hitting nothing but ground balls

[fisher01hunt]

about 90 percent of the time i hit nothing but ground balls. I try and tell myself to let the ball get deep and hit the lower half of the ball. I know it hard to give advice without seeing my swing but what kind of adjustments should I make so I can get some loft on the ball?

[jbooth]

about 90 percent of the time i hit nothing but ground balls. I try and tell myself to let the ball get deep and hit the lower half of the ball. I know it hard to give advice without seeing my swing but what kind of adjustments should I make so I can get some loft on the ball?

Are you swinging with your back straight? Are you rotating your shoulders flat while you swing down? If you are you will hit grounders, pop-ups and swing and miss a lot

Like this;



To hit line drives and fly balls, you need to tilt over and rotate your shoulders and arms like this;

[Sonny Schmidt]

about 90 percent of the time i hit nothing but ground balls. I try and tell myself to let the ball get deep and hit the lower half of the ball. I know it hard to give advice without seeing my swing but what kind of adjustments should I make so I can get some loft on the ball?


I must ask: how quick are your hands; how quickly are you able to thrust them through the zone?

- Regards,

Sonny Schmidt.

[fisher01hunt]

I'd say quick, I'm always way ahead of everthing so i'm constantly telling my self to wait back. Its probably becasue I grew up hitting off of a pitching machine and my dad usally had it cranked up.

[GFK]

about 90 percent of the time i hit nothing but ground balls. I try and tell myself to let the ball get deep and hit the lower half of the ball. I know it hard to give advice without seeing my swing but what kind of adjustments should I make so I can get some loft on the ball?


I'd say quick, I'm always way ahead of everthing so i'm constantly telling my self to wait back. Its probably becasue I grew up hitting off of a pitching machine and my dad usally had it cranked up.

As you previously stated, without video of your swing, any advice is a crapshoot.

I suspect your swing is not as quick as you think it is. It is not hard to hit off a machine with relatively constant location and speed. You know were the ball is going and how long it will take to get there. You can hit off the machine (and hit it hard) with a long swing.

Now you go up against live-arm pitching. Your swing is long. You may generate good bat speed but you need to start the swing relatively early. This means you do not get to watch the ball as long. You make contact out front because your brain knows your long swing produced top bat speed out front instead of deep. With a long swing, you have less time to watch the ball and you have to hit the ball out front to allow time to develop bat speed. This means less information (ball spin and trajectory) and less time to process it.

Back to the first statement. Without video of your swing, any advice is a crapshoot.

[Mark H]

I must ask: how quick are your hands; how quickly are you able to thrust them through the zone?

- Regards,

Sonny Schmidt.

Sonny, I'm begging you to educate yourself before you teach any more kids anything about hitting. Seriously. If you will make the commitment, I will be happy to provide you a reading list and answer any questions along the way on here or by pm.

I'm also challenging you to find video of a great hitter who thrusts his hands through the zone. That's called variously: an arm swing, disconnection or Mike Marshall mechanics. Please, please stop saying things like this if front of dads and kids.

[GFK]

Sonny, I'm begging you to educate yourself before you teach any more kids anything about hitting. Seriously. If you will make the commitment, I will be happy to provide you a reading list and answer any questions along the way on here or by pm.

I'm also challenging you to find video of a great hitter who thrusts his hands through the zone. That's called variously: an arm swing, disconnection or Mike Marshall mechanics. Please, please stop saying things like this if front of dads and kids.

Mark, my intuition tells me his agenda is something other than helping dads and kids.

[Sonny Schmidt]

Mark, my intuition tells me his agenda is something other than helping dads and kids.


Watch a swing video of Garry Sheffield, and you'll see what I am talking about.

[Ursa Major]

Chameleon said: This animation represents a very slow swing technique. The bat will be slow through the zone. You'll have to start early on the fastball making you a sucker for the curve.
ROTFL -- uh, it's in slow motion, dude. And the guy also isn't wearing pants -- serious safety issue there. And he's not using his back arm/hand. And ..... :confused:

This is a model of a major league swing. What is it about it that you think makes it a slow swing, Chammy?

[FindAGap12]

...The animation looks an awful lot like this swing...http://media.putfile.com/dwright


This swing plane has very little to do with quickness, or lack there of, imo

[GFK]

Watch a swing video of Garry Sheffield, and you'll see what I am talking about.

Sonny, I have tons of clips. Sorry to say, I don't have any of Sheffield. Would you mind emailing me the clips you are using for reference? I would get some new clips, and you would be better able to convey your message.

[jojab]

Here is a clip for you:



http://www.filelodge.com/files/room38/1081215/Gary%20Sheffield-side.gif

[tom.guerry]

jojab-

Do you think what Sheff is doing remotely resembles the avatar ?

[JJA]

A couple of interesting things to note about the Sheffield clip. First, his back foot is off the ground at contact like so many other sluggers indicating he is not hitting off his back foot. Secondly, it shows that his head is still moving after his front foot comes down. Only about 1/2 of his head, a few inches, but he is definitely NOT rotating about a stationary axis. Nice clip.

Tom, what do you see as the difference between the avatar and the Sheffield clip?

-JJA

[jojab]

jojab-

Do you think what Sheff is doing remotely resembles the avatar ?

Although it is not a serious question on your part, yes, more than remotely, Tom.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

Just curious - why did you edit the clip that was playing and just leave the link?

Thanks

Yes, I was going to PM you.
BBF Policy: Baseball Fever is not a promotional environment. Advertising of products, web sites, etc., whether for profit or not-for-profit, is not permitted.

I have been able to garner some latitude to the above in Coaching 101 not afforded in other boards because of the nature of our board i.e. referencing items from other sites for the sake of training. The URL is fine the link to the site was not.

[jojab]

Yes, I was going to PM you.
BBF Policy: Baseball Fever is not a promotional environment. Advertising of products, web sites, etc., whether for profit or not-for-profit, is not permitted.

I have been able to garner some latitude to the above in Coaching 101 not afforded in other boards because of the nature of our board i.e. referencing items from other sites for the sake of training. The URL is fine the link to the site was not.

What was showing up on your end? All I posted was a clip of his swing (on a free file server site). On my end it was playing the gif of his swing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to download the file.

The URL was fine but the link was not? What is the difference between them?

[Jake Patterson]

What was showing up on your end? All I posted was a clip of his swing (on a free file server site). On my end it was playing the gif of his swing. I posted the link in case anyone wanted to download the file.

The URL was fine but the link was not? What is the difference between them?

Jo - check you PM's

[Mark H]

Mark, my intuition tells me his agenda is something other than helping dads and kids.

Maybe, but I've seen plenty of sincere guys who had very erroneous notions about what a high level swing consisted of.

[Mark H]

Watch a swing video of Garry Sheffield, and you'll see what I am talking about.

I've watched video of Sheffield and I don't see anything like thrusting of the hands. Slow it down to frame by frame. Also, watch clips of hitters from above and note whether and when the hands' relationship to the rear shoulder changes.

The following link is the picture I get of your teaching. Please tell me I'm wrong about what you believe. http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

[FindAGap12]

This is FAR from a model of a mlb swing.

Chameleon, while I will concede that this model is not 100% ideal, I would like to know what, in your opinion, is wrong with the model.

I see David Wright's swing as identical to the animation, would you agree?

[Mark H]

So, your notion is the right one?

Fair question. As always, compare anything anyone tells you about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. Let that be your truth detector for my opinons, your opinions and everyone else's opinion as well. No need to take a vote or check resume's. Just look at the readily available video and see for yourself what the best really do.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=u0kj6o6k21.lion_s

[tom.guerry]

I would agree with mark on the sincerity angle, but I think the prime example now of being out of touch is the confusion of PCR/AVATAR with high level mlb swing.

The two are SIGNIFICANTLY different.

Except for the hot metal bat, I would say teaching avatar/pcr is malpractice.

JJA-

let's hear what you think the difference is.

How about where the shoulders are related to where the bat is ?

How about the transition of the plane of the bat ?

When do the shoulders start to turn ?

How about the transition of the plane of the shoulders with respect to the hips ?

[Mark H]

This animation represents a very slow swing technique. The bat will be slow through the zone. You'll have to start early on the fastball making you a sucker for the curve.

This opinion doesn't hold up in comparison to video of MLB hitters IMO. OTOH, perhaps you want to see the momentum development/stride into this point or maybe you want to see Swingbuster's bat tipping favorite move? The first of which would be there if this clip were explaining the whole swing. The second, I would have no problem with in a high level swing.

Or is there some other problem you have with this swing? What do you not like about it?

[Mark H]

I would agree with mark on the sincerity angle, but I think the prime example now of being out of touch is the confusion of PCR/AVATAR with high level mlb swing.

The two are SIGNIFICANTLY different.

Except for the hot metal bat, I would say teaching avatar/pcr is malpractice.

JJA-

let's hear what you think the difference is.

How about where the shoulders are related to where the bat is ?

How about the transition of the plane of the bat ?

When do the shoulders start to turn ?

How about the transition of the plane of the shoulders with respect to the hips ?

Whatever Tom. So what do you think about thrusting the hands?

[tom.guerry]

I think thrusting the hands is usually a bad cue.

[GFK]

Here is a clip for you:



http://www.filelodge.com/files/room38/1081215/Gary%20Sheffield-side.gif

Thanks jojab! 60 fps, Top Shelf!

[GFK]

Watch a swing video of Garry Sheffield, and you'll see what I am talking about.

Sonny, I looked at the clip of Sheffield and I do not see throwing / thrusting of the hands. I see the bat locked into a powerful turn at the beginning. Then extension into contact. For the PCR crowd, this swing starts as a flail and ends in a whip.

[virg]

....
Or is there some other problem you have with this swing? What do you not like about it?

It's a fine slowpitch softball swing. But what good is a slowpitch swing for 99.99% of batters in the fast game? Slowpitch swings are the reason for hitting instruction.

[Mark H]

I think thrusting the hands is usually a bad cue.

A bad cue AND not reality. Tom and Mark, agreeing for now.

[jbooth]

This animation represents a very slow swing technique. The bat will be slow through the zone. You'll have to start early on the fastball making you a sucker for the curve.

SLOW? It seems to work fine for just about every MLB hitter in the game today.

Why do you think it is slow?

[Mark H]

It's a fine slowpitch softball swing. But what good is a slowpitch swing for 99.99% of batters in the fast game? Slowpitch swings are the reason for hitting instruction.

Virg, I don't see much point in arguing with you or with Mike Marshall advocates anymore. What's that link to your site again?

[jbooth]

This is FAR from a model of a mlb swing.

That avatar was made by Paul Nyman, based upon video of the swing of Manny Ramirez. Are you saying Manny doesn't have a model MLB swing?

[jojab]

That avatar was made by Paul Nyman, based upon video of the swing of Manny Ramirez. Are you saying Manny doesn't have a model MLB swing?

Let's see, we have Tom who doesn't like the Avatar just because Paul Nyman is the one that produced it and Tom is the anti-Nyman. We have Virg thinking that Manny has a great slowpitch softball swing and we are unsure what Chameleon thinks because all he will say is it FAR from a MLB swing.

Hopefully all is not lost though because the models were put up by Jim to demonstrate why fisher01hunt may be hitting too many ground balls. Perhaps he has studied the two different models and the swings of the high-level hitters and found something useful. :D

[tom.guerry]

I'm saying the avatar is not swinging like Manny.

high level players do not tilt the torso and connect and turn like heck while maintaining the box.

Can you see the difference ?

[hellborn]

about 90 percent of the time i hit nothing but ground balls. I try and tell myself to let the ball get deep and hit the lower half of the ball. I know it hard to give advice without seeing my swing but what kind of adjustments should I make so I can get some loft on the ball?
I wonder if you might not be making much use of your lower body. I find that, when I am too concerned about making contact, that I will sometimes "feel" for the ball too much and not take an aggressive swing, to the point of being flatfooted. This will make me hit lots of grounders, I think because I am so upright, so to speak.
I do not use or advocate a huge forward step into the ball, but I have found myself suffering from the same problem as you when I do not use my usual knee cock and hip rotation in my swing. Hope this is of some help. Not much high level theory here, I'm afraid.

[Mark H]

That avatar was made by Paul Nyman, based upon video of the swing of Manny Ramirez. Are you saying Manny doesn't have a model MLB swing?

Oops. Some of these guys remember EVERYTHING. ;)

[Mark H]

Looks like the definition of bat drag.

If that's Manny, them I'm Brad Pitt.

.

Are we looking at the same animation? The one I'm seeing only shows the bottom hand arm. Bat drag is about a whipping action of the top hand arm. By definition this animation could not show bat drag. It might be a lot of things but it can't possibly show bat drag. Or maybe I'm looking at the wrong animation?

[tom.guerry]

whatever it is it isn't part of a high level swing.

it does not resemble manny.

maybe it's just a drill.

If so, it isn't teaching a pattern compatible with high level.

It's teaching the Nyman spinhook.

Late batspeed.

Early adjustability.

Poor cusp.

Poor quickness.

Poor direction.

As compared to mlb woodbat swing.

see comparison:

http://www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=HitZone&showtopic=36

[Mark H]

LOL Politics and what else make strange bedfellows goes the saying. Is this full circle?

[tadlock11]

Maybe, but I've seen plenty of sincere guys who had very erroneous notions about what a high level swing consisted of.

:waving I was one of them, came on here after a few years of coaching youth baseball using a "cookie cutter" hitting method. Now about a year later, I've had a few sessions with one of the best instructors around and have learned (still learning) a much more efficient swing. My sons have gone from average hitters to above average and are still a long way from the finish line. If I may suggest to some of you to swallow your pride and put the student hat back on, you may be suprised at what there is to learn.

[jbooth]

whatever it is it isn't part of a high level swing.

it does not resemble manny.

maybe it's just a drill.

If so, it isn't teaching a pattern compatible with high level.

It's teaching the Nyman spinhook.

Late batspeed.

Early adjustability.

Poor cusp.

Poor quickness.

Poor direction.

As compared to mlb woodbat swing.

see comparison:

http://www.freeboards.net/index.php?mforum=HitZone&showtopic=36

They look almost identical to me. The only difference is that the avatar is viewed more from the pitching mound and the video is directly from the side. If you move yourself to the other view the swing would look the same.

Two dimensional pictures combined with different angles make a huge difference in how parts appear to be moving. Plus, nobody swings the same EVERY time in a game.

[virg]

Virg, I don't see much point in arguing with you or with Mike Marshall advocates anymore. What's that link to your site again?
search wristhitter, click read chapter one, read the accompanying chapter 3, on 'Pscience'. The old Jack-Paul-et al crew has finally made it into a useful hitting manual.

[Mark H]

That's right. Love that video. ;) What would be the difference in what you advocate versus what Mashall advocates for hitting?

http://www.wristhitter.com/

[virg]

duplicate post

[virg]

I have no idea what Marshall preaches. Clues?
That video and method: launches from a running start below the chin.
Starts with every pitch, adjusting to 'location' while idling to below chin, then go or no-go from there.
Raise trajectory if desired, by adding kink to rear knee.

[Mark H]

I'd say the clip speaks for itself.

[virg]

I'd say the clip speaks for itself.
Yes I'm sure it does, but it speaks to deaf eyes.

[Mark H]

Apparently so because I'm just kind of embarrassed for you. How about getting a better athlete to demo whatever it is you are trying to show there?

[virg]

Apparently so because I'm just kind of embarrassed for you. How about getting a better athlete to demo whatever it is you are trying to show there?
Effortless batspeed, there it is. It doesn't take your 'elite' athlete.

[FindAGap12]

Virg,

Have you ever measured your batspeed? The speedchek radar is a good way to find out...
http://www.fyeo.com/contents/products/speedcheck-radar.html

I've used it on hundreds of players, from 8-year-olds to minor leaguers.

I'm not trying to be cruel here, but I am willing to bet that the swings on your website are probably in the 60 mph range, which would be good little league/poor freshman HS speeds.

[Mark H]

It's going to take more than the fingers on one hand to count the frames in that swing.

[virg]

Have you ever measured your batspeed? The speedchek radar is a good way to find out...
http://www.fyeo.com/contents/products/speedcheck-radar.html. Mark H "It's going to take more than the fingers on one hand to count the frames in that swing. "

It's from an old faded 50mm videotape. What next?

[virg]

Virg, I'm not trying to be cruel here, but I am willing to bet that the swings on your website are probably in the 60 mph range, which would be good little league/poor freshman HS speeds.
FindAGap; you are in deep trouble, jumped in way over your head.

[Mark H]

Why would you throw out a gratuitous insult? If he's right, admit it. If he's wrong, teach him. If you can't win the argument, don't lash out, just man up and say so.

I'm editing this to note that Virg or the moderator has removed the gratuitous insult.

[Mark H]

Mark H "It's going to take more than the fingers on one hand to count the frames in that swing. "

It's from an old faded 50mm videotape. What next?

Some video of an impressive swing.

[FindAGap12]

Find AGap; you are in deep trouble, jumped in way over your head.

whoa, I was just making an honest, qualified assessment. I was just asking if you had measured your batspeed, instead of simply stating that you had it...and I don't think that I am the only one here who would rate your swing at the low-youth level...

I will stand by my claim...Buy a speedchek, take that same swing, and I will guarantee that you are in the 50s or low 60s. The average HS Varsity player would be in the upper 70s and 80s...

[GFK]

...and I don't think that I am the only one here who would rate your swing at the low-youth level...

I will stand by my claim...Buy a speedchek, take that same swing, and I will guarantee that you are in the 50s or low 60s. The average HS Varsity player would be in the upper 70s and 80s...

Virg, remember, swinging broomsticks and T-Ball bats doesn't count. something no less than 29 oz.

Also, it does not matter if you can muster up tremendous bat speed if it takes you 7 to 8 frames to do it.

[virg]

It's going to take more than the fingers on one hand to count the frames in that swing.
Set aside your 'belief system', see the swing and read the caption. You(all) are assuming the usual launch point at the back foot. Read the caption carefully. All that happens in an attack is the arc of the bat. The rest is an idling noncommittal start that happens on every pitch, Go or NoGo.

[virg]

Why would you throw out a gratuitous insult? If he's right, admit it. If he's wrong, teach him. If you can't win the argument, don't lash out, just man up and say so.I have never called attention to that swing here. Others have, along with belittling remarks. Am I not even permitted to dodge?

[virg]

Also, it does not matter if you can muster up tremendous bat speed if it takes you 7 to 8 frames to do it.
7 frames for the bat to turn the corner?

[FindAGap12]

I have never called attention to that swing here. Others have, along with belittling remarks. Am I not even permitted to dodge?

Calling me a name that has since been deleted and threatening me (?) is a little more than dodging, and it's a vioaltion of board policy. For someone twice my age, you really show a lack of maturity at times...

Again, I was simply making an honest guess to your actual batspeed. I was not trying to be mean-spirited. And I truly feel that my statement is how most would evaluate your swing, not just myself.

[virg]

... And I truly feel that my statement is how most would evaluate your swing, not just myself.
Most would evaluate it that way too because they'd all make the same mistake; starting from the common rotational launch point.

Sorry about that inadvertent 'name'.

[FindAGap12]

Here's the problem. I am not arguing quickness, but batspeed. You mention effortless batspeed, this is simply not the case. I think you are confusing quickness and batspeed. Batspeed is very simple to define...How much velocity the tip of the bat has at contact. Quickness is much trickier.

You could argue about your swing's quickness...but not your batspeed...The maximum speed of the barrel in that swing could not possibly be more than 60 mph...Sorry

And the name did not bother me much, to be honest...

[Mark H]

Set aside your 'belief system', see the swing and read the caption. You(all) are assuming the usual launch point at the back foot. Read the caption carefully. All that happens in an attack is the arc of the bat. The rest is an idling noncommittal start that happens on every pitch, Go or NoGo.

You are assuming a wrong assumption. I count frames starting at the first movement of the bathead into the swing plane.

[Jake Patterson]

I count frames starting at the first movement of the bathead into the swing plane.

Mark - can you further explain a frame count? Do all cameras click off images at the same speed and intervals?
I would imagine that there are varying types of cameras used on sites like this...
Jake

[Mark H]

Standard video is 30fps. I have adopted Dmac's starting point as the most objective relevant method. Start counting at first movement of the bathead into the swing plane and count frames till contact.

[Jake Patterson]

Standard video is 30fps. I have adopted Dmac's starting point as the most objective relevant method. Start counting at first movement of the bathead into the swing plane and count frames till contact.

Thanks .

[GFK]

Mark - can you further explain a frame count? Do all cameras click off images at the same speed and intervals?
I would imagine that there are varying types of cameras used on sites like this...
Jake


Standard video is 30fps. I have adopted Dmac's starting point as the most objective relevant method. Start counting at first movement of the bathead into the swing plane and count frames till contact.

Some use stride foot landing. I use both Dmac's and the front foot landing (completely).

With the overwhelming majority of cameras, the video is 30 fps. Some cameras capture at 60 fps or 30 fps footage is deinterlaced to 60 fps by deviding the fields in 30 fps video. If you are looking at a clip of a MLB hitter, the majority of them will make contact between the 4th and 5th frames when viewing 30 fps clips. You can tell the 60 fps clips because contact will be almost exactly 9 frames.

[Mark H]

Some use stride foot landing. I use both Dmac's and the front foot landing (completely).

.

That can be problematic when looking at some of the non standard swings taught to some females. I have yet to have a problem applying Dmac's method.

[dougmac]

I use the "bathead moving" as a starting time because sometimes with good hitters, the front foot will land and nothing will happen for a frame when the pitch is a soft curve or change and then even with great hitters, a 5 1/2 to 6 frame to contact can happen. I have a couple of clips of Bonds waiting on soft stuff that are nearly 6 frames to contact and he is lightning quick. When I do the filming myself, I always save a clip when the hitter gets a fastball in a fastball count......that way I am more sure of myself when making a judgement on that hitter's quickness.

I have filmed my own son against a couple of pac 10 pitchers that can run it up close to 100 mph (Morrow & Lincecum) and he is 4 frames on the money. Against some guys that throw 84-85 and throw a lot of off speed, he is 5 to 5 1/2 frames.

I feel that it is a valuable tool for me to use, but I also have to be aware of the pitch, speed and count for it to have "full" value for me.

[FindAGap12]

That can be problematic when looking at some of the non standard swings taught to some females. I have yet to have a problem applying Dmac's method.


With the early striders, use the heel planting as the trigger, not the toe touching. Early striders still have to plant the heel on time to begin rotation.

[FindAGap12]

I use the "bathead moving" as a starting time because sometimes with good hitters, the front foot will land and nothing will happen for a frame when the pitch is a soft curve or change and then even with great hitters, a 5 1/2 to 6 frame to contact can happen.

Good point...

[dougmac]

With the early striders, use the heel planting as the trigger, not the toe touching. Early striders still have to plant the heel on time to begin rotation.


I have found over the years that early striders can't hit a lick, so I don't bother counting the frames. The guys who can hit stride "right on time".

[Mark H]

With the early striders, use the heel planting as the trigger, not the toe touching. Early striders still have to plant the heel on time to begin rotation.

You would think, but it's not always the case.

[Mark H]

I have found over the years that early striders can't hit a lick, so I don't bother counting the frames. The guys who can hit stride "right on time".

In your world, that's understandable. At the lower levels where most of us live, I like your method because it works for every swing. Even those non standard less than optimal swings that Dad just wants to make better. For an example of an early strider swing, consider this clip. Now I don't consider this major league quality, but, at the time of this clip, she was arguably the best female college hitter in the country in the strongest conference in the country, but your starting point still works. http://home.mindspring.com/~rmk/Jungawayslow.mpg

[FindAGap12]

I have found over the years that early striders can't hit a lick, so I don't bother counting the frames. The guys who can hit stride "right on time".
I couldn't agree with you more...I don't know how many kids I see who are taught to "get the foot down early"...It's the same type of "compensation" teaching that breed kids to try and swing down, keep the shoulders level, keep the hips closed, etc...

[virg]

I have found over the years that early striders can't hit a lick, so I don't bother counting the frames. The guys who can hit stride "right on time".
funny I had to be the last to know. I'd always thought I seldom missed.

[GFK]

I have found over the years that early striders can't hit a lick, so I don't bother counting the frames. The guys who can hit stride "right on time".

This is why I will use the "stride foot landing" as a starting point. It tells me if a kid is striding, waiting, then swinging. It shows up as a frame count difference between Dmac's method and the "stride foot landing" method.

Beyond that, Dmac's method is the standard I have adopted.

[GFK]

funny I had to be the last to know. I'd always thought I seldom missed.

Virg, I am going to call you out. What are your intentions on this board? Are you trying to help better the hitting instruction community or are you just trying to win some argument or grind some axe?

[virg]

Virg, I am going to call you out. What are your intentions on this board? Are you trying to help better the hitting instruction community or are you just trying to win some argument or grind some axe?

It's not a community, it's turf you have staked. Nearly any day I've plugged in here, I've resolved it would be the last. Basically it's fascination with how this little mafia of yours functions. Most anything outside of its evangelical range seems to be a turf threat and is either 1 buried, 2 ignored, 3 belittled, or 4 somehow the subject changes..

Secondarily, while I tend to stay off rotational batting form I do like to contribute on the 'mental' side. But it too is handled the mafia way, usually 2 or 4. In a pinch, you call in one of the bigger dogs to do some barking. (Or is it a pecking order kinda caper?)

So yeah, I do react and once I get started will not quit.

Note how a certain swing was judged quick but it's batspeed vaguely questioned, and that Q left idle. Note how its possible frame count veered into another messy set of Qs. Note how others are badgered about proof, but you reserve a right to make a judgement call on something as subjective as batspeed.

[Jake Patterson]

It's not a community, it's turf you have staked. Nearly any day I've plugged in here, I've resolved it would be the last. Basically it's fascination with how this little mafia of yours functions. Most anything outside of its evangelical range seems to be a turf threat and is either 1 buried, 2 ignored, 3 belittled, or 4 somehow the subject changes..

Secondarily, while I tend to stay off rotational batting form I do like to contribute on the 'mental' side. But it too is handled the mafia way, usually 2 or 4. In a pinch, you call in one of the bigger dogs to do some barking. (Or is it a pecking order kinda caper?)

So yeah, I do react and once I get started will not quit.

Virg, I do not see it this way at all. This site is one of the largest of its kind in the world. Coaching 101 had nearly 6,000 views in the last two days alone. Many who view do not post and are here to learn.

From my point of view I am unclear what it is you are trying to teach. That may be due to my own ignorance of your particular style of hitting, but the fact remains the advantages are unclear.

My only contact with a wrist hitter was when he took my top three hitters - unbeknownst to me- and made them my bottom three.

Maybe a review of the advantages and key points would be in order.

[virg]

Virg, From my point of view I am unclear what it is you are trying to teach. That may be due to my own ignorance of your particular style of hitting, but the fact remains the advantages are unclear.

Jake, I have not tried to teach wrist or any part thereof here or elsewhere on the web. I have no idea what other "wristhitting" men teach. What I get into has been called by others 'the mental side', and I've been affirmed in it as high as you can go.

No I won't go into wrist 1 around this crowd. 2 adapting to my way demands too much other change to risk it.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, I have not tried to teach wrist or any part thereof here or elsewhere on the web. I have no idea what other "wristhitting" men teach. What I get into has been called by others 'the mental side', and I've been affirmed in it as high as you can go.

No I won't go into wrist 1 around this crowd. 2 adapting to my way demands too much other change to risk it.

Is there something you can send me that would be better explain the mental side? I've been to your site.

[FindAGap12]

Virg, this is an honest question, based soley in curiosity...do you actively teach anyone? Private lessons or team?

I am curious, because I don't understand how someone would have a belief in a type of swing, but would never teach it to most players...You must, either currently or in the past, have taught this to students...correct?

Like many here, I am unsure of your motives. You dislike our system (s)...fine. You won't add your own solutions to the questions posed. You won't offer a clear picture of how a bat should be swung. You claim to be the victim of constant belittlement, yet most posts here and nearly 90% of the writing on your website are blatant attacks on the "rotational mafia".

I would be more open minded to your posts if you were able to clearly state your motives and opinions more often.

[virg]

Virg, this is an honest question, based soley in curiosity...do you actively teach anyone? Private lessons or team?

I am curious, because I don't understand how someone would have a belief in a type of swing, but would never teach it to most players...You must, either currently or in the past, have taught this to students...correct?

Like many here, I am unsure of your motives. You dislike our system (s)...fine. You won't add your own solutions to the questions posed. You won't offer a clear picture of how a bat should be swung. You claim to be the victim of constant belittlement, yet most posts here and nearly 90% of the writing on your website are blatant attacks on the "rotational mafia".

I would be more open minded to your posts if you were able to clearly state your motives and opinions more often.
blatant attacks on the "rotational mafia". that is who chapter 3 was written for; the control-and chaos freaks I saw trashing a website where kids were getting answers, several years ago.

"You dislike our system" I didn't know that I dislike much but the controlling
"You won't offer a clear picture of how a bat should be swung" mostly, your swing thing is okay with me
"claim to be the victim of constant belittlement, " no problem, the hitting world always worked that way. Chaptrer 3 was written with the mafia in mind but has only been visible for about 6 days.
"do you actively teach anyone?"at age 70; seldom any more. Know what I do and taught it from the rubber but can't throw any more.
"Private lessons or team?" taught whenever/wherever asked and learned plenty more doing it. They learned as taught then taught how/why it works.
" am curious, because I don't understand how someone would have a belief in a type of swing, but would never teach it to most players...You must, either currently or in the past, have taught this to students...correct?" It's a front-leg thing that takes extended controlled weight shift
to get it there. Its parts are incompatible with the rotational patterns most kids bring, so I keep those details under wrap to avoid confusion. I don't see the rest of the world respecting this, not that it's aware or cares when It's mentioned
"You must, either currently or in the past, have taught this to students" It takes constant daily care, without contradiction, for weeks. The next coach along will mess with his mind. The shortest path to hitting is that which requires the least change, and it's the path usually chosen.

Aside from the few days when I knew everything, I taught wrist only to lost causes and hopeless cases with all to gain and nothing to lose and with the grit it takes to do the job. No kid has a season to gamble. Had hitters aged 18 (Legion) and 34(semipro) at 400+
" lost causes and hopeless cases with nothing to lose"
the guy swinging was 57, with a top hand severely damaged at age 3
* taught for free and got a bigger kick out of it than they did.

[Mark H]

So, have you got any video of a high level practitioner?

[virg]

So, have you got any video of a high level practitioner?
what's "high level" and what for?

[FindAGap12]

Virg,

Thanks for the info. As much as I may disagree at times with someone like you, I am always willing to listen with an open mind as long as they are willing to be open and want to share ideas...

[virg]

Is there something you can send me that would be better explain the mental side? I've been to your site.
check your p-m?

[Jake Patterson]

check your p-m?

Hi Virg,
Yes I did. thanks.. Like FindAGap I'm willing to listen. I think I need to digest the info.
Again thanks...

[Mark H]

what's "high level" and what for?

One by a hitter who can compete athletically and skill wise at the highest level you can come up with video for. What for is so I can understand what you mean. The swing on your website can't possibly be a good representation of what you are trying to convey.

[virg]

One by a hitter who can compete athletically and skill wise at the highest level you can come up with video for. What for is so I can understand what you mean. The swing on your website can't possibly be a good representation of what you are trying to convey.
Mark, I can think of two things. 1.you're looking (as you were at Hornsby recently) for palms up/down to reverse itself, barely happens. 2. The burst begins as the top hand overtakes the bottom hand.

What else do you need to see? Larger screen? This is on a CD in common format. Maybe someone around here can post it for me.

"The swing on your website can't possibly be a good representation of what you are trying to convey". Those swings were taken into a battery of 6 six-inch floods (saw release/lost it til halfway in/ lost again but hit it) which might have caused some roughness. yes you can hit what you can't see; almost.

[Mark H]

Are you saying the clip on your site is what the mechanic is supposed to look like?

[GFK]

Are you saying the clip on your site is what the mechanic is supposed to look like?

Virg, If your answer to Mark H is "yes", would it be possible for you to post or email me a clip in gif, mpeg, or avi format? I want to look at it frame by frame and create some side by side comparisons.

[virg]

Are you saying the clip on your site is what the mechanic is supposed to look like?
that's it........

[Mark H]

Well OK. Any game video? I'm having trouble imagining this as a successful method. A lot of trouble to be perfectly honest.

[virg]

Virg, If your answer to Mark H is "yes", would it be possible for you to post or email me a clip in gif, mpeg, or avi format? I want to look at it frame by frame and create some side by side comparisons.
soon as I can find a mailman

Soon as I dope out how to send it

[Mark H]

Mailman? .

[tadlock11]

Mailman? .The mechanic is working on his jeep.