Veteran's Committee Ballot

[soberdennis]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...rtnered=rss_mlb
Who would you vote for. Mychoices are Hodges, Williams, and Paul.

[Captain Cold Nose]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...rtnered=rss_mlb
Who would you vote for. Mychoices are Hodges, Williams, and Paul.
The link does not seem to work, the article must have been removed.

[soberdennis]

I don't know why but I'm having trouble too with the link. I will paste the article here instead.
Hall reveals 2007 Vets ballot
Torre, Hodges among 27 players eligible for induction
By Jack O'Connell / MLB.com




Nine former Most Valuable Player Award winners are among the 27 players who will appear on the 2007 Veterans Committee ballot that was announced Thursday by the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. In addition, 15 former managers, umpires and executives were named on a separate ballot that is part of the Veterans Committee election of Hall of Famers, Ford C. Frick winners for broadcasters and J.G. Taylor Spink Award winners for writers.
Both ballots will be mailed to the 84 voting members in January, with the results to be announced Feb. 27 in Tampa, Fla. As in the Baseball Writers' Association of America voting, the results of which will be revealed Jan. 9, 2007 in New York City, a candidate must appear on 75 percent of ballots cast to gain election and be inducted at ceremonies July 29, 2007 at the Clark Sports Center in Cooperstown, N.Y.

Along with two-time American League MVP Roger Maris, who won in 1960 and '61, other former MVPs from that league on the ballot are Joe Gordon (1942), Dick Allen (1972) and Thurman Munson (1976). NL MVPs on the ballot are Marty Marion (1944), Don Newcombe (1956), Maury Wills (1962), Ken Boyer (1964) and Joe Torre (1971). Newcombe also won the first Cy Young Award in '56. Another Cy Young Award winner, Sparky Lyle (AL, 1977) is on the ballot.

Former Dodgers first baseman Gil Hodges and Cubs third baseman Ron Santo, who tied for the most votes in the 2005 Veterans Committee election with 52 each (65 percent), are on the ballot for the third time. Hodges was also the leading vote-getter in 2003, the first year of the revised process, with 50 votes (61.7 percent).

The Veterans Committee elections are every other year for players and every four years for the composite ballot. Former umpire Doug Harvey was the leading vote-getter on the 2003 ballot with 48 votes (60.8 percent). The 2007 ballot contains the same 15 names that were on it four years ago -- former managers Whitey Herzog, Billy Martin, Paul Richards and Dick Williams; former owners August Busch, Charles O. Finley, Walter O'Malley and Phil Wrigley; former general managers Buzzie Bavasi, Gabe Paul and Harry Dalton; former commissioner Bowie Kuhn, former NL president Bill White, former Major League Players Association executive director Marvin Miller and Harvey.

The players' ballot includes former pitchers Carl Mays (five-time 20-game winner), Luis Tiant (two-time ERA leader), Mickey Lolich (1968 World Series MVP), Jim Kaat (283 victories, 16 Gold Gloves) and Wes Ferrell (.601 winning percentage and slugger of 37 home runs); first basemen Al Oliver (.303 career hitter with 2,743 hits) and Mickey Vernon (two batting titles); outfielders Bobby Bonds (five 30-30 seasons in homers and stolen bases), Tony Oliva (three batting titles), Lefty O'Doul (two batting crowns), Vada Pinson (four 200-hit seasons), Rocky Colavito (home run and RBI leader), Minnie Minoso (three-time steals leader) and Curt Flood (seven-time Gold Glove winner) and shortstop Cecil Travis (.314 career average).

Oliver, O'Doul, Travis and Vernon are newcomers to the ballot. There were 25 players on the 2005 ballot, two of which (Elston Howard and Smokey Joe Wood) did not make it this year.

Candidates were selected by a BBWAA-appointed screening committee of 60 writers, two from each of the 22 Major League cities with one team, and four from Chicago, New York, Los Angeles/Anaheim and the Bay Area, each of which has two Major League teams. Each writer was asked to select 25 individuals from a list of 200 players and 60 managers, umpires and executives. Simultaneously, a six-member screening committee of Hall of Fame members selected five players, two of whom were not selected by the BBWAA Screening Committee and were integrated into the final list.

The list of 200 players and 60 managers, umpires and executives were chosen by the Historical Overview Committee, which consists of 10 writers and historians appointed by the BBWAA's secretary-treasurer and meets every other December in the Giamatti Research Center at the Hall of Fame. The original list contained more than 1,400 Major Leaguers who played in at least 10 seasons, up to and including 1985.

Jack O'Connell is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

rticle here instead.

[KCGHOST]

The new VC which permits the current HoF players to vote has virtually eliminated the possibility that they will select anyone.

I can go for Santo, but that is about it. I am somewhat of a Neanderthal about electing anything but players.

[Captain Cold Nose]

The new VC which permits the current HoF players to vote has virtually eliminated the possibility that they will select anyone.

I can go for Santo, but that is about it. I am somewhat of a Neanderthal about electing anything but players.
Some players did experience double-digit jumps in vioter percentage the last time around. That is a bit encouraging.
With that high of a vote, I do expect Santo or Hodges or even both. I doubt a contributor will get in.

[RuthMayBond]

I don't know why but I'm having trouble too with the link. I will paste the article here instead.
Hall reveals 2007 Vets ballot
Torre, Hodges among 27 players eligible for induction
By Jack O'Connell / MLB.com


Dick Allen (1972)I wouldn't mind seeing him go in

<Joe Torre (1971).>

At least as a combined player/manager

<Cubs third baseman Ron Santo>

no problem

<Lefty O'Doul (two batting crowns)>

If you include his work in Japan

<Minnie Minoso (three-time steals leader)>

if you include his Negro League time

<and Curt Flood (seven-time Gold Glove winner)>

if you include his free agent battle

[DoubleX]

The "new" VC format is terrible. The point of the VC is to correct the oversights of the writers. Now, the old VC did take great liberty with that, often inducting undeserving to very undeserving players. But what remains is that there are some clearly deserving candidates that the writers have kept on the outside and that VC should put in. But when you have Hall of Famers voting for more Hall of Famers, understandably they will be reluctant about extending their exclusive club.

IMO, the Hall will always feel incomplete without Ron Santo. There are others on the outside waiting to deservedly in (Minoso, Simmons, Dahlen, Gordon, Allen, for starters), but the line starts with Santo, IMO.

[J W]

to sum up...


Players Ballot (27)
Dick Allen
Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Rocky Colavito
Wes Ferrell
Curt Flood
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Jim Kaat
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Marty Marion
Roger Maris
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso
Thurman Munson
Don Newcombe
Lefty O'Doul
Tony Oliva
Al Oliver
Vada Pinson
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
Joe Torre
Cecil Travis
Mickey Vernon
Maury Wills


Composite Ballot (15)
Buzzie Bavasi
August Busch
Harry Dalton
Charles O. Finley
Doug Harvey
Whitey Herzog
Bowie Kuhn
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Walter O'Malley
Gabe Paul
Paul Richards
Bill White
Dick Williams
Phil Wrigley

[J W]

I think this is a much better idea than the list of 200 players presented to the voters last time. These guys needed a smaller list to choose from. I think perhaps the selection committee used the last ballot to sort players out based on their prospective chances of making it. You can see a decidedly modern slant to the ballot because of this... but there are still a number of worthy candidates IMO.

[Brad Harris]

Where I a VC voter this year, here would be my ballots:

Players Ballot
Dick Allen
Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso
Tony Oliva
Ron Santo
Joe Torre

Composite Ballot
Buzzie Bavasi
Whitey Herzog
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Walter O'Malley
Dick Williams[/QUOTE]

[Biggtone23]

I'm not sure about the player ballot but there have been no changes to the composite ballot from the last election, so really no reason to think the result will be different this year. Most of the players are the same ones who were up 2 years ago also.

I'm sure we'll hear some crap about not wanting to take the focus away from Ripken and Gwynn's induction as a reason to keep others out.

[538280]

I really hope Santo goes in, that would be a large step in the right direction. Then again, Hodges getting in would be a huge step the other way.

[DoubleX]

I really hope Santo goes in, that would be a large step in the right direction. Then again, Hodges getting in would be a huge step the other way.

I don't think Hodges getting in would be that bad of a selection. I don't really believe Hodges should be in, but it wouldn't bother me too much. People forget that it is the Hall of Fame, and not the Hall of Gaudy Statistics. You could argue that it shouldn't be that way, but the reality is, it is that way and we can't undo that. The standard was long ago set that a player could get in based on their fame when their statistical accomplishment would not appear to cut it. Hodges was a good player, and I believe he was better than what most of the more advanced metrics say. Beyond that, he was and still is very beloved and a very well recognized baseball name, even by casual fans. There is actually bridge named after him in Brooklyn. I'd be willing to bet that more casual fans know the name Gil Hodges than the names of a majority of the players in the Hall. The point is, Gil Hodges is a famous and recognizable baseball name, probably the most famous and recognizable that not in the Hall, and probably more famous and recongizable than most in the Hall. So that in sense, I don't think inducting him would be such a bad thing, even if on statistics alone, he comes up short.

The secondary point to this is, that I think people tend to forget that there is a lot more to baseball than just statistics on paper, and I think that's where Hodges fits in (especially to Brooklyn fans, who, even almost 50 years later, are unmatched in their devotion to a single player). Sometimes I wonder why some people even bother to watch baseball games, as some seem to believe that everything you need to know can be gleaned from the stat sheet.

[jalbright]

I don't think Hodges belongs either, but he's not that much worse than Tony Perez, who I think merits squeaking in. To me, those two kind of define just in versus just out, which means Hodges wouldn't be an awful choice.

Getting Santo in would be a far more significant positive step than whatever Hodges' fate is IMO.

Jim Albright

[538280]

I don't think Hodges getting in would be that bad of a selection. I don't really believe Hodges should be in, but it wouldn't bother me too much. People forget that it is the Hall of Fame, and not the Hall of Gaudy Statistics. You could argue that it shouldn't be that way, but the reality is, it is that way and we can't undo that. The standard was long ago set that a player could get in based on their fame when their statistical accomplishment would not appear to cut it. Hodges was a good player, and I believe he was better than what most of the more advanced metrics say. Beyond that, he was and still is very beloved and a very well recognized baseball name, even by casual fans. There is actually bridge named after him in Brooklyn. I'd be willing to bet that more casual fans know the name Gil Hodges than the names of a majority of the players in the Hall. The point is, Gil Hodges is a famous and recognizable baseball name, probably the most famous and recognizable that not in the Hall, and probably more famous and recongizable than most in the Hall. So that in sense, I don't think inducting him would be such a bad thing, even if on statistics alone, he comes up short.

The secondary point to this is, that I think people tend to forget that there is a lot more to baseball than just statistics on paper, and I think that's where Hodges fits in (especially to Brooklyn fans, who, even almost 50 years later, are unmatched in their devotion to a single player). Sometimes I wonder why some people even bother to watch baseball games, as some seem to believe that everything you need to know can be gleaned from the stat sheet.

Hodges was famous in his own time, but there is little evidence he was ever regarded as a truly great player. The sportswriters of the time, looking at the MVP vote, certainly did not consider him a great player. I know what a great guy Hodges was, how beloved he was to the fans and the communtiy, and all that. I certainly commend the man for that and I have no doubts he was a great guy. To me though this should have nothing to do with whether or not he goes into the HOF. Whether or not a player goes into the HOF should be based on how great of a player they were. Hodges was just not a great player at all.

If Gil Hodges gets into the HOF based on many of arguments I've seen for him, I could probably make a perfectly good case for Tim Wakefield being a HOF caliber player. That's the problem I have.

[CTaka]

I'd vote for Ron Santo and Dick Allen. Of course, my guess is that this current committee will probably stay consistent and again vote no one in.

[JRB]

Hodges was famous in his own time, but there is little evidence he was ever regarded as a truly great player. The sportswriters of the time, looking at the MVP vote, certainly did not consider him a great player. I know what a great guy Hodges was, how beloved he was to the fans and the communtiy, and all that. I certainly commend the man for that and I have no doubts he was a great guy. To me though this should have nothing to do with whether or not he goes into the HOF. Whether or not a player goes into the HOF should be based on how great of a player they were. Hodges was just not a great player at all.

If Gil Hodges gets into the HOF based on many of arguments I've seen for him, I could probably make a perfectly good case for Tim Wakefield being a HOF caliber player. That's the problem I have.

You never seem to miss an opportunity to take a swipe at the deserving players of the past. As usual you are misinformed.

GIL HODGES DESERVES TO BE IN THE HALL OF FAME

The omission of Gil Hodges from the Hall of Fame has been one of its most controversial oversights. Gil Hodges was the greatest all around first baseman of his generation. This includes both the National and American League. He was an outstanding power hitter, a great leader, and the best fielding first baseman in the National League. He lead the National League in assists 3 time, putouts 3 times, fielding percentage 3 times, and double plays 4 times. He won the first three Golden Gloves ever awarded to a first baseman, and he would have won the award numerous other times if it had been awarded earlier in his career. I estimate he would have won 11 Golden Glove awards.

He hit 22 or more homeruns 11 straight seasons, and hit over 40 homeruns 2 times, and hit over 30 homeruns 5 times. Near the end of his career he set the all time record for career homeruns by a right handed batter in the National League, although his record was subsequently eclipsed by no less a player than Willie Mays. In 1950 he hit 4 homeruns in one game to tie the all time record. For a number of years he held the all time record for most career grand slams by a National League Player. Next, to Duke Snider he hit more homeruns than any other player in the decade of the 1950's, and he did hit more homeruns than any other right handed batter in the decade of the 1950's, including Willie Mays, etc.

He was a great RBI man for his era, and at one time had a streak of 7 straight 100+ RBI seasons. In comparison, Hall of Famer Duke Snider from that same team had only 6 100+ RBI seasons, and Hall of Famer Roy Campanella from that same team had only 3 100+ RBI seasons. He hit over .300 2 times, and had one near miss year where he hit .299. However, some have opined that the reason he hasn't been elected to the Hall of Fame is that his career batting average is only .273, however that has not prevented the election of much weaker for power hitters such as Joe Morgan who had an even lower career batting average than Hodges. Some have opined that he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall because he didn't get an MVP award, however he played on the same team with the great Duke Snider and two of the great pioneer black players, Jackie Robinson and Roy Campanella. There are only so many votes that are going to go to players on the same team for MVP, plus he had some of his best years when the team didn't win the pennant, so there were both many practical and political reasons why it was not in the cards for Hodges to get serious MVP consideration. Tony Perez, who also had the same 7 100+ RBI seasons and a lifetime batting average in the 270's,, and a virtually identical number of homeruns, is in the Hall of Fame even though he never won an MVP, as he like Hodges was overshadowed by 3 other Hall of Fame teamates.

Gil Hodges was one of the great players on one of the most storied teams in baseball history. Hodges helped lead the Dodgers to 7 pennants and 2 world championship, including the Dodgers first ever World Championship in 1955, and he also helped lead the Dodgers to its second ever World Championship in 1959 after many of the other Boys of Summer such as Robinson and Campanella were no longer on the team.

Hodges hit an important homerun off Don Larsen to help lead the Dodgers to victory in game 4 of the 1955 World Series which was one of the turning points in the series. He hit a key homerun off Hall of Famer, Whitey Ford, in game 1 of the 1956 World Series to lead the Dodgers to victory in that game. Hodges hit a dramatic game winning homerun in the eigth inning of game 4 of the 1959 series which propelled the Dodgers on to eventually win their second world championship. Hodges also hit a key 2 run homerun to help propel the National League to victory in the 1951 All Star Game.

In addition, to his tremdous contributions as a player, Hodges probably would separately deserve to be in the Hall of Fame for his accomplishments as a manager. The New York Mets were the laughingstocks of baseball in the 1960's, and set records for ineptitude. Hodges took over the team in the late 1960's and shocked the world by leading them to the World Championship in 1969. Probably the greatest rags to riches story in the history of baseball. The team they beat in the series, The Baltimore Orioles, had been considered one of the all time great teams, and had won a then near record 109 games in the regular season (the same number as the 1961 Yankees). At the time, this was considered one of the greatest upsets ever. Of course, Gil's early death prevented him from providing us with even more magical moments.

No doubt to children growing up in the 1990's and today, Gil's offensive accomplishments don't look that impressive, since we are now in the age of a super juiced baseball being hit by players enhanced with PEDS, who have debased the traditional standards of hitting. However, anybody with knowledge of baseball in Gil's era knows how substantial his accomplishments were both offensively and defensively. Gil's contributions to baseball as both a player and manager are enormous. Gil Hodges deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

[hubkittel]

thanks for summing up the ballot, jw. this, of the top of my head, is how i would vote. but with the way the voting is set up, i'm not sure if anybody is going to get in. if that happens (again) it might be time to revamp the veterns committee process (again).

Players Ballot
Dick Allen
Ken Boyer
Gil Hodges
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
Joe Torre

Composite Ballot
Charles O. Finley
Whitey Herzog
Marvin Miller
Walter O'Malley
Bill White

[leecemark]

--Both halves of the ballot are mostly deserving. They did a nice job of putting this group together. I'd support the guys below, but even the ones I don't wouldn't be terribel selections.
Players
1) Ron Santo
2) Minnie Minoso
3) Dick Allen
4) Joe Torre
5) Wes Ferrell
6) Jim Kaat
7) Joe Gordon
8) Carl Mays
Composite
1) Marvin Miller
2) Whitey Herzog
3) Dick Williams
4) Charley Finely
5) Walter O'malley

[KHenry14]

I'm only voting for only three players...

1) Allen
2) Hodges
3) Santo

And two composite...

1) Doug Harvey--simply the best ump of the last 40 years
2) Dick Williams--won everywhere he went

Here's to at least Santo getting in. Otherwise the Vet committee is worthless and needs to be disbanded.

[Sliding Billy]

However, anybody with knowledge of baseball in Gil's era knows how substantial his accomplishments were both offensively and defensively. Gil's contributions to baseball as both a player and manager are enormous. Gil Hodges deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
When I was a Brooklyn fan, Gil Hodges was my favorite player, and I knew how substantial his accomplishments were, offensively and defensively. I would not want to see him inducted into the Hall of Fame while there are so many better ballplayers who are left out. The strident campaign for his election is an embarrassment, and I would be disappointed if it succeeded. After the Hall of Fame inducts Norm Cash, who had a strikingly similar career record, only better, and compiled under more difficult circumstances, then it might be time to talk about Hodges.

[JRB]

When I was a Brooklyn fan, Gil Hodges was my favorite player, and I knew how substantial his accomplishments were, offensively and defensively. I would not want to see him inducted into the Hall of Fame while there are so many better ballplayers who are left out. The strident campaign for his election is an embarrassment, and I would be disappointed if it succeeded. After the Hall of Fame inducts Norm Cash, who had a strikingly similar career record, only better, and compiled under more difficult circumstances, then it might be time to talk about Hodges.

I always liked Norm Cash, and have always thought he was an outstanding ballplayer The records of Tony Perez (who is already in the Hall of Fame), Gil Hodges (who is up for consideration), and Norm Cash seem remarkably similar in many offensive categories. They all have lifetime BA in the .270's, the homerun totals are almost identical, etc. Some of the differences would be that Tony Perez was on 4 pennant winners and 2 world championship teams; Gil Hodges was on 7 pennant winners and 2 world championship teams, and Norm Cash was on one pennant winner, the wonderful 1968 Detroit Tiger World Championship team where he hit an impressive .385 during the World Series I do note that Perez had 6 100+ RBI, seasons, Hodges had 7 100+ RBI seasons, and Cash had only the one 100+ RBI season, which was in his banner year of 1961. However, Cash has a little higher OPS than Hodges, and Cash has a very much higher OPS than Perez. You're very right in mentioning that Cash had to play in difficult circumstances, since part of his career overlapped the period 1963-68 when umpires were giving the pitchers a bigger strike zone. I'm not sure why Cash's name is not up for consideration. I do know that I've read stories which have appeared in print claiming that Cash said he used a corked bat for the entire season in 1961 when he won the batting crown with a .361 average. I don't know whether that claim has ever been substantiated, and I don't know if that is what is causing him not to be considered. In any event, he was consistently one of the top first basemen in the American League for a dozen or so years, and certainly deserves consideration.

[DoubleX]

Whether or not a player goes into the HOF should be based on how great of a player they were. Hodges was just not a great player at all.

But as I said - that's not quite reality, and I suppose unfortunately for some of us, reality is what we have to deal with. Based on the reality of the Hall of Fame, the players inducted, and why some of them have been inducted, Hodges, IMO is not that absurd of a choice.

I hate to say something like this, but this is where I think you sometimes miss the point of baseball - there is a lot more to baseball than just statistics on a page. Numbers, especially of past players that you have never seen nor experienced the sentiment derived from them in their primes, cannot do justice to what it was like to watch those players. Why even bother watching baseball if you believe that everything you need to know about a game or team or player can be summed up the stats?

Baseball is an experience and encompasses a whole lot more than statistics. The Hall of Fame celebrates baseball and the figures that embody the spirit of the game, make the game great, and make fans care - it is not just about statistics. It's in that vein where someone like Hodges falls, and that is why, IMO, he would not be such an egregious selection to the Hall of Fame (i.e. not the Hall of Gaudy Statistics).

[nyykan_t]

Joe Gordon. He the best AL second baseman in the 40's. Not to disrespect Hodges, but Gordon is more deserved to be in the Hall. I'm sad that he gets so little attention while Hodges gets lots of support.

[538280]

JRB, your entire point is completely moot. Hodges is not being brought down because of statistics in this era being so inflated. These metrics you are always criticizing compare Hodges to the league averages at his time. OPS+ takes a players OBP and SLG and compares them to league average. Hodges' is 120. That is just NOT very good for a supposed HOF 1Bman. His numbers were NOT great in the context of his time and place, regardless of what the Brooklynites may be saying. His campaign for the HOF is a sorry one. I agree with what Sliding Billy said.

How, in the context of his time was Gil Hodges within a thousand miles of Dick Allen (or even the aforementioned Norm Cash)?

[538280]

But as I said - that's not quite reality, and I suppose unfortunately for some of us, reality is what we have to deal with. Based on the reality of the Hall of Fame, the players inducted, and why some of them have been inducted, Hodges, IMO is not that absurd of a choice.

I hate to say something like this, but this is where I think you sometimes miss the point of baseball - there is a lot more to baseball than just statistics on a page. Numbers, especially of past players that you have never seen nor experienced the sentiment derived from them in their primes, cannot do justice to what it was like to watch those players. Why even bother watching baseball if you believe that everything you need to know about a game or team or player can be summed up the stats?

Baseball is an experience and encompasses a whole lot more than statistics. The Hall of Fame celebrates baseball and the figures that embody the spirit of the game, make the game great, and make fans care - it is not just about statistics. It's in that vein where someone like Hodges falls, and that is why, IMO, he would not be such an egregious selection to the Hall of Fame (i.e. not the Hall of Gaudy Statistics).

Forget about the statistics of Hodges for a minute then. What exactly is great about him, even looking at him outside of the stats? He was a great man, very popular, beloved by the fans, played for a great team, and played in a high offensive era and big hitting park which make his raw numbers not so egreriously bad (like they would be if he played in the 60s and 70s rather than the 50s). That is what drives his campaign. It has nothing to do with his playing skill.

[DoubleX]

Forget about the statistics of Hodges for a minute then. What exactly is great about him, even looking at him outside of the stats? He was a great man, very popular, beloved by the fans, played for a great team, and played in a high offensive era and big hitting park which make his raw numbers not so egreriously bad (like they would be if he played in the 60s and 70s rather than the 50s). That is what drives his campaign. It has nothing to do with his playing skill.

You're still not getting it. You say, "Forget about the statistic of Hodges for a minute then," but you were unable to do that. You stated all the exact reasons why Hodges is more than just statistics, then you go back to arguments against Hodges premised on statistics (which is futile when having this discussion with me because I am aware of the statistical arguments against Hodges and that he was probably not as good as his raw numbers make him look; you're just reiterrating something I already know.). Forgive me for saying this, but I'm starting to believe that you are unable evaluate and appreciate baseball apart from some kind of statistical analysis.

I can only say this so many times - it is the Hall of FAME, and that transcends more than just statistics and on the field production. At this point, I don't think there is anyway to get this through to you, so I'm going to leave the argument at that. I'll say this though, knowing I'll probably regret it later - but try putting the books down for a day and just watch the game and appreciate it on that level - take in the players, the plays, the fans, the atmosphere. There is a lot more to baseball than numbers on paper - A LOT MORE. If you see baseball purely as science and mathematical formulas, then you're not getting it.

[mwiggins]

I would go with:

Allen
Santo
Gordon
Hodges

In that order. And then Finely for a Composite candidate.

[DTF955]

I'm still thinking Dickey Pearce should be looked at, but it's so hard to say about his career, whether offensively he ws head and shoulders above the others. He prctically invented the way shortstop came to be played, though.

Yes, I even e-mailed them about this.

Anyway, my selections for this time:
Santo
Gordon (excellent power for a 2B)
Minoso (played little enough time in the Negro Leagues that I'm not surprised they didn't include him for that, but I do think a good case could be made. Won't be too disappointed if he isn't.)

Might vote forDick Allen, I've seen some convincing arguments.

Others:
Doug Harvey (I don't know umpires well, but I do remember that name very well from my younger days)
Whiey Herzog (Perhaps the quintessential manager of a team from the speedy late '70s/early '80s. Only one less pennant than Earl Weaver, though over more time. Best record in division (counting '81) in 5 of 7 years '76-'82, again '85 & '87, close in '89. And, these were years when there was lots of parity. Admittedly a step below Weaver & LaSorda & Anderson, but still I'd put him in.)
Dick Williams (The guy looks like the manager in "The Natural" :-) Also won a lot wherever he went, maybe a notch below the managers in there, but like Herzog I think he deserve to be in.)

I wouldn't put Billy Martin in, because though he turned teams around, there was so much dissension and turmoil that he just wasn't the kind of guy I see being a HOF managerPlus, if he was, teams would have kept him for a lot longer. (Which is true of Minnesota, Detroit, Texas, and Oakland - forget the George/Billy weirdness.)

If Joe Torre goes in as a player, does that mean he then wouldn't go in as a manager; or would he be considered again? Because I think he's a lock as a manager, just being a yankee, just like Casey Stengel was.

[Imapotato]

Roger Maris...his accomplishments deserve merit, many Card fans of the 70's think he was the missing piece of the WS title, then his 61 is looking more and more unique and special because the only guys who could beat him had to ALLEGEDLY put extra 'athleticism' into their bodies. Maris, albeit accomplished what he did because of expansion and diluted pitching, but that was outside of his control and even then only Mickey Mantle came close to his production in the AL

Ron Santo and Gil Hodges remind me of Bernie Williams very good, POPULAR players were they where, but I have no idea if they are HOF...it splits for me, I have no idea

[JimAbbott]

This is a pretty decent ballot I'd say. I'm kind of surprised that no one so far is supporting Billy Martin. I also know there are some Dick Allen heads among posters as well as this fascination with Ron Santo. Please do not count me among them as these 2 are not Hall of Famers by any stretch in my book. Somebody mentioned Williams and I agree that he is worthy of serious consideration after you get Martin in there. Hodges is the best choice among players on this ballot and what he did as Mgr should push him over the top. Other top players but not really hall worthy are Kaat, Bonds, Al Oliver and Pinson. Torre will be more than worthy later on for managing.

[mwiggins]

Roger Maris...his accomplishments deserve merit, many Card fans of the 70's think he was the missing piece of the WS title, then his 61 is looking more and more unique and special because the only guys who could beat him had to ALLEGEDLY put extra 'athleticism' into their bodies. Maris, albeit accomplished what he did because of expansion and diluted pitching, but that was outside of his control and even then only Mickey Mantle came close to his production in the AL

Ron Santo and Gil Hodges remind me of Bernie Williams very good, POPULAR players were they where, but I have no idea if they are HOF...it splits for me, I have no idea

Santo deserves to get in just based on his playing career, leaving aside his popularity. 9 time all-star, 5 gold gloves, hit 30 or more HR's 4 times (during the mid 60's), led the league in OBP 2 twice, hit 342 career HR's, finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 4 times.

And he has a career OPS+ of 125, which is better than a lot of HoF 3B, such as:
Brooks Robinson - 104
George Kell - 111
Jimmy Collins - 113
Pie Traynor - 107
Fred Lindstrom - 110
Paul Molitor - 122

That's almost half of the guys in the HoF at 3B. Boggs, Mathews, Brett, Baker, Killibrew, and Schmidt were better hitters, but that's about it.

He also has a better career OPS+ than his old teammate Ernie Banks (122).

Meanwhile, Bernie Williams, through 2005 (15 seasons, just like Santo played), has only only made the all-star game 5 times, only gotten 4 Gold Gloves, only finished in the top 10 in MVP voting once, only hit 275 career homers (in a bigger HR era than Santo). His career OPS+ of 127 is a little better than Santo's, but Santo's a top 10 3B of all time*, Bernie is not even close to being a top 10 CF of all time.

1. Schmidt
2. Mathews
3. Brett
4. Boggs
5. Robinson
6. Killibrew
7. Baker
8. Santo

[DoubleX]

to sum up...


Players Ballot (27)
Dick Allen
Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Rocky Colavito
Wes Ferrell
Curt Flood
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Jim Kaat
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Marty Marion
Roger Maris
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso
Thurman Munson
Don Newcombe
Lefty O'Doul
Tony Oliva
Al Oliver
Vada Pinson
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
Joe Torre
Cecil Travis
Mickey Vernon
Maury Wills

It's very disturbing to not see more pre 1950s players on there. I think guys like Sherry Magee, Bob Johnson, Carl Mays, Bill Dahlen, Wally Berger, Buddy Myer, Larry Doyle, Heinie Groh, Bob Elliot, Stan Hack, Lave Cross, Wally Schang, and many others, deserve at least as much recognition as many of the candidates listed.

[Imapotato]

And he has a career OPS+ of 125, which is better than a lot of HoF 3B, such as:
Brooks Robinson - 104
George Kell - 111
Jimmy Collins - 113
Pie Traynor - 107
Fred Lindstrom - 110
Paul Molitor - 122




Collins, Traynor, Lindstrom, Kell...game was different, as were the pre requistes of who to put at 3rd base...

Brooks Robinson got in because many argue he is the greatest defensive 3rd baseman of all time and his magnificent World Series, much like Schilling will probably make it due to his 'bloody sock' game

OPS+ is a modern stat that can compare modern day players...and its only ONE stat...I woul dhope HOF criteria is not based on 1 or 2 stats but a plethora of other things...including non statistical


Aside from all that

Anyone think Lefty O'Doul should get in as a PIONEER?
O'Doul is the main reason that baseball became Japan's #1 sport...and seeing guys like Matsui, Saito, Ichiro in the big leagues today...I'd say he was the cog that set that into motion