Which Players Outside Would You Put In?

[DoubleX]

I think a lot of us have various gripes on the roster of Hall of Famers, and in particular, who is left out. So, if you had the choice, what eligible players on the outside would you put in?

[EvanAparra]

Bert Blyleven
Dick Allen
Jim Kaat
........ more coming later

[rockin500]

obviously santo. he'd be the first. after that, bert and dick allen would the next two.

[EvanAparra]

obviously santo. he'd be the first. after that, bert and dick allen would the next two.
ah yes i forgot about santo!

[DoubleX]

I'd put these players in for sure:

C - Ted Simmons, Joe Torre
1B - Dick Allen
2B - Bobby Grich, Joe Gordon, Lou Whitaker
SS - Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Minnie Minoso, Albert Belle, Bob Johnson, Sherry Magee
CF - Dale Murphy
RF - Andre Dawson

SP - Bert Blyleven
RP - Goose Gossage

I also wouldn't have much of a problem with any of these players making it:

C - Bill Freehan, Wally Schang, Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Elston Howard
1B - Keith Hernandez, Will Clark, Norm Cash, Don Mattingly, Gil Hodges
2B - Willie Randolph, Buddy Myer, Larry Doyle, Del Pratt
SS - Vern Stephens, Cecil Travis, Maury Wills
3B - Ken Boyer, Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Bob Elliot, Lave Cross
LF - Frank Howard, Jim Rice, Bobby Veach
CF - Wally Berger, Jimmy Wynn, Fred Lynn, Cesar Cedeno, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson
RF - Dave Parker, Bobby Bonds, Tony Oliva, Dwight Evans

SP - Jim Kaat, Carl Mays, Luis Tiant, Tony Mullane, Tommy Bridges, Jack Morris, Tommy John, Billy Pierce

RP - Dan Quisenberry, Lee Smith, Tom Henke

[mwiggins]

I'd say Allen, Santo, Gordon, Blyleven, Grich, Gossage, Hodges, and Will Clark. There's others I wouldn't have a problem with, but those guys deserve to be in.

[Fuzzy Bear]

In order:

Ron Santo
Ted Simmons
Stan Hack
Carl Mays
Bert Blyleven
Joe Torre
Dick Allen
Alan Trammell
Lou Whitaker
Bobby Grich
Joe Gordon

There are others, but it becomes a bit of a mish-mosh after these guys.

[Myankee4life]

Joe Gordon tops my list....

[candy curveball cummings]

I'd put these players in for sure:

C - Ted Simmons, Joe Torre
1B - Dick Allen
2B - Bobby Grich, Joe Gordon, Lou Whitaker
SS - Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Minnie Minoso, Albert Belle, Bob Johnson, Sherry Magee
CF - Dale Murphy
RF - Andre Dawson

SP - Bert Blyleven
RP - Goose Gossage

I also wouldn't have much of a problem with any of these players making it:

C - Bill Freehan, Wally Schang, Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Elston Howard
1B - Keith Hernandez, Will Clark, Norm Cash, Don Mattingly, Gil Hodges
2B - Willie Randolph, Buddy Myer, Larry Doyle, Del Pratt
SS - Vern Stephens, Cecil Travis, Maury Wills
3B - Ken Boyer, Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Bob Elliot, Lave Cross
LF - Frank Howard, Jim Rice, Bobby Veach
CF - Wally Berger, Jimmy Wynn, Fred Lynn, Cesar Cedeno, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson
RF - Dave Parker, Bobby Bonds, Tony Oliva, Dwight Evans

SP - Jim Kaat, Carl Mays, Luis Tiant, Tony Mullane, Tommy Bridges, Jack Morris, Tommy John, Billy Pierce

RP - Dan Quisenberry, Lee Smith, Tom Henke

I was going to make a post, but this says it all. Perfect.

[JRB]

I'd put these players in for sure:

C - Ted Simmons, Joe Torre
1B - Dick Allen
2B - Bobby Grich, Joe Gordon, Lou Whitaker
SS - Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Minnie Minoso, Albert Belle, Bob Johnson, Sherry Magee
CF - Dale Murphy
RF - Andre Dawson

SP - Bert Blyleven
RP - Goose Gossage

I also wouldn't have much of a problem with any of these players making it:

C - Bill Freehan, Wally Schang, Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Elston Howard
1B - Keith Hernandez, Will Clark, Norm Cash, Don Mattingly, Gil Hodges
2B - Willie Randolph, Buddy Myer, Larry Doyle, Del Pratt
SS - Vern Stephens, Cecil Travis, Maury Wills
3B - Ken Boyer, Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Bob Elliot, Lave Cross
LF - Frank Howard, Jim Rice, Bobby Veach
CF - Wally Berger, Jimmy Wynn, Fred Lynn, Cesar Cedeno, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson
RF - Dave Parker, Bobby Bonds, Tony Oliva, Dwight Evans

SP - Jim Kaat, Carl Mays, Luis Tiant, Tony Mullane, Tommy Bridges, Jack Morris, Tommy John, Billy Pierce

RP - Dan Quisenberry, Lee Smith, Tom Henke

Double X:

I want to second the nomination on the great and thorough job you did on your list. You included most of the overlooked players that I had been thinking about, plus some who hadn't even crossed my mind. The wide range of your baseball knowledge continues to be impressive. Thanks for mentioning Tommy Bridges, who many reliable sources say had the greatest curve ball ever. I thought he should have been in the Hall of Fame long ago.

Here, is an auxillary list of players who I think made outstanding contributions to the game of baseball who have not been mentioned (If they have I apologize for not noticing). I'm not claiming that it would be some great travesty if all of them weren't included, however I do think each of these players have been significant enough in some area (perhaps if only to advance the level of play at their postion) which merits them to have at least serious consideration for a berth in the HOF.


Pete Browning-

19th Century outfielder-the orginal Louisville Slugger-also nicknamed "The Gladiator"-had either a .349 or .343 lifetime batting average, depending on which officical version of the baseball encyclopedia you reference. Won 3 batting championships, and one reference claims that he once had 275 hits in one season. Perhaps, one of the many experts out there can tell us if there is some particular reason why he has not been included

Art Fletcher-

Shortstop for the New Giants from 1909 to 1920-one of the mainstays of John McGraw's team-one of the great fielding shortstops of all time-helped lead his team to 4 pennants-good baserunner-decent hitter but not much power

Dick Groat-

Shorstop of the 1950's and 60's, primarily for the Pittsburgh Pirates and St. Louis Cardinals. The greatest all around shorstop of his generation in the National League. Lifetime batting average of .286. Won 1 batting championship and finished third in batting once, and fifth once. Was a great athlete with tremendous range in the field. He and Mazeroski formed a great double play combination for the Pirates, and he formed another excellent combination with Julian Javier in St. Louis. Was a great leader and a tremendous force. In 1958 he lead the Pirates to a surprising second place finish. In 1960 he let Pittsburgh to its first World Championship in 35 years, and he received the MVP for 1960. The St. Louis Cardinals had been a second division team finishing 6th in 1962. The Cardinals traded a bunch of players to get Groat, and he turned the team around in 1963. The Cardinals challenged one of the Dodgers greatest teams for the pennant, and finished in second place. Groat finished second in the MVP voting to Sandy Koufax. Excluding pitchers, Groat was the best all around player in the National League that year. The following year,1964, the Cardinals, with Groat contributing significantly, went on to win the pennant and world championship. Groat was also an even greater basketball player. He was a consensus two time All-American guard at Duke in the early 1950's and was College Basketball player of the year. He and Bob Cousy were considered the two greatest basketball players of that era. He played briefly in the NBA. However, basketball wasn't nearly as popular a sport as baseball at that time, so obviously he could make more money in baseball. I know Groat's OPS+ numbers aren't that impressive, but he was a great player in his prime and that just shows you how undependable it is to go strictly by those kind of stats.

Jackie Jensen-

Among outstanding all around outfielders in the American League in the 1950's, Jackie Jensen was probably third behind Mickey Mantle and Al Kaline. He was an oustanding hitter with good power. He was noted as a clutch hitter and was a particularly good RBI man, having 5 100+RBI seasons, and leading the league 3 times. He was a great baserunner and led the league in stolen bases. He was the American League MVP in 1958. After having an outstanding season in 1959 he suddently retired in the prime of his career, and did not play in 1960. He tried to make a comeback in 1961 however his hitting timing was off due to his long absence, and he retired again for good after the 1961 season. Like Groat, he was one of the all time great multi sport athletes. In the 1940's he was one of the greatest running backs in College Football, and was a consensus First Team All-American in the late 1940's at Cal, where he rivaled Doak Walker as the best running back in America. His voluntary decision to take an early retirment obviously hurt his chances of getting into the HOF, however in his prime he was almost as good an all around player as anybody.

Marty Marion-

Shortstop of the St. Louis Cardinals of the 1940's-the greatest fielding shortstop of his generation-many claim they had seen none better-greatly advanced the defensive level of play at his position-nicknamed "The Octopus" -was the MVP in 1944.

Pepper Martin-

Third baseman and outfielder for the St. Louis Cardinals from 1928 to 1940 and 1944-Along with Dizzy Dean he was the heart and soul of the legendary gas house gang-was an important part of two world championship teams-in his first full year of 1931 he batted .300 in the regular season and then electrified the nation with one of the greatest performances in World Series history-he hit .500 and stole 5 bases to lead the Cardinals over the vaunted Philadelphis A's of Lefty Grove, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, etc, and prevent them from winning their 3rd World Championship in a row-his aggresive style of play did much to advance the game-had a lifetime batting average of .298-and was a great baserunner, leading the league in stolen bases 3 times.


Roy McMillan-

Shorstop of the 1950's and 1960's primarily with the Cincinnati Reds, Milwaukee Braves, and Mets- a light hitter but one of the greatest, if not the greatest, fielding shortstops of his era-a lot of people such as Sparky Anderson have said they never saw anyone better-like Marion, he did much to advance the defensive level of play at his position


Clyde Milan (Deerfoot)-

Centerfielder of the Washington Senators from 1907 to 1922. Considered by many one of the all time great defensive stars in center field-Was Walter Johnson's centerfielder all during his prime and his great flyhawking skills to some degree helped Walter achieve his immortality as a pitcher-had tremendous speed hence the nickname "Deerfoot". Was a great baserunner . Stole 88 bases one season, and 75 bases in another. Was mainly a singles type hitter, hence his OPS+ number isn't very high, but once again these kind of numbers shouldn't be the end all.

Terry Moore-

Centerfielder of the St. Louis Cardinals during the late 1930's and 1940's-one of the great defensive centerfielders of all time-there are some that saw them both play that claim he was better defensively than Willie Mays-the St. Louis Cardinals pitching staffs of the 1940's received a great deal of renown, which was in no small part due to the great defense of Terry Moore and his teammate Marty Marion. Good but not outstanding hitter-missed a couple of key prime years in the Army like so many other players from that era did.

Allie Reynolds-

Great right handed pitcher for the Cleveland Indians and then the New York Yankees in the 1940's and early 1950's. Had a 182-107 liftetime record with 36 shoutouts. Had a 7-2 record in World Series competition. As one of the prime aces of the New York Yankee pitching staff he led them to 6 World Championships, making big contributions in each of those years. In 1952 he was 20-8 with a league leading 2.06 ERA, and led the league in strikeouts, and that year he was awarded the Hitchcock belt as the outstanding athlete in America. Not having him in the HOF is in my opinion a serious oversight.

Doc White-

Outstanding left hander pitcher, primarily for the Chicago White Sox, during the first 13 years of the 20th century. Won 189 games, including one 27 win season, and pitched 45 shutouts. In the 1906 World Series he saved game 5 and pitched a complete game win in game six to give the championship to the White Sox over one of the most renowned teams of all time-the Chicago Cubs who had won 116 games in the regular season. If you read about all time baseball you will frequently see his named mentioned by the old time players as being the toughest, or one of the toughest, left handed pitchers of his era.

"Smoky" Joe Wood-

Great right handed pitcher during the early years of the Boston Red Sox dynasty of the 1910's. Considered by some, including Walter Johnson, as the fastest pitcher who ever lived. In 1912 he had a 34-5 record with 10 shutouts, and topped it off by winning 3 games in the World Series, which is one of the contenders for greatest all around single season ever by a pitcher. Contributed to two world championship teams as a pitcher. His pitching career was truncated after a few outstanding years by a sore arm. However, he was such a good athlete he was able to later stage a comeback as an outfielder. He made it back to the major leagues, and had full seasons where he batted .296 and .297, and part of a year where he batted .366. As an outfielder he contributed to the Cleveland Indians winning the World Championship in 1920

c JRB

[538280]

I'll do something similar to what XX did, all these players are in order of how well qualified I think they are:

Players who should definitely be in the HOF IMO:

C: Joe Torre, Ted Simmons
1B: Dick Allen
2B: Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker
3B: Ron Santo
SS: Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
LF: Sherry Magee, Minnie Minoso
CF: Jimmy Wynn
RF: Dave Parker

SP: Bert Blyleven
RP: Goose Gossage

Players who should probably be in the HOF or have very strong cases IMO:

C: Gene Tenace, Bill Freehan, Elston Howard, Wally Schang
1B: Will Clark, Keith Hernandez, Norm Cash
2B: Willie Randolph, Joe Gordon, Cupid Childs
3B: Sal Bando, Heinie Groh, Darrell Evans, John Beckwith, Graig Nettles, Ken Boyer, Stan Hack
SS: Jim Fregosi, Dobie Moore, Tony Fernandez
LF: Frank Howard
CF: Cesar Cedeno, Fred Lynn, Dale Murphy, Wally Berger
RF: Bobby Bonds, Reggie Smith, Ken Singleton

SP: Wes Ferrell, Carl Mays, Billy Pierce, Tony Mullane, Tommy John, Lon Warneke, Don Newcombe
RP: John Franco, Lee Smith, John Hiller, Dan Quisenberry, John Wetteland

[rsuriyop]

I'd put these players in for sure:

C - Ted Simmons, Joe Torre
1B - Dick Allen
2B - Bobby Grich, Joe Gordon, Lou Whitaker
SS - Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Minnie Minoso, Albert Belle, Bob Johnson, Sherry Magee
CF - Dale Murphy
RF - Andre Dawson

SP - Bert Blyleven
RP - Goose Gossage

I also wouldn't have much of a problem with any of these players making it:

C - Bill Freehan, Wally Schang, Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Elston Howard
1B - Keith Hernandez, Will Clark, Norm Cash, Don Mattingly, Gil Hodges
2B - Willie Randolph, Buddy Myer, Larry Doyle, Del Pratt
SS - Vern Stephens, Cecil Travis, Maury Wills
3B - Ken Boyer, Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Bob Elliot, Lave Cross
LF - Frank Howard, Jim Rice, Bobby Veach
CF - Wally Berger, Jimmy Wynn, Fred Lynn, Cesar Cedeno, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson
RF - Dave Parker, Bobby Bonds, Tony Oliva, Dwight Evans

SP - Jim Kaat, Carl Mays, Luis Tiant, Tony Mullane, Tommy Bridges, Jack Morris, Tommy John, Billy Pierce

RP - Dan Quisenberry, Lee Smith, Tom Henke

Nice, well thought-out list. But as far as your shoo-ins go, I would also like to put Jimmy Ryan, Urban Shocker, and Wes Ferrell up there as well.

I'm also pretty much in agreement with your "wouldn't mid" list. But for me, Gavy Cravath, Steve Garvey, Lefty O'Doul, Joe Adcock, Rocky Colavito, Ken Williams, and Cy Williams would also make the cut.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Pete Rose.

[KCGHOST]

C - None
1B - None
2B - Lou Whitaker
SS - Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Minnie Minoso
CF - Pete Browning
RF - None

SP - Bert Blyleven, Tommy Bridges
RP - Goose Gossage

[ChrisLDuncan]

Joe Torre, Elston Howard, Thurman Munson (for sentimental reasons for me atleast), Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, Pete Rose, Joe Jackson, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitiaker, Lee Smith, and a few more I can't think of.

[hubkittel]

i've been thinking about this question of who i would put in and i can honestly say that their is no one player that i think has been treated unjustly, whose exclusion from the HoF is a travesty. i think you guys have come up with great lists (and i really like jrb's list with all the old cardinals on it) but i'm not going to lose any sleep if dick allen or joe torre or ron santo is left out of the hall. i just don't feel any passion over a specific player the way others do-i'm not going to be the guy who starts a "ted simmons for the HoF" campaign. if you put a gun to my head and forced me to pick one player to put in, i'd probably pick minnie minoso.

[Freakshow]

Well, yeah, it’s only the Hall of Fame, so I don’t lose any sleep over them either. But it’s fun to see where they’ve blown it. I tend to be generous, because given that they already have over 225 players enshrined, what’s a few more? The true greats really deserve a higher honor than the Hall can give them.

So I’ll start with a “First 40” listing. As a historical institution, the HOF has particularly fallen on its face with regards to recognizing the best of the 19th century, so I have more guys from antiquity than most lists you’ll see. Only currently eligible players are listed, in order of preference for each position. Bold marks players currently on the BBWAA ballot.

P—Bert Blyleven, Rich Gossage, Wes Ferrell, Tommy John
C— Joe Torre, Ted Simmons, Deacon White, Bill Freehan, Charlie Bennett
1B—Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez, Joe Start
2B—Bobby Grich, Joe Gordon, Lou Whitaker, Ross Barnes, Hardy Richardson
3B—Ron Santo, Darrell Evans, Stan Hack, Ken Boyer, John Beckwith, Heinie Groh
SS—Bill Dahlen, Alan Trammell, Homerun Johnson
LF—Minnie Minoso, Sherry Magee, Albert Belle, Harry Stovey, Pete Browning, Jimmy Sheckard
CF—Paul Hines, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, George Gore, Jimmy Wynn
RF—Dwight Evans, Bobby Bonds, Dave Parker

[UTforever22]

i think the person with the best argument to get into the hall is Tommy John. Before he became famous for his surgery, he was known for being one of the top left handed pitchers in his time, 288 wins, 3.34 era should be enough to get him in the hall

[candy curveball cummings]

i think the person with the best argument to get into the hall is Tommy John. Before he became famous for his surgery, he was known for being one of the top left handed pitchers in his time, 288 wins, 3.34 era should be enough to get him in the hall

You think he has a better case than Blyleven? I don't think I've ever heard that argument. I'd be interested to here your case for John over Blyleven.

[UTforever22]

i take that back, i just saw the john had fewer losses, but looking more closely you're right. I Think it's a shame both aren't in.

[hubkittel]

i have this theory that guys like john, bleylevn, and kaat (and rice, parker, murphy, etc) are blocking the door for a lot of other players. unless you put up the magic numbers or have a peak like pedro's, you're not getting into the HoF. i think the bbwaa has raised their bar when it comes to who they're going to elect. as far as the vetern's committe is concerned, the big ballot and only having an election every two years makes it difficult for them to elect anybody. we'll see what they do with this ballot. of course, this theory doesn't explain maz.