Can Berkman be the NL MVP?

[Baseball Guru]

Because the more I look at him, the more I like him just as much as Howard or Pujols at the moment..

In the month of Sept alone, as the Stros make a run for the division here are some #'s to chew at:

22-rbi's
8-hr's

Season #'s
Hitting
.386 with RISP
.425 with RISP w/2 outs
.600 with the bases loaded

Overall he is hitting:
.317-avg
.422-obp%
.627-slg %
1.049-ops
44-hr's
133-rbi's (keep in mind, and this is mind bogging, that the next highest rbi total on the team is Craig Biggio's 61)!


A few weeks ago no one, except me;) even had Berkman in the MVP discussion... But now take a look at how he compares vs Howard and Pujols:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/playercompare?sort=7&cat=Batting&pids%5B7437%5D=1&pids%5B6619%5D=1&pids%5B6279%5D=1

If somehow the Astros could overtake the Cards and the Phillies fail to win the WC, does anyone else see Berkman as having a legit shot?

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Not if he doesn't take em to the playoffs, if that's the case (no playoff), then he'll be like last year's Derrek Lee, and he really deserved it

[BoSox Rule]

No, but he's definitely a top 5.

[Baseball Guru]

No, but he's definitely a top 5.


So lets say the scenario I described happens (Cards and Phils dont make the playoffs) and the Astros do, who in your opinion, wins the MVP?

[BoSox Rule]

I don't take teams into consideration. A player who contributes 100 runs created and 10 runs in the field will do that no matter where he plays. His value comes from his contribution, not what the other 24 guys contribute

[Baseball Guru]

I don't take teams into consideration. A player who contributes 100 runs created and 10 runs in the field will do that no matter where he plays. His value comes from his contribution, not what the other 24 guys contribute


Historically thats not how the voters look at it.... Not saying it wont happen this year, just not the way the voters usually look at it.... Neither of those teams, even if they dont make it, will miss by far so its probably a moot point anyways...

[Ubiquitous]

of the candidates it goes Pujols, Berkman, Howard for batting average.

It goes Pujols, Berkman, Howard for OBP.

It goes Pujols, Howard, Berkman for SLG

It goes Howard, Pujols, Berkman for home runs.

Berkman and Howard have played more then Pujols, with Howard with the most games.

Berkman has strong rate stats but in that department Pujols is better. Berkman has strong counting stats but in that department Howard has him beat with Pujols not too far behind.

I think Berkman finishes no higher then 3rd and probably will finish 4th or 5th.

Unless the Cards collapse I think the award goes to Pujols. If the Cards don't get to the playoffs then it is Howards award even though that means Houston and Berkman would go to the playoffs.

[EvanAparra]

Berkman is a close 3rd behind Pujols and Howard. But they both edge him in most everything. And Pujols is much better defensively. Pujols should win in my book.

[Baseball Guru]

I think the thing that fascinates me with Berkman is what he is doing and what he has around him... I think that gives Pujols some extra credit as well as the Cards have played without Edmonds for a good portion of time and Rolen has played poor lately...

Honestly, where would the Astros be without Berkman?

[Ubiquitous]

They probably wouldn't be in the race but they wouldn't be too far from where they are now. This is about 82 win team and they only got that much because of this hot streak at the end other wise they finish the season with a losing record. They have a chance not because of Lance, well okay he is playing his part, but because of the pitching which has been better then almost all other teams in the NL and has been very good in the month of September.


PS Houston is winning 3-nothing in the 7th!!!

Oh man 9 in a row!!! How cool is that?

[wu-tang clan]

nah homez. my man ryan howard has got this thang locked up, yo. maybe pujols might get it but, hey, you win some, you lose some. just like a story my grandpa once told me. My grampa was in the army for three years. his name was tim rogers. he had tattoos all over his arms and chest. his wife, descending from a long line of europeans, dating back even towards
the days of King George. anyways, back to the story. now, like i said, my grampa was in the army for 3 years, and had tattoos all over his chest and arms.
one day, he woke up to the loud sounds of war. He asked his drill sergeant what to do, but the drill sergeant did not respond, for he was dead. he then ran to a nearby vehicle (the exact vehicle i do not know because this was a very long time ago and my grampa is getting very old and has a bad memory). Anyhoo, back to the story; he then drove this unspecified vehicle into the northern regions of africa, until he got lost. he then found some tribesman, who would gadly help him if he could retrieve the sacred talisman from another nearby tribe. it took a lot of time and stress, but he managed to get it, along with the help of his new friend, a chimpanzee by the name of bubbles. funny story how he got to befriend bubbles, actually. while he was trying to sneak into the rival tribe's fortress, a nearby guard saw him and alerted the king.

now, the king was a beastly man. he looked like a crocodile. and he summoned bubbles to attack my grampa. but, thanks to some good luck, he managed to convince bubbles to befriend him and steal the talisman.

anyways, back to the story; with the help of the tribeman, he was able to get to south america, and while searching for a way back to the states, encountered something he had never, ever seen before. yes, that's right my friends; he saw a boa constrictor. it tried to strangle him, but he wriggled free. sad thing is though, bubbles was eaten by a hippo while this was going on.
After getting free, the rival enemy found him, and tried to kill him. but, my grampa, was no ordinary grampa. he had great skillz. after he defeated the Red Ribbon Army, which was the enemy, he found america. problem was, he was lost in the vast desert of new mexico.

after finding a gas station, he hitched a ride with a fellow by the name of james carpenter. now james was a book salesman. he was on his way to denver to deliver his books and his kindly advice to the beautiful children when trouble arose. the car had no tires! what to do? ah, my grampa knew. he made some makeshift tires out of human hair and roadkill and got to denver. then he took a plane back to his home, minneapolis, where his wife was waiting for him with a present: a new car! and a baby, which was my mom, and she gave birth to me. THE END


well, now that im done with that riveting tale that showed why ryan howard should be NL MVP. Pujols my friend you have had a good year, but you win some, you lose some. reminds me of a story. but, im too tired right now because i just finished that incredibly long story, that actually happened, as a matter of fact.

AL MVP- NICK PUNTO





GO TWINS!!!!! :gt

[538280]

I was just looking at those numbers and what I automatically thought of was park factors. Pujols plays in a basically neutral park, while both Howard and Berkman in a very hitter friendly park. Pujols is easily the best of that group. I really like Berkman, and I think he's very underrated, but it's just really hard to see a case for him ahead of Pujols, unless team performance matters to you and the Astros overtake the Cards.

[micsmith]

I was going to start this thread today as well. Howard has got Chase Utley, Jimmie Rollins, Pat Burrell, and for the majority of the season Bobby Abreu with him. Pujols has Scott Rolen, Chris Duncan, and Jim Edmonds with him. Who has Berkman got? I think Willy Taveras is the only other regular batting over .250.

[HHReloaded]

I was going to start this thread today as well. Howard has got Chase Utley, Jimmie Rollins, Pat Burrell, and for the majority of the season Bobby Abreu with him. Pujols has Scott Rolen, Chris Duncan, and Jim Edmonds with him. Who has Berkman got? I think Willy Taveras is the only other regular batting over .250.

So what???

[Jose Reyes]

I was going to start this thread today as well. Howard has got Chase Utley, Jimmie Rollins, Pat Burrell, and for the majority of the season Bobby Abreu with him. Pujols has Scott Rolen, Chris Duncan, and Jim Edmonds with him. Who has Berkman got? I think Willy Taveras is the only other regular batting over .250.

Just what I was thinking. Berkman has the lowest numbers of the top candidates (and not by much), but he also has the worst supporting cast around him. As Baseball Guru said in the first post Biggio is 2nd on the Astros in RBIs with 61. If the Phillies and Cards both fail to make the playoffs I can't see how you could argue that Pujols and Howard deserve the MVP more.

[Baseball Guru]

So what???

Well that is a great reply:rolleyes:

The point I'm sure he is making is just how valuable he is to the Astros because there is a whole lot less talent around him as oppossed to Pujols and moreso Howard....

[STLCards2]

I was going to start this thread today as well. Howard has got Chase Utley, Jimmie Rollins, Pat Burrell, and for the majority of the season Bobby Abreu with him. Pujols has Scott Rolen, Chris Duncan, and Jim Edmonds with him. Who has Berkman got? I think Willy Taveras is the only other regular batting over .250.

In case you hadn't notoced... Duncan has only played half of the season, Edmonds has not been good this year and has missed tons of time with injuries, and Rolen has not been very good the second half of the season.

[DodgerBlue81]

NO

It should be Howard.

[bama50]

Like I said somewhere else lol Ryan Howard is da man.

[wu-tang clan]

Like I said somewhere else lol Ryan Howard is da man.

thats exactly what i was sayin, homie. i dont finna think berkman is in the race right now cuz of pujols and howard.

[HHReloaded]

Well that is a great reply:rolleyes:

The point I'm sure he is making is just how valuable he is to the Astros because there is a whole lot less talent around him as oppossed to Pujols and moreso Howard....

His level of value isn't affected by the rest of his team's peformance.

[holyroman]

Some of you are not getting the fact that not having people around you in the line up that can hit for a decent average hurts your stats and thus your oppurtunity to swing at good pitches and contribute in driving in runs you otherwise would with more protection. I guess the arguement is whether this is relative to the MVP consideration. This seems subjective and I am fine with that. I personally think it matters but only to a degree.

All that said, Puljos is in a similar situation, maybe not as bad, but similar. And his numbers are better to the degree that they make up for that factor. I am glad Berkmans name came up because he is a stud who does not get quite the pub he should but he should finish second or third.

[overhandgas53]

although i think Berkman is highly underated, he still wont win the NL MVP this year. Everybody's watching the young Ryan Howard blast homers (although he's stuck at 58 right now)

and with soriano reaching for the 45-45 club before the regular season ends, he may have a shot. Pujols is contending for MVP also, being in 2nd with HRs in the NL.

Berkman looks like he'll be disapointed in the race again. What disapoints me is that nobody thinks he's a great player although he has switch-hitting power.

With all the media around Howard, Pujols, and Soriano, Berkman is going home without an MVP award to take with him.:(

[Captain Cold Nose]

He probably won't win it, but the tear he's been on while the Astros have moved well into the playoff race will catch a lot of eyes. I would be very surprised if he finishes out of the top 5.

[candy curveball cummings]

Just what I was thinking. Berkman has the lowest numbers of the top candidates (and not by much), but he also has the worst supporting cast around him. As Baseball Guru said in the first post Biggio is 2nd on the Astros in RBIs with 61. If the Phillies and Cards both fail to make the playoffs I can't see how you could argue that Pujols and Howard deserve the MVP more.

On August 1st, The Astros were 8.5 games back even though he was having a spectacular season. Now they’re in contention. Did Berkman step it up and just start playing at an even higher level? Let’s look:

Before August 1st: .318/ 28 HR/ 91 RBI
After August 1st: .308/ 16 HR/ 40 RBI

Great numbers, but the second line doesn’t look too different from the first. I don’t see how is performance effected the performance of the team. More likely, I think the pitchers in Houston played a pretty major part in this team’s contention. Look at the Astros top 3 starters since August 1st:

Roy Oswalt: 7-1/ 2.50 ERA
Andy Pettitte: 5-2/ 2.50 ERA
Roger Clemens: 5-1/ 2.55 ERA

Sure, the Astros don't have the hitting of the Phils or the Cards but the Phils and Cards don't have the pitching of the Astros.

[holyroman]

no, i am saying just the opposite that the teams performance effects his performance. if he's getting no protection he will just be walked or pitched around. I think the award is Ryan Howard's though

[KissMyAstros]

Because the more I look at him, the more I like him just as much as Howard or Pujols at the moment..



The more I look at him...the more he looks like Vince Gill! I think he has a strong case for MVP based on the cuteness factor alone! ;)

[538280]

I was going to start this thread today as well. Howard has got Chase Utley, Jimmie Rollins, Pat Burrell, and for the majority of the season Bobby Abreu with him. Pujols has Scott Rolen, Chris Duncan, and Jim Edmonds with him. Who has Berkman got? I think Willy Taveras is the only other regular batting over .250.

Morgan Ensberg? He had a great season last year, and while his BA has just sucked this year, he still brings power into the lineup.

[W_Marone]

Could Berkman be the MVP? Yes, will he be the MVP? NO. Does he deserve the MVP this season? NO.

[W_Marone]

I was going to start this thread today as well. Howard has got Chase Utley, Jimmie Rollins, Pat Burrell, and for the majority of the season Bobby Abreu with him. Pujols has Scott Rolen, Chris Duncan, and Jim Edmonds with him. Who has Berkman got? I think Willy Taveras is the only other regular batting over .250.


Pat Burrell? If you consider Pat Burrell a scare then you need to brush up on your baseball.... Jim Edmonds has been out of the lineup for part of the year and not the Jim Edmonds of old, Chris Duncan is a stretch too. Who does Berkman have? He has Clemens, Petite, Oswald, Ensberg, Everrett, Tavaras...those guys are stretching it just as you stretched it? Abreu for most of the year? Half the year buddy. Jimmy Rollins...by the way has just really started to come on really hot in the last three weeks of the season. Utely has been slumping of late after his streak. C'mon man. Berkman is not the MVP and everyone knows it. We're done here.

[EvanAparra]

Pat Burrell? If you consider Pat Burrell a scare then you need to brush up on your baseball.... Jim Edmonds has been out of the lineup for part of the year and not the Jim Edmonds of old, Chris Duncan is a stretch too. Who does Berkman have? He has Clemens, Petite, Oswald, Ensberg, Everrett, Tavaras...those guys are stretching it just as you stretched it? Abreu for most of the year? Half the year buddy. Jimmy Rollins...by the way has just really started to come on really hot in the last three weeks of the season. Utely has been slumping of late after his streak. C'mon man. Berkman is not the MVP and everyone knows it. We're done here.

Berkman isnt the MVP, but Howard has MUCH more protection that Berkman. Everyone has much more protection than Berkman.

[Goooooo]

no. NL MVP = Howard

[candy curveball cummings]

Pat Burrell? If you consider Pat Burrell a scare then you need to brush up on your baseball....


Maybe you need to brush up on yours. Pat Burrell is not the greatest hitter in the world, but he's been better this year than anybody on the Astros team not named Berkman.

[EvanAparra]

Maybe you need to brush up on yours. Pat Burrell is not the greatest hitter in the world, but he's been better this year than anybody on the Astros team not named Berkman.

Touchet. Their offense is pathetic. Burrell would easily be their second best hitter.

[W_Marone]

Maybe you need to brush up on yours. Pat Burrell is not the greatest hitter in the world, but he's been better this year than anybody on the Astros team not named Berkman.

Ok buddy, come see me when you watch the Phillies play everyday...and see just how "great" Pat Burrell is. Me talking about Burrell had nothing at all do do with Berkman. It had to do with me disagreeing with how Burrell is protection in the Lineup. I dont see anyone ever pitch to Ryan Howard to avoid Pat Burrell.....Yeah, watch the Phils and Burrell and then come see me. I think you need to read the post, Burrell had nothing to do with the Astro's protection for Berkman. To me he is the equivelant of Aubry Huff....Look at stats all you want, but watch him play and you'll know why me and everyone else in Philadelphia feel the way we feel about him.

The one thing that the Astro's do have that the other teams don't Pitching, that was the point I was trying to prove....They have Oswalt, Pettite and Clemens.....the Phillies or Cardinals dont have that sort of Rotation, does that take away from his MVP status no? Does he have protection? No, but its not like the Phillies or Cards. have a far far far superior lineup than the Astro's as stated by the first post I beleive.

[candy curveball cummings]

Ok buddy, come see me when you watch the Phillies play everyday...and see just how "great" Pat Burrell is. Me talking about Burrell had nothing at all do do with Berkman. It had to do with me disagreeing with how Burrell is protection in the Lineup. I dont see anyone ever pitch to Ryan Howard to avoid Pat Burrell.....Yeah, watch the Phils and Burrell and then come see me. I think you need to read the post, Burrell had nothing to do with the Astro's protection for Berkman. To me he is the equivelant of Aubry Huff....Look at stats all you want, but watch him play and you'll know why me and everyone else in Philadelphia feel the way we feel about him.

The one thing that the Astro's do have that the other teams don't Pitching, that was the point I was trying to prove....They have Oswalt, Pettite and Clemens.....the Phillies or Cardinals dont have that sort of Rotation, does that take away from his MVP status no? Does he have protection? No, but its not like the Phillies or Cards. have a far far far superior lineup than the Astro's as stated by the first post I beleive.

Let me preface by saying, everything you say in this thread is related to Berkman. It's a Berkman for MVP thread. Your statement was in response to a post saying that the Phillies had more protection than the Astros and proceeded to name players who protect Howard, including Burrell. You took offense to that and made a post about how bad Burrell is. I took offense to that and responded.

Second, I like how you assume just because I disagree with you about the Phillies, that I don't watch the Phillies. I have watch a number of Phillies games via satellite this year as I wanted to see Howard first-hand. I watch many more games after the Phillies acquired Jamie Moyer, my favorite pitcher. You are bias. You don't like Burrell. You are an angry fan. That's cool. But you want to ignore the stats? Why? Because the stats paint a different, more honest picture of the kind of hitter Burrell is. Burrell is not Ryan Howard and no one is saying he is (So you can quit all that stuff about how nobody pitches to Ryan Howard to avoid Burrell). All I am saying, with a number of others here, is that Burrell is a better hitter than every Astro but Berkman. This is true. Burrell would be the second best hitter on that 'Stro team. He isn't the second best hitter on that Phillies team, and probably isn't the third. What this says is that Burrell is more protection for Howard than anyone is for Berkman. If you still insist that the Phillies and Cards don't have a great deal of better hitters than the Astros, I'll post stats to back up my argument. By the way, I was the first one on this thread to point out the Astros pitching (go back and check).


Oh, and for the record, pitchers aren't too cozy with Burrell. He has been walked 95 times this year.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Berkman has a shot at MVP, but the fans are voting for it and i'm 100% positive he won't make it, because he doesn't deserve it.

Honestly, I think people need to not worry about the stats because just because they put up bigger numbers doesn't mean there always the better player, especially when the numbers are this close.

I think Pujols deserves it, but Howard will win it. Pujols might not have as many homers or RBI's which is what alot of people care about. But he strikes out less, he is a great baserunner, and a much better 1st basemen then Howard. Hell, Pujols will probably win a gold glove this year. Those are a couple things the stats can't show. Pujols is a very smart baserunner, might not be the fastest but Tony LaRussa says he is the best baserunner he has ever seen. Stats don't show baserunning, and people always seem to not mind how amazing Pujols is at 1st base. Best 1st basemen in the game, period.

[Baseball Guru]

Berkman has a shot at MVP, but the fans are voting for it and i'm 100% positive he won't make it, because he doesn't deserve it.

huh?:noidea

The fans don't vote for the MVP....

[W_Marone]

Let me preface by saying, everything you say in this thread is related to Berkman. It's a Berkman for MVP thread. Your statement was in response to a post saying that the Phillies had more protection than the Astros and proceeded to name players who protect Howard, including Burrell. You took offense to that and made a post about how bad Burrell is. I took offense to that and responded.

Second, I like how you assume just because I disagree with you about the Phillies, that I don't watch the Phillies. I have watch a number of Phillies games via satellite this year as I wanted to see Howard first-hand. I watch many more games after the Phillies acquired Jamie Moyer, my favorite pitcher. You are bias. You don't like Burrell. You are an angry fan. That's cool. But you want to ignore the stats? Why? Because the stats paint a different, more honest picture of the kind of hitter Burrell is. Burrell is not Ryan Howard and no one is saying he is (So you can quit all that stuff about how nobody pitches to Ryan Howard to avoid Burrell). All I am saying, with a number of others here, is that Burrell is a better hitter than every Astro but Berkman. This is true. Burrell would be the second best hitter on that 'Stro team. He isn't the second best hitter on that Phillies team, and probably isn't the third. What this says is that Burrell is more protection for Howard than anyone is for Berkman. If you still insist that the Phillies and Cards don't have a great deal of better hitters than the Astros, I'll post stats to back up my argument. By the way, I was the first one on this thread to point out the Astros pitching (go back and check).


Oh, and for the record, pitchers aren't too cozy with Burrell. He has been walked 95 times this year.

Bias? You have no idea about I've thought about Pat Burrell this year....before the nationals series I was behind Burrell the whole season....Everyone in this town bashed the Burrell and I stuck behind him, I was one of the few who stuck up for him....Then in nationals series, when you get up to the plate with the basesloaded and dont take the bat off of your shoulders and then the same thing happens with a runner on first and third....same thing, bat on his shoulders....I cant stand behind a guy who plays like that when we need him to hit....And yeah....No one is pitching to Howard to avoid Burrell, no one at all, heck burrell didnt even protect Howard the last 3rd of the season, it was Dellucci or Conine....and Burrell sat the bench more than he played in the last month and a half.... I'm not sure how no one pitching to Howard to avoid Burrell doesnt have anything to do with it becuase it does. I never said Burrell was Howard, because I know he is not. So dont call me bias against Burrell becuase I'm an angry Phillies fan. Becuase I was behind that Bum for almost the entire season. Would he be the second best hitter on the Astros, probably, but thats not what I'm here to point out.
You look at the stats and then you look at how he plays, yeah....thats right, stats seem to be the biggest thing to people on here, not if he can put it together, I'm not talking making a relationship between Berkman and Burrelll at all...I made my points about Berkman being MVP, I was talking of Burrell....dude, Dont tell me one thing about the Phillies acting as if you've watched every game he's palayed this season, and Burrell is magnificent, ask any Phillies fan at all what they think about Burrell. Watching 15 Phillies games and then making a decision is not an sufficent way to judge a guy, watch him play the 100 games he played, then you'll see why Burrell is not high on Philadelphia's list. And its not just the fans, the entire first half of the season the Phillies were looking for a place to dumb Burrell and hope just to get rid of him, they couldnt, but they'll try again in the offseason, so to say its just me being Bias against Burrell, yeah its not just me, or the fans, its the organizatoin that thinks that. All I'm saying, because I know you'll come back with something statistical or something about how you watched every game and know Pat Burrell personally, or you'll say some otehr thing about blah blah blah, and I don't care, Burrell will never be the hitter we thought he was going to be in Philly, not here, and I doubt anywhere.

[W_Marone]

no one of my rants that gets a jumbled together. I think living around here ,though, drinkin probably is the best solution. I wonder if the Phillies Barstool will be opening up anytime soon....(yeah horrible reference to an old thread)

[W_Marone]

I read what he wrote then just went on my rant about burrell, then it led to this and that, if I actually took the time for grammar and transition and all that jazz it would have been better. I'm not sure of half the stuff that cat said about Burrell. I wasnt saying anything about Burrell not being better than the stro's, then he confused me with his Howard getting pitched to thing about burrell, I thought it was part of what I was trying to say, I think what I said go misinterpreted, I was arguing against Pat, and he turned it into some astro's thing. Yada Yada Yada, yeah, I dont like to write about stuff like this because, as we all know I get fired up pretty easy when someone says something about the Phils that I disagree with. But hey whatever. To each thier own I say. I'm actually quite confused myself.

[candy curveball cummings]

Bias? You have no idea about I've thought about Pat Burrell this year....before the nationals series I was behind Burrell the whole season....Everyone in this town bashed the Burrell and I stuck behind him, I was one of the few who stuck up for him....Then in nationals series, when you get up to the plate with the basesloaded and dont take the bat off of your shoulders and then the same thing happens with a runner on first and third....same thing, bat on his shoulders....I cant stand behind a guy who plays like that when we need him to hit....And yeah....No one is pitching to Howard to avoid Burrell, no one at all, heck burrell didnt even protect Howard the last 3rd of the season, it was Dellucci or Conine....and Burrell sat the bench more than he played in the last month and a half.... I'm not sure how no one pitching to Howard to avoid Burrell doesnt have anything to do with it becuase it does. I never said Burrell was Howard, because I know he is not. So dont call me bias against Burrell becuase I'm an angry Phillies fan. Becuase I was behind that Bum for almost the entire season. Would he be the second best hitter on the Astros, probably, but thats not what I'm here to point out.
You look at the stats and then you look at how he plays, yeah....thats right, stats seem to be the biggest thing to people on here, not if he can put it together, I'm not talking making a relationship between Berkman and Burrelll at all...I made my points about Berkman being MVP, I was talking of Burrell....dude, Dont tell me one thing about the Phillies acting as if you've watched every game he's palayed this season, and Burrell is magnificent, ask any Phillies fan at all what they think about Burrell. Watching 15 Phillies games and then making a decision is not an sufficent way to judge a guy, watch him play the 100 games he played, then you'll see why Burrell is not high on Philadelphia's list. And its not just the fans, the entire first half of the season the Phillies were looking for a place to dumb Burrell and hope just to get rid of him, they couldnt, but they'll try again in the offseason, so to say its just me being Bias against Burrell, yeah its not just me, or the fans, its the organizatoin that thinks that. All I'm saying, because I know you'll come back with something statistical or something about how you watched every game and know Pat Burrell personally, or you'll say some otehr thing about blah blah blah, and I don't care, Burrell will never be the hitter we thought he was going to be in Philly, not here, and I doubt anywhere.


No where did I say Burrell was magnificent. Not one place did I say that. I said Burrell is better than anyone not named Berkman on the Astros team. It goes towards the argument that Berkman has less protection than Howard. Are you telling me that the Astros have had better hitters this year than the Burrell? Who? Get off Burrell. He's not that bad. I have seen him play a significant number of times this year (around 45 or 50), so don't act as if I'm simply looking at a stats sheet. I am, but I also have a frame of reference as to how the guy actually plays. He's not great, but he's better than average and is better than the majority of the hitters on the Astros team. You are completely missing my point here. You're right, he's not magnificent, he's not great. He's better than anyone in an Astros uniform this year other than Berkman, and that is a testament as to how bad of protection Berkman has gotten this year.

Before you make rants about peoples posts, you should read their posts. I don't think Burrell is a great hitter. I've said this a NUMBER of times. I don't think he's anywhere near the level of Ryan Howard. He is however, better than the rest of the Astros lineup. If it feels as if this post is repetitive, it's because I'm trying to get you to understand what I am trying to say.

[nolanryan5714]

Berkman had a career year this season, and although he virtually carried the Astros on his back all alone offensively, the edge goes to Pujols in my opinion.

[Zagi-CRO]

1. Pujols
2. Berkman
3. Cabrera
4. Howard
5. Ch.Jones

[Brannu]

Without Pujols The Cardinals do not come close to the post-season. With Howard and Berkman ... their respective teams did not get into the post-season. They got close ... but, not close enough.

It appears to my limited vision that Pujols has this in the bag.

[Skin & Bones]

Berkman had a career year this season, and although he virtually carried the Astros on his back all alone offensively, the edge goes to Pujols in my opinion.

Career year ?

This was just another typical Berkman year.

[EvanAparra]

Career year ?

This was just another typical Berkman year.

A case could be made that this was his career year.. Berkman hasnt shown this much power since 2001.

[Skin & Bones]

A case could be made that this was his career year.. Berkman hasnt shown this much power since 2001.

A career year is when you have a year much better than what you had previously. Like Beltre in 2004, or Norm Cash in 1961. Berkman may have had his best " power " year, but this season certainly isn't an outlier in his career.

[EvanAparra]

A career year is when you have a year much better than what you had previously. Like Beltre in 2004, or Norm Cash in 1961. Berkman may have had his best " power " year, but this season certainly isn't an outlier in his career.

I wasn't aware that there was a correct definition for career year. I can't speak for NR up there, but I saw a lot of Astros games this year (and I hate the Astros) and the fact that he had so many big hits, and still was able to put up those numbers with absolutely NO protection around him makes this a career year for him, IMO.

[Skin & Bones]

I wasn't aware that there was a correct definition for career year. I can't speak for NR up there, but I saw a lot of Astros games this year (and I hate the Astros) and the fact that he had so many big hits, and still was able to put up those numbers with absolutely NO protection around him makes this a career year for him, IMO.

Well, just out of curiousity, besides the poster, and now you, how many have said this is berkman's " career year " ?

Just looking at OPS+, it shows this to be tied for the second best year of his career with 2004. His highest OPS+ was in 2001.

[EvanAparra]

Well, just out of curiousity, besides the poster, and now you, how many have said this is berkman's " career year " ?

Just looking at OPS+, it shows this to be tied for the second best year of his career with 2004. His highest OPS+ was in 2001.

I know plenty of people that have thought that this has been Berkman's best year... I hate the Astros but I know how big Berkman came up for them this year. Why do you look at OPS+ and ignore what I said about him going that with absolutely no protection... when in other years he had Bagwell right there for him.

By the way... he hit .382 this year with RISP, and .405 with RISP with 2 outs.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Berkman was as important to the Astros as Pujols was to the Cards, but Pujols was better by any measure.

I had him 4th in the NL MVP race.

[Skin & Bones]

I know plenty of people that have thought that this has been Berkman's best year... I hate the Astros but I know how big Berkman came up for them this year. Why do you look at OPS+ and ignore what I said about him going that with absolutely no protection... when in other years he had Bagwell right there for him.

By the way... he hit .382 this year with RISP, and .405 with RISP with 2 outs.

This being his " best year " is different from calling this his career year. Roger Clemens best year was in 1997, but it wasn't a career year.

As to your protection comment, if anything, having less elite batters in the lineup helped him see more pitches, thus giving him a chance to swing the bat more often.

[EvanAparra]

As to your protection comment, if anything, having less elite batters in the lineup helped him see more pitches, thus giving him a chance to swing the bat more often.

Helped him see more pitches? What the heck are you talking about? Ok, lets take Manny away from Papi, he wont see more pitches... Thats just RIDICULOUS. He was pitched around so much this year because, I dont know about you, but those pitchers decided they would rather face Jason Lane and Preston Wilson than Berkman.

[Skin & Bones]

Helped him see more pitches? What the heck are you talking about? Ok, lets take Manny away from Papi, he wont see more pitches... Thats just RIDICULOUS. He was pitched around so much this year because, I dont know about you, but those pitchers decided they would rather face Jason Lane and Preston Wilson than Berkman.
Then why is this his first season since 2001 that he had less than 100 walks, while playing over 150 games ?

[EvanAparra]

He had over 100 walks 3 times in his career. 2 times it was 107. This year he had 98. Not exactly as big as you would like to make one think. One of those year he had 40 more ABs. In 04, he had 20 more walks than any other year in his career, and I doubt that had anything to do with pitchers fearing him more in that year. With as small a discrepency as you state, the variables can and will take over.

I'll take watching a hell of a lot of Astros games, on tv and in person, over you just looking at the stats and telling me if this was his best year or not. Even though on paper it still might be arguably his best year.

[Skin & Bones]

He had over 100 walks 3 times in his career. 2 times it was 107. This year he had 98. Not exactly as big as you would like to make one think. One of those year he had 40 more ABs. In 04, he had 20 more walks than any other year in his career, and I doubt that had anything to do with pitchers fearing him more in that year. With as small a discrepency as you state, the variables can and will take over.

I'll take watching a hell of a lot of Astros games, on tv and in person, over you just looking at the stats and telling me if this was his best year or not. Even though on paper it still might be arguably his best year.

I never said this wasn't his best year, I just said it wasn't a career year. This season isn't an outlier in his career, no way shape or form. He's been consistent throughout his career when healthy, and this season is NOT much better than anything he put together before, if at all.

[EvanAparra]

I never said this wasn't his best year, I just said it wasn't a career year. This season isn't an outlier in his career, no way shape or form. He's been consistent throughout his career when healthy, and this season is NOT much better than anything he put together before, if at all.

Well I guess your definition of career year is different than mine. This year reminded me of 02 somewhat. But his hitting with the game on the line, or even just with RISP was just incredible this year over .100 better than most years. But, its all a moot point, because this is about his chances for MVP. I think he is 3rd, mayyyyybe even 2nd, but there is no way he will win it.

[Imapotato]

The more I look at him...the more he looks like Vince Gill! I think he has a strong case for MVP based on the cuteness factor alone! ;)


You know you spend too much time on Baseball Fever when an old girlfriend finds you via the site :)

Jessica, I cannot believe you are an Astros fan growing up in Wichita Falls...what about those Rangers?

[Rookie1914]

First of all...MVP should be for individual performances. You are at the plate by yourself and in the field all alone. It's not a team effort really. If a team doesn't make a playoff birth, the MANAGER, not the player should be penalized. Therefore the MANAGER should not be up for Manager of the year. Makes sense right? Also, someone above mentioned Derek Lee last year. He got screwed. He won the Silver Slugger award and Gold Glove and NO MVP??? Makes no sense. For those of you who don't know what the Silver Slugger award is...it's for the best batter at his respected position. Howard is the clear choice for this years MVP and no I am not saying it because I too graduated from Missouri State [Go Bears]. Howard hit an amazing .355 the second half of the season!!! Pujols was also injured while Howard stuck it out for 159 games. There you have it.

[Krylon]

First of all...MVP should be for individual performances. You are at the plate by yourself and in the field all alone. It's not a team effort really. If a team doesn't make a playoff birth, the MANAGER, not the player should be penalized. Therefore the MANAGER should not be up for Manager of the year. Makes sense right? Also, someone above mentioned Derek Lee last year. He got screwed. He won the Silver Slugger award and Gold Glove and NO MVP??? Makes no sense. For those of you who don't know what the Silver Slugger award is...it's for the best batter at his respected position. Howard is the clear choice for this years MVP and no I am not saying it because I too graduated from Missouri State [Go Bears]. Howard hit an amazing .355 the second half of the season!!! Pujols was also injured while Howard stuck it out for 159 games. There you have it.

Ryan Howard has as much claim to the NL MVP as Neifi Perez - none whatsoever. Howard has not been anywhere near as valuable as Pujols.

[EvanAparra]

Thank you Rook! I was waiting for your "this is how it is" speech on this particular subject.


For those of you who don't know what the Silver Slugger award is...it's for the best batter at his respected position.

:rolleyes:

Howard hit an amazing .355 the second half of the season!!! Pujols was also injured while Howard stuck it out for 159 games. There you have it.

Well if this was the second half of the season award, he's be a shoo-in.

And yeah, Pujols got hurt for a couple weeks.... his fault, he should be stripped of all stats as well.

[W_Marone]

Ryan Howard has as much claim to the NL MVP as Neifi Perez - none whatsoever. Howard has not been anywhere near as valuable as Pujols.

C'mon lets make it a good comparsion not to nefie perez, to say that Howard's name belongs no where in the mix for MVP is retarded. He's top two, and number one to me.

[Skin & Bones]

C'mon lets make it a good comparsion not to nefie perez, to say that Howard's name belongs no where in the mix for MVP is retarded. He's top two, and number one to me.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with you being a Phillies fan right :D

[W_Marone]

It does ;) , but its not the main factor, trust me, for more information on the matter, please check the Ryan Howard for MVP thread.

[Rookie1914]

I can't argue with you ignorance. Howard's protection went to the Yankees [B. Abreu]. He still had the most HR and RBI in the NL. He also batted what...313? It's Howard's year.

[RBi]

Stop it you two.

[hubkittel]

an interesting fact: according to similarity scores over at baseball reference, the most similiar batter to albert pujols is lance berkman.