Luis Tiant?

[AG2004]

Sorry, I wasn't really paying attention writing that (post thirty). Edited.

And your edited version still has the same problem. According to your second answer, the following Hall of Famers are all better than Tiant: Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Don Sutton. Yet your first answer places Tiant at number five among his contemporaries, which means he should be better than at least four of those eight Hall of Famers. Those two answers still contradict each other.

So, in your opinion, which of those eight Hall of Famers were worse than Tiant? If they were all better than Tiant, then the best Tiant could be is number nine.

[The Kid]

who thinks luis belongs? He's got almost identical numbers to catfish hunter, and was one of the most exciting atheletes during th 70's.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would support Tiant. I would say, however, that Blyleven, Kaat, and John are ahead of him in line.

[leecemark]

--Maybe:confused: :crazy :lookitup . He wouldn't be the worst in, but he isn't the best not in either.

[rsuriyop]

who thinks luis belongs? He's got almost identical numbers to catfish hunter, and was one of the most exciting atheletes during th 70's.

He's one of those players who I wouldn't mind getting in or not. But I can certainly tell you that he was much better than Catfish Hunter.

[538280]

He's one of those players who I wouldn't mind getting in or not. But I can certainly tell you that he was much better than Catfish Hunter.

I agree with this completely.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I've not had a problem with Catfish Hunter as a HOFer, and Tiant is comparable. They're the same type of pitcher, control guys, who had arm troubles. If Hunter AND Drysdale are in, then why not Tiant? Of course, if Blyleven, John, and Kaat aren't in, then why Tiant?

I certainly rate Tiant ahead of Jack Morris.

[KCGHOST]

Tiant just doesn't measure up to me even though he had a better career than Catfish (to me a mistake). Too many guys who had better careers are in line ahead of him.

[Paolo]

He belongs for sure.

[STLCards2]

I have a total of 77 retired pitchers, Negro League pitchers and current pitchers who I have in my HOF status right now. Tiant is #69 out of the 77. Just at the bottom, but there. (Hunter is # 84, and I could easily see myself moving him down before up.)

[Yankwood]

Well, first of all, Luis Tiant was NOT superior to Catfish, which is evidenced by the fact that Hunter had 7 consecutive years of being one of the 3 or 4 best pitchers in the league. Let's remember that Koufax only had 6 and the most Tiant could come up with consecutively was 5. Previous to that he had 3 injury riddled seasons which was preceded by a great year. Catfish did it more consistently and consecutively. I think this also stays in voter's minds. I don't want to turn this into a Jim Hunter thread but I just wanted to say that making the statement that Tiant was superior is erroneous. Comparable, yes, to be fair but better-no.

[The Kid]

I don't want to turn this into a Jim Hunter thread but I just wanted to say that making the statement that Tiant was superior is erroneous. Comparable, yes, to be fair but better-no.[/QUOTE]

I never said Tiant was better. I just think he belongs.:clapping

[EvanAparra]

Well, first of all, Luis Tiant was NOT superior to Catfish, which is evidenced by the fact that Hunter had 7 consecutive years of being one of the 3 or 4 best pitchers in the league. Let's remember that Koufax only had 6 and the most Tiant could come up with consecutively was 5. Previous to that he had 3 injury riddled seasons which was preceded by a great year. Catfish did it more consistently and consecutively. I think this also stays in voter's minds. I don't want to turn this into a Jim Hunter thread but I just wanted to say that making the statement that Tiant was superior is erroneous. Comparable, yes, to be fair but better-no.

Yeah, Catfish was better than Koufax. :rolleyes:

[Dalkowski110]

I honestly don't like the "If-Catfish-Then-Luis" argument, but then again, I hate the "If-One-Then" argument, as Bill James terms it, and am full agreement with him about it. That said, I wouldn't mind Tiant in the Hall of Fame. He's not just better than one guy in the Hall, and certainly pitched to deserve it. That said, Jim Kaat, Bert Blyleven, and Tommy John are equally deserving of the Hall. Jack Morris is not.

[NewYork NewYork]

I think he has a good case, but I also think there are other guys not in who have had better careers than him.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Well, first of all, Luis Tiant was NOT superior to Catfish, which is evidenced by the fact that Hunter had 7 consecutive years of being one of the 3 or 4 best pitchers in the league. Let's remember that Koufax only had 6 and the most Tiant could come up with consecutively was 5. Previous to that he had 3 injury riddled seasons which was preceded by a great year. Catfish did it more consistently and consecutively. I think this also stays in voter's minds. I don't want to turn this into a Jim Hunter thread but I just wanted to say that making the statement that Tiant was superior is erroneous. Comparable, yes, to be fair but better-no.

Is it really more valuable to accomplish what you accomplish in consecutive seasons?

Tiant's career is far more truncated than Hunter's. On the other hand, Tiant pitched longer, while Hunter was done at 33.

[leecemark]

--I think there is some value in having a consecutive prime. It isn't required to get my support and it won't overcome a big difference in career accomplishments, but if two guys are close I'll favor the one who packed his big years together. Even moreso, a guy who has the same accomplishments in a shorter career trumps one who took longer to get there.

[dgarza]

Hunter is a borderline HOFer, and the main reason he makes it is the "Fame" aspect. Without that, Tiant vs. Hunter becomes not "If Hunter, then Tiant," but "If not Tiant, then not Hunter."

[Yankwood]

Is it really more valuable to accomplish what you accomplish in consecutive seasons?

Tiant's career is far more truncated than Hunter's. On the other hand, Tiant pitched longer, while Hunter was done at 33.My statement referred as much to the voters perception as anything. I think a player remains in fans and writers minds when they can do it consecutively. A boxing analogy would be 7 straight right hooks to the head does more damage than the same punches would do over a longer timespan. Plus the fact that Catfish had postseason exposure on his side. So, no, I didn't mean it as to say that Catfish was better than Koufax like someone else pointed out but these threads are a bit "Koufaxed" out by now.

[Sliding Billy]

Well, first of all, Luis Tiant was NOT superior to Catfish, which is evidenced by the fact that Hunter had 7 consecutive years of being one of the 3 or 4 best pitchers in the league. Let's remember that Koufax only had 6 and the most Tiant could come up with consecutively was 5. Previous to that he had 3 injury riddled seasons which was preceded by a great year. Catfish did it more consistently and consecutively. I think this also stays in voter's minds. I don't want to turn this into a Jim Hunter thread but I just wanted to say that making the statement that Tiant was superior is erroneous. Comparable, yes, to be fair but better-no.
Comparing their career totals and rate stats, they are very close, almost indiscernable, with perhaps a slight edge for Hunter. However, when you look at the context of their performance, Tiant clearly contributes far more to his teams' wins:

The league ERA during Hunter's run was 3.76, during Tiant's 3.39. Moreover, Hunter pitched for better teams in parks that favored pitchers more. Tiant finished in the top ten in park-adjusted ERA 7 times, twice leading the league, Hunter 3 times, leading the league once. Hunter's run as a premier pitcher was five consecutive years, rather than seven, as in the first and last his ERA was above league. Hunter was a fine pitcher whose won-lost record benefited from his playing on great teams. But Tiant was superior.

[The Kid]

Tiant had almost identical numbers to another HOFer, Don Drysdale

[AG2004]

After making a Keltner List for Tiant, I just don't see him as a Hall of Famer.

Case to Consider: TIANT, Luis

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He was Cleveland’s best pitcher in 1967 and 1968, and Boston’s best in 1972, 1974, and 1976, according to win shares.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

He never led AL pitchers in win shares, but he was second among major leaguer pitchers in 1974 and third in 1968.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Some. He had 19 win shares in 1972, but Boston lost the division by half a game. He also won the final scheduled regular-season game in 1978, setting up the playoff against the Yankees. Finally, he pitched a complete-game win against Oakland in the 1975 ALCS, and didn’t give up an earned run (Oakland’s sole run came due to two errors).

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Yes.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

By similarity scores: Catfish Hunter, Jim Bunning, Billy Pierce, Vida Blue, Mickey Lolich, Don Drysdale, Jim Perry, Kevin Brown, Hooks Dauss, Orel Hershiser. Three are in Cooperstown; two are in the BBFHOF.

Career win shares, contemporary pitchers: Jim Kaat 268, Juan Marichal 263, TIANT 256. Tiant is on the low side.

Win shares, peak three seasons: Tom Seaver 88, Jim Palmer 88, Phil Niekro 86, Catfish Hunter 80, TIANT 79, Vida Blue 77, Mickey Lolich 75, Bert Blyleven 75, Nolan Ryan 74, Jim Kaat 70, Don Sutton 69. Tiant is around the cut-off line.

Best five consecutive seasons: Phil Niekro 118, Catfish Hunter 117, Bert Blyleven 114, Steve Carlton 111, Mickey Lolich 111, TIANT 108, Nolan Ryan 102, Don Sutton 99. Again, Tiant is in the cut-off area, but he’s a little on the low side this time.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Tiant’s black ink score of 13 is 161st overall. That’s not very good. He’s 164th in gray ink at 115 points, which is even worse. However, his HOF Standards score of 41.0, which puts him at number 65 on that list, is borderline.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really. Fenway Park was a hitter’s park; however, he started in Cleveland during the 1960s, a pitcher’s era.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

No.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Tiant was fifth in the 1968 MVP voting. He finished fourth in the Cy Young voting in 1974, and fifth in 1976. He finished second among AL pitchers in win shares twice.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Tiant was in three All-Star games, which is low for a pitcher. Tiant was among the AL’s top five pitchers in win shares just three times, and was in a tie for seventh two other years. However, three All-Star-type seasons is still low for a pitcher.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

I doubt that a team could win a pennant if Tiant was its best pitcher; he was just too inconsistent.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not that I know of.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I can tell.

CONCLUSION: Tiant does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

[The Kid]

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really. Fenway Park was a hitter’s park; however, he started in Cleveland during the 1960s, a pitcher’s era.

Remember that he played most of his career in the 70's and had his best year in 1968

[The Kid]

Six reasons Luis should be in the hall:

1. Better winning % then: Rube Marquad, Don Drysdale, Fergie Jenkins, Pud Galvin, Eppa Rixey, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Burlieg Grimes, Red Faber; all HOFers

2. Lower ERA then:

Lefty Gomez, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Ted Lyons, Phil Niekro, Herb Hennock, Robin Roberts, Red Ruffing, Early Wynn; all HOFers

3. Won twenty games three times in eight years

4. 49 shutouts

5. Incredible 1975 World Series

6. Four striaght shutouts in 1968

Loo-e, Loo-e, Loo-e!

[AG2004]

Six reasons Luis should be in the hall:

1. Better winning % then: Rube Marquad, Don Drysdale, Fergie Jenkins, Pud Galvin, Eppa Rixey, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Burlieg Grimes, Red Faber; all HOFers

2. Lower ERA then:

Lefty Gomez, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Ted Lyons, Phil Niekro, Herb Pennock, Robin Roberts, Red Ruffing, Early Wynn; all HOFers

3. Won twenty games three times in eight years



So far, we haven't ruled out Deacon Phillippe, who had a better winning % than Luis Tiant, a better ERA+ than Luis Tiant, and who won twenty games six times in seven years. Hippo Vaughn has a better winning % and a better ERA+ than Tiant; he also won twenty games five times in six years. Lon Warneke does better than Tiant in winning % and ERA+. Warneke won twenty games three times, but he managed to do it in four years. So far, we haven't seen what's special about Tiant.

That eight-year period for Tiant also includes a stint in the minors, by the way.


4. 49 shutouts


Well, Bert Blyleven has 60 shutouts, and he's not in the Hall of Fame. Blyleven's ninth in shutouts; he's the only pitcher in the top twenty who's not in Cooperstown, and he's the only pitcher with at least 50 shutouts who's not in Cooperstown.

But 49 shutouts isn't that far ahead of a lot of other pitchers who aren't in Cooperstown. Jack Powell has 46, Doc White 45, Babe Adams 44, Milt Pappas 43, Bucky Walters 42, and Hippo Vaughn 41.


5. Incredible 1975 World Series


3 games, 2-0 with a 3.60 ERA.

Hippo Vaughn did an incredible job on the mound in the 1918 World Series, pitching three complete games with a 1.00 ERA. He went 1-2, but that's because the Cubs' batting was lousy; the two losses were by scores of 1-0 and 2-1. Lon Warneke went 2-0 in the 1935 Series with a 0.53 ERA.

Babe Adams went 3-0 with a 1.33 ERA and one shutout in the 1909 World Series. It's a shame he only had the two 20-win seasons, or he'd be right up there with Tiant, as he also went down to the minors in mid-career.

So far, we don't have a lot to separate Tiant from a lot of people who aren't in the Hall of Fame.


6. Four striaght shutouts in 1968

Loo-e, Loo-e, Loo-e!

Doc White threw five straight shutouts in 1904. Sometimes you get lucky.

Keepthefaith, I have several questions that I'd like to see you answer.

1) Among his contemporaries, where do you rank Tiant?

2) How many pitchers in Cooperstown were worse than Tiant? Who were they? Are those pitchers regarded as mistakes?

3) How many pitchers who meet the Hall of Fame's eligibility requirements, but are not yet in, are better than Tiant? Who are they?

4) Is there any method you like to use to help determine whether someone ought to be a Hall of Famer? If so, what is it?

[yanks0714]

Six reasons Luis should be in the hall:

1. Better winning % then: Rube Marquad, Don Drysdale, Fergie Jenkins, Pud Galvin, Eppa Rixey, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Burlieg Grimes, Red Faber; all HOFers

2. Lower ERA then:

Lefty Gomez, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Ted Lyons, Phil Niekro, Herb Hennock, Robin Roberts, Red Ruffing, Early Wynn; all HOFers

3. Won twenty games three times in eight years

4. 49 shutouts

5. Incredible 1975 World Series

6. Four striaght shutouts in 1968

Loo-e, Loo-e, Loo-e!

Methinks AG2004 crushed this argument for Tiant.

[thekid9]

Let's put him in!!!!

[AlecBoy006]

El Tiante for Cooperstown!

[The Kid]

Methinks AG2004 crushed this argument for Tiant.

Youthinks wrong.

To answer your questions, AG2004:

1. I rank Tiant #5 among starting pitchers in the 70's.

2. Catfish Hunter, Chief Bender, Don Drysdale, Lefty Gomez, Bob Lemon, and Rube Marquad. Only Marquad is a mistake in my opinion.

3. None

4. There is no certian way I determine whether a guy should be in the hall or not, although I do always say that stats are not enough to get you in the hall, a player has to be able to hit or pitch in the clutch like Tiant who was always a very clutch pitcher.

[AG2004]

Youthinks wrong.

To answer your questions, AG2004:

1. I rank Tiant #1 among starting pitchers in the 70's.

2. Catfish Hunter, Chief Bender, Don Drysdale, Lefty Gomez, Bob Lemon, and Rube Marquad. Only Marquad is a mistake in my opinion.

3. Jim Kaat and Tommy John



I see a big problem with your answers when taken in combination.

According to answer number two, you consider Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Don Sutton - all Hall of Famers - to be better pitchers than Tiant.

According to answer number three, you consider Jim Kaat and Tommy John to be better than Tiant.

This means Tiant would be, at best, the eleventh best pitcher of his generation. Yet, according to answer number one, you rank Tiant as number one.

How do you manage to reconcile these three answers? More to the point, how does Tiant manage to leap over those ten pitchers and become number one?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I go back and forth on Tiant.

Basically, my position on Tiant is that he's Hall-worthy, in that a number of pitchers with Tiant's credentials or less are in the HOF:

Rube Marquard
Jesse Haines
Rube Waddell
Herb Pennock
Waite Hoyt
Vic Willis
Dazzy Vance
Lefty Gomez
Eppa Rixey
Jack Chesbro

He's about even with Hunter and Drysdale.

That he's not first in line doesn't mean that he shouldn't get in.

[The Kid]

Sorry, I wasn't really paying attention writing that (post thirty). Edited.

[yanks0714]

Youthinks wrong.

To answer your questions, AG2004:

1. I rank Tiant #5 among starting pitchers in the 70's.

2. Catfish Hunter, Chief Bender, Don Drysdale, Lefty Gomez, Bob Lemon, and Rube Marquad. Only Marquad is a mistake in my opinion.

3. None

4. There is no certian way I determine whether a guy should be in the hall or not, although I do always say that stats are not enough to get you in the hall, a player has to be able to hit or pitch in the clutch like Tiant who was always a very clutch pitcher.

Methinks AG2004 done crushed your argument twice now. Give it up.

[AG2004]

Sorry, I wasn't really paying attention writing that (post thirty). Edited.

And your edited version still has the same problem. According to your second answer, the following Hall of Famers are all better than Tiant: Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Don Sutton. Yet your first answer places Tiant at number five among his contemporaries, which means he should be better than at least four of those eight Hall of Famers. Those two answers still contradict each other.

So, in your opinion, which of those eight Hall of Famers were worse than Tiant? If they were all better than Tiant, then the best Tiant could be is number nine, as opposed to number 5.

[The Kid]

Your two answers contridict each other

That's why I edited it. My first answer means nothing now that I've edited it. Now that you've mentioned lefty, I consider Tiant number 6 ahead of Sutton, Jenkins, Perry.

[mwiggins]

That's why I edited it. My first answer means nothing now that I've edited it. Now that you've mentioned lefty, I consider Tiant number 6 ahead of Sutton, Jenkins, Perry.

Where do you get Tiant over Jenkins?!?!

They're about the same in career ERA+ - 115 for Jenkins vs. 114 for Tiant - but Fergie has over 1,000 more IP than Tiant. Tiant has zero Cy Youngs, and two top five finishes. Fergie has 1 Cy Young, and 5 top-5 finishes. Tiant has 4 20-win seasons, Fergie has 7.

The only real argument that you could have for Tiant over Jenkins is "I'm a Red Sox fan". Whether you want to go by stats, or by how they were viewed by their peers, Jenkins wins handily.

[The Kid]

You forget Tiant had a better winning percentage, less loses, and was more of a clutch pitcher than Tiant.

[mwiggins]

You forget Tiant had a better winning percentage, less loses, and was more of a clutch pitcher than Tiant.

Jenkins played on worse teams for much of his career. Tiant's better winning % was not because he was a better pitchers. The teams Tiant pitched for had a 54% winning % over his career. The teams Jenkins pitched for had a 50% winning % over his career. Jenkins winning % is actually better than Tiants when you factor in how good the teams they pitched for where.

And Jenkins has more losses because he pitched 1,000 more innings. He pitched 29% more innings than Tiant, and has 31% more losses.

How do you know he was more 'clutch' than Jenkins? I'm not saying he's not, but you haven't said why he's more clutch than Jenkins. With runners in scoring position, Tiant allowed opposing hitters to hit .238 off him, with a slugging % of .368. While Jenkins allowed opposing hitters to hit .233 off him, with a slugging % of .364. So the numbers would say they were pretty much just as effective in clutch situations in games.

[The Kid]

Hey, Jenkins played for the Sox a couple of years and was liked there, too.

[yankillaz]

I've not had a problem with Catfish Hunter as a HOFer, and Tiant is comparable. They're the same type of pitcher, control guys, who had arm troubles. If Hunter AND Drysdale are in, then why not Tiant? Of course, if Blyleven, John, and Kaat aren't in, then why Tiant?

I certainly rate Tiant ahead of Jack Morris.

In the list of HOF'ers from the 60's-70's-80's not in the Hall, i put Tiant in third place, just after Blyleven and Morris. Tiant was a great pitcher on a crappy Indians team, and then in the Boston Red Sox. He was very dominant.

I think my top 10 of Non-Hof'ers for the period should be:

1. Blyleven
2. Morris
3. Tiant
4. Kaat
5. Blue
6. Lolich
7. John
8. Koosman
9. Stieb
10. Tanana

The thing I have against both Kaat and John is that their HOF chances weight heavily in longevity. Although Kaat's got the GG awards, i don't think that their career as a whole drew HOF standards.

[PVNICK]

In looking at PRAA and PRAR numbers Tiant is on a par with Blyleven

adjusted by season PRAA 256 for Tiant 268 Blyleven PRAR 703 for Tiant and 895 for Blyleven
adjusted for all-time PRAA 184 for Tiant 172 Blyleven PRAR 630 Tiant 799 Blyleven

Blyleven's did this in almost half again as many innings but unless someone sheds some light for me these are counting numbers, per se, so unlike ERA+ where Blyleven leads 118 to 114 its not a point in one's favor to be roughly equal in more innings.


If you run the numbers with Hunter, Kaat, Sutton or John Tiant crushes them in PRAA and PRAR. I think he is a lot closer than I would have otherwise thought (unless of course PRAA and PRAR are unreliable in which case my bad).

[Brad Harris]

Great pitcher. Just too many guys ahead of him in line. I can't see it. Him being better than some of the bottom 20 percent of starting pitchers in the Hall doesn't justify electing someone that would further increase the number of pitchers in that echelon. In other words, Tiant might be one of the top 120 pitchers or so in major league history, but that's roughly double the number in the Hall and I'm not prepared to jump that far down the list, regardless of previous mistakes.

[PVNICK]

That's the problem with him. I happened to say yes, as bizarre as it may sound, a pitcher like Tiant should be in a Hall of Fame. But as you point out there's just too many other pitchers of which that can be said. That's the drawback of coming along after a century of history rather than a few decades.

[SABR Matt]

I can't believe this poll is close! What are the naysaysers THINKING here...Tiant is a slam dunk for the hall. It should not be a tough call.

[Paul Wendt]

In other words, Tiant might be one of the top 120 pitchers or so in major league history, but that's roughly double the number in the Hall and I'm not prepared to jump that far down the list, regardless of previous mistakes.
120?
That suggests to me no better than rank 100 among the major league pitchers now eligible for Cooperstown.

The Hall of Merit evidently ranks him about 60 among eligible pitchers from the major leagues, although he is not a member. There are 63 pitcher members --compare 72 or so in Cooperstown-- including 8 from the Negro Leagues, hence 55 from the majors (1871-2004). Tiant is the second-ranking mlb pitcher in the backlog, the runners up in the 2009 election.

There are 71 pitchers in the BBF HOF including 58 from the major leagues. Tiant is not one of them and did not get any votes in the 2009 election but I feel sure that that group ranks him in the top 80.

In the "Top 100 Pitchers" project here last year, we put him high in tier five, corrresponding to ranks 81 to 100. Call it rank 85 among all pitchers, perhaps about 70 among eligible major leaguers.

P.S.
Tiant is number 62 at
"The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History: Ranking and stats updated through 2007 Season" by STLCards2 (see signature below)

[STLCards2]

I can't believe this poll is close! What are the naysaysers THINKING here...Tiant is a slam dunk for the hall. It should not be a tough call.

You are correct sir - and it is great to have you "back" on this forumn - hope you stick around!

[Cougar]

I concur with the last few posters. Among eligible right handed starting pitchers not already enshrined, only Bert Blyleven has a better case than Luis Tiant.

[brett]

I can't believe this poll is close! What are the naysaysers THINKING here...Tiant is a slam dunk for the hall. It should not be a tough call.

I need this explained a little. He has about 3400 IP and 114 ERA+. He had a run of about 2900 IP with a 119 ERA+.

There are a lot of guys with 2600-3500 IP and 110-120 ERA+.

How does he stand out from this crowd, or do all these guys merit the hall?

Hershizer
Steib
Key
Guidry
Viola
Saberhagen
Appier
Gooden
Reulbach
Vaughn
Cone
Mays
others?

At least he looks like 1/2 step down from Mussina/Schilling/Brown/Smoltz who I think all had hall of fame careers, but that next tier is pretty large.

[Cougar]

Great pitcher. Just too many guys ahead of him in line. I can't see it. Him being better than some of the bottom 20 percent of starting pitchers in the Hall doesn't justify electing someone that would further increase the number of pitchers in that echelon. In other words, Tiant might be one of the top 120 pitchers or so in major league history, but that's roughly double the number in the Hall and I'm not prepared to jump that far down the list, regardless of previous mistakes.

Who's ahead of him, among eligibles?

I have Bert Blyleven, as mentioned above. Maybe Carl Mays, among righties...maybe. Then who? Wes Ferrell? It can't be the much maligned Jack Morris, can it?

Lefties: I'd take John, Kaat, and Guidry. After that? Pierce? Lolich? I'm stretching.

That's not a real long line.

Throw relievers into the mix: Maybe you like Quisenberry, or Lee Smith? I dunno.

I'm not really trying to give you a hard time...I'm just asking.

[Cougar]

I need this explained a little. He has about 3400 IP and 114 ERA+. He had a run of about 2900 IP with a 119 ERA+.

There are a lot of guys with 2600-3500 IP and 110-120 ERA+.

How does he stand out from this crowd, or do all these guys merit the hall?

Hershizer
Steib
Key
Guidry
Viola
Saberhagen
Appier
Gooden
Reulbach
Vaughn
Cone
Mays
others?

At least he looks like 1/2 step down from Mussina/Schilling/Brown/Smoltz who I think all had hall of fame careers, but that next tier is pretty large.

He is a half step down from those guys (well, maybe not Brown, who I just can't stand).

But the other guys you mention...off the top of my head: more wins, more K's, more big seasons, in most cases.

I've said already I like Guidry better than Tiant, and I think Carl Mays is really close.

I've got Orel, Cone, Doc, and Sabes in a cluster that's just behind Tiant; maybe another half step.

[SABR Matt]

His DNRA+ is in the same neighborhood as Tom Glavine...who got a massive consensus yes vote from this same crowd.
Year Lg Team Outs DNRA+ Marker
1964 AL CLE 388 143 6.67
1965 AL CLE 593 114 4.81
1966 AL CLE 466 124 5.10
1967 AL CLE 651 119 5.94
1968 AL CLE 772 157 13.97
1969 AL CLE 746 86 -0.03
1970 AL MIN 275 87 0.09
1971 AL BOS 226 92 0.40
1972 AL BOS 538 163 10.61
1973 AL BOS 803 116 7.49
1974 AL BOS 939 127 11.73
1975 AL BOS 780 103 4.13
1976 AL BOS 840 110 5.97
1977 AL BOS 568 94 1.44
1978 AL BOS 639 119 6.42
1979 AL NYA 583 103 3.33
1980 AL NYA 410 97 1.42
1981 NL PIT 175 121 1.76
1982 AL CAL 86 72 -0.40

His career DNRA+ is 114. And his career is not that much shorter than Glavines...I don't get the disconnect here.

[STLCards2]

Of the people mentioned today, I got...

HOF
Blyleven
Schilling
Mussina
Glavine
Smoltz
Brown
Sutton
Ferrell
Tiant
Pierce
John


Saberhagen
Stieb
Quizenberry
L.Smith
Mays

Cone
Kaat
Appier
Vaughan

Hershiser
Guidry
Reulbach
Key
Gooden
Viola
Lolich
Morris

...for what it is worth

[STLCards2]

His DNRA+ is in the same neighborhood as Tom Glavine...who got a massive consensus yes vote from this same crowd.
Year Lg Team Outs DNRA+ Marker
1964 AL CLE 388 143 6.67
1965 AL CLE 593 114 4.81
1966 AL CLE 466 124 5.10
1967 AL CLE 651 119 5.94
1968 AL CLE 772 157 13.97
1969 AL CLE 746 86 -0.03
1970 AL MIN 275 87 0.09
1971 AL BOS 226 92 0.40
1972 AL BOS 538 163 10.61
1973 AL BOS 803 116 7.49
1974 AL BOS 939 127 11.73
1975 AL BOS 780 103 4.13
1976 AL BOS 840 110 5.97
1977 AL BOS 568 94 1.44
1978 AL BOS 639 119 6.42
1979 AL NYA 583 103 3.33
1980 AL NYA 410 97 1.42
1981 NL PIT 175 121 1.76
1982 AL CAL 86 72 -0.40

His career DNRA+ is 114. And his career is not that much shorter than Glavines...I don't get the disconnect here.


A 1,000 innings difference is pretty significant. Glavine also picks up some offenseive bonus that Tiant may not - don't know much about his offense.

Add up 1,000 IP (in a tougher era to accumulate innings), a 1-2 point DNRA+ advantage, and more offense, and it isn't neck-and neck, even though tiant is closer than most would think.

[SABR Matt]

I wouldn't have classified it as neck and neck...I would, however, have classified Glavine as a good example to prove Tiant's HOF merit.

[STLCards2]

I wouldn't have classified it as neck and neck...I would, however, have classified Glavine as a good example to prove Tiant's HOF merit.

Lets add offense into DNRA+...

If Glavine at 4,400 IP and a 117 accumulative DNRA+ is an easy HOFer in most eyes, than Tiant at 3,500 IP and 114 ERA+ should be a HOFer too, yes.

[SABR Matt]

Right...that's my only point, really. It's not like I'm saying Tiant is on the same level as Mussina (far from it)...I'm saying it's not like he was some barely above average schmoe who didn't have HOF peak seasons. He didn't run 15 years of 110 DNRA+...he had several dominant seasons and a lot of good solid ones mixed together.

[Los Bravos]

Obviously worthy, and that's from my (generally) traditionalist point of view.