to turn the barrel aound first and you will spend considerably less time learning to turn the hips around. They must learn to turn the barrel as their swing progresses.

I see Tom's newest theory is pcr creates "spinners"..thats beautiful Tom.

I does when you kill the hands and turn one piece/ one plane. We hit 24 HRs when we stopped turning one piece/ one plane and found the bat barrel. More pop/ less effort/ better adjustment. That is my observation and experience after coaching it your way for 11 years. THink of the HRs I have missed seeing( many would have been my own sons'.... Wish I could go back and do it over. Not to late for you.........better loosen your grip on your religion

[Mark H]

SB,

As I've said before, I do see the hand action you are talking about in some MLB hitters though not universally. I don't think it's the way to start with a kid that doesn't know how to rotate, set plane or anything else very well. If it works in later, fine. As far as one piece turning aka spinning vs sequential rotation aka rotation we also agree on that goal. Always have. As far as methods to get there, I've seen Steve's results. I have not seen yours or Tom's. I think the discussion boils down to whether or not your "hand set" is the magic move you think it is and whether Tom arm action is king has a good model when he figures Mike I put the bat on the shoulder to negate arm action Epstein is his guy. I'm on here to guide someone like Sonny to better information and understanding hopefully and to give him something to use as a check against his own and others beliefs (slow motion video of the best in the world). I'm not on here to win a debate. I get embroiled in these things as a function of my stated primary goal of steering parents and kids away from bad information. This is why I was so frustrated at you two for focusing on the debate over minutiae when Sonny apparently had this huge log in his eye misunderstanding of the basic goal. I'm picturing him teaching quick hands video clip style hand throwing to any number of young kids while you two talk about hand set and universal sequences. It ain't about the debate. It's about doing the best for the most kids.

[tom.guerry]

I have been describing Nyman pcr/direction as spinhook based on Dixon series of patterns for some time now. Nothing very new about that woggy.

Mark- all the high level mlb woodbat types are doing the turn the knob thing/applying torquing forces to the handle BEFORE the shoulders turn forward. This is required for good cusp formation (essential part of producing good quickness,timing and direction). Sometimes it's more obvious - "prelaunch tht", but it's always there as "tht at launch". Once the shoulders start turning, then they use the back arm inertia/merrygoround principle as one way of quickening trajectory.

Hard to see this if you have been brainwashed not to believe in things like tht and xfactor stretch. Hard to change your position when you are wrong. You can steal the xfactor stretch concept and call it "cusp", but what are you going to call tht when you finally admit it's there ? Hook at beginning of swing or something like that ?

Teaching a kid to spin just gets them stuck more deeply in a nonhighlevel pattern.

Describing the swing as PCR and thinking a high level pattern is your destination does not make sense. It will confuse learning and interfere with reaching potential.

Do not confuse some improvement going from pull (low level pattern) to spin (midlevel pattern) as fulfilling potential IF you think the mlb swing is your destination.

[Mark H]

To be honest Tom, I stopped wading through your stuff a long time ago. Instead of words, grab a kid and a camcorder and show me.

[tom.guerry]

Always good to look carefully into those places where you meet "resistance".

[Mark H]

Like video of students or offers to meet turned down?

[wogdoggy]

Mark- all the high level mlb woodbat types are doing the turn the knob thing/applying torquing forces to the handle BEFORE the shoulders turn forward.

disconnection

[swingbuster]

Tom arm action is king has a good model when he figures Mike put the bat on the shoulder to negate arm action Epstein is his guy

Greetings Mark,

A closer examination of where Epstein put the bat is not " on the shoulder"

He placed it against the deltoid with the bat more vertical which places the thumb UP and the radius and ulna stacked vertical and of course the BHUT. What happens next is more similar to what I wrote above than the might think .

The Epstein barrel and hand position causes plane transition and the barrel rotating around the hands.

The problem occurs when the bat is in the 45 slot and the batter is trying to rotate hard enough to project the barrel into the zone

I get embroiled in these things as a function of my stated primary goal of steering parents and kids away from bad information

As do I .... which means we both think we are correct I guess

I agree with Mankin " I have never seen a kid with a good upper body move that had a bad swing." It just doesn't happen. You never see a kid playing SS that scoops a ball , loads his upper body perfectly, crow hops and just cannot make those hips work right.

Can you imagine a golf lesson that did not begin with grip, take away, putting the club in the proper slot, position of the club at the top, swing plane? Nobody on earth starts golf middle or bottom up....nobody.

[jbooth]

Mike, "I put the bat on the shoulder to negate arm action," Epstein

Epstein's drill with the bat on the OUTSIDE of the back arm (not on the top of the shoulder), is designed to prevent precisely what Sonny advocates. You ask us to help Sonny realize the error of his ways, and then you seem to disparage a drill that is designed to prevent the hitter from doing what Sonny says.

The Epstein drill serves several purposes;

1. teaches you to keep the hands with the shoulder as you rotate, and NOT push them away from you, or immediately at the ball

2. teaches you to not unhinge the wrists/hands early on, and cast the bathead (teaches you to lag the bathead and bring it around very late in the swing)

3. teaches you to keep the elbow and hands close to the body as you rotate. (in a game swing, the elbow and hands may need to move out a bit, but the goal is to keep them in)

Epstein doesn't say that there is no action from the hands and arms whatsoever, he just doesn't want you to straighten your front elbow too soon, or to use it to pull the bat, and he doesn't want you to use your wrists too soon to force the bathead around. He doesn't want the primary movement of the bat, and forces applied to it, to come from the arms/hands. He's teaching you to use the body (hip and shoulder rotation) to move the bat.

[wogdoggy]

Epstein doesn't say that their is no action from the hands and arms whatsoever, he just doesn't want you to straighten your front elbow too soon, or to use it to pull the bat, and he doesn't want you to use your wrists too soon to force the bathead around.


all good advice..especially the pull the bat part..most will teach to pull the knob,bad bad advice

[Mark H]

Epstein's drill with the bat on the OUTSIDE of the back arm (not on the top of the shoulder), is designed to prevent precisely what Sonny advocates. You ask us to help Sonny realize the error of his ways, and then you seem to disparage a drill that is designed to prevent the hitter from doing what Sonny says.

.

No I disparage the notion of a guy who thinks arm action is king promoting Epstein as his guy.

[tom.guerry]

Woggy:
"Mark- all the high level mlb woodbat types are doing the turn the knob thing/applying torquing forces to the handle BEFORE the shoulders turn forward.

disconnection"

Turning knob is PRIOR TO "connection" and an essential part of cusp formation. So is the beginning of shoulder tilt/turn.

You don't connect until the cusp reverses at end of Drop and tilt. About at the "lag" position. About when bathead gets out of arc of handpath.

Cusp has crucial directional aspects as well as load/unload.

[ssarge]

Can you imagine a golf lesson that did not begin with grip, take away, putting the club in the proper slot, position of the club at the top, swing plane? Nobody on earth starts golf middle or bottom up....nobody.

OK Donny, fair point.

But weighing it against the posts to which you are responding, and the sequence of this thread leads me to ask:

Where is Epstein's second lesson?

Tom?

Or even the acknowledgement that there should BE a second lesson, and a description of what is in it?

Donny, you at least try the things you espouse with real hitters, in an effort to gain validation. Which I appreciate. While I might not share the precepts or the approach, at least you are using field-based trials.

My belief is that virtually NO ONE here - or anywhere else on the internet - has the faintest interest in disecting the swing to the level of Tom's regular engagement. What they do have an interest in is learning to hit effectively at the high school and (hopefully) college level. Wogging on about the "MLB pattern" - which is found in about 10% of college hitters and maybe a quarter of Minor League Pro ball - is just mind-numbing. Not that it isn't of value - clearly it is. But I believe that to gain ANY credibility, you need to quit talking about it, and start BUILDING it in ONE hitter, someplace.

Seriously, Tom, who are you talking to? Do you have ANY sense of the demographics of these boards? Since I am pretty certain that there is not an MLB hitting coach who would have the faintest idea what you are talking about - and I KNOW there is no one fitting the demographics of this board who does - I reiterate: WHO are you talking to?


Tom, if you seriously believe that Epstein's approach - which offers absolutely NO IDEAS what to do after the 1-2-3 drill and disconnection (fence) drill - will build an elite hitter, then I am ABSOLUTELY certain that you have never tried to implement it.

Even if it is a good foundation - a point I DON'T concede - so what? NO one could possibly know where to go from there.

Illuminate us.

What's the fourth drill? The one that gets the weight off the back foot, does ANYTHING with the upper body, and restores the connection lost in the fence drill?

Scott

[ssarge]

There is a reason why ALL that play at a high level insist the hands are very important yet the internet gurus claim the opposite. Unfortunately, there is a meaningful explanation for this important role of the hands that has been rejected by your leadership.

Let's be fair.

This is a misstatement of what is actually claimed.

The typical claim is that hand STRENGTH - basically grip strength - is important. And that "hand speed" - whatever the hell that could possibly mean in a high-level swing - is important. (A concept implied in the title of this thread)

And I don't believe that you believe that, even as your thinking continues to evolve. Although, perhaps I don't fully understand what you now believe.

Is it now your position that hand movement has transcended the importance of middle-based rotation as the foundation of the swing?

Or do you CONTINUE to believe that a foundation must first be taught, that there is a developmental process for a young hitter, and that absent that foundation, a lot of the subtlety of the swing is putting lipstick on a pig?

And I think you know me well enough to know that I am NOT being argumentative - I am really asking.

Best,

Scott

[ssarge]

You don't connect until the cusp reverses at end of Drop and tilt. About at the "lag" position. About when bathead gets out of arc of handpath.

I don't believe this is an accurate statement, even when weighed against your own predicate statements.

How are you defining "connection?"

In standard English, it would obviously convey the notion that everything is hooked together, and maintains that congruity through a proper sequence.

You of ALL people are concerned with the proper sequence. In what sense is the formation of the cusp/load/unload/x-stretch/monarchy of arm action not "connected?"

Scott

[JJA]

Can you imagine a golf lesson that did not begin with grip, take away, putting the club in the proper slot, position of the club at the top, swing plane? Nobody on earth starts golf middle or bottom up....nobody.


Really? Here is a quote from Ben Hogan, taken from his book, Power Golf:

"The first movement in the downswing is the turning of the left hip to the left. Forget about your arms, hands, shoulders and club at that moment and start the hips turning, led by the left hip."

-JJA

[dougmac]

JJA, That quote is about the start of the downswing.......what does Hogan say about the setup, grip and start of the swing going back. :)

[jbooth]

and restores the connection lost in the fence drill?

Scott

If one understands the primary purpose of the fence drill, it is a valuable drill. I think Epstein gets the hitter too close to the fence and forces too much of an artificial movement at the finish of the swing, but the primary purpose of the drill is to get the hitter to learn to start the swing without casting the bathead, without pushing the hands away from the shoulder toward the fence, or pushing the bat at the ball. It is teaching the student to get from stance position to THIS position;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds_approach1.jpg

The bat is parallel with an imaginary fence and his hands are still back at his armpit, and the back elbow is tucked down, and his hands are moving around, close to his body. That is the purpose of the drill.

I find it works better if you get the batter a little farther away from the fence than Epstein puts them, and mostly do the drill in slow motion. I don't have them take full speed swings. I just want them to feel the proper position that all the upper body parts need to be in, as the bat approaches the ball.

It teaches "hands back, lag the bathead, and maintain the forearm to bat angle."

[JJA]

Yeah, yeah, of course you're right. On the other hand, even for one who advocates a running start in the baseball swing, you don't exactly call it a backswing, do you? :)

I think you understood my point even if others may not. The downswing is analogous to the baseball swing starting from the launching position. From that position, Hogan thought of starting the swing with the hips, not the hands. That's all I was getting at.

[LClifton]

In standard English, it would obviously convey the notion that everything is hooked together, and maintains that congruity through a proper sequence.
In standard English vs. hitting language the terms
("tilt", "posture", "plane", "flail", "hook", "whip", "lag", "drag", and even "angular momentum") have similar conveyance to their English definitions, yes....Obvious conveyance, no.

Objectivity is another interesting one.

[dougmac]

Yeah, yeah, of course you're right. On the other hand, even for one who advocates a running start in the baseball swing, you don't exactly call it a backswing, do you? :)

I think you understood my point even if others may not. The downswing is analogous to the baseball swing starting from the launching position. From that position, Hogan thought of starting the swing with the hips, not the hands. That's all I was getting at.

I agree with Mr Hogan about the start of the downswing. :)

The running start is what I would call the start of the swing, for those that use the running start.

[jojab]

Regarding the Fence Drill, rather than do it the Epstein way which forces a poor finish, angle the hitter along the fence so that at the start of the swing there is little space between the hitter and the fence but at the end of the swing the fence is furtherest away. This will help the student understand how to stop casting (stay connected) at the start of the swing. And, if they don't think they are doing it, this is a quick way to show them that they are.

Here is an overhead of what I mean.

[Jake Patterson]

Tom, who are you talking to? Do you have ANY sense of the demographics of these boards? Since I am pretty certain that there is not an MLB hitting coach who would have the faintest idea what you are talking about - and I KNOW there is no one fitting the demographics of this board who does - I reiterate: WHO are you talking to?
Scott

Scott and all,
I conducted a poll some time ago. Here were the results.

View Poll Results: How many years have you coached??
None 12 23.08%
0-5 Years 10 19.23%
5-10 Years 13 25.00%
10-15 Years 6 11.54%
15-20 Years 4 7.69%
20+ Years 7 13.46%

A majority were youth coaches. Some HS and a few college. Here's the link
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=47190

[swingbuster]

"The first movement in the downswing is the turning of the left hip to the left. Forget about your arms, hands, shoulders and club at that moment and start the hips turning, led by the left hip."

Thanks Mr Hogan and I see you said " At that moment" .

I totally agree. BUT your downswing will mean nothing if the club is not in the slot.

You went to Chapter 5 or beyond to find that quote. My post stated how golf is taught from the beginning and it is not the downswing.

I respectfully defend my statement......nobody teaches golf until the upper body move is taught..........nobody.

[jojab]

I respectfully defend my statement......nobody teaches golf until the upper body move is taught..........nobody.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, was questioning they way you go about teaching kids to swing a golf club, Swingbuster. :)

[swingbuster]

Regarding the Fence Drill, rather than do it the Epstein way which forces a poor finish, angle the hitter along the fence so that at the start of the swing there is little space between the hitter and the fence but at the end of the swing the fence is furtherest away

Totally agree ...good observation and imagery.

[tom.guerry]

If you want to teach the high level pattern, teach the high level pattern, not something somewhere else on the road.

The pattern is built into human brains waiting to be developed/realized when there is adequate maturity and the right challenge. Adequate maturity is very young. Whatever age you start seeing kids throw at the high level buggywhip pattern. Kids can do this young, as early as age 5 or 6. Ask Wolforth how young his boy was when throwing high level.

There were several high level swings in LLWS past few years, probably more in the old days du to more trial and error and emulation on the playgorund at a young age then - Legendary Lloyd Mclendon (?spelling) clips from LLWS in 70's were interesting.

Percentage of power throwers/power swingers has gone way down with less play/practice time and overcoaching in recent decades.

[Mark H]

Great. Show us how you teach it.

[Jake Patterson]

Ask Wolforth how young his boy was when throwing high level.

The problem is few of us are HIGH LEVEL coaches. We teach youth ball, MS and HS. When we confuse those who are special to the average player we lose sight of the fact that 98% of the kids we coach do not have what Wolforth's son has. Therefore we need to make ad hoc adjustments to the "perfect" swing in order to get results. While striving for perfection we need to understand that in an endevor like baseball few, very, very few, will achieve it.

Most of the kids I coach end their career in HS

[dougmac]

If you want to teach the high level pattern, teach the high level pattern, not something somewhere else on the road.

The pattern is built into human brains waiting to be developed/realized when there is adequate maturity and the right challenge. Adequate maturity is very young. Whatever age you start seeing kids throw at the high level buggywhip pattern. Kids can do this young, as early as age 5 or 6. Ask Wolforth how young his boy was when throwing high level.

There were several high level swings in LLWS past few years, probably more in the old days du to more trial and error and emulation on the playgorund at a young age then - Legendary Lloyd Mclendon (?spelling) clips from LLWS in 70's were interesting.

Percentage of power throwers/power swingers has gone way down with less play/practice time and overcoaching in recent decades.


Any clips of Wolforth's son? How old is he? How high a level is he at?

[tom.guerry]

he's probably about 8 or so now

he emulates a lot of good throwers.

his dad knows enough not to screw him up.

Maybe someone can report from the Dec bootcamp this year.

Anyone seen kids in this range with the same high level pattern as when adult ?

I have certainly seen some in 3rd grade. Occasionally younger.

[ssarge]

Percentage of power throwers/power swingers has gone way down with less play/practice time and overcoaching in recent decades.

Percentage of power hitters in the female game is WAY up.

Scott

[tom.guerry]

power hitting is up, but is potential being fully realized ?

or are they just going from pull to spin to high level, but still lacking "THT" ?

or are the PCR approaches locking them into spin and making them better but not realizing potential ?

Kids can have the high level ability early. In the case of girls, it is obvious in golf. How young was Michele Wie when whe had the basic pattern learned ?

Next most common is windmill pitching. I have seen high level pattern in 6 yo playing 10u.

Next, but getting way too uncommon is girls in high level throw pattern. here is an example of a kid who got it at a young age, certainly when I first saw her trying out for 10U (norcal Haze) in 1996:

http://www.arizonaathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=8387&SPID=528&DB_OEM_ID=1600&ATCLID=189676&Q_SEASON=2006

high level swing is most rare becasue coaching is SO bad and trial and error is so limited (age started and time put in with good role models emulated.)

It is not just the rare gifted kid that has this potential.

PCR is selling them short.

[Jake Patterson]

Percentage of power throwers/power swingers has gone way down with less play/practice time and overcoaching in recent decades.


Tom any supporting information on this?

[tom.guerry]

best evidence I have seen is DMAC's opinion.
But then, I'm not a scientist.

[Mark H]

PCR is selling them short.

Point of order, Tom hasn't seen what Steve teaches. He's had invitations. Make your own judgements accordingly.

[tom.guerry]

the old "you haven't seen it" should make revisionism easier I guess.

What is different about the Englishbey approach vs Nyman ?

Or is that proprietary ?

[Mark H]

I expect he would have explained whatever questions you had if you had met him in person as offered. In any case, for those who have difficulty following your prose, how about showing us what and how you teach using a kid and a camcorder?

[Jake Patterson]

Kids can have the high level ability early. In the case of girls, it is obvious in golf. How young was Michele Wie when whe had the basic pattern learned ?

Next most common is windmill pitching. I have seen high level pattern in 6 yo playing 10u.

Next, but getting way too uncommon is girls in high level throw pattern. here is an example of a kid who got it at a young age, certainly when I first saw her trying out for 10U (norcal Haze) in 1996

Tom, are you suggesting that the average youth player is ready for high level training or posesses "high level ability" at the ages listed above?

[tom.guerry]

I'm saying the body is ready to learn a high level mechanical pattern as early as age 5 or so in some, certainly by age 12 in most.

I'm not sure what is meant by "high level training".

The high level pattern is a natural thing given the right match of student and structuring of task.

Don't make it unnatural.

The golf analogy is a good one.

There are good coaches and a supportive culture in golf with lots of kids getting lots of hours in with good feedback and instruction from an early age (Tiger's dad sat him in the high chair and forced him to watch dad take swings before tiger could walk - that would indeed be too early to perform the skill at a high level).

Kids can have the same fudamental swing at age 5 as they do as an adult, both high level in pattern.

[Mark H]

Great. Grab a camcorder and show us how you teach it.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm saying the body is ready to learn a high level mechanical pattern as early as age 5 or so in some, certainly by age 12 in most.
I feel that because of genetics, interest and learning environments, young athletes achieve at varying rates and levels.
I'm not sure what is meant by "high level training".
The high level pattern is a natural thing given the right match of student and structuring of task.
Don't make it unnatural.
The golf analogy is a good one.

Here's my nephew at 3 1/2 y/o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdQ1TgzUlzI

Brandon is where he is becasue he has some ability, my father works with him everyday and - most important- he can't get enough of the game. He has no problem going to the club and hitting 200 balls. Few kids have that desire or focus.

I asked the original question because I feel this site and others - resonates with discussion of high level everything -providing little help to the average coach who coaches the average player. While the average child may possess high level ability early, other factors like desire and training environment must be added to the equation.
Thoughts??

[JJA]

Jake,

I've coached lots of little leaguers and FPers over the past 7 years, of widely varying ability. Based on my experience, your original supposition is correct, different kids learn skills at wildly different ages.

Many fathers train the heck out of kids early. Yes, I've seen some pretty darn good hitting and pitching mechanics out of 9 year olds, usually from parents who really push the kids. It's great and all, but then they hit the teens and then nature takes over. I've seen an awful lot of stars at 9 who can't play anymore at 14 because they're too little. Many of these 9 year old stars burn out or rebel against dad because of all the pressure put on them when they were younger. On the other hand, some of the awkward kids at 10 become monsters at 14. It all depends on the child.

After seeing an awful lot of kids both ways, I'm convinced that the ages 5-10 should simply be fun ages where they can learn to love the game. Sure, give them a few little things to work on while they're young (grip, setup, etc.), but there is actually plenty of time to teach "high level mechanics". There is no reason that a child can't learn "high level mechanics" in one year if they have sufficient work ethic and good coaching. 11-14 are great ages to do this. By this time, they should love the game and not mind putting in the 100 swings a day, 300+ days a year that they will need if they want to become really good. Before that, I'm just not a fan of it. Sure, there are some exceptions out there (like your nephew), but they're few and far between. The game becomes a grind before they have learned to love it, and that accounts for an awful lot of kids who quit the game.

Let kids be kids, and when they hit double digits, then you can think about really getting serious with them. You asked for my opinion, and that's it.

-JJA

[tom.guerry]

Jake-

Your nephew is well into the midlevel spin pattern and on the way to the high level as he matures a little more. It will come as he learns better lower body support. Now when he takes the huge backswing his legs can't support him and he can't get off the backside/stay ahead/pull.

These are hard things to describe. Look at the golf channel for SAM SNEAD. SWING OF A LIFETIME. He describes the high level as swinging from the feet up (but he describes the feel in terms of hands/arms driving the swing,pulling down from top and then hitting with the back arm/hand).

When the back knee straightens out on the backswing and you sway, then you cant shift/get off the back side soon/strongly enough, BUT everything else is fine and the rest comes when the strength and wiring happen.

Love the walkup and rhythmic preswing/forward press/ great rotation of head and shoulderson backswing/great lead arm,etc.

I'll bet by age 6 the lower body kicks in at latest on current trajctory if he stays intertested.

[ssarge]

These are hard things to describe. Look at the golf channel for SAM SNEAD. SWING OF A LIFETIME. He describes the high level as swinging from the feet up (but he describes the feel in terms of hands/arms driving the swing,pulling down from top and then hitting with the back arm/hand).

So the guy who won 83 PGA tournaments - all time best, at least for another 5 years (LOL) - says that the "feel" of what the hands do is different than the actuality.

Imagine that.


Is "arm action king" when the feeling is different than the actuality?

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

What is different about the Englishbey approach vs Nyman ?

Much.

Field tested and proven across thousands of hitters, and based on a developmental progression implemented by a sports trainer. . .

vs.

a very talented analyst and observer.


You should recognize the second category from within, Tom.

And you should know - but apparently don't (or just don't care to admit) - that it is WAY different than the first category.


Scott

[swingbuster]

Field tested and proven across thousands of hitters, and based on a developmental progression implemented by a sports trainer.

Steve is a hard worker and a good communicator and motivationed instructor.

IMO He could flip his protocal, teach upper body mechanics first and then hips and prove it works too across thousands of hitters too.


He has a certain progression that makes sense for him and a marketable " theme". I expect he will stay with what he likes to use.

Since very little about the swing is intuitive , thousands of hitters across the nation can be made much better by several other methods as well.

[tom.guerry]

sarge-

I can't explain why Steve following Nyman was unable to carryover the right principles from throwing to hitting, but that is the case.

Hands have to be in driver's seat for swinging. Throwing hand has to get consistent release point for throwing. Arm action is king in enabling this just as Nyman explains for throwing.

As Nyman also explains, there is top down control of a bottom up motion. That is the EXACT point Snead was making. Also comparing the windup of the swing to pitching. It is very valuable to understand how this same action does and does not apply to the baseball swing.

The motion is produces by the synched limbs on either side (mapping of arm action to leg action diagonally/contralaterally) controlling cusp formation. Control does NOT happen "middle out".

I know Nyman doesn't understand how to swing, but Steve can swing.

So Does Steve not understand what he is actually doing ?

Or does Steve not understand throwing mechanics well ?

Or both ?

Where does Steve now differ from his ex-guru ?

Do we have to pay to find out ?

Not me.

[JJA]

Tom,

Do we have to pay to find out ?

Not me.
You don't have to pay to find out. All you have to do is to accept Steve's gracious offer to meet him on the field, an offer that he has made numerous times. You can ask him all the questions you want, come back and post for all the world to hear your "expert" opinion on what Steve teaches. What are you afraid of?

-JJA

[Mark H]

Or perhaps Tom could just skip that step, grab a camcorder, train a kid and show us how he does it?

[tom.guerry]

Meet steve and put up clips are just off topic. this is about info in written form with video support you can use for your own trial and error that is either good or bad.

When the posse see bad info they tear into it with some specifics. when there is nothing to say, it means they know they are wrong and they go off topic/off point/no specifics.

PCR is NOT a high level swing. It's a spin.

In PCR/SETPRO type context, Dixon was good at noticing patterns of movement and carryover from throwing to hitting.

He described momentum creation and transfer adequately.

He has NO clue about how momentum gets directed.

Nyman figured out how arm action was king and how scaps work in throw, but has no clue how the scaps/arms are used in the high level swing.

Nor is he clear about arm action details in throwing.

Hodge is clear about arm action details in high level throwing.

Mankin is clear about underlying torque and chp swing model and in vs out adjustment.

Epstein has most practical program which works back from how each swing is about the adjustment so that his methodology adds the missing middle phase that Dixon identified as the distinction between spin and whip, but in Epstein's case he includes, torque as foundation of swing;how to create and transfer momentum; AND how to direct momentum ("match plane"), especially for up/down adjustment permitting a good hitting approach of getting a good pitch to hit.

That is one concrete path through the various schools that describes the high level swing adeqautely. There are others - Lau, Slaught, etc. NOT NYMAN PCR.

The high level swing REQUIRES emphasis on BOTH momentum transfer AND direction to get BOTH max quickness and most efficent contact for minimal timing error.

PCR/SPIN is UNABLE to optimize any of these as they must all get better together as the NECESSARY and NATURAL human motor solution that has EVOLVED (or hyperevolved) in MLB. The pattern is analyzed/reverse engineered from what the best have already mastered. It is NOT engineered from the ground up.

PCR fights mother nature and makes trial and error learning MORE difficult by ingraining the wrong pattern, wrong weight shift, wrong upper/lower body sequence and synch.

You can't fight mother nature.

Do NOT teach spin first, then try to progress to high level whip.

KEEP teaching whip.

AGAIN, Epstein is a good example. He gets the upper and lower body well synched with bat on deltoid and a good basic sequence compatible with high level which then makes trial and error more likely to succeed/optimize when you go hands free.

PCR messes up the lower body and upper lower synch and sequence of both which makes trial and error VERY difficult when you try to subsequently figure out how to turn the knob.

Revisionism is underway, let's see how it presents itself.

[ssarge]

I can't explain why Steve following Nyman was unable to carryover the right principles from throwing to hitting, but that is the case.

Hands have to be in driver's seat for swinging. Throwing hand has to get consistent release point for throwing. Arm action is king in enabling this just as Nyman explains for throwing.

As Nyman also explains, there is top down control of a bottom up motion. That is the EXACT point Snead was making. Also comparing the windup of the swing to pitching. It is very valuable to understand how this same action does and does not apply to the baseball swing.

The motion is produces by the synched limbs on either side (mapping of arm action to leg action diagonally/contralaterally) controlling cusp formation. Control does NOT happen "middle out".

I know Nyman doesn't understand how to swing, but Steve can swing.

So Does Steve not understand what he is actually doing ?

Or does Steve not understand throwing mechanics well ?

Or both ?

Where does Steve now differ from his ex-guru ?

Do we have to pay to find out ?

Not me.


Yeah, Tom we get it. In the entire universe of knowledge available about hitting, there is ONE SET of training curriculm which you haven't seen.

And interestingly, it is the ONLY ONE you regularly criticize. Everything else just gets blended into the Universal Hitting Theory. You believe that everybody is explaining the same thing with a different approach. EXCEPT Englishbey.

You've backed yourself into a corner. Your hatred (understandable) of Nyman caused you to reject consistent sincere offers to evaluate (for free) Steve's materials. And now you are piegon-holed.

How about sacking up and admitting that you need to understand what you are criticizing?


Tom, I'm dead serious here.

Maybe you could review for us again the credentials that lend credibility to your critique of the developmental process approach practiced by a sports trainer? Whose approach, BTW, you HAVEN'T SEEN.

Sports trainer being a qualification VERY few hitting instructors have.

And possessed by even fewer hitting instructors who have actually played at a relatively high level. And whose own swing even YOU admit is "high level."

And the subset of instructors who have all of the above attributes, plus have field tested the approach on THOUSANDS of hitters is quite small.


You make inuendos about how Steve doesn't "get it," and doesn't have the correct developmental approach.

I think that is crap, because you yurself don't have ANY idea how to build a hitter.

You are skilled at evaluating hitters. You have never once demonstrated - despite HUNDREDS of requests from dozens of people - that you have any idea how to build one. So enough already. You don't have credibility in this area.

May others may not either, including me. But most of us know our limitations. You are either blithely unaware of yours, or just don't care.

Go put the Heisenberg U.P. into affect. Actually observe a hitter trying to learn, and see if you can change the outcome.

Scott


PS:

Control does NOT happen "middle out".

Momentum development and ultimately power DO. And without those, nothing else really matters. Not that all aspects of the swing aren't important. It's just that some things are SEMINAL and FOUNDATIONAL. This is why it is important to have a developmental progression. A point I know that you grasp in the abstract, but again, don't fully appreciate, because you're not involved in implementing one with young hitters.

[ssarge]

Meet steve and put up clips are just off topic. this is about info in written form with video support you can use for your own trial and error that is either good or bad.

The question is how one can possibly evaluate this without working with a hitter?

Anyway, it is the topic, because the challenge that has been issued to you is for demonstration of credibility.


Regardless, continuing in the discussion of specifics you seem to be demanding, what is it that you perceive Englishbey teaches which is inconsistent w/ the high-level swing?

I don't think you know what he teaches, what is the progression for development, or have any other context shaping your criticism.

But maybe I am wrong. Give us some specific examples of what Steve has written or demonstrated which is inconsistent with developing - over time - a high level swing. And if you really want to put me and my ilk in our place - and I know that you do - maybe you can show us some of the high level swings underway over at Epstein's site. Start with using the video Epstein HIMSELF has selected - from 50,000 customers - to illustrate the principles in which he believes. Which I believe are different than the principles which you SAY he believes. I do respect Epstein for illustrating those principles, BTW, although I don't necessarily share his conclusions.


Get the quotes right, because you're going to get challenged on it. But provide some examples. Failure to do so means YOU are guilty of revisionism.

This could be interesting, you might even get Steve's attention on this one. Something you obviously crave.

[ssarge]

PCR fights mother nature and makes trial and error learning MORE difficult by ingraining the wrong pattern, wrong weight shift, wrong upper/lower body sequence and synch.

I think that in retrospect, Steve believes most of these things were wrong for him WHEN he was playing AAA ball. Which is why he topped out there, despite being the 9th player drafted in 1972.

And now, as you yourself indicate, he has them right in his own swing.

He does "eat his own dog food," and used the developmental approach he now implements in others.

I don't think this is dichotomy. I conclude the exact opposite of you - that he was able to overcome a LIFETIME of sub-optimal swings through the approach he now advocates.


Also, what is your source / personal qualifications to analyze the patterns most conforming to "Mother Nature?" Serious question.

[Mark H]

Complete and to the point. Exactly what I meant by, grab a camcorder and show us Tom.

[tom.guerry]

OK.

Let's see.

That was 3 sarge posts and 1 Mark post and NO content.

[jojab]

Let's see.

That was 3 sarge posts and 1 Mark post and NO content.


Must be Tom's way of saying that he has no interest in actually showing us what he teaches young hitters or learning about what Steve teaches. No, he is here to bash Paul Nyman and anyone that has any ties to Nyman.

[JJA]

Tom,

That's the best you can do? Scott and Mark give you well thought out arguments and you don't have any comment on them at all?

There is no way you can argue that the basic PCR philosophy of trying to essentially emulate Bonds is not a viable teaching goal. As you very well know, Bonds sits in a very different category than most sluggers. His swing is more "rotational" than most, much more so than A-Rod, say. This just isn't my opinion, because as you well know, Lau says the same thing in his book. As Lau definitively states, Bonds only satisfies some of Lau's Laws. He isn't a Lau hitter.

That's why I think the PCR goal is so interesting. It's an attempt to emulate Bonds, who all the PCR guys say have the most efficient mechanics. No one - not Lau, Hudgens, certainly not Epstein - are attempting to emulate Bonds, but the PCR guys are.

You may not like Bonds' swing, but emulating a guy who has had such tremendous success cannot be a bad thing in itself. Bonds is NOT a spinner. Now, you might question the PCR teaching methods that will create a Bonds swing. That's legitimate. However, by your own admission, you do not know what Steve E teaches, and since you do not own Nyman's materials either, I argue you don't know what he teaches either.

That's why I don't know why you're so afraid. Take Steve up on his offer. If you're nice to him, he'll probably let you on his web site. Take a look at the swings on Steve's web site. If the video doesn't match up to the best players in the world, if most all of his students are spinners like most Epstein students are back foot hitters, that's fair game and feel free to criticize him like I do with Epstein.

But to dismiss the teaching goal out of hand doesn't make any sense. 95% of the people in the world would want to have the swing of Barry Bonds. And to criticize teaching methods of which you have no direct knowledge is simply mean spirited and a transparent attempt to denigrate Nyman because of his previous treatment of you.

-JJA

[tom.guerry]

JJA-

I think emulating Bonds is great.
This is NOT what PCR does.
PCR is a flawed inadequate description.
That is the problem with teaching PCR and saying emulate the high level swing.
They are not the same.
You have to learn to see and feel it. "IT" being the high level swing.

A nonscientific but better than PCR description of Bonds is top hand,front shoulder,weight shift.

See this week in baseball 5/29/2004.

Figure out what Barry means there and you will have a high level model, not PCR.

[JJA]

Tom,

Well I'm glad you agree that PCR's goal is a good one. That is a good start. It appears that you accept my premise that Bonds' swing is more rotational than a swing like A-Rod's. That is also a very important admission.

Now, this is very, very important. Tell me exactly what Steve E teaches that prevents his students from looking like Barry Bonds. Are his drills flawed? If so, which ones?

-JJA

[swingbuster]

Now, this is very, very important. Tell me exactly what Steve E teaches that prevents his students from looking like Barry Bonds. Are his drills flawed? If so, which ones?


JJA,

Most PCR players I have seen are one planers. THeir bats start in the 45 slot. THey shift turn and rotate.

I do not have as much luck getting the barrel into the zone doing this. I usually get a front shoulder pull thing going or a top hand drag.

making the body move the hands is hard for me personally and my son never got it either.

He could hold the rear elbow around the corner like Garciaparra ans still come out top hand dominant.

What I do not see the PCRers doing is loading the hands and cocking the hips in a way that I can make work.....others can....

I like the lead forearm to turn thumb up while loading so that when it turns thumb flat that the barrel will get a running start. I like a two plane swing basically. It sets up forearm rotation of the barrel around the hands as the swing begins. This in itself creates some shoulder resistance and seems to help my batters find the barrel and have a better sense of it and hitting away pitches oppo.

I would rather set up shoulder resistance with forearm priming and the barrel rotation around the hand because it yields better segmentation and bat tip pop for me

[Mark H]

PCR does this PCR does that. How did Steve get stuck with PCR? Whatever. You really need to spend a couple of hours on a field with Steve. Would be good for you and if you are going to discuss what Steve teaches and believes, it would make discussion profitable. The flip side of that being of course that discussing what he teaches without spending some time with him, or at least buying the dvd's is...not profitable.

[JJA]

SB,

I really like your honesty that you couldn't make PCR work. That's an honest, legitimate answer. The big question of course is whether someone else, someone who has worked with many students using these methods (i.e., Steve or Paul) could make it work. Can you have PCRW without being a spinner? I think it's obvious that the answer is yes. The key is the details required to implement PCRW.

Tom has dismissed PCR out of hand as having no chance of achieving a high level swing. I think few of us would argue that P (posture), C (connection), R (rotation), and W (whip) are not important in high level swings. Given this, it then boils down to the details. Are the teaching methods and drills that Steve and Paul use good enough to teach the Bonds swing? There is only one way of answering that, and that's to dissect the drills being used, as well as the students attempting these drills through video. If you haven't seen them - and by Tom's own admissions he hasn't - then you can't possibly comment intelligently about the viability of the PCRW method.

-JJA

[swingbuster]

Mark..


You are probably the longest running poster that I know about.

When exactly did the W get added to the PCR that can be footnoted.

I know I jokingly said it should be PCR -Whip a while back. I had never seen it before that post on an internet site. Am I badly mistaken

then you can't possibly comment intelligently about the viability of the PCRW method.

probabaly not....But right now I am not looking for a new method but I wish him continued success with his.

[JJA]

SB,

Nyman in his material refers to his method as PCRW, such as on his Hitting for Numbies CD. I'm not trying to be a historian, but I think PCR got coined on this board in reference to what the "posse" was teaching. Tom tends to group Steve E and Nyman together, so that's why I used the term PCRW. It was not an attempt to delineate PCR from PCRW.

By the way, the "you" in the quote wasn't in reference to you, it was to Tom. Sorry if it sounded like I was referring to you. I wasn't.

Finally, I think most of us are very open minded about different approaches to teaching hitting. If you're getting great success with BHUT, more power to you. I'm definitely interested if you are producing the next Manny Ramirez, no matter how you got there. On the other hand, video is really the key to convincing people. Simply show a before swing and after swing to show the efficacy of the teaching method, and that will shut everyone up. Actually, it will elicit a sea of questions from people eager to learn how to do the same for their students. The internet is just a really difficult way of conveying information on how to teach hitting, so that's why I find video so much more informative than paragraphs of text.

-JJA

[ssarge]

Most PCR players I have seen are one planers. Their bats start in the 45 slot. THey shift turn and rotate.

I do not have as much luck getting the barrel into the zone doing this. I usually get a front shoulder pull thing going or a top hand drag.

Interesting, Donny.

I say that because just yesterday, Steve posted a 20 minute instructional video on his site - apparently the first of an eight part series - on essentially this subject.

Which makes the criticism Tom is leveling even more laughable. In trying to piegon-hole Steve as "merely a Nyman clone," he is making a real error in judgment. There is MUCH more.

Regards,

Scott

[Mark H]

Mark..


You are probably the longest running poster that I know about.

When exactly did the W get added to the PCR that can be footnoted.

I know I jokingly said it should be PCR -Whip a while back. I had never seen it before that post on an internet site. Am I badly mistaken



probabaly not....But right now I am not looking for a new method but I wish him continued success with his.

The concept of getting off the merry go round goes way back. I've heard Nyman and Steve both discuss it at length in one form or another. Who came up with the lingo is something you would have to ask someone who remembers everything like Steve. Having said that, I don't think hand set, running starts, whip, getting off the merry go round etc, while all well and good, is the place to start with a kid who looks like this. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=16&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[JJA]

Yep, Mark, you're right. Out of 13 girls on a team, that girl looks like about 9 of them at the beginning of the year. And I've seen an awful lot of swings worse than that one.

[swingbuster]

The concept of getting off the merry go round goes way back. I've heard Nyman and Steve both discuss it at length in one form or another. Who came up with the lingo is something you would have to ask someone who remembers everything like Steve. Having said that, I don't think hand set, running starts, whip, getting off the merry go round etc, while all well and good, is the place to start with a kid who looks like this. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/...=0&w=4&s=0&z=9


Mark ..what a great clip to use for the thread. Please allow me....

From Ziggy site....the description of whats happening...

Example of significant hip slide and bat drag problems. Hip slide is when the hips continue translation (sliding forward) after rotation has begun (approx frames 13-17). Bat drag occurs in frames 9-14 - see the rear arm's elbow getting ahead of the rear arm hand.

A better description that leads to a solid solution would be.....

[B]Hip slide and bat drag occurs in this clip because the upper body never got and stayed in the hitting position until the hip rotation started.



Does anybody say that we can stop her hips from sliding with that upper body position/ location at heel drop ? Her shift/ rotate is fine....her upper body came down with the lower during the shift.



Also.... This girl gets to front foot plant with the hands almost flat. THere is no resistance or loading of her forearm flexors and no resistance at the shoulder level. Nothing stayed back in her upper body.

THere are three ways to keep the shoulder back

1. counter rotate...too slow recovering

2. scap load in the 45 plane.....which we cannot seem to teach because the hands are dead in the load

3. cock the hands BHUT at the arm pit ( which is the hands modulating version of scap loading)

If you get to foot plant with the barrel loaded properly the lead forearm arm radius/ ulna will be vertical ( thumb up) , the barrel will be higher and maintained higher until front foot firming. THe drop/tilt/ rotate linkage will have something to pull against as the hands turn back on plane( thumb flat) rotating the barrel at roughly the same time.


It can be this simple as...lead arm thumb up as the weight is carried in the stride. Thumb flattening at foot plant. THe wrist angles must be correct to do this and optimize this so that it fits the tilted box. THe arms / elbow slave to the hands and barrel position in my model during loading

I have had good luck turning the thumb up as the hips coil and linking these loads neurologically. Getting the hip to coil can be hell and they seems to work( coil) off a negative BHUT hands cue best in some kids. You get feel that nothing has to go back in the upper body but you get loaded by a simple , repeatable, teachable move where they can begin by thinking about only one thing. They are born to think hands so we let them and show them how the hands load

The reactive part of the swing is hard to teach and so is the loading part if it is complicated. Sure you will have to build on to the load move but I see that making the hands do something in the load is essential. You might not be hitting with dead hands by design but your loading with dead hands as I see it.

MOST DEAD HANDS LOADING PLAYERS ALSO HAVE NOT HIP COIL...THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING . MAYBE THERE IS A LINK BETEEN HIPS AND HANDS


It is my opinion that Nyman wrote PCR-WHIP after I posted that phrase before he wrote Numbies. I touted the Yeager work on segmented whip and added it to PCR joking you guys that it( PCR) was missing something. Nyman apparently agreed and marketed it. I would bet good money on that and if I had the time and inclination I could find the post.


JJA...there is more subtle forearm loading...outward inclination of the lead arm thumb / wrist loading action to prime the forearm flexors in Manny and all good hitters than meets the eye based on barrel location IMHO. BHUT drills are a great teaching tool to find the barrel even if you move back toward the 45 slot.

[Mark H]

You haven't read Dixon either have you? If you did, read it again.

[swingbuster]

I spent the $25.

Did the little girl have a lower body problem primarily or did she fail to keep the upper body back as her hips opened on the hip slide demo?

You will believe one or the other...which is it? Simple question


I gave a clear opinion

[b]Hip slide and bat drag occurs in this clip because the upper body never got and stayed in the hitting position until the hip rotation started.


Post her swing by Ziggy's Cabrera and compare their upper and lower body moves. Her elbow starts down frame for frame as she starts her stride foot forward. Carbera's rear elbow starts back as he starts his stride. THeir hip moves are more similar (except less the coil which goes with no hand cocking)

. This description of hip slide here is pitifully flawed and you know it. HIP SLIDE IS RARELY A PRIMARY PROBLEM....it happens secondary to to a dysfunctional upper body. Her problem starts in the upper body at frame ONE. It is moving in the wrong direction. Her hip move is fine if that is fixed. IT would stop her over stride too.

If that little girls( and all those that are doing the same thing ) are told to work harder on hip turn and somebody doesn't tell her her how to keep her hands back then they will struggle. I thought you were leading parents to better info

Here are the comps....you decide

Cabera rear elbow moving back during stride ...Her elbow is coming down frame for frame during stride and hip rotation for SIXTEEN STRAIGHT FRAMES

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=16&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=29&n=25&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

BHUT is a great loading mechanism to teach players how to keep their upper body back.... use it....or send HER Dixons book....maybe she will figure it all out from that...

TOP DOWN CONTROL OF THE LOWER BODY EXIST

[wogdoggy]

typical tom..now pcr produces the "spin"...funny but tom didnt even hear about dixon till the pcr's brought it up.Tom you teach a golf swing which takes forever to get to the strike zone.top hand torque and circular bat path..all crap draw mankins circle created with his PATHFINDER bat and show me where he makes contact with an inside pitch and can keep it fair

.


TOP DOWN CONTROL OF THE LOWER BODY EXIST

look at the rose overhead show me if the top starts the swing or the bottom

[wogdoggy]

Meet steve and put up clips are just off topic. this is about info in written form with video support you can use for your own trial and error that is either good or bad.



no they are not off topic tom.you really have nothing but words and criticism.its getting old

[swingbuster]

Woggy,

Come on man...you know those hip slide clips are wrong. Her elbow came down frame for frame with her stride. You know she has to stay back with the upper body to prime the torso. Steve teaches that too. The bat drag stuff has nothing to do with lower body mechanics and neither does hip slide.

Hips turn best when the barrel turns. You have to know how to turn the barrel around or you will work yourself to death. I have tried both ways.

You cannot turn hard enough to stop bat drag.... that is not the solution. You turn the lead arm on by turning the hands on to barrel rotation not by killing the hands. They are born wanting to use their hands...show them what the hands must do. No it is not what they think but you can teach the right thing quicker than NOT TO USE THEM....

See some BHUT loading and whip action Hope Dmac doesn't mind

http://www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=HitZone&showtopic=110

[tom.guerry]

JJA -

You and the other groupthinkers do not know what you are looking at as confirmed by the belief that the PCRW ("W" for whatever) approach is compatible with the high level mlb swing. It is not.

Steve E apparently does not know what he does in his own swing. The one armed swing on the front of the website is in the high level pattern because the back arm and hand ARE contributing. Not just along for the ride.

As long as Steve continues the Nyman worship he will continue to produce spinners with early adjustability and late batspeed.

Nyman has no clue on how the plane is matched in the high level swing. How the plane is matched is essential to creating cusp to make the swing quick with early batspeed and late adjustability.

Steve criticizes "cue" descriptions (like lane match for example), but sadly, his own multiyear search for the holy grail has lead to the WRONG understanding of kinesiological sequence, and the lack of understanding the direction "function" of the scaps. Blinded by the "science" of Nyman.

In other words, Nyman and Englishbey do NOT understand cusp formation/ scap loading or scap direction in the swing. Or how they are controlled. Or how to use backward chaining in the high level swing which must be based on the adjustment you have to make on the fly,etc etc.

They teach spin and the only hope to get to the high level is to gain an understanding of the high level arm action sequence and let it reprogram the rest of the body. That is being appreciated more and more by PCR refugees and others. Trial and error ignoring the PCR description. Ignoring the trainer's perspective. Ignoring the functional approach.

Wake up and stop drinking the koolaid.

Or keep trying the PCRWhatever. Stay in the hermetically sealed bubble of stepro and EH. Results will be the same old spinhook. Better have some hot bats with big sweetspots and without weight restrictions to make a go of it. Do not mistake it for an mlb swing.

Don't say you were not warned.

[swingbuster]

THis may or may not make sense to you but here goes. ...it explains the why!!

the hips turn best " in a barrel" IOWs they are more limited in their ability to adjust the angle of rotation. For the sake of this post lets say they turn FLAT.

The shoulders have more options. With changes in spine angle/ posture and changes in elbow positions , the shoulders can tilt the plane from the waist and tilt the plane again with elbow position. This is seen when one takes the rear elbow up and behind the body and the lead elbow down and in close. Now what you see is a higher barrel tipped to pitcher.

IT IS A DOUBLE ADJUSTMENT OF THE BODY THAT PLACES THE BARREL MORE VERTICAL AND SETS AN OBLIQUE PLANE AT LAUNCH.

That is setting up the shoulders for the most oblique plane possible anatomically and the option but not the obligation for a steep decent to the low ball and still get optimal trajectory.

Remember the hips are locked into a fairly FLAT turn, but remember the torso connection doesn't care. It is flexable and capable of driving the first engine supplying power to a flat shoulder turn or an oblique shoulder turn.

The top hand whip effect (second engine) is more available when your shoulders have made the double adjusment for the steeper plane. Remember, there is no obligation to stay on that plane because you can flatten out of this launch but you cannot start flat and change to oblique on the fly.....no can do.

The higher hand set batter can flatten out on approach and get on top of a high pitch , can turn through the oblique plane and drive the low pitch on a HR trajectory effortlessly.

The flatter shoulder batter can get in the center or on top of the high pitch but CANNOT get back to the oblique plane by raising his bat tip on approach ...IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

The bat tip CANNOT be raised when the shoulder turns starts but it can be lowered I have said you must enter the swing plane with the barrel above it or in it. If the pitch is low then " in it" is more vertical.

The tip it and rip it hand set puts the batter in a more versatille position to handle up/ down/ in/ out and all with more power. Aaron, Ruth, Williams, , and now Delgado, Jones, Big Pappy, Wright, Piazza...did not do this for show..they did it for mechanical advantage

[JJA]

Tom,

Once again, it is disappointing about your lack of specifics. By your own admission, you don't own any of Nyman's or Steve E's materials. You also readily admit that you have not seen either man work with players. Yet, despite this lack of information, you can still definitively state that their teaching methods are fundamentally flawed and can't produce a swing that look like Steve's (which you now admit is a high level swing). Wow.

More assorted thoughts based on your "analysis"...

The thought that Nyman doesn't understand scaps when that term is more or less synonymous with Nyman is absolutely laughable.

Steve E has a high level swing on his web site, but his method is fundamentally flawed because he listened to Paul Nyman. On the other hand, Epstein's site is littered with videos of his students that have badly flawed mechanics (back foot uppercutters) as you have admitted on several occasions (you qualify this admission by saying that the students are "getting there") yet you claim over and over again that he has the best material out there. Go figure.

Gentle readers, the bottom line is for you to view video of the various gurus' students and see if their students look like the best in the world. If they do, then stop searching and go with that method. If they don't, look elsewhere. Listening to a bunch of internet jockies arguing about the merits of one guru versus another, whether one gurus method should theoretically work or not is a waste of time. I'm just wasting my time as a counterbalance for some of the extreme positions that people are taking that are based on emotion and not on video.

-JJA

[JJA]

SB,

Just one comment about the video of the girl. The analysis on Siggy's site is the way the PCR(W) guys view that swing. It certainly is not the way you view it. On the other hand, I argue that there are many different ways of fixing her swing. You've got your way, the PCRW guys have theirs, Lau has his, etc. Each person would attempt to fix it in a different way, but everyone would say her swing needs fixing.

And every method out there involves both upper, middle and lower body mechanics. I don't know where Nyman or Steve E would start with her swing, but a possible method would be to tell her to maintain the box and rotate with no stride as the first thing to work on. (Let me qualify this by saying that I'm just making this up. I'm not Paul or Steve, so I honestly don't know what they would start with. It's just an example to make a point.) Well, maintaining the box is an upper body cue, not a middle cue or lower body cue. Maintaining the box is a PCR(W) based way of doing what you're trying to do via different methods. That gets her bat into a better position and keeps her from dropping it like she is doing.

There are lots of ways to skin the cat. The key is the before/after video. Any method should theoretically work if there is enough "glue" from the instructor that fills in the hole of the theory. But theory doesn't count for beans. Take a look at a student before, and a student after to see the efficacy of the teaching method. That's all that counts in the end. Words are fine I guess, but pale in comparison to video evidence.

-JJA

[Mark H]

If it steers a few dads and coaches in the right direction, your time is not wasted JJA. That would seem to be your apparent motivation. Once when I mentioned this as my motivation for spending time on the net, Tom dismissed the notion that anything we were doing on the net had an impact on kids across the country. My question was, Tom, if you believe that, what is your motivation for spending time doing this? Never answered.

[JJA]

Mark,

Yes, that's the sole reason I spend time on these boards. When my son was 6, I wanted to figure out how to teach my son and the other kids on his team the best way to hit. I bought everyone's stuff and read everything I could find. It took me a long time to figure out what was good and what was nonsense. You and others like you sure helped me out, so if some my lessons learned can speed the process for other parents and coaches, it's worth my time. If I can help the kids enjoy the game by having more success, that's what is all about.

-JJA

[swingbuster]

JJA ...what turned me around...


After the first 4 days of cage tee work with hand set ; we moved the HS team from the cage tees to the main field for more tee work.

We set the tee down and away and tipped and ripped to RCF .

We then hit up the middle from middle pitch locations and then pulled from the side for a few swings.

I wanted them to gauge for themselves the power and direction changes against the back drop of the whole field. It was impressive and I was excited

This was step two.

Step 3 Moving to live arm took the most time to work the barrel correctly in the load looking at the pitchers motion. I stepped in a lot at this point between pitches putting the hands and barrel in position and setting the new box. THis is where I saw immediate cause and effect up close and personal

Step 4 ....a few games to catch fire against the competition. The first 3 game tourney early in year we hit 6-7 HRs and swept the field. The first time our school had ever won that tourney ...I was VERY excited as I knew I had made a difference for the kids


I had felt like I had helped before but never like this

[Mark H]

Wonderful. Too bad we can't watch the process. How about doing some field work on your method with a bunch of hitters of different ages and abilities all the way down to the 10 year old with a typically poor youth swing and give us a report verbally and with video so we can see how the process works with less than varsity high school hitters.

[ssarge]

If I can help the kids enjoy the game by having more success, that's what is all about.

Exactly right for many of us.

But clearly, it is not universal.

I say that not to impugn anyone's motives. There are other legitimate reasons to be involved in these kinds of online communities.

And some other reasons which are less legitimate, IMO.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

I say that not to impugn anyone's motives. There are other legitimate reasons to be involved in these kinds of online communities.

And some other reasons which are less legitimate, IMO.


Scott,

To coach HS for 3 hours daily free is legitamate. To explain what helped the kids is too. Ten previous years of coaching youth ball seeing better but not best using many cues and many peoples teaching systems IS experience

As far as motive....If I said that I gave a school three HBHs and left and all this happened then I would deserve what anybody might say.

My product is never at the core of what I say. My message is consistent....how to teach upper body mechanics and why I think it is important.

No motive other than to share what we think helps some kids.

[Mark H]

For the record, I believe your motives are pure.

[swingbuster]

Thank you Mark...that means something to me
I appreciate it

[Jake Patterson]

Thank you Mark...that means something to me
I appreciate it

I appreciate that we each recognize why we are here. I have not seen a forumer here who I felt had ulterior motives. Even you know who from the pool place.

[ssarge]

To coach HS for 3 hours daily free is legitamate. To explain what helped the kids is too. Ten previous years of coaching youth ball seeing better but not best using many cues and many peoples teaching systems IS experience

As far as motive....If I said that I gave a school three HBHs and left and all this happened then I would deserve what anybody might say.

My product is never at the core of what I say. My message is consistent....how to teach upper body mechanics and why I think it is important.

No motive other than to share what we think helps some kids.

Donny:

I really apologize if you thought that my comment was directed at you. But I am also surprised you would think that, as I have said on several occasions that I respect the fact that you work w/ kids, and that I DON'T question your motives. And I DO respect that you work w/ kids.

To reiterate - the comment was NOT directed at you.

Best regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

Scott,

I did not think it was but I took the opportunity to reveal that I am a student first and run a business second.

I want to openly reveal that teaching one on one trumps any product or DVD that anybody can buy.

All info and products are subject to improper use, errors in interpretation, and application.

I don't care what the novice Dad buys and or does....he will spend considerable time in the dark and making many mistakes depending on his powers of perception.

Any of us can see in minutes what would take him months. The reason

Why are you a good teacher?

I make the right decisions

How did you learn to make the right decisions?

By making a lot of wrong decisions

nobody escapes this phase and it can be fairly long.....the playing life of your kid for most.

[Mark H]

nobody escapes this phase and it can be fairly long.....the playing life of your kid for most.

Yes and that's a shame. Which is why I preach to people, don't just pick an expert with a resume and pray you chose well. Compare everything to video of the best to give yourself a fighting chance of choosing well in terms of an instructor or instruction materials or advisor.

[ssarge]

Donny's point is right.

Learning to hit is an inescapable trial-and-error process.

The best an instructor - be it a professional with a series of DVDs, or a dad in the garage - can do is to shorten that trial-and-error process.

However, I do believe that some instructional material will aid that endeavor far more than other materials out there.

Regards,

Scott