Helping a 9 Y.O. Pitcher

[B.B. Baseball]

Hi guys. I finally registered after viewing the web site for some time.

I am the uncle of a soon-to-be 9 year old with lots of natural ability but who has had no instruction (camps, private instructors, a dad who is a coach). What should be emphasized at this point to help him max out on his ability (grip, motion, etc.)?

A typical inning in his rec league is 3 K's and 1 BB when he pitches. I think I caught him at 47 on an amateur radar gun but it usually reads 40-42.

Is private instruction worthwhile? If so, how do you find someone? We live in Westchester county, NY.

Thanks.

[Chris O'Leary]

I am the uncle of a soon-to-be 9 year old with lots of natural ability but who has had no instruction (camps, private instructors, a dad who is a coach). What should be emphasized at this point to help him max out on his ability (grip, motion, etc.)?

I would first focus on making sure that he knows how to throw well. It's easy to move from throwing to pitching out of the Set position.

Here's how I teach my guys how to throw...

- Sideways, Swing, Step, and Throw (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/RethinkingPitching/Essays/SidewaysSwingStepAndThrow.html)

Once he can throw well, have him learn a good 4-seam fastball, 2-seam fastball, and change-up.

[B.B. Baseball]

Thanks Chris.
He is playing in a Fall rec league.
I will see if we can put your method into practice.

[Jake Patterson]

A typical inning in his rec league is 3 K's and 1 BB when he pitches. I think I caught him at 47 on an amateur radar gun but it usually reads 40-42.
Is private instruction worthwhile? If so, how do you find someone? We live in Westchester county, NY.
Thanks.

BB,
O'Leary would be a great place to start - See his blog. The other thing I would Stronglyrecommend is to put the gun in the closet and not take it out until he is in high school. The following is an article I wrote about guns (Sorry for its length):

PITCHING SAFETY

Radar Guns Have No Place In Youth Baseball

By: Jake Patterson
June 2006

The proliferated use of radar guns, radar buckets, glove speed devises, and other speed detection devises in youth baseball has medical and baseball youth pitching experts extremely concerned, and for good reason. More and more children are ending their baseball careers prematurely because of preventable arm injuries due to poor skill development and the rising emphasis on speed. Many coaching and physical therapist professionals even go as far as calling parents who buy them irresponsible. In a rush to buy the latest technology, parents are endangering their children.

Not long ago the use of guns was restricted to the college and pro ranks. As the prices of radar guns came down they quickly made there way into the high school and American Legion level and then to premier youth travel teams. New inexpensive guns have allowed more and more parents and youth coaches to purchase the guns and they are now being unwisely used on children as young as eight years old, typically by over zealous parents who think Little Johnny is the next Curt Schilling. .

The problem, say experts is that when guns are used speed becomes the emphasis and not technique. Coaches educated in proper techniques and arm safety are concerned seeing radar guns at a Little League, middle school or other youth league practices and games. Many feel they have no place there and are typically used by unqualified parents and untrained coaches. They can only result in damaged arms.

Dick Mills, former pitcher for the Boston Red Sox and long time pitching coach states, “The point is - when working with pitchers who are growing and developing the main focus must be on skill development, not velocity since velocity will be determined by the stages of growth and development. It really doesn't matter how fast a youth pitcher pitches since that is no indication of how he will pitch in the future. Hard throwers at the Little League level will not necessarily throw hard when they get to high school. Late developers with better skills will normally bypass the early developers.”

The Scripps Howard News Service says the gun is in their top five risk factors that cause damage to young arms that can lead to Tommy John (surgery). Their articles, Facts on Tommy John Surgery published May 25, 2006 states, “Pitchers need to focus on learning how to pitch rather than throwing as hard as possible.”

And if that wasn’t enough warning, in an interview conducted by Medscape Orthopaedics and Sports Medicine, Dr. James Andrews chairman and medical director of the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) was asked “What are the key risk factors for (youth baseball) injuries?” Part of his answer included, “The third risk factor -- believe it or not -- is the radar gun. There's so much emphasis now on velocity and throwing hard that these kids are hurting their elbows and their shoulders because they're trying to throw a 90-mile-per-hour fastball. There's too much emphasis on the radar gun and not nearly enough emphasis (as my good friend Hank Aaron with the Atlanta Braves has preached for years) on learning how to pitch safely. The safest throws for young kids to learn is strikes, as well as how to pitch around a batter. You need to decrease the importance of radar guns, or outlaw their use in high school and younger baseball events.” And Dr. Andrews should know. He is known throughout the baseball world as the leading surgeon for Tommy John Surgery.

If a child throws 55 MPH versus 50 MPH, who cares? Speed is no indication of how good a young pitcher is or will become nor will it help his skill development. Being able to throw properly and hitting spots in the strike zone is what makes a good young pitchers become viable potentials as the age. The game has too many unnecessary arm injuries. Children don’t biologically mature until they are in their late teens and too often trained coaches see parent after parent treating their twelve-year-old sons like they are seasoned twenty year olds. This past season, one dad in Northeast Connecticut brought a radar gun to a Little League practice. All he accomplished in doing was creating a, “Who can out throw who,” free-for-all. It didn’t stop until a local high school coach stepped in and stopped the lunacy.

What is a radar gun?
A radar gun is a measurement devise that tracks the speed of the ball in miles per hour (MPH). Sources disagree on when they were first used in the pros, but most agree it was sometime during the 1970’s. RADAR stands for Radio Detection and Ranging. The devise operates by transmitting radio waves that reflect off objects. A measurable frequency change occurs which when measured can be converted into miles per hour.

Who should use a radar gun?
College and pro scouts, when scouting potential players use radar guns. They allow the scouts to track pitchers and compare them against a large pool of other potential players across the country and world. The guns however, are just a piece of the scouting process. They are used in conjunction with other scouting tools such as pitch variety and accuracy analysis and are typically used to scout high school seniors and college players in their late teens or early twenties.

Others who have a legitimate reason to use radar guns are college and pro pitching coaches to track relative improvement and benchmark pitchers and their individual pitches. In this particular capacity they can be used as a training aid.

Few experienced high school coaches use a gun. They can recognize pitching problems and determine corrective action without the use of a gun. Knowing how fast a pitcher is pitching poorly brings no value to the training process.

The last category is competition analysis. College coaches and professional coaches use guns to track their competitors. In a “winning is the priority” environment they seek every advantage they can to win a game, but this particular use should be restricted to the college, championship ball and the professional ranks.

Recommendations
First and foremost, parents have to accept the fact that they have the primary responsibility for their child’s safety. They must not assume their son’s coach knows what he is doing. Many Little League and youth coaches are untrained volunteers who simply do the best they can. Many know little about teaching proper throwing mechanics or skill development. Learn what you can about basic baseball techniques. A motivated parent and their child learning together is truly the best learning combination. If you see an untrained coach using a gun on your child, or using improper throwing techniques, stop it immediately. Don’t sit back worrying about whether or not you are going to hurt the coach’s feelings. When your child’s safety is at risk – take charge.

The question of how much training a volunteer coach should have is asked a thousand times worldwide during every Little League season. The answer is simple - just because you are a volunteer coach, it does not relinquish your responsibility to the players you coach to do the job properly. Go and educate yourself. How to throw properly is not an easy skill to teach. There are many great programs out there available in book, video and DVD form that teach proper fundamentals. Other resources can include your local middle school and high school coaches, local clinics, baseball websites, or local baseball companies. The Internet has plethora of material available.
Finally, to all the parents who thought buying a radar gun was a good idea the advice is simple. Throw it away - Buy a book not a gun.

If you need additional information contact me at pattersonsports@yahoo.com


References

ASMI. (March 16, 2006). “I’m Going to Alabama to See Dr. Andrews,” Part 2: An Expert Interview With James Andrews, MD. Retrieved July 9, 2006 from: www.asmi.org

Mills, Dick. (July 23, 2006). Email correspondence: Pitching Speeds in Youth Baseball. www.pitching.com

Scripps Howard News Service. (May 25, 2005). Facts on Tommy John Surgery. Retrieved July 7, 2006 from: http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=TOMMYJOHNBOX-05-25-05&cat=LS)

Copyright © 2006 J. Patterson

[B.B. Baseball]

Thanks Jake.
We do not use the gun much because it is unreliable (it registers a number less than half of the time) and it is a pain to use. He was curious how fast he was pitching so we tried it out a couple of times. Your article is another reason not to use it.
Thanks again.

[Chris O'Leary]

The other thing I would Stronglyrecommend is to put the gun in the closet and not take it out until he is in high school. The following is an article I wrote about guns...

I agree.

Also, Jake's article is a GREAT article.

I am not a big fan of radar guns, because I think it gets guys focused on velocity rather than pitching (and velocity isn't enough).

I judge my guys based on whether they get guys out or not.

[GFK]

I am going to be the contrary opinion here.

The following is my opinion based on my study and experiences.

Learn to throw hard. Then learn to control it. Throw hard with control. You will need to limit his pitch count per outing to prevent damage and the balance point is an individual thing.

Without feedback, progress is going to be much slower and more wild ass luck than anything else. Feedback comes in the form of RADAR and review of slow motion video taped during pitch counts.

Show him as much slow motion / regular speed video of MLB pitchers as you can get your hands on. While he is watching the stuff, you need to watch it and see what you can see.

If someone is trying to sell you a DVD, book, silver bullet, … about pitching, put what they say to the test by seeing if the MLB pitchers do it the same way. (This is known as the Mark H test.)

Do not purposely set the standard at “Mediocrity” by creating a LL strike machine that can’t break glass with a fastball. In most rec leagues, a kid that can just get it in the K-Zone will be a stud. Then they rely on the ability to throw strikes and never focus on developing the ability to throw hard. Sooner or later, just throwing strikes will not be enough. Then they need to be able to throw hard strikes. By then, it is too late.

Yes there are risks involved. Guess what, every time you take him to the corner store you are taking his life in your hands by driving him there. Better give that up too.

I need to get off my soapbox for awhile. Still respect you Jake, just disagree with you!

[Chris O'Leary]

Learn to throw hard. Then learn to control it. Throw hard with control.

There are a whole host of logical problems with this post...

1. Lots of guys have made it to the big leagues based on their ability to throw hard and have then washed out due to their inability to throw with control.

2. Sandy Koufax had to take a few MPH off of his FB to be successful.

3. Greg Maddux does just fine not throwing all that hard (and never threw as hard as he could).


Without feedback, progress is going to be much slower and more wild ass luck than anything else.

Feedback is easy.

Are you hitting your spots (e.g. down and away), striking guys out, and inducing them to hit into ground outs?


Do not purposely set the standard at “Mediocrity” by creating a LL strike machine that can’t break glass with a fastball.

Why not?

It works and it reduces the risk of injury.


Then they rely on the ability to throw strikes and never focus on developing the ability to throw hard. Sooner or later, just throwing strikes will not be enough. Then they need to be able to throw hard strikes. By then, it is too late.

Why?

I have helped multiple older guys pick up 5 to 10 MPH just by getting their mechanics right. I have also helped guys convert over from OF to P.


Yes there are risks involved. Guess what, every time you take him to the corner store you are taking his life in your hands by driving him there. Better give that up too.

But why take an unnecessary risk?

[Jake Patterson]

I need to get off my soapbox for awhile. Still respect you Jake, just disagree with you!

Not just me - Dr. James Andrews, Dick Mills, Dr. Glenn Fleisig (Director of Research ASMI) and every (professional)youth pitching instructor and physical therapist and trainer I have ever spoken with on this topic. I have yet to meet anyone (with credentials) who has proven to me or properly argued why a gun at the youth level is good. As a HS coach I strongly discourage them at the youth level as they only promote speed and not form. Establishing speed metrics at the youth level bring no value to the table of an experienced coach for the average youth pitcher. My experience has been that they are typically used by inexperienced dads and coaches who do not know how to properly teach pitching.

HS and college is a different story.

[Jake Patterson]

Here something Dick Mills said on the topic of speed.

The point is when working with pitchers who are growing and developing the main focus must be on skill development...not on velocity since velocity will be determined by the stages of growth and development.

It really doesn't matter how fast a youth pitcher pitches since that is no indication of how he will pitch in the future. Hard throwers at the Little League level will not necessarily throw hard when they get to high school. Late developers with better skills will normally bypass the early developers.

[Encinitas]

I too have a lot of respect for Jake's efforts, but I don't agree on Radar. I will say I don't bring the gun out to either of my son's LL teams, but for there personal development we use it once every 2-3 weeks. Lately I haven't used it at all, because it's just fall ball and we are working more on strength, coordination and band work, ala Wolforth's The Athletic Pitcher.

I have decided to leave the gun put away until we get the proper elbow/arm action. So I am not against radar, but both of my kids need to learn to not push the ball. Once the elbow is worked out and muscle memory fixed, I'll start using the Radar for throwing.

I do use it for hitting.

[GFK]

Not just me - Dr. James Andrews, Dick Mills, Dr. Glenn Fleisig (Director of Research ASMI) and every (professional)youth pitching instructor and physical therapist and trainer I have ever spoken with on this topic. I have yet to meet anyone (with credentials) who has proven to me or properly argued why a gun at the youth level is good. As a HS coach I strongly discourage them at the youth level as they only promote speed and not form. Establishing speed metrics at the youth level bring no value to the table of an experienced coach for the average youth pitcher. My experience has been that they are typically used by inexperienced dads and coaches who do not know how to properly teach pitching.

HS and college is a different story.

Jake, I really do listen to what you have to say and your word holds weight with me. With respect to Dick Mills, ASMI, Mike Marshall, ... their words do not hold weight with me. I know lots of "professionals" who are less than proficient in their profession. My point being, credentials and results are two different creatures.

[jojab]

1. Lots of guys have made it to the big leagues based on their ability to throw hard and have then washed out due to their inability to throw with control.

Yes, and lots more have not made it to the big leagues because they couldn't throw hard enough.

The radar gun is a tool used for feedback in training. You are not going to learn to throw hard starting two weeks before the scout shows up.

[Chris O'Leary]

You are not going to learn to throw hard starting two weeks before the scout shows up.

You are likely going to be older than 16 or 17 by the time the scouts start nosing around, which gives you plenty of time to hop up your velocity.

My concern is with an emphasis on velocity at too early of an age (e.g. under 16 or 17) when it is...

1. Dangerous.
2. Unnecessary (assuming you know how to really pitch).
3. Counterproductive (to learning how to really pitch).

I also don't like that some people are focused on maximizing the velocity of mature pitchers via tricks that work in the short-term but cause long-term physical problems. Yes throwing 100 MPH is cool, but it isn't always necessary (or effective).

[jojab]

You are likely going to be older than 16 or 17 by the time the scouts start nosing around, which gives you plenty of time to hop up your velocity.

My concern is with an emphasis on velocity at too early of an age (e.g. under 16 or 17) when it is...

1. Dangerous.


How old was Robert Stock when the scouts started nosing around?

Velocity is dangerous? To whom, the hitters?

Okay, Chris, you just keep teaching young pitchers to take their time getting the ball up to the high-cock position and lob it up there for strikes. Then when the kid is 17 you can call him back in, change his mechanics and really teach him how to throw.

[GFK]

...Okay, Chris, you just keep teaching young pitchers to take their time getting the ball up to the high-cock position and lob it up there for strikes. Then when the kid is 17 you can call him back in, change his mechanics and really teach him how to throw.

Your missing the up-side jojab. Some of these velocity chalanged strike machines make great batting practice pitchers.:D

[GFK]

Yes, and lots more have not made it to the big leagues because they couldn't throw hard enough.

The radar gun is a tool used for feedback in training. You are not going to learn to throw hard starting two weeks before the scout shows up.

If you can throw with velocity, don't have pinpoint location, can hit, they revert you to a position player. I know of very few select teams or HS teams were the pitcher is not able to play a position other than P.

[GFK]

B.B. Baseball,

If I may, I suggest you make contact with Stever, DamageG, or FlippJ and ask them to point you in the right direction with respect to getting off to a good start for this 9 y.o. Ask them what they suggest you stay away from in the way of pitching instruction.

[Chris O'Leary]

Okay, Chris, you just keep teaching young pitchers to take their time getting the ball up to the high-cock position and lob it up there for strikes. Then when the kid is 17 you can call him back in, change his mechanics and really teach him how to throw.

My guys certainly don't lob the ball up there. They just don't throw the ball any harder than they need to.

Some of them do throw hard. One broke a kid's nose when he turned into a pitch.

This approach also works at the 11U level. My select team went 7-4-1 and my rec league team went 8-4.

Nobody had any arm problems and we've got a lot of parents asking if their kids can join our team. In fact, I just picked up a LHP.

[Chris O'Leary]

The radar gun is a tool used for feedback in training.

The best feedback is your performance in games.

If you're getting guys out, then your velocity is good.

If you're not getting guys out, then check your location. If you're location's good, then you need to throw harder.

[Chris O'Leary]

Velocity is dangerous? To whom, the hitters?

No, to young pitchers.

The harder you throw, the more strain you put on the body and the more you increase your risk of injuring yourself.

[duckydps]

How about kids that go out there and just naturally throw harder? I think those kids are ok to continue, but ones that are not capable (yet) of throwing hard should not even try to.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, I really do listen to what you have to say and your word holds weight with me. With respect to Dick Mills, ASMI, Mike Marshall, ... their words do not hold weight with me. I know lots of "professionals" who are less than proficient in their profession. My point being, credentials and results are two different creatures.

I don't think anyone listed above is "less than proficient" in their fields and I didn't mention MM. Give the name of a credible professional pitching instructor who teaches youngsters under 12 who advocates the use of a gun for the average player and lets get him here to discuss his views. I haven't met one yet.

[Jake Patterson]

Yes, and lots more have not made it to the big leagues because they couldn't throw hard enough.

The radar gun is a tool used for feedback in training. You are not going to learn to throw hard starting two weeks before the scout shows up.

Jo, I believe we are talking about young kids- at least I am. Not high school or college studs with a chance at a pro career. Believe me - HS studs who can throw know how fast they are pitching. The gun is a very useful tool for them around their junior year. I never had a prospect trying to play catch up because I didn't use a gun. They typically try to play catch up because of their abilities.

[Encinitas]

I think a kid needs to throw a lot, every day if they can. Do it like the Dominicans. If you are following a program where velocity is what is taught, such as Setpro or The Athletic Pitcher, there are times when just bringing the gun out gets the kid to work a little harder.

Some people are born with the dynamic flexibility to throw hard, others say so what if you aren't throwing hard is a skill you can obtain, through throwing, strength training and improving range of motion through joint mobility.

As I mentioned in my case I am putting it away until we can learn to break with the elbows and not long arm the ball. However it was nice for one to see that he improved 6 MPH just straightening out some issues.

[Chris O'Leary]

As I mentioned in my case I am putting it away until we can learn to break with the elbows and not long arm the ball.

What exactly does this mean?

[Sparksdale]

One thing I have learned from my thread (on this site) is the discussion about the Radar Gun might be the most controversial topic in baseball. There seems to be no middle ground and people disagree vehemently.

Personally, I think the gun should be used as a tool but it should also be respected. I can tell you this, the radar gun has inspired my boy and I firmly believe it is a major factor and making him work hard to get better. We learned early that he could throw harder with better mechanics. I actually proved this to him in the backyard. I would either have him throw a ball or I would throw a ball using "bad" mechanics. He quickly saw that when he used better mechanics he threw the ball harder (and more strikes!). He is 10 years old and of course he wants to throw hard ( I dare you to find a kid that doesn't).

So my boy and I made a deal. I would use the gun from time to time if he would work hard on his mechanics. He had no problem with that because he understood that using better mechanics would help him throw faster.

I can understand people's thinking and I can see how a radar gun can be abused. I can also see how it can be effective.

In the end I made the decision based on what I "think" is best for "my" child. I know that using the radar gun has kept him inspired. He has worked his tail off trying to hit a personal goal and for him it has worked. His goal was to throw 55 mph before his 11'th birthday. He hasn't turned 11 yet and he has hit 57 mph. He now throws 55 consistently and most of all he throws it with good mechanics and throws strikes.

I will never change Jakes mind or anyone else's. Jake has forgotten more about teaching baseball than I will ever learn. All I know is what I "think" is best for my child. I can tell you without a doubt that using the radar gun has kept my boy off of the video games and in the backyard working on his game. I do not abuse the gun and I never (repeat EVER) let him throw without stretching and warming up. He and I have rules when it comes to his game and he not only follows the rules but he never deviates from them because he knows it makes him better.

Anyway, I respect Jake a lot. I don't really disagree with him on this issue as much as I think my boy might be different. I'm not saying my boy is special in baseball I"m saying because of certain family problems I'm doing everything I can to keep him inspired to work hard at something. If getting the radar gun makes my boy work at baseball then I'll use it.....bottom line.

[GFK]

... Give the name of a credible professional pitching instructor who teaches youngsters under 12 who advocates the use of a gun for the average player and lets get him here to discuss his views. I haven't met one yet.

... If you are following a program where velocity is what is taught, such as Setpro or The Athletic Pitcher, there are times when just bringing the gun out gets the kid to work a little harder. ...

The two mentioned entities are professional pitching instructors who I consider credible. Jake, I don't know your opinion regarding their credibility. You have more pull than I. I will let it up to you to get them to show up on BBFever. I suspect it will not happen.

Not just me - Dr. James Andrews, Dick Mills, Dr. Glenn Fleisig (Director of Research ASMI) and every (professional)youth pitching instructor and physical therapist and trainer I have ever spoken with on this topic. I have yet to meet anyone (with credentials) who has proven to me or properly argued why a gun at the youth level is good. ...

Did the ASMI information you referenced account for how much pitching the kids did? Did some coach use them up because he was willing to sacrifice the kid's arm for a win? Was the arm damage due to excessive use of curveballs? What kind of off-season conditioning program was the kid on? What kind of in-season maintenance program was the kid on?

It is not very difficult to find two or more credible professionals in a given field of expertise who disagree. Then the layman is left to use critical thinking to come to a decision regarding the issue at hand.

Jo, I believe we are talking about young kids- at least I am. Not high school or college studs with a chance at a pro career. Believe me - HS studs who can throw know how fast they are pitching. The gun is a very useful tool for them around their junior year. I never had a prospect trying to play catch up because I didn't use a gun. They typically try to play catch up because of their abilities.

Would they still be playing catch-up had they developed / maximized their abilities at an earlier age?

... As I mentioned in my case I am putting it away until we can learn to break with the elbows and not long arm the ball. However it was nice for one to see that he improved 6 MPH just straightening out some issues.

This snippet says volumes. Video and radar are qualitative and quantitative “measurements”, respectively, used for feedback to the pitcher and coach. (Video can be quantitative if one is counting frames.) How do you determine if changes a pitcher has made are a move in the right direction without some form of measurement / feedback. (B.B. Baseball, I suggest you do a search on “KR” or “Knowledge of Results” with respect to training athletes. Also, the reference to “Arm Action” Encinitas made is another place I would suggest your start your journey for pitching knowledge. Find out what “Arm Action” is and develop your 9 yo’s arm action first.)

Jake, so you don’t advocate use of radar for young pitchers. What are your thoughts on Long Toss? How many of the Prospects you have seen that have not used a gun for feedback but have been on Long Toss programs during their development in the younger years? Someone else said it before me (I think Mark H), but Long Toss is a poor mans radar. The greater the velocity, the farther it goes. The kid is no longer trying to rack up some number on the gun but is now trying to throw farther and farther.

B.B. Baseball, I can tell you this first hand. All the “bad” (but usually popular) information you pass on to the 9yo that he picks up and does well will be hell to correct when he is 3 more years down the road.

Sparksdale, I read your post after writing this. You say many wise things in your post. I am impressed that you are man who thinks for himself.

Jake, as always, you have my respect. Please do not read any disrespect at any text I throw your way.

B.B. Baseball, the following two quotes are best advice I ever came across. (Mark H is a regular on many baseball / softball sites. Greg Stock is the father / coach of one of the next rising stars in Professional Baseball. His son is named Robert Stock. He has been using Setpro training methods for many years. Greg Stock is a member of this board.)

... Always compare anything anyone tells you about hitting or pitching to slow motion video of the best in the world.

Success in the short term is highly correlated to how many strikes you throw. Success in the long term is highly correlated to how hard you throw.

Coaches will always be trying to get the pitcher to "get it over". Even more so as you get good enough to overmatch the hitters.

IMO the following will help him more than any mechanical adjustments. (please excuse the baseball speak)

"Son, I don't give a F%^& where the ball goes. I want you to go out there and throw that ball as hard as you F%^&ing can."

[Hawaii]

Dear BB Baseball:

IMHO, among the biggest things you can do to help your 9 YO is work on his core strength conditioning and functional flexibility. Many problems with youth pitchers are a direct result of their being "wobbly." As a result, they lose momentum, they tilt over, they over-use their arm, they strain their elbows, their control suffers, and on and on. If he gets stronger through his core, a lot of "techniques" and pitching-specific suggestions get much easier to implement.

[jojab]

My guys certainly don't lob the ball up there. They just don't throw the ball any harder than they need to.



Chris, you just say stuff that "sounds like it should be good". So, if your pitcher starts a game and gives up a couple basehits even though he's hitting his spots, you trot out to the mound and tell him to just throw harder?

Do you actually read some of the stuff you write before you post it?

[jojab]

Great post, GFK! :clapping

[Chris O'Leary]

So, if your pitcher starts a game and gives up a couple base hits even though he's hitting his spots, you trot out to the mound and tell him to just throw harder?

No.

I have yet to come across a problem that is due to a lack of velocity.

Instead, when my guys have problems with giving up hits (or walks) it's usually due to their leaving the ball up in the zone. By and large, that happens when they try to throw too hard and end up rushing their deliveries (which screws up their timing).

As a result, my general advice to them is to NOT throw as hard; to throw smoother and easier.

If one of my pitchers gives up a hit even if he's hitting his spots, it's usually either a fluke (e.g. the ball goes through a gap in the IF) or due to an error by the IF. This happened to my son in the last game of the season. He pitched one inning that went K, K, E6, E6, K. Both of the E6's went right through him on the ground. Fortunately, my son didn't let it bother him.

[Chris O'Leary]

How do you determine if changes a pitcher has made are a move in the right direction without some form of measurement / feedback.

It's easy. You...

1. See if he's striking guys out.
2. See if guys are hitting the ball well.

It ain't that complicated, folks.

[Jake Patterson]

The two mentioned entities are professional pitching instructors who I consider credible. Jake, I don't know your opinion regarding their credibility. You have more pull than I. I will let it up to you to get them to show up on BBFever. I suspect it will not happen.
Will try... Have seen info from both- although do not profess to have an in depth knowledege of either - have not seen either advocate the gun at -12. I have yet to see conclusive evidence or studies from them or any other professional that states the gun helps development before maturation. If there is simply post it. (PS: I do not consider the salesmen for guns- especially the new low cost guns - experts).

Did the ASMI information you referenced account for how much pitching the kids did? Did some coach use them up because he was willing to sacrifice the kid's arm for a win? Was the arm damage due to excessive use of curveballs? What kind of off-season conditioning program was the kid on? What kind of in-season maintenance program was the kid on?
Most of the time spent at my clinics is spent on abuse. Good training and moderation are key factors whether the gun is used or not. Most of the youth pitching injuries are caused by overuse and abuse. Do not agree with either.
It is not very difficult to find two or more credible professionals in a given field of expertise who disagree. Then the layman is left to use critical thinking to come to a decision regarding the issue at hand. I agree... What I am saying is in 20 years of coaching 10 years of clinics and countless discussions with professional, college and HS coaches and trainers - I have yet to find anyone who advocates the gun at the youth level. This discussion item was brought up last year at the World Baseball Convention with a sit down with Frank Wallace and of the 20 or so coaches in the room no one thought guns at the youth level brings any substantive value to the process. Like I said at the HS(Jr. Year) + level it's a different ball game.
Would they still be playing catch-up had they developed / maximized their abilities at an earlier age? You can't even safely develop their maximum abilities until they are biologically matured. That does not happen for most children until they are 14-18 years old. And as Chris said this is difficult to determine unless you take xrays of their growth plates.

How do you determine if changes a pitcher has made are a move in the right direction without some form of measurement / feedback.
You absolutely need metrics but the form fit and function of the training and its subsequent evaluations have to be appropriate for the age you train. I evaluate young pitchers based on the number of effective pitches they have and their ability to hit spots. We start with a 4-zone evaluation, move to a six and then at HS a nine. Once again, I have no problem gunning a stud looking for a shot at college ball during their HS Junior year - if they are biologically mature.
Jake, so you don’t advocate use of radar for young pitchers. What are your thoughts on Long Toss?
Liike any form of throwing we mange it carefully. We throw to the max comfortable level each player can reach with a skip hop and stop. We do not go beyond that point at the younger levels.

How many of the Prospects you have seen that have not used a gun for feedback but have been on Long Toss programs during their development in the younger years? Someone else said it before me (I think Mark H), but Long Toss is a poor mans radar. The greater the velocity, the farther it goes. The kid is no longer trying to rack up some number on the gun but is now trying to throw farther and farther.

The point is their are NO 12 y/o prospects. Professional and college scouts and coaches won't look at a player this young unless its a personal favor to someone. The reason is - they understand how rapidly their abilities change when measured against contemporaries and cohort groups.

Sparksdale, I read your post after writing this. You say many wise things in your post. I am impressed that you are man who thinks for himself. As am I. And I do believe Sparks does not use with intent to injure.

Jake, as always, you have my respect. Please do not read any disrespect at any text I throw your way. None taken- I believe this is healthy discussion

Greg Stock is the father / coach of one of the next rising stars in Professional Baseball. His son is named Robert Stock. He has been using Setpro training methods for many years. Greg Stock is a member of this board.) Just remember that Robert is 1:100,000 and not the average player and you cannot determine whether or not a youth player is going to be avereage or not until they are at least in HS. How many LL Star Pitchers (Some of the best youth players in the world) never progress beyaond school ball?

Look, (And I hate saying this) While some of you draw upon your experiences as coaches with your son's or son's teams and have may have worked with a bunch of players. I have seen literally hundreds play as children and grow into young men with kids of their own. Some of the kids I coached 20 years ago are now adults helping me with the clinics and as coaches. I have seen the full cycle. I have seen what it takes to become successful in college and the pros. Baseball is agift to be enjoyed as long as the child can last in the game. Very, very few make it. I can't begin to tell you the number of Dad's we have worked with throughout the years who thought Little Johnny was the next Roger Clemens only to find he's an average player. I found this with my own son, someone who did well into his freshman year of college only to find the pond got very big if you want to do it for a living.

Dick Mills still says it best when he says,

"The point is when working with pitchers who are growing and developing the main focus must be on skill development...not on velocity since velocity will be determined by the stages of growth and development.

It really doesn't matter how fast a youth pitcher pitches since that is no indication of how he will pitch in the future. Hard throwers at the Little League level will not necessarily throw hard when they get to high school. Late developers with better skills will normally bypass the early developers."

My experience supports the last sentance....

[XFactor]

Hey all. How's it goin? I come back and I see all this Dick Mills stuff.... it just makes me all warm and tingly inside, that it does.