Look out Mauch (Cards and Stros)

[Ubiquitous]

As of Sept 26 at around 9:15 pm central time the Houston Astros have won and the Padres just put up a 4 spot on the Cards in the 7th to take the lead. If the Padres manage to hold on it will mean the Astro will be 1.5 games back with 5 games to go. The Astro will have won 7 in a row and the Cardinals will have lost 7 in a row. This has got to be getting pretty close to a record.


Everybody in the world had written off the NL Central, everybody assumed the Cardinals would win the division for many months now, and poof within a week it all seems so doubtful. To top it all off it is a team that I don't think anyobdy was counting on making a run to the title for much of this season. How many people would have said the Astros would run the Cardinals down? Heck even the Reds have a shot at the title now too.

So is Houston going nuts right now?

Is St. Louis tearing their hair out?

Do Houston fans think they can chase the Cards down. Do Cards fans think the Cards can hold on?

What an exciting time in baseball!

[geezer]

Houston is playing inspired, the Cards are just panicking!!!!

[hubkittel]

the cards just lost and this whole thing is getting tough to watch. they blew yet another 5-2 lead tonight (third or fourth in the last week). i've never seen anything like this. a week ago, the division was in the bag-a magic number of five with something like 12 to play. they had the second best record in the league and were set to host the first two games of the nlds. now, even if they get in (a big if), they would open on the road. i'm too perplexed to do the math but i think they win the division out right if they win three of four-assuming houston wins out. plus they have a make up game with the giants in hand if needed. anybody know where a one game playoff between the cards and astros would be played? i don't know what to think anymore.:hp :confused: :grouchy :( :noidea :confused: :crazy :eek: :mad: :hp

[STLCards2]

The Cardinals don't deserve the playoffs. If they lose their next game, it will be the Cardinals' third 8-game losing streak of the season. No team with two such streaks has made the playoffs. This is not a good team.

As far as the Astros, how bad is the NL when a team wins 7 straight to pull within 1.5 games of the division leader, while still being at or under .500? (They might be 1 over now, or so), Either way, nothing to get too excited about. Sorry Houston fans, the 'Stros are not a good team either.

So one of them or the equally inept Reds will sneak into the playoffs and lose. Even if they sneak past the other weak NL contenders (and yes, the Mets without a healthy Pedro are nothing exciting either), they will get throttled by the AL winner.

I am not suprised at the Cardinals collapse at all. They have played poor baseball all year. Many of their wins occured when the other team played worse.

Maybe now the Cardinals' organization will stop all of the reclemation projects.

[Astro]

Why'd you have to make this thread, now the Astros are done for

[Astro]

the cards just lost and this whole thing is getting tough to watch. they blew yet another 5-2 lead tonight (third or fourth in the last week). i've never seen anything like this. a week ago, the division was in the bag-a magic number of five with something like 12 to play. they had the second best record in the league and were set to host the first two games of the nlds. now, even if they get in (a big if), they would open on the road. i'm too perplexed to do the math but i think they win the division out right if they win three of four-assuming houston wins out. plus they have a make up game with the giants in hand if needed. anybody know where a one game playoff between the cards and astros would be played? i don't know what to think anymore.:hp :confused: :grouchy :( :noidea :confused: :crazy :eek: :mad: :hp
If a playoff between Houston and St. Louis is needed, it will be played at Minute Made Park in Houston

[EvanAparra]

If a playoff between Houston and St. Louis is needed, it will be played at Minute Made Park in Houston

Why would one be needed? They can just use their head to head match up, unless a head-to-head game was cancelled and they tie the season series 9-9

[hubkittel]

If a playoff between Houston and St. Louis is needed, it will be played at Minute Made Park in Houston

thanks for the info. it would be a heck of a game and really add to the rivalry. but i don't know if i could stomach it.

[hubkittel]

Why would one be needed? They can just use their head to head match up, unless a head-to-head game was cancelled and they tie the season series 9-9

check out this thread: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=50485 with thanks to chisox73

[Astro]

Why would one be needed? They can just use their head to head match up, unless a head-to-head game was cancelled and they tie the season series 9-9
Because the MLB isnt dumb like the NFL, if teams are tied after the entire season they have the teams play to see who should make the playoffs

[EvanAparra]

check out this thread: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=50485 with thanks to chisox73

Ah good stuff. I thought of the season series thing because of the NY-BOS tie last year, didnt realize it was a one game playoffs if both teams were not assured a playoff spot. A one game playoff is much better than a technical tiebreaker.

[geezer]

And to make matters difficult, the Cardinals may play that game against the Giants that was cancelled due to rain.

[Ubiquitous]

It has nothing to do with intelligence but with how the two games are played. The NFL plays one game a week and a grand total of 16 a year per team. Teams with the exact same record are highly likely, also it is much much more likely that many teams will end up with the same record. Not having some sort of tie breaker would end up causing the playoffs probably to not be started until sometime in February with some teams playing 2 or three extra tie breaking games.

Baseball with 162 games and only one wild card makes it much much easier to play one game for all the marbles and not have the playoffs delayed. It was a lot easier before Wild Card but even with the WC it is still much easier to play a game in baseball then in football.

[Solair Wright]

And to make matters difficult, the Cardinals may play that game against the Giants that was cancelled due to rain.

San Francisco is eliminated from the playoffs, so it would be meaningless to play a game where it was postponed due to rain. The edge is: Astros play 162, while the Cardinals this year will only play 161 games. Meaning, if the 'stros win the rest and the Cardinals are like 1/2 of a game behind, the Cards will watch the postseason for the first time since 2003.

[Ubiquitous]

No they won't if the difference between the Cardinals and anybody else for a playoff spot is a .5 game then they will have to play the Giants game. It makes no difference whether or not the Giants are eliminated.

[Astro]

San Francisco is eliminated from the playoffs, so it would be meaningless to play a game where it was postponed due to rain. The edge is: Astros play 162, while the Cardinals this year will only play 161 games. Meaning, if the 'stros win the rest and the Cardinals are like 1/2 of a game behind, the Cards will watch the postseason for the first time since 2003.
Uhhh... lol

No, they play the game if it matters... not really sure how you got that

[hubkittel]

the cards and astros ended up tied for the division a couple of years ago but both teams were assured of playoff spots-one was going to be division champs and the other the wild card. rather than have a one game playoff to decide the thing (a game to essentially to decide playoff seeding), the astros took the division crown based on having won the season series (thank you jeff tabaka). the cards, even though they were officially the wild card team, claimed the division championship (or rather a co-division championship), raising a banner and all of that. i think that claim to the division title was the one thing that really stoked the rivalry between the teams (at least on the houston side-although i shouldn't speak for astro fans.)

[ESPNFan]

the cards and astros ended up tied for the division a couple of years ago but both teams were assured of playoff spots-one was going to be division champs and the other the wild card. rather than have a one game playoff to decide the thing (a game to essentially to decide playoff seeding), the astros took the division crown based on having won the season series (thank you jeff tabaka). the cards, even though they were officially the wild card team, claimed the division championship (or rather a co-division championship), raising a banner and all of that. i think that claim to the division title was the one thing that really stoked the rivalry between the teams (at least on the houston side-although i shouldn't speak for astro fans.)

A similar thing happened last year with the Red Sox and Yanks as well.
But I think that the rivalry there needed little added ammo :laugh

[geezer]

No they won't if the difference between the Cardinals and anybody else for a playoff spot is a .5 game then they will have to play the Giants game. It makes no difference whether or not the Giants are eliminated.

Since the Cardinals are fighting for a playoff spot, the game if necessary must be made up, this next Monday.

[hubkittel]

Since the Cardinals are fighting for a playoff spot, the game if necessary must be made up, this next Monday.

so how would they fit in the one game playoff between cards/astros? would the cards have to play the giants game in the day and then fly to houston and face the astros? that would be a lot to ask. or would it be a monday game with the giants, a tuesday game with the astros, and a wednesday game against mets or whoever? of course, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here and most likely this scenario isn't going to come up.

[Astro]

so how would they fit in the one game playoff between cards/astros? would the cards have to play the giants game in the day and then fly to houston and face the astros? that would be a lot to ask. or would it be a monday game with the giants, a tuesday game with the astros, and a wednesday game against mets or whoever? of course, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here and most likely this scenario isn't going to come up.
Monday - Giants
Tuesday - Astros

Not sure when the playoffs start

[nolanryan5714]

As far as the Astros, how bad is the NL when a team wins 7 straight to pull within 1.5 games of the division leader, while still being at or under .500? (They might be 1 over now, or so), Either way, nothing to get too excited about. Sorry Houston fans, the 'Stros are not a good team either.

I beg to differ. Although they aren't a "mighty" team filled with superstars, so was the case last year.

Additionally, if they do make it to the playoffs, then you can't say they aren't a good team. I don't believe after 162 games that "bad" teams make it to the postseason.

It'll just be an incredible story, even topping last year's improbable comeback.

[DTF955]

Uhhh... lol

No, they play the game if it matters... not really sure how you got that

Perhaps looking at 1972? The rules were changed after that year because the Red Sox finished a half game behind the Tigers and failed to make the playoffs. IIRC, the next year, the Mets and Cubs played a makeup doubleheader on the day after the last day of the regular season because the Mets were 81-79 and the 2nd place team (Cardinals I think) were 81-81. When the Mets won the first game, the second wasn't played, being unnecessary.

It's also possible the rule was only for 1972 because of the strike cancelling a number of games per team. But, IIRC in the A.L. a team finished half a game ahead of another in 1908 and won.

I think if the Giants had to play a meaningless game like that it would be hard to get them motivated; then again, if they did win, they'd be part of history, and have a hand in the playoffs, so who knows.

[holyroman]

the cards and astros ended up tied for the division a couple of years ago but both teams were assured of playoff spots-one was going to be division champs and the other the wild card. rather than have a one game playoff to decide the thing (a game to essentially to decide playoff seeding), the astros took the division crown based on having won the season series (thank you jeff tabaka). the cards, even though they were officially the wild card team, claimed the division championship (or rather a co-division championship), raising a banner and all of that. i think that claim to the division title was the one thing that really stoked the rivalry between the teams (at least on the houston side-although i shouldn't speak for astro fans.)
yes as an Astros fan this stoked me the first time we went to St Louis I saw that banner and thought what a joke who puts up a co-division winner banner when you won the wild card. But thats just my opinion.

[KCGHOST]

Because the MLB isnt dumb like the NFL, if teams are tied after the entire season they have the teams play to see who should make the playoffs


That's not correct. Just last season the Yanks and Red Sox tied for the AL East lead. No play off was needed as MLB uses head-to-head to sort these things out. The only one game play-offs you will see from now on will be if the wild card is involved.

[DTF955]

No, there will be division playoffs when the teams do not both qualify for the playoffs. As with 1995 and California and Seattle.

It's funny, with the NFL it's the actual tiebraking system, but MLB with this format has made things even weirder because the complexity is over when there *is* a tiebraker. :-) Leave it to Bud... :-)

[EvanAparra]

That's not correct. Just last season the Yanks and Red Sox tied for the AL East lead. No play off was needed as MLB uses head-to-head to sort these things out. The only one game play-offs you will see from now on will be if the wild card is involved.

The reason the Sox and Yanks didnt have a playoffs was because they were both guaranteed to make the playoffs. If the teams are tied atop the standings, and one isnt guaranteed to go to the playoffs, then a one game playoff will be played.

[hudsonharden]

The Cardinals new theme song should be "Give It Away" by the Red Hot Chili Peppers

[EvanAparra]

Surprisingly, the Astros playoff chances are still only about 14-16%.

[DoubleX]

I think this could be one of those instances when the Cardinals will be very thankful that the season ends at 162 games. I think the Cardinals will just hold off the Astros (and Reds), but a couple of more games would be the end for the Cardinals.

[geezer]

I think this could be one of those instances when the Cardinals will be very thankful that the season ends at 162 games. I think the Cardinals will just hold off the Astros (and Reds), but a couple of more games would be the end for the Cardinals.

They gotta start right now.

[STLCards2]

I beg to differ. Although they aren't a "mighty" team filled with superstars, so was the case last year.

Additionally, if they do make it to the playoffs, then you can't say they aren't a good team. I don't believe after 162 games that "bad" teams make it to the postseason.

It'll just be an incredible story, even topping last year's improbable comeback.


Why did you quote "bad?" I never said the 'Stros were "bad." I said "the 'Stros are not a good team either." There is a difference between "bad" and "not that good."

Do you honestly think this Houston team, which may be under .500 at the end of the season while playing in the pathetic NL as being good? Come on. Are you that much of a homer? Houston is average at best.

And yes, I can say they aren't good even if they make it to the playoffs. The San Diego Padres were not a good team last year, and they made the playoffs. The Rams made the NFC playoffs with a 8-8 record going against the horrible NFC West all year. They were not a good team either.

So if Houston finishes 2 games over and makes the playoffs, they are good...but if they miss the playoffs by 1 game, they aren't good? You think one game out of 162 makes the difference between good and not good just because that one game puts the team in the playoffs?

[STLCards2]

Surprisingly, the Astros playoff chances are still only about 14-16%.

With Marquis, Weaver, and Reyes pitching 4 of the next 6 games, Houston's playoff chances jump to about 85%.:laugh :laugh :laugh

[Astro]

And Houston is trailing 6-1 in the 6th so far tonight...

I have to blame Manager Phil Garner for this, when you have a rookie SP starting in a big game you have to have one of the best play calling catchers in baseball behind the plate, I dont care if Ausmus is 0-for-500 on the season

[W_Marone]

And Houston is trailing 6-1 in the 6th so far tonight...

I have to blame Manager Phil Garner for this, when you have a rookie SP starting in a big game you have to have one of the best play calling catchers in baseball behind the plate, I dont care if Ausmus is 0-for-500 on the season

I'll agree with that.

[drtybUsch025]

What is the Astros team pitching ERA this year?

[Astro]

Houston scored 4 in the 6th, 6-5 Prats now

[W_Marone]

I would be exstatic if the Cardnials and the God of baseball Albert Pujols (rolls eyes) miss the playoffs.

[STLCards2]

edited

sorry

[W_Marone]

sorry Cards fan, I'm just tough on Albert Pujols, hahaha I was actually curious as to what you had typed, PM me with what you had, I really am curious. I wasnt trying to be a, well you know what, but I just think Pujols is put on a Pedestal to most of the Baseball world.

[hubkittel]

sorry Cards fan, I'm just tough on Albert Pujols, hahaha I was actually curious as to what you had typed, PM me with what you had, I really am curious. I wasnt trying to be a, well you know what, but I just think Pujols is put on a Pedestal to most of the Baseball world.

it's cool if you don't like El Hombre or the cards. as baseball fans we all have our own personal bias-we all have teams and players we don't like for nothing other than personal/emotional reasons. not a problem. but the reason pujols is on a pedestal is because of the historic nature of the start of his career.

Similar Batters through Age 25

1. Joe DiMaggio (905)
2. Frank Robinson (894)
3. Jimmie Foxx (891)
4. Hank Aaron (883)

Most Similar by Age

21-Joe DiMaggio (961)
22-Joe DiMaggio (938)
23-Joe DiMaggio (951)
24-Joe DiMaggio (928)
25-Joe DiMaggio (905)

now he may fade or he may suffer an injury or whatever, but we're looking at a guy in pujols who right now is basicly joe d as a hitter. who would have ever thought that we'd see that? so i'd say that that's something to celebrate.

the other reason he's on a pedestal is that he's seen-after the bonds/mcgwire/sosa/palmero era-as being clean. whether he is or not, i don't know but we're rooting for guys like him and howard, etc because we hope they're clean and that the things that they're achieving are free of taint. that's something that we need in this era of baseball.

[Astro]

And Houston ties the game in the top of the 9th, with 2 out, off a Luke Scott single

Going to the bottom of the 9th, its 6-6

The Cards and Pads are tied, 1-1, in the 7th

[cardsfanatic]

sorry Cards fan, I'm just tough on Albert Pujols, hahaha I was actually curious as to what you had typed, PM me with what you had, I really am curious. I wasnt trying to be a, well you know what, but I just think Pujols is put on a Pedestal to most of the Baseball world.

Well, I know I'll be labled a homer just because I was lucky enough to be a fan of the team that Pujols is part of. So I say this with that in mind and fully aware it's probably coming.

But, I think the reason Pujols is hyped is, because... well, he's a tremendous player.

Few guys in the entire history of the game (a history with 100,000+ players) have started their career at the torrid pace Albert has. In fact, only four players have started their career at the same pace or better than Albert.

Then take into account his aveage season so far is: .332, .419, .627 with counting stats of 192 hits, 42 doubles, 42 homers, 124 runs, 126 RBI, 6 stolen abses, only 65 strikeous for a power hitter!!!, 82 base on balls... and, uhhh, I think the guy just might be great.

[geezer]

Make it 2-1 Padres in the Bottom of the 8th.

[hubkittel]

Make it 2-1 Padres in the Bottom of the 8th.

on an error by rolen to advance the runner to third followed by a wild pitch. when the going gets tough, the weak fold like a cheap suit. come on, pittsburgh!

[W_Marone]

Mean while the Phillies are having trouble finishing off the Nationals.:ughh

[geezer]

on an error by rolen to advance the runner to third followed by a wild pitch. when the going gets tough, the weak fold like a cheap suit. come on, pittsburgh!

Wish granted, Pittsburgh wins 7-6 in 11 innings

[hubkittel]

and now pujols is hitting with runners on first and second, two outs in the bottom of the eight. padres are making the pitching change.

[hubkittel]

crush by pujols! cards lead 4-2!

[EvanAparra]

MVP MVP MVP! Nice job Albert!

[hubkittel]

Wish granted, Pittsburgh wins 7-6 in 11 innings

i heard that report too but i'm "watching" the game on yahoo game channel and houston is batting in the top of the 12th-still tied 6-6.

[cardsfanatic]

MVP MVP MVP! Nice job Albert!

He's my MVP right now. :)

[EvanAparra]

i heard that report too but i'm "watching" the game on yahoo game channel and houston is batting in the top of the 12th-still tied 6-6.

Yeah i dont know where he got that. Theyre in the 12th right now. Im literally watching it.

[hubkittel]

the streak is over! cards win! cards win! magic number down to four with four to play.

[hubkittel]

Yeah i dont know where he got that. Theyre in the 12th right now. Im literally watching it.

they said that pitt had won on the cards radio broadcast. i got the computer and radio going in this room and the tv broadcast on in the other room. i'm geeking out on the pennant race. :laugh

[EvanAparra]

Wow, they must have felt dumb when they realized they were wrong... how do you get something like that wrong??

[hubkittel]

we were all jumping up and down over here and then i checked the computer...whoops.

[geezer]

MVP MVP MVP! Nice job Albert!

Finally, the Cards showed signs of life tonight, and BTW the Houston-Pittsburgh game is still on in the 13th.

[Ubiquitous]

Looks like Houston is going to keep pace with a win tonight. I was really hoping the Cardinals would lose that game. Oh well still 5 games left but it would have been a lot easier on the Stro's if the Cardinals had lost it.

I know there are pletny of games left but I think this win for the Cards pretty much guarantees them at least a tie. I know I know Milwaukee on paper is going to be putting their best pitchers out there. Capuano, Sheets, Villanueva, and Davis. But . . . Davis hasn't really been good this year. I'm thinking at the very least the Cards split that series. Which means the Astros have to go 4-0 to guarantee a tie or 3-1 and force it to come down to the rainout. 2-2 basically kills them and 3-1 hurts them badly. Can they run the table? I don't know but things as of right now do make it easier, Brewers best pitchers, Astros play weaker teams, but I still say that after today the Cards have basically got the central.

[hubkittel]

I still say that after today the Cards have basically got the central.

i'd feel better if the cards had a five game lead with four to play. :D

[Ubiquitous]

The Astros are leading 3-0 in the 7th. Looks like 9 in a row!!

Did some research over in the history forum and so far I haven't found anybody who went 12-0 or better to end the season, or close to it in terms of going undefeated for a large amount of games, and needed all the wins. I have found some needs that needed to go 12-0 but fell short. But it looks like the Astros could very well be the first team in the history of baseball to go 12-0 to end a season and needed all of those wins to clinch the playoffs. WE're watching history folks!

[Ubiquitous]

Okay the game is not over with but the Cards are losing 9-1 against the one pitcher I thought they would be most likely to beat. So now the Astros will be a half game back. Heck even the Reds will be only 2.5 back. That loss last night for the Reds really killed it for them.

So if the Cards blow it will the feat haunt LaRussa for rest of time like it did for Mauch?

Is it possible in this day and age where many teams make the playoffs in multiple ways for a team to be remembered for a collapse? Like the way the Phillies, Cubs, and Giants are remembered.

[hubkittel]

So if the Cards blow it will the feat haunt LaRussa for rest of time like it did for Mauch?

i don't think that the cards collapse gets pinned on larussa. i'm not a big tlr fan but the general concensous around stl is that tlr wasn't given the horses this year. on top of that, you have to consider the injuries to pujols, carpenter, izzy, edmonds, eckstein, etc. larussa has never really been accepted in stl and if this could be pinned on him, folks around here would be calling for his head. but it's not happening-yet. people are more angry with dewitt and the ownership group for pocketing all that fat new stadium money and trying to fill holes with cheapy free agents. i think walt jockety is also being spared a lot of the heat that's being focused on ownership.

another thing to remember is that this team just isn't very good. they've had two eight game losing streaks and this recent seven gamer. the pitching is not good-can't strike anybody out, too many balls in play, too many home runs. izzy was on pace to set a record for blown saves. bad, bad pitching. and there isn't a lot of power on the hitting side. they play station to station baseball, hit into a lot of dp's, have an atrocious sb%, and strand lots of guys on base. about six weeks ago, the hardball times ran win estimates for everyteam and projected the cardinals out to 80 wins-so even a while back their numbers said they were going to have a hard time winning the division.

off the top of my head, i think the high point of the season was in may when they were 31-15. so they've been playing sub .500 ball for a long time now.
everybody had their number after the first eight game losing streak. it just became accepted that this wasn't a good team and they would be lucky to make the playoffs. i actually went so far as to say, at the beginning of august, that they would finish third (which btw is still possible). while everybody was a little more comfortable with this team a week ago (hoping for the best in october), no one thought that this was a world series team and now everyone just kind of seems resigned to bad ending to the season-whatever form that bad ending takes.

so i don't think this is going to stigmatize larussa in anyway-it's not that kind of collapse. this is the collapse of a mediocre team-not the collapse of a potential pennant or world series winner.

[STLCards2]

i don't think that the cards collapse gets pinned on larussa. i'm not a big tlr fan but the general concensous around stl is that tlr wasn't given the horses this year. on top of that, you have to consider the injuries to pujols, carpenter, izzy, edmonds, eckstein, etc. larussa has never really been accepted in stl and if this could be pinned on him, folks around here would be calling for his head. but it's not happening-yet. people are more angry with dewitt and the ownership group for pocketing all that fat new stadium money and trying to fill holes with cheapy free agents. i think walt jockety is also being spared a lot of the heat that's being focused on ownership.

another thing to remember is that this team just isn't very good. they've had two eight game losing streaks and this recent seven gamer. the pitching is not good-can't strike anybody out, too many balls in play, too many home runs. izzy was on pace to set a record for blown saves. bad, bad pitching. and there isn't a lot of power on the hitting side. they play station to station baseball, hit into a lot of dp's, have an atrocious sb%, and strand lots of guys on base. about six weeks ago, the hardball times ran win estimates for everyteam and projected the cardinals out to 80 wins-so even a while back their numbers said they were going to have a hard time winning the division.

off the top of my head, i think the high point of the season was in may when they were 31-15. so they've been playing sub .500 ball for a long time now.
everybody had their number after the first eight game losing streak. it just became accepted that this wasn't a good team and they would be lucky to make the playoffs. i actually went so far as to say, at the beginning of august, that they would finish third (which btw is still possible). while everybody was a little more comfortable with this team a week ago (hoping for the best in october), no one thought that this was a world series team and now everyone just kind of seems resigned to bad ending to the season-whatever form that bad ending takes.

so i don't think this is going to stigmatize larussa in anyway-it's not that kind of collapse. this is the collapse of a mediocre team-not the collapse of a potential pennant or world series winner.

I agree. Larussa is not the main problem (that will come in the playoffs if we get there) The main problem is...the team isn't that good, for all of the previously mentioned reasons and then some.

[geezer]

I right now the Cards are losing again against the Drunks 8-1, and the Cards have only 2 hits, one of them was a Preston Wilson solo homer.

[mojorisin71]

It's officially ½ game right now. This is getting ugly.

[Ubiquitous]

So how pumped do you think the Giants are going to be for that makeup game? I guess we will see how professional they are if they have to play that one.

[mojorisin71]

At this rate, there probably won't be a makeup game. The difference between the Astros and Cards has to be ½ game to be made up. The Cards won't split the series and the Astros won't lose 2 out of 3 to the Braves.

[Ubiquitous]

If Houston win all three games and STL wins its 3 games, they will have to play. If Houston wins 3 and STL wins 2 they will have to play. If HOuston wins 2 and STL wins 2 or 1 they have to play. If Houston wins 1 and STL wins 1 or 0 they have to play. The most likely scenario is they are going to have to play that final game. All STL has to do to force the one game is win just one game out of three. If they do that only a sweep for the Sros would keep the game from happenng.

[Astro]

So how pumped do you think the Giants are going to be for that makeup game? I guess we will see how professional they are if they have to play that one.
How bout a 5 homerun game by Bonds if they make it up... that way the Astros make the playoffs AND all the Bonds haters cry

[Ubiquitous]

Oh man I was so busy looking at who the Brewers would start that I forgot to look and see who the Cards would start. Tomorrow/Tonight the Cards will be starting. . . . . JEFF WEAVER!
He has to go up against Chris Capuano, probably the Brewers best pitcher right now (Sheets gets injured a lot), and he would be a solid #2 pitcher on most teams. So it is Jeff (5.79 ERA with a 6.82 ERA at home) vs Chris (3.87 ERA) Capuano.

It isn't totally gravy for the Astros though. Yes they do have Clemens starting tomorrow but they will be facing a young pitcher who has been on sort of a roll lately. He got roughed up in his last two starts but one of those starts was in Colorado so it can excused somewhat. After that they got a pretty mediocre match up with two young pitchers still trying to get it over the plate. So that will be a toss up. Followed up by the final match up of Pettite vs Smoltz. So Clemens really needs to win tomorrow and the bullpen and hitters need to real well the next game. The final game I think is going to be a coin toss (the second game could be too) so they are really going to need to stack the odds in their favor before that game.

The Cards will have after the game I just mentioned Sheets vs Suppan then Villanueva vs Carpenter. Unfortunately that looks like 1 win and 2 losses. So the Cards are going to have to definitely win the Carpenter game and then steal another game somewhere else. Unfortunately for them it should have been todays game but they blew it.

[hubkittel]

yeah, the entire season for the cardinals rest in the hands of jeff weaver. i don't even know what to say to that. other than that i hate jason marquis with a passion that will never die. gutless, no heart, quit on his team, selfish, ignorant, freakin 6.02 era. he doesn't deserve a job in the major leagues. they should ship his a** to some podunk independent bush league Right Now before he becomes a free agent. they should make a statement and give him his release Right Now. what does it say to your team when you run this jacka** out in the most important game of the season. you could pick a pitcher at random from aaa and get a better performance. do the cardinals not understand the concept of replacement level? oh wait-molina, miles, duncan, pwilson, the entire bullpen, weaver, reyes. yeah, they understand replacement level pretty well. and what's really amazing is that if a miracle happens and the cards get to a playoff game with houston, guess who pitches? he of the 6.02 era. if i hadn't already accepted the cards fate, i'd be verging on despondency. but whatever, jason marquis doesn't care so why should i.

[DTF955]

Okay, they're assured of a spot int he postseason, but if it comes down to home field and the Tigers lose a pivotal game, jim Leyland might have some struggles, as he doesn't have a World Series and several pennants to his name like LaRussa.

how far back were the Twins? Were they further back then the Braves' 15 in 1914?

Of course, as mentioned, they are still assured of a spot in the playoffs, so it can't be remembered as nearly as much a choke as the oldtime teams. I mean, even the '95 Angels fell out of the playoffs after their 1-game playoff with Seattle, and they aren't usually mentioned in the same breath, though a 4-28 record at one point after Gary DiSarcina went down shows they should be.

[PeteF3]

Okay, they're assured of a spot int he postseason, but if it comes down to home field and the Tigers lose a pivotal game, jim Leyland might have some struggles, as he doesn't have a World Series and several pennants to his name like LaRussa.

He has as many Series rings as LaRussa does (one).

[DTF955]

He has as many Series rings as LaRussa does (one).

Rats, you're right, i forgot about that stint in Florida - team sold off so fast it just never had tie to sink in. Thanks.

(Yes, the fact it was the Indians they beat may mean i wanted to forget it :-) But, the mass selloff was the main reason.)

[hubkittel]

[QUOTE=DTF955]Okay, they're assured of a spot int he postseason, but if it comes down to home field and the Tigers lose a pivotal game, jim Leyland might have some struggles, as he doesn't have a World Series and several pennants to his name like LaRussa.

how far back were the Twins? Were they further back then the Braves' 15 in 1914?[QUOTE]

but there were no expectations for the tigers this year. nobody picked them to win their division, the pennant, or the series-unlike the cards. the cards have to win the division and make the playoffs just to meet the minimum of expectations. for the tigers, if they had missed the playoffs or just win the wild card, it's a pat on the butt and "good season". the cards have 81 wins and people around here are growing ever more suicidal by the day. if the tigers had finished with a win total in the low 80's it would be seen as a positive, as a move in the right direction and towards a brighter future.

[DTF955]

[QUOTE=DTF955]Okay, they're assured of a spot int he postseason, but if it comes down to home field and the Tigers lose a pivotal game, jim Leyland might have some struggles, as he doesn't have a World Series and several pennants to his name like LaRussa.

how far back were the Twins? Were they further back then the Braves' 15 in 1914?[QUOTE]

but there were no expectations for the tigers this year. nobody picked them to win their division, the pennant, or the series-unlike the cards. the cards have to win the division and make the playoffs just to meet the minimum of expectations. for the tigers, if they had missed the playoffs or just win the wild card, it's a pat on the butt and "good season". the cards have 81 wins and people around here are growing ever more suicidal by the day. if the tigers had finished with a win total in the low 80's it would be seen as a positive, as a move in the right direction and towards a brighter future.

Doesn't the same hold true for the '64 Phillies, though? True, some of the collapses ('51 Dodgers, though they played above .500 I think, '78 Red Sox, etc.) were by clubs most thought had a fair shot at winning after what they had done the previous year. But, the '63 Phillies weren't a house on fire.

Then again, you could be right in that at least the Phillies were above .500, and had some rising young stars/ Plus, as you say, the Tigers are the wild card, which goes back to what was said earlier, in this scenario, it's really not memorable at all. They could still regroup and make the World Series.

Which makes for an interest poll that probably belongs on a separate thread - do collapsing teams that still have a fair shot at making the playoffs feel less pressure? Can they regroup and do it more easily, or do they say, "Oh well, we can be the wild card." What about the charging team? As I say this will be a separate thread, as I think it is itneresting.

[cardsfanatic]

A Cardinal win, Houston loss, San Diego and Los Angeles (N) win tonight and I'll be happy. Those last two teams I didn't really care about until I skimmed this thread and saw all of the Philly fans pulling against the Cardinals for no apparent reason. Guess I'll throw my own brand of voodoo back at them. ;)

[hubkittel]

the cards win today 3-2 on a bases loaded triple by scott spiezio in the bottom of the eight-clinching at least a tie for the division and eliminating the reds. chris sampson goes tonight for houston against atlanta.

also the dodgers and phillies both won and san diego is up 3-1 in the top of the ninth. a padre win eliminates the phils from the playoffs.

[cardsfanatic]

I would be exstatic if the Cardnials and the God of baseball Albert Pujols (rolls eyes) miss the playoffs.

What happened to the Phillies and the God of baseball Ryan Howard (rolls eyes)? Maybe if you spent more time rooting and less time hating... :)

[cardsfanatic]

A Cardinal win, Houston loss, San Diego and Los Angeles (N) win tonight and I'll be happy. Those last two teams I didn't really care about until I skimmed this thread and saw all of the Philly fans pulling against the Cardinals for no apparent reason. Guess I'll throw my own brand of voodoo back at them. ;)

I've gotten everything I wanted so far... outside of the Houston loss. Let's hope my luck continues. :)

[STLCards2]

What happened to the Phillies and the God of baseball Ryan Howard (rolls eyes)? Maybe if you spent more time rooting and less time hating... :)


Well, after a very strange year, the natural order of baseball has been restored:

The Yankees are WS favorites, the Cardinals are in the playoffs (almost), the Phillies are out of the playoffs, the Cubs are in last place, and Maddux and Glavine are both pitching in the postseason (they might face each other)

[geezer]

And Spiezio today saved the day in St. Louis, now they must win it tomorrow to clinch it, and avoid further embarrassment.

[Ubiquitous]

Well it comes down to Sunday.

It is up to rookie Chris Sampson with all of 2 starts this year to get a win for the Astros against John Smoltz. Doesn't look good. While the Cards send out Carpenter against youngster Villanueva. Doesn't look good for Houston. They really needed their offense to come alive during Clemens game, but as usual it failed them. The Smoltz-Villanueva game was the one game I gave to the Cards. They did what I said they needed to do which was steal a game from either Sheets or Capuano to get it done in the Central. They did that and more getting wins in both games.

I would say right now that the Cards are going to win the division. Oh well it was a great last two weeks. Houston looks to end up going 11-1 or 10-2 which as it turns out many almost weres did. If they had gone 12-0 they probably would have forced a playoff game, and they would have been the first team in history to go 12-0 and get to the title.

[geezer]

I only have to say, that I want to see televised that Cardinals game.

[Ubiquitous]

Well the Cardinals get to backdoor it. Houston Astros come up short. Going 10-2 at then to miss it by that much. Funny thing baseball if you asked anybody which 2 of the 4 games the Cards would win. The 2 against Sheets and Capuano or the 2 games against Davis and Villanueva, I think most would have picked Davis and Villanueva. Which games do the cards end up winning?

The Cardinals should send a nice fruit basket to Roger Clemens who helped make it possible for their close victory.

Wouldn't it be something if they went on to win the Series much like the Sox did last year after their close shave with collapsing.

[cardsfanatic]

Well the Cardinals get to backdoor it.


That's a ridiculous statement. The Cards played better than the Houston Astros for 9/10ths of the season. They built their lead and yes, they faltered at the end and let the Stros comeback and almost win the division. But the fact is they didn't "backdoor" anything. They built that lead and in the end it was enough.


The Cardinals should send a nice fruit basket to Roger Clemens who helped make it possible for their close victory.


As soon as the Astros send the Cardinals offense (outside of Pujols and Spezio) and bullpen (the whole lot of 'em) and every starting pitcher other than Suppan & Weaver (who'd have believed they'd be our best pitchers in this miserable run?) a fruitbasket for letting them ressurect their miserable season and almost make the playoffs? Sure. There was more to the MLB season than the last 12 games, you know?

[hubkittel]

That's a ridiculous statement. The Cards played better than the Houston Astros for 9/10ths of the season.

the cardinals played exactly 1.5 games better than houston over the course of 162 games. the cardinals were the better team in april/may. the rest of the way they were 10 games under .500. houston was the better team over the course of the second half of the season. the cards won the thing with their hot start.

and finishing the season 3-7, losing the last game of the season, and needing a loss by houston to get into the playoffs is the textbook definition of backdooring it.

[cardsfanatic]

the cardinals played exactly 1.5 games better than houston over the course of 162 games. the cardinals were the better team in april/may. the rest of the way they were 10 games under .500. houston was the better team over the course of the second half of the season. the cards won the thing with their hot start.

and finishing the season 3-7, losing the last game of the season, and needing a loss by houston to get into the playoffs is the textbook definition of backdooring it.

You're never going to sell me on the fact that a team like Houston which was under .500 the entire season let the Cardinals "backdoor" it into the playoffs. The Cards led the Central for 90% of the season. How long did the Astros lead?

Yeah, the Cards really sucked that lead they _built_ up for all it was worth. Yeah, they needed every single bit of it. But the fact is that for practically the _entire_ season the Cardinals were the better team. Over the last 12, they weren't. Good thing they play 162 games that count the same, I suppose.

[EvanAparra]

Yup, cards were the better team, they almost let it slip away, but in the end, the best team prevailed.

[geezer]

Now the real thing starts for the Cardinals, how much they can handle the Padres, this wasnt last year, this Padres team is better than 2005, more experienced and a little more competent.

[STLCards2]

Now the real thing starts for the Cardinals, how much they can handle the Padres, this wasnt last year, this Padres team is better than 2005, more experienced and a little more competent.

Yes, and the Cardinals were better last year too. I don't think the Cardinals will win this series, but I hope I am wrong.

[geezer]

Yes, and the Cardinals were better last year too. I don't think the Cardinals will win this series, but I hope I am wrong.

Well, actually im rooting for the Cards to win this series.

[Ubiquitous]

By backdoor I mean the Cards lost today and still got in because the Astros lost.

As for Clemens if he hadn't of stayed away until months into the season it would probably be the Astros going and not the Cards. Clemens pitched 2 games through June. The Cardinals won by 1.5 games. I think 13 to 14 extra starts for Clemens would have more then made up that gap.

The Cards through May were 34-19. The rest of the way they were 49-59. The A