Video lesson 2 arm action

[jbooth]

Ohfer discovered something that I agree with. I know, wonders never cease to exist.:D

The video below is 5.6meg

The first demo (pipe pops up) is how you can really accelerate the bathead and it is how Giambi, and A-rod, and Manny and some others do it. The second demo where the pipe lays flat is more typical and works, but not as good as the first.

Notice the hands stay back near the shoulder, and the 90 degree forearm to bat angle is kept until late. The difference is in how the 90 degree angle is released.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/forearms.mpg

[Jake Patterson]

Jim, can you put both side by side?

[MSandman]

http://members.cox.net/dsanda/JB%20arm%20action.gif

I'm not sure I see much difference in the movements other than (1) where the pipe sits against the lead elbow... in the one on the left, you start the pipe slightly above the forearm's "equator"; in the one on the right, you start it below. It would seem to me that would have an effect on which way it ends up? (2) I'm not so sure you drop your hands much more/earlier in the one on the right than the one on the left; rather, it simply looks like on the right, after you come back from the counter-rotation, your hands are more "behind" your rear shoulder tip (towards catcher), whereas in the one on the left, your hands are "in front of" your shoulder tip (3) much more counter-rotation to start the swing on the right.

In conclusion, I agree that keeping the hands a little more "in front of" the rear shoulder tip would produce a tighter/quicker swing radius. However, I'm NOT convinced that the pipe device and how it moves is necessarily relevant.

Now you can tell me how A.D.D. I am again Jim and how I need to see the forest for the trees, etc. - IOW, I'm an idiot if I don't agree w/ everything you say/show/do. :p

[chan7718]

Is just me?? Doesn't this look like it would promote swinging down at the ball, something I thought not desirable?? It sure looks like the bat path in the "pop up" clip is trending down. I thought we didn't want all those hard it ground balls.

[MSandman]

Yes Chan, the bat path IS down, but that's probably more due to an upright posture.

Again, IMO, another example of why we're probably better off trying to make our points using MLB clips. Of course, in this case, I think Jim's trying to make a point w/ his pipe thingy. :dance

[swingbuster]

Ohfer discovered something

yes...the secret to hitting

[jbooth]

Now you can tell me how A.D.D. I am again Jim and how I need to see the forest for the trees, etc. - IOW, I'm an idiot if I don't agree w/ everything you say/show/do. :p

Well, you DID miss the point. You were supposed to note the subtle difference in how the hands manipulate the bat, just before contact. The hands act differently to make the pipe pop up, than they do when it stays down. It is subtle but makes a huge difference in accelerating the bathead.

You must not have paid attention to this statement that I wrote;

Notice the hands stay back near the shoulder, and the 90 degree forearm to bat angle is kept until late. The difference is in how the 90 degree angle is released.

Now, watch your side-by-side that I modified, and just note how the rear elbow moves differently and how the hands move differently. The movement that makes the pipe stick up is a huge deal;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/jbarmaction2.gif

You wanted MLB instead of me. Here is an .mpg (6.3meg) note Giambi's back elbow and note his hand movement is the same as mine in the clip where the pipe pops up; the back of his bottom hand rolls over toward the pitcher. If he swung my "L" pipe the "L" would pop up.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/yanks-bosox820.mpg

The reason I prefer using myself as a model is; I can control the particular element I'm focusing on (if you can focus :) just kidding). The MLB clips are not always the player's optimum swing, nor one that can show the topic well.

[jbooth]

Is just me?? Doesn't this look like it would promote swinging down at the ball, something I thought not desirable?? It sure looks like the bat path in the "pop up" clip is trending down. I thought we didn't want all those hard it ground balls.

No, it isn't DOWN. The bathead releases later, and accelerates faster. The contact position and plane at contact are the same. Focus on just the wrist/hand area and figure out what is making the pipe pop up in one swing and not in the other. THAT is the topic.

[MSandman]

Thanks for taking the time to further clarify Jim.

I guess the concern I have w/ this is that there are so many other differences in the variables between these 2 swings that I am not yet convinced (and I truly do mean "yet", as in "but I'm still open to further convincing ;)) that the one movement you point out is the sole contributor. Not saying that it's not, but I'd just like to see 2 swings where there was more similarity except for just the "hand twisting".

I'm not nit picking these differences in search of the perfect swing either. I'm just saying, from a "scientific experiment" point of view, where you're trying to prove cause/effect, I would think more variables would need to be consistent between the test cases.

For example:
1. Start w/ same amount of counter-rotation.
2. Place hands in same relation to rear shoulder tip - height, depth (towards catcher).
3. Amount of hip rotation (tho I'm not sure the lower body really would have much effect?).
4. From WHERE you release the 90-degree bat:forearm angle. It looks to me like much of the difference between when the angle is "lost" is a product of the counter-rotation (on the right in the original side-by-side and the bottom of the still below) and where you end up starting your hands and bat:forearm angle due to it.

These are 2 frames from the original side-by-side, but the one on the top is your START position repeated and on the bottom are 2 frames from the same swing - 1 at the start and then another well into your swing. So if the STARTING POSTIONS of the shoulders and the BODY MOVEMENTS of the 2 swings both were the same except for just the hand action, then the 2 frames below would both be x number of frames into your swing. And as you can see, by this point, there's a big difference already.

http://members.cox.net/dsanda/JB%20-%20arm%20action.jpg

FWIW, I really do like the swing that starts from the frame on top and that's what I've been trying to get Kevin to do - "Just turn like you want to keep your hands in a barrel w/ your torso... Let your hands just be pulled away from there by the force of the turning body". I really do want to spend a little time and try to superimpose a see-through barrel over a hitter to highlight this point. (Side note: Jim, I know you're a physics guy, is that "centripetal" or "centrigual" force or something else?).

If you were to add/keep some posture to this swing, it would be a good model for what I'm trying to get him to envision. Again, I'm not saying that to pick your swing apart, as I do realize that you're not trying to demo a perfect swing (but a subset to key on). I sincerely mean that "there's a lot of good for a young hitter to see in the hand position to strive to maintain (in relation to shoulder) during the swing.

Again, thanks for continuing the dialog.

[Chameleon]

If he's trying to do something different in one swing why would you expect both swings to be alike.

Seems to me the reason for doing something different in one swing is to make it different.........not the same.

[jbooth]

If you were to add/keep some posture to this swing, it would be a good model for what I'm trying to get him to envision. Again, I'm not saying that to pick your swing apart, as I do realize that you're not trying to demo a perfect swing (but a subset to key on). I sincerely mean that "there's a lot of good for a young hitter to see in the hand position to strive to maintain (in relation to shoulder) during the swing.

Again, thanks for continuing the dialog.

Here is a clip of Giambi that I marked up. Basically, the bat is twisted like a pole you are trying to screw into something. As this pronation/supination twists the bat, the back elbow comes into the side. It doesn't really "drop" into the side, the supination of the top hand moves it in, in a twisting motion, as the shoulders tilt and turn.

Then as the bat naturally begins to unhinge, the hands twist again, which adds force to the unhinging momentum.

You were right, that in my demo swing, I left out the first part.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/giambiforearms2.gif

Note how his hands move with his shoulder. He got fooled on this change-up and he stopped the shoulder rotation and let his hands get away. In the other clip I posted with his HR swing, the swing started exactly like this one, but he continued the shoulder rotation and kept the hands back and he kept the hands moving around his body. Rather than away as he did here, to try and slow down and reach out to get the change-up.

[tom.guerry]

Excellent stuff here, Thanks Jim and Mike -

The giambi type is also what Hank Aaron (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01)does because HAnk (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01) is bellied up and has a choke grip where hands do not migrate on handle during the swing. This makes "turning the knob" (before launch) easy becasue the forearms are lined up, not at a narrow angle, but makes it hard not to wobble the bat/keep the bathead from jumping through contact if the grip doesn't slip.

Aaron (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01)keeps bat from wobblingthrough contact by upright axis and rocking shoulders and distinct head action. No grip slip. Try it yourself.Emulate Hank (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01). Feels good when you do it his way.

Trying to do this and not understanding the sequence of things can rapidly devolve into a wrist rolling flaw, however, where the lead arm chicken wings and disconnects and the bathead wobbles and tops everything.

It can be particularly tricky to learn to twist/supinate the front forearm (which is what gets the back of the lead hand facing the pitcher) WITHOUT letting the front elbow drop out of the swing plane.

If ,on the other hand you learn via the Lau type flat palms/palms up/down/top hand release after contact, you will learn to prolong the twist/supination of the back forearm, get rotational extension of the lead arm and keep the lead palm flat through contact. Not the same look at all through contact.

This works well with the more off the plate type Lau swing where there is more "rotational extension" before contact (more arm extension prior to conatct without disconnecting).

Yet a third approach is to to have a short/bellyup style and let the grip migrate on approach to contact.

In any case, arm action is somewhat kingly I would say.

[Ursa Major]

Jim, allow me to step into my role as a surrogate for all the semi-knowledgeable youth baseball coaches and ask what might be a slightly ignorant question. You make the comparison between a hitter who supinates his top hand, and one who simply releases it. Is there a third option that might be more common among youth hitters -- that is, just "snapping the wrists into the swing without the torque? It may be difficult to distinguish the two types of wrist actions, because if the bat approaches the hitting area while the top hand is bent back, it's almost impossible to "snap" the wrist without torquing them.

Any sense of how much extra power this is likely to give to a hitter? Is it worth it when compared to the accuracy benefits of trying to keep your hands "in plane"?

[jbooth]

Jim, allow me to step into my role as a surrogate for all the semi-knowledgeable youth baseball coaches and ask what might be a slightly ignorant question. You make the comparison between a hitter who supinates his top hand, and one who simply releases it. Is there a third option that might be more common among youth hitters -- that is, just "snapping the wrists into the swing without the torque? It may be difficult to distinguish the two types of wrist actions, because if the bat approaches the hitting area while the top hand is bent back, it's almost impossible to "snap" the wrist without torquing them.

Any sense of how much extra power this is likely to give to a hitter? Is it worth it when compared to the accuracy benefits of trying to keep your hands "in plane"?

Twisting is one method, but not the only one, and Tom Guerry is correct, and I partly came to this discovery watching Hank Aaron's swing and his grip. His grip forces him to twist the bottom hand. That twisting really creates a "snap" that throws the bathead into the ball.

It can also be effective with a "normal" grip, and no early twist. You set your hands so that prior to any hand movement, (stance position), your top palm is set facing the pitcher, (or wrist bent back). Now, swing and keep it bent. Keep the bathead lagging back (Epstein def) and as the hands unhinge, you will notice a stronger position from which you can "punch" the palm into the ball, or throw the bathead into the ball It is NOT a punching motion that extends the elbow. The elbow extension occurs after the wrist "snap" and ball contact.