Hiding the ball better?

[EdmondsFan#1]

Okay, i need some help on this.

I can throw a 4-seamer hard , but my 2 seamer has great movement. But my 2 seamer is also slower, so i figured i could make up for that if i had an explosive fastball instead of a fast fastball. So does anyone know anyway to hide the ball better?

I always thought throwing overhand would work, but i'm not sure how well it works because i'm not the one seeing myself. Is there any other factors of hiding the ball?

[GFK]

... Is there any other factors of hiding the ball?

Different style arm actions hide the ball better then others. Look into what is called the "Inverted W" arm action. Others have called it the "Inverted Goal Post" style arm action. A good example would be Smoltz. With this style of arm action, the ball is hidden from the batter until it explodes forward.

Word of warning. If you have been throwing a baseball for a few years, changing your arm action is going to be very difficult if not impossible.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I've only been playing baseball for 2 years, i side-armed my first year and now i have a 3/4 arm slot, but i'm good with every one.

Edit: What is this inverted W thing? If this is what i think it is i heard it puts alot of unneccisary stress on the rotator cuff...

[Chris O'Leary]

What is this inverted W thing? If this is what i think it is i heard it puts alot of unneccisary stress on the rotator cuff...

The inverted W is a terrible, and completely unnecessary, thing for a pitcher to do (greats like Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens didn't do it). It can lead to problems with both the rotator cuff and the labrum.

Here's Mark Prior making the inverted W...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_MarkPrior_00 2.jpg

It's no coincidence that Prior has recently had shoulder problems.

Here's Anthony Reyes making the inverted W...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_AnthonyReyes _002.jpg

I see shoulder problems ahead for him.

[Chris O'Leary]

Is there any other factors of hiding the ball?

Limiting how much you reverse rotate your shoulders (e.g. taking the ball back toward 2B) will make it harder for the batter to see the ball.

Greg Maddux is widely regarded to be sneaky fast, which is why he has been effective for so long. He reverse rotates less than most people. He also DOESN'T make the inverted W.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/GregMaddux_2006_003.jpg

Also, here's Nolan Ryan NOT making the inverted W.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/NolanRyan_001.jpg

[jojab]

The inverted W is a terrible, and completely unnecessary, thing for a pitcher to do (greats like Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens didn't do it). It can lead to problems with both the rotator cuff and the labrum.



Okay predictor of shoulder problems, he used Smoltz as his example. When do you predict he'll blow his arm out and be out of baseball?

That's okay though, I remember when you thought scap loading was terrible and unecessary, too. That was until you realized it is what most pitchers do.

Here is Smoltz's "W".

[GFK]

I've only been playing baseball for 2 years, i side-armed my first year and now i have a 3/4 arm slot, but i'm good with every one.

Edit: What is this inverted W thing? If this is what i think it is i heard it puts alot of unneccisary stress on the rotator cuff...

EdmondsFan#1, you are going to come across a scaremonger at every corner when you start talking about pitching mechanics and training. Is there risk involved with pitching? I hope you don't need me to answer that. Everything has a certain amount of risk to it. Even doing nothing has risk to it.

Don't be blindly led by what some popular guru or internet wonk tells you. Look at lots of slow motion video of what the MLB pitchers are doing. Bump it against what the gurus and wonks are telling you!

[Chris O'Leary]

Okay predictor of shoulder problems, he used Smoltz as his example. When do you predict he'll blow his arm out and be out of baseball? That's okay though, I remember when you thought scap loading was terrible and unecessary, too. That was until you realized it is what most pitchers do. Here is Smoltz's "W".

First, Smoltz HAS had a series of shoulder problems. See September of 2005 for the most recent shoulder problems that I can find...

- http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/request.dll?PLAYERNOTESARCHIVE&Param0=4232

Second, the frame that you show demonstrates that Smoltz doesn't do it as bad as Mark Prior or Anthony Reyes, which may explain his longevity.

Third, I have changed my opinion of scapular loading (and is one place where I break with Mike Marshall). While I don't think it's something that guys should focus on (because I think it happens naturally), I do think that there is a safe way to do it; to keep the elbows below the shoulders.

If you decribed this as making a horizontal W, then I would have less of a problem with your advice.

[Chris O'Leary]

Look at lots of slow motion video of what the MLB pitchers are doing. Bump it against what the gurus and wonks are telling you!

I completely agree.

And if you look for the inverted W (or actually just a plain old "M"), you generally will only find it in guys who have had shoulder problems. More often than not, you will see a horizontal W in the greats like Seaver, Ryan, Gibson, and Clemens.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Chris,

My pitching instructor told me to have my Elbow above my shoulder today...

At first i was listening to you, but i do throw alot harder having my elbow above my shoulder... Infact, he said that having the elbow below my shoulder made my body want to side arm the ball more, which causes shoulder problems he says...

He also taught me to keep everything square with my target *land with my feet closed and rotate my hips without pointing my foot foward* , this all seems completely wrong to me...


Edit: Nevermind, i don't think that he taught me the inverted W, because my hands were not facing downwards, he told me to have the elbow above my shoulder but the top of my hands were facing the sky, if that makes sense.


But i did throw harder, and less painfully.

[GFK]

...He also taught me to keep everything square with my target *land with my feet closed and rotate my hips without pointing my foot foward* , this all seems completely wrong to me...

Go with your gut feeling, look at some video. How many MLB pitchers do you see that land with their front foot closed to the plate?

There are lots of individuals (well meaning or not) out there who will take your money for pitching and hitting instruction that is counter to what the best of the best are doing.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Go with your gut feeling, look at some video. How many MLB pitchers do you see that land with their front foot closed to the plate?

There are lots of individuals (well meaning or not) out there who will take your money for pitching and hitting instruction that is counter to what the best of the best are doing.

I don't know how many do land with their foot closed to the plate? I can't find like any mlb pitcher videos.

[CanadianKid]

The inverted W is a terrible, and completely unnecessary, thing for a pitcher to do (greats like Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens didn't do it). It can lead to problems with both the rotator cuff and the labrum.

Here's Mark Prior making the inverted W...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_MarkPrior_00 2.jpg

It's no coincidence that Prior has recently had shoulder problems.

Here's Anthony Reyes making the inverted W...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Images/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_AnthonyReyes _002.jpg

I see shoulder problems ahead for him.

Oh so that's what that arm action is called. I've seen Jake Peavy doing it and I thought it was weird and didn't know what it was called.

[GFK]

...I can't find like any mlb pitcher videos.

Go to the following and remember to thank John Sigler (jsiggy) (http://baseball-fever.com/member.php?u=10035)

http://imageevent.com/siggy

[EdmondsFan#1]

Limiting how much you reverse rotate your shoulders (e.g. taking the ball back toward 2B) will make it harder for the batter to see the ball.

Greg Maddux is widely regarded to be sneaky fast, which is why he has been effective for so long. He reverse rotates less than most people. He also DOESN'T make the inverted W.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/GregMaddux_2006_003.jpg

Also, here's Nolan Ryan NOT making the inverted W.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/NolanRyan_001.jpg

How do you reverse rotate your shoulders as little as possible? I'm confused.

[Chris O'Leary]

How do you reverse rotate your shoulders as little as possible? I'm confused.

Break your hands, and take the ball back, pretty much in line with 2B and Home.

Some guys, while breaking their hands, reverse rotate their shoulders so that their shoulders point halfway up the 3B line. It almost looks like their are striding backwards toward the target.

I think Jered and Jeff Weaver do this.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Break your hands, and take the ball back, pretty much in line with 2B and Home.

Some guys, while breaking their hands, reverse rotate their shoulders so that their shoulders point halfway up the 3B line. It almost looks like their are striding backwards toward the target.

I think Jered and Jeff Weaver do this.

so isn't the inverted W or M a good way to hide the ball since the hands are pointing toward home and 2nd?

[PJ-34]

try throwing side arm, i practice that alot and have gotten very good at it, it is very hard to hit a side armed fastball with movement much like your 2-seamer it could make it alot more dangerous

[Chris O'Leary]

so isn't the inverted W or M a good way to hide the ball since the hands are pointing toward home and 2nd?

IMNSHO, the inverted W/M may be a good way to hide the ball, but it's also going to destroy your shoulder in a few years (and maybe your elbow as well).

You can see this is the career of Mark Prior.

A few years of effectiveness followed by continual injury problems.

[EdmondsFan#1]

IMNSHO, the inverted W/M may be a good way to hide the ball, but it's also going to destroy your shoulder in a few years (and maybe your elbow as well).

You can see this is the career of Mark Prior.

A few years of effectiveness followed by continual injury problems.

So should i do that greg maddux thing with the arms down by my sides and then throw overhand? That sounds like it'd do good to me :coffee

[jojab]

IMNSHO, the inverted W/M may be a good way to hide the ball, but it's also going to destroy your shoulder in a few years (and maybe your elbow as well).

You can see this is the career of Mark Prior.

A few years of effectiveness followed by continual injury problems.

So, you take one guy - Mark Prior - and then take one part of his mechanics and use that as your sample to make this conclusion? Could it be the way he extends towards the plate (ala Tom House) that is causing his problems? I don't think anyone really knows otherwise the Cubs organization probably would have corrected this.

How about Wagner and Smoltz with a combined 30 seasons both doing the inverted W? How does that factor into your "beliefs"? The bottom line is that you don't know -- this is just something you think might happen. You're just making a wild guess.

[Dev518]

IMNSHO, the inverted W/M may be a good way to hide the ball, but it's also going to destroy your shoulder in a few years (and maybe your elbow as well).

You can see this is the career of Mark Prior.

A few years of effectiveness followed by continual injury problems. So how is Smoltz in his upper 30s and still throws the ball so effectively from this arm angle? I don't remember him ever having a major injury.

[EdmondsFan#1]

The inverted W/M and the elbow above shoulder is horse*hit in my opinion, pitching wears your shoulder period, or else everyone would pitch until 50 years old. Also, nothing will happen to the shoulder if you condition it properly and strengthen the rotator cuff (resistance bands) like any pitcher in risk of arm troubles should do.

Ever think that Mark Prior might just not condition properly and doesn't take care of himself?

It's funny too that you only relate the elbow above shoulder thing to pitchers, Plently of infielders do it that have never had shoulder problems.

Derek jeter brings his elbow above his shoulder and has a very strong arm and I have never heard of him having any shoulder problems.

Edit: Also, just becuase Nolan Ryan doesn't mean you should/shouldn't do something, I'm sure he is just doing what feels more natural/better for him.

[Chris O'Leary]

So, you take one guy - Mark Prior - and then take one part of his mechanics and use that as your sample to make this conclusion?

This isn't based on my viewing of one guy.

I have seen the same pattern in other guys who have also had shoulder problems...

- Don Drysdale
- Paul Byrd

[Chris O'Leary]

How about Wagner and Smoltz with a combined 30 seasons both doing the inverted W? How does that factor into your "beliefs"?

Wagner has had a series of shoulder problems. If you're an owner in Houston or Philly, that's going to both you.

I'm going to see if this idea bears out by tracking the careers of Joel Zumaya and Aaron Heilman. They both do the same thing an I think they will experience similar problems.

In terms of Smoltz, he has had shoulder problems. However, I think it's significant that he doesn't do it as much as Wagner does. I believe that helps to explain his better durability.


The bottom line is that you don't know -- this is just something you think might happen. You're just making a wild guess.

I'll admit that this is a guess, but it's an educated guess.

[Chris O'Leary]

So how is Smoltz in his upper 30s and still throws the ball so effectively from this arm angle? I don't remember him ever having a major injury.

Smoltz has had problems with both his elbow and his shoulder.

[Chris O'Leary]

It's funny too that you only relate the elbow above shoulder thing to pitchers, Plently of infielders do it that have never had shoulder problems...Derek jeter brings his elbow above his shoulder and has a very strong arm and I have never heard of him having any shoulder problems.

Infielders don't make nearly as many throws as pitchers do.

What's more, some of them do still come down with rotator cuff and labrum problems.

[jojab]

Smoltz has had problems with both his elbow and his shoulder.

18 years in MLB, Chris, 18 years!

[jojab]

Wagner has had a series of shoulder problems. If you're an owner in Houston or Philly, that's going to both you.


It didn't bother the Mets who paid top dollar to lure him in.

Wagner is one of the top closers in the game. He was hitting 99 and 98 on the gun in the playoff game last night when he got the save.

What if he changed or never had this sort of arm action? Would he throw 99 and 98? Would he even be a 12 year veteran in MLB? Would he even have played in MLB?

What is the risk of listening to you? Some kid doesn't develop to his full potential and never lives out his dream of playing at the highest level possible? All because you looked at some stills of pitchers and made an educated guess that this "might" cause a problem? That sometime in their 18 year or 12 year career they might have a shoulder problem as a pitcher? Geez Chris, do you think about this sometimes? Why in the world someone who aspires to be a great pitcher would not try to emmulate what the best pitchers in the world actually do is beyond me.

[Chris O'Leary]

18 years in MLB, Chris, 18 years!

But what about 2 almost wasted years in 1994 and 2001 (as well as shortened seasons in 1995 and 1998) and numerous other problems? Both Maddux and Glavine have had much cleaner careers.

I will grant you that Smoltz has had a more productive, and less injury-prone, career than Wagner. However, I believe that's related to the fact that Smoltz's mechanics are relatively better than Wagner's.

[jojab]

Infielders don't make nearly as many throws as pitchers do.

What's more, some of them do still come down with rotator cuff and labrum problems.

Yeah, Jeter hardly makes any throws. He mainly sits around in the dugout eating seeds. Oh once in a while he'll make an underhand flip to Cano to start a double play. :laugh

[jojab]

But what about 2 almost wasted years in 1994 and 2001 (as well as shortened seasons in 1995 and 1998) and numerous other problems? Both Maddux and Glavine have had much cleaner careers.

I will grant you that Smoltz has had a more productive, and less injury-prone, career than Wagner. However, I believe that's related to the fact that Smoltz's mechanics are relatively better than Wagner's.

Well, if you want 18 injury-free years in MLB, well then I guess you got me there, Chris. Better not emmulate Smoltz or Wagner then. You might not even want to pitch. Best bet is to become a DH. See Dr. Tom.Guerry for hitting training (and bring your video camera). :rolleyes:

[Chris O'Leary]

What if he changed or never had this sort of arm action? Would he throw 99 and 98? Would he even be a 12 year veteran in MLB? Would he even have played in MLB?

Nolan Ryan threw just as hard but with different, and in my opinion better, mechanics.


What is the risk of listening to you? Some kid doesn't develop to his full potential and never lives out his dream of playing at the highest level possible? All because you looked at some stills of pitchers and made an educated guess that this "might" cause a problem? That sometime in their 18 year or 12 year career they might have a shoulder problem as a pitcher? Geez Chris, do you think about this sometimes? Why in the world someone who aspires to be a great pitcher would not try to emulate what the best pitchers in the world actually do is beyond me.

Remember that, while I think what Marshall says is interesting, I'm not as radical as him.

I think the conventional pitching motion can be fixed. Marshall doesn't.

As a result, I don't have a problem advocating the mechanics of long-lived, relatively injury-free HOFers like Ryan, Clemens, Sutton, Seaver, Gibson, and Carlton and currently active guys like Maddux, Glavine, Garcia, and Oswalt.

I just don't think young kids should waste their time emulating the mechanics of injury-plagued guys like Prior and Wagner when there are better (and proven) models out there.

[Chris O'Leary]

Yeah, Jeter hardly makes any throws. He mainly sits around in the dugout eating seeds. Oh once in a while he'll make an underhand flip to Cano to start a double play. :laugh

In most cases, and with the exception of catchers, position players will make something like 1 throw to a pitcher's 10. What's more, not every one of a position player's throw is a max effort throw (and none of them are curveballs or sliders).

That is a big, and significant, difference.

[Chris O'Leary]

Well, if you want 18 injury-free years in MLB, well then I guess you got me there, Chris. Better not emmulate Smoltz or Wagner then.

Exactly.

You should emulate Ryan, Glavine, Maddux, or someone like that.

[jojab]

You should emulate Ryan...

Sounds like some good advice, Chris. Check this out though - hardly sounds like you be an advocate of teaching this sort of velocity at a young age! I'm sure you would have coached that nonsense out of him right away.

Growing up in little Alvin, Texas, Ryan was a high schooler with an awesome fastball but almost no control. The New York Mets selected him in the tenth round of the 1965 free-agent draft. In 1966, he blazed his way to 272 strikeouts, 127 walks, and 17 wins (all Carolina League highs at the time) at Greenville, frightening batters and catchers alike with his velocity.

Despite a chronic blister problem (he tried several remedies, including soaking his fingers in pickle brine) and a month on the disabled list, Ryan went 6-9 in 1968 with a 3.09 ERA and struck out 133 batters in 134 innings. Ryan also walked 75 batters, displaying a lack of control that plagued him early in his career. Ryan led his league in strikeouts six times in his first twelve major league seasons; each season, he was also the league leader in walks.

If Ryan's wildness made his coaching staff nervous, it scared the daylights out of opposing players. In a high-school playoff game, Ryan had thrown a fastball that fractured a hitter's arm. His next pitch broke the following batter's helmet. The third batter appealed to his coach for mercy, but eventually mustered the nerve to stand in and strike out on three pitches.

[GFK]

It didn't bother the Mets who paid top dollar to lure him in.

Wagner is one of the top closers in the game. He was hitting 99 and 98 on the gun in the playoff game last night when he got the save.

What if he changed or never had this sort of arm action? Would he throw 99 and 98? Would he even be a 12 year veteran in MLB? Would he even have played in MLB?

What is the risk of listening to you? Some kid doesn't develop to his full potential and never lives out his dream of playing at the highest level possible? All because you looked at some stills of pitchers and made an educated guess that this "might" cause a problem? That sometime in their 18 year or 12 year career they might have a shoulder problem as a pitcher? Geez Chris, do you think about this sometimes? Why in the world someone who aspires to be a great pitcher would not try to emmulate what the best pitchers in the world actually do is beyond me.

Kid ends up missing an opportunity, goes to work in the computer field, develops carpal tunnel syndrome after about 5 years of hacking on a keyboard for $15 / hr.:crazy

[GFK]

...If Ryan's wildness made his coaching staff nervous, it scared the daylights out of opposing players. In a high-school playoff game, Ryan had thrown a fastball that fractured a hitter's arm. His next pitch broke the following batter's helmet. The third batter appealed to his coach for mercy, but eventually mustered the nerve to stand in and strike out on three pitches. [/I]

Thats the kind of attitude I like. Throw the damn thing so hard it makes the batter wet his pants:D

[EdmondsFan#1]

Thats the kind of attitude I like. Throw the damn thing so hard it makes the batter wet his pants:D

Damn right :D .


I almost feel bad for those kids, god, i can only imagine how freaking petrified they were..

I know i would definetly have to clean my cup when i got home...