Missed it by the skin of their teeth

[oscargamblesfro]

I have a question- Have there been any players who nearly made the Hall, (and truly didn't deserve it) but missed it by the skin of their teeth? In other words, did anyone miss induction by very few votes and they would have been a very bad or even disastrous choice- meaning players who aren't in there but came surprisingly very very close?

[RuthMayBond]

I can't think of a single case of this. Generally guys make it by the skin of their teeth, and miss by a fair amount. The closest I can think of is Maris, who people won't say would be disastrous. He also wasn't that close but did get almost 60%

[KCGHOST]

I can't think of a single case of this. Generally guys make it by the skin of their teeth, and miss by a fair amount. The closest I can think of is Maris, who people won't say would be disastrous. He also wasn't that close but did get almost 60%


I think Gil Hodges is probably the closet case with a vote of just over 60%. It used to be that if a guy got to 40% you knew he would eventually get the votes to get in. Now there seems to be several guys stalled at the 50%+ range.

[RuthMayBond]

I think Gil Hodges is probably the closet case with a vote of just over 60%. It used to be that if a guy got to 40% you knew he would eventually get the votes to get in. Now there seems to be several guys stalled at the 50%+ range.And some people think it's disastrous if Hodges does NOT make it :rolleyes:

[dgarza]

I think the player who has gotten the most support given the least career performance would be Hank Gowdy. He got just over 35% once. This for a player who played in 1050 games over a 17 season career.

[RuthMayBond]

I think the player who has gotten the most support given the least career performance would be Hank Gowdy. He got just over 35% once. This for a player who played in 1050 games over a 17 season career.That was supposedly because of war service, but can anyone explain Dickie Kerr?

[soberdennis]

I think Gil Hodges is probably the closet case with a vote of just over 60%. It used to be that if a guy got to 40% you knew he would eventually get the votes to get in. Now there seems to be several guys stalled at the 50%+ range.
I have not heard anyone say that it would be disastrous for Hodges to make it.

[dgarza]

That was supposedly because of war service, but can anyone explain Dickie Kerr?
Re Gowdy:But still undeserving
Re Kerr: Perhaps because of his WS performance in 1919, perhaps because of his play in indie ball (I don't know how well he did), maybe he got more support as Musial advanced in his career (didn't Kerr help develop or find Musial?)

[Dalkowski110]

Kerr moved Musial off the mound. As for one guy REALLY undeserving of the Hall of Fame that there was a huge grassroots movement to get in just as I was getting into baseball was Ken Keltner. I think Paul Schramka (Moonlight Graham times 2, as Bill James calls him...two games in the outfield, no at-bats) started the movement. It's since died down, and was never taken seriously, but it's one of two things that caused me to believe that former players (Schramka was a friend and teammate of Keltner) shouldn't be given as much credence as they are (the other, of course, being Frankie Frisch). Sure, there are individual players who I think would be unbiased, but making a blanket statement and saying players should be given a lot of credence as a whole hasn't ever really resonated with me. But I'm getting sidetracked...

Movements for Gil Hodges, Jack Morris, and Dave Parker are the ones that come to mind. Unfortunately, I can also see a movement for Dave Kingman by a future generation who never saw him play. Mark my words that within our lifetimes, there will be a Dave Kingman-for-the-Hall movement. And in no way is he deserving.

[dgarza]

Ken Kelter actually might have deserved more votes than he ever recieved (total of 2 in 2 years).

Dave Parker the most deserving player mentioned yet on this thread (besides Musial).

[Captain Cold Nose]

Rich Gossage, Jim Rice and Andre Dawson all topped 60% this past year, generally thought of as a point of no return toward election. Anyone else outside of Hodges who has topped that has either been voted in by the writers or were chosen early in their VC run (Fox, Slaughter, Bunning and Cepeda, to name four.) While Gossage and Dawson still have considerable time left on the ballot, Rice is only on for a couple more years. 2008 looks like a good shot.

[EvanAparra]

Where do you go to find info on percentages on this, CCN?

[Dalkowski110]

"Dave Parker the most deserving player mentioned yet on this thread (besides Musial)."

Regardless of weather he is or not, the Cobra decided to alienate the Hall of Fame writers one year (can't remember when exactly...2002 maybe?) by calling them all idiots (and some other choice words) for not putting him in the Hall of Fame. And continuing his stupid tirade the next year, then I stopped following it. At that rate, I doubt he's getting elected. Not even Dick Allen has repeatedly trashed baseball writers for not putting him in.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Where do you go to find info on percentages on this, CCN?
The HOF website.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/default.htm

[EvanAparra]

The HOF website.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/default.htm

Thanks. :)

[KHenry14]

"Dave Parker the most deserving player mentioned yet on this thread (besides Musial)."

Regardless of weather he is or not, the Cobra decided to alienate the Hall of Fame writers one year (can't remember when exactly...2002 maybe?) by calling them all idiots (and some other choice words) for not putting him in the Hall of Fame. And continuing his stupid tirade the next year, then I stopped following it. At that rate, I doubt he's getting elected. Not even Dick Allen has repeatedly trashed baseball writers for not putting him in.

One wonders though...for years Harry Carson said much the same thing about the NFL HOF and he got in this year. After Santo, Parker has to be the next deserving IMO.

[538280]

One wonders though...for years Harry Carson said much the same thing about the NFL HOF and he got in this year. After Santo, Parker has to be the next deserving IMO.

I'm a big fan of Parker, but, sorry, he's no Dick Allen.

I can understand Parker's frustration as well (though of course you can't condone his actions). The anti sentiment must be very strong though, as Parker is the kind of player who generally is overrated by sportswriters and the like (though that doesn't appear the case with him-at least in this day and age).

[Dalkowski110]

I actually think Dick Allen is far more deserving of the HoF than Dave Parker in playing ability, and probably the greatest MLB player not already in the Hall. However, his costing the teams he was with pennants by dividing them into pro- and anti-Dick Allen factions (at least Ty Cobb didn't turn the teams he played with against each other to the point where they couldn't win...) makes him literally more detrimental to baseball than the Black Sox, who "only" helped cost their team 1 World Series.

[RuthMayBond]

However, his costing the teams he was with pennants by dividing them into pro- and anti-Dick Allen factionsHow about the teams that wouldn't have been close to a pennant without him? And how do we know he "cost teams a pennant"?

<(at least Ty Cobb didn't turn the teams he played with against each other to the point where they couldn't win...)>

If you don't think Cobb cost his team, you might want to look at May 18, 1912. And would the quality of teammates have anything to do with winning?

<makes him literally more detrimental to baseball than the Black Sox, who "only" helped cost their team 1 World Series.>

You actually believe the integrity of the game isn't that big a deal?

[RuthMayBond]

Hall of Fame votes are usually a pretty good indication, but there can be some real lulus. Which team would you rather have? (votes thru '04)

Votes
75 P-Dickie Kerr
12 P-Orval Grove
8 P-Al Schact
2 P-Hub Perdue
C-the aforemention Hank Gowdy, or Moe Berg
1 1B-Mike Jorgensen
1 2B-Eddie Miksis
9 3B-Eddie Grant
2 SS-Tommy Thevenow
2 OF-Hank Edwards
1 OF-Jesus Alou
1 OF-Walter Cruise

0 P-Hippo Vaughn
0 P-Larry Jackson
0 P-Jack J. Powell
0 P-Frank Tanana
0 C-Darrell Porter (or Mickey Tettleton)
0 1B-Joe Adcock (or Hal Trsoky)
0 2B-Del Pratt
0 3B-Bobby Bonilla (or Ed Yost)
0 SS-Tony Fernandez (or Vern Stephens)
0 LF-Roy White
0 CF-Jimmy Wynn (or Amos Otis)
0 RF-Harold Baines (or Ken Singleton)

[Captain Cold Nose]

Hall of Fame votes are usually a pretty good indication, but there can be some real lulus. Which team would you rather have? (votes thru '04)

Votes
75 P-Dickie Kerr
12 P-Orval Grove
8 P-Al Schact
2 P-Hub Perdue
C-the aforemention Hank Gowdy, or Moe Berg
1 1B-Mike Jorgensen
1 2B-Eddie Miksis
9 3B-Eddie Grant
2 SS-Tommy Thevenow
2 OF-Hank Edwards
1 OF-Jesus Alou
1 OF-Walter Cruise

0 P-Hippo Vaughn
0 P-Larry Jackson
0 P-Jack J. Powell
0 P-Frank Tanana
0 C-Darrell Porter (or Mickey Tettleton)
0 1B-Joe Adcock (or Hal Trsoky)
0 2B-Del Pratt
0 3B-Bobby Bonilla (or Ed Yost)
0 SS-Tony Fernandez (or Vern Stephens)
0 LF-Roy White
0 CF-Jimmy Wynn (or Amos Otis)
0 RF-Harold Baines (or Ken Singleton)
I thought Baines wasn't eligible until next year.

Any room for longtime ballot holdover Don Larsen?

[RuthMayBond]

I thought Baines wasn't eligible until next year.Oops, you are entirely correct :clapping

<Any room for longtime ballot holdover Don Larsen?>

But we can't diss Larsen, he's a Yankee :laugh

[RuthMayBond]

Any room for longtime ballot holdover Don Larsen?As long as we're on the subject, does anyone know what Mike Gonzalez did? (and one book listed votes for a Fred Williams but the HOF site doesn't, maybe an exec?)

[dgarza]

As long as we're on the subject, does anyone know what Mike Gonzalez did?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gonzalez

[Dalkowski110]

How about the teams that wouldn't have been close to a pennant without him? And how do we know he "cost teams a pennant"?

No WS rings, for one...

If you don't think Cobb cost his team, you might want to look at May 18, 1912. And would the quality of teammates have anything to do with winning?

That was one day when Reverend Al Travers pitched. You may notice that all of Cobb's teammates stuck by him, even if they were equally racist. That's one of the reasons they lost 24-2.

You actually believe the integrity of the game isn't that big a deal?

You actually believe I'm for letting any of those guys into the Hall of Fame? The only reason I even made that comparison is because I think so pitifully little of Dick Allen. Saying I despise the man about sums it up. I believe Dick Allen had no personal integrity, cost his teams pennants, hurt the careers of his teammates by pitting them against each other, and undermined every one of his teams. If Cobb was only a "marginal" Hall of Famer without any hit records or anything to his credit, I wouldn't be in favor of Cobb going in, for another. He only goes in because he's head and shoulders above the competition. Dick Allen is not. And that's my side of the story. I do not want to argue this, as from what I've seen, all the Dick Allen for the Hall threads turn into fight threads if there's an argument.

To get back on topic, weird and unexpected Hall of Fame votes have gone to...

-Jewel Ens
-Marty "Axe and Razor" Bergen (This one had to be a "gag" vote, much like the one Jim Deshaies got)
-Orval Grove
-Lou Criger
-Sibby Sisti
-Hal Lanier (AS A PLAYER!)

[ChrisLDuncan]

I think that Hawk just barely missed the hall, he was a very good player. Also I really really liked Don Larsen I know hiscareer stats aren't worthy of hall but a perfect game in the WS is. Also why isn't Marris in the HoF?

[RuthMayBond]

No WS rings, for one...Cobb doesn't have a WS ring but that doesn't mean he "cost" his team anything

<You may notice that all of Cobb's teammates stuck by him, even if they were equally racist. That's one of the reasons they lost 24-2.>

Or they were coerced

<To get back on topic, weird and unexpected Hall of Fame votes have gone to...

-Jewel Ens
-Marty "Axe and Razor" Bergen (This one had to be a "gag" vote, much like the one Jim Deshaies got)
-Orval Grove
-Lou Criger
-Sibby Sisti
-Hal Lanier (AS A PLAYER!)>

Wow, Lanier is possibly the worst long-term non-catcher or pitcher ever

[Captain Cold Nose]

I think that Hawk just barely missed the hall, he was a very good player. Also I really really liked Don Larsen I know hiscareer stats aren't worthy of hall but a perfect game in the WS is. Also why isn't Marris in the HoF?
The HOF voting rules clearly state single game or single year performance aren't worthy themselves of being elected. The fact Larsen got votes at all means a very slim minority ignored that. Thankfully, that was all.
Maris had a couple MVP-type seasons, and was just a decent player beyond that. Not HOF worthy, but better than given credit for in terms of his career, and fine defensively. Catching lightning in a bottle doesn't make you an all-time great.

[dgarza]

Wow, Lanier is possibly the worst long-term non-catcher or pitcher ever
At least he had more total hits than Mike Jorgensen.

[candy curveball cummings]

At least he had more total hits than Mike Jorgensen.

Barely, and Lanier had more at-bats. Jorgensen's lifetime OPS+ is 100. Lanier's is 50.

[dgarza]

Barely, and Lanier had more at-bats. Jorgensen's lifetime OPS+ is 100. Lanier's is 50.
Lanier was worse, but it took Jorgensen 17 years to reach his hit total, Lanier only 11. Jorgensen also had more plate appearances. Well, at least Jorgensen could walk.

[ChrisLDuncan]

The HOF voting rules clearly state single game or single year performance aren't worthy themselves of being elected. The fact Larsen got votes at all means a very slim minority ignored that. Thankfully, that was all.
Maris had a couple MVP-type seasons, and was just a decent player beyond that. Not HOF worthy, but better than given credit for in terms of his career, and fine defensively. Catching lightning in a bottle doesn't make you an all-time great.

Maris' 61 was the hardest season in the history of sports had to endure. And if it weren't for what many consider steroid usage he still may have the HR record.

[EvanAparra]

And even Yankee fans didnt want Maris to break the record.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Maris' 61 was the hardest season in the history of sports had to endure. And if it weren't for what many consider steroid usage he still may have the HR record.
See the first line of my post.

[Rose4theHall]

Mark my words that within our lifetimes, there will be a Dave Kingman-for-the-Hall movement. And in no way is he deserving.

I dont think 10 seasons of sub .320 OBP is ever going to look good to anyone. All Kingman did was hit home runs, and there were better all round players who did that too who are never going to get in (Andre Dawson, Juan Gonzalez and Jay Buhner come to mind). Dwight Evans shreds Kingman, he goes in before he does, but in reality none of these guys will make it. I cant fathom a world where someone thinks Kingman should be in, unless its "put everyone with 400+ HR in" cause.

[538280]

I disagree with the person who said there will be a big Dave Kingman movement. With every year now, those 400+ HRs are looking less impressive to whatever ignorant fans were going to campaign for him. His OBP was horrible, he didn't last particularly long, he had no defense/baserunning value, if he got in I'd probably stop caring about who did.

[Dalkowski110]

My point was that Cobb played in three WS during his prime (he did have a long career peak) and that Allen played in an LCS after his career was winding down. But that was only to clarify my point. I honestly hate debating the Allen issue, but do agree with you with you about Lanier. Gag vote, maybe? As for Kingman, who'd have ever thought Ken Keltner was going to have so much support? Considering that there's currently a Kingman for the Hall movement, and with the value a sizable amount of fans place on homeruns and nothing but homeruns, well...

[RuthMayBond]

My point was that Cobb played in three WS during his primeAt age 20, 21 and 22 seems an early "prime" :rolleyes:

[hubkittel]

As for Kingman, who'd have ever thought Ken Keltner was going to have so much support? Considering that there's currently a Kingman for the Hall movement, and with the value a sizable amount of fans place on homeruns and nothing but homeruns, well...

they're really going to have to wait for all of us who saw him play to die before the "kong for the hall" movement will get any real traction. since i'm hoping to live for another 40 years or so that pushes the whole thing to 2046. and as far as i'm concerned, once i'm dead you all can put whoever you want in the HoF. just ignore my corpse spinning in its grave. :D

[STLCards2]

My point was that Cobb played in three WS during his prime (he did have a long career peak) and that Allen played in an LCS after his career was winding down. But that was only to clarify my point. I honestly hate debating the Allen issue, but do agree with you with you about Lanier. Gag vote, maybe? As for Kingman, who'd have ever thought Ken Keltner was going to have so much support? Considering that there's currently a Kingman for the Hall movement, and with the value a sizable amount of fans place on homeruns and nothing but homeruns, well...

Where is this "Kingman for the Hall" movement? Except for one or two people around here, I have never heard anybody endorse Kingman. Even the bubble-gum stat media can tell Kingman was no HOFer.

[Dalkowski110]

"Except for one or two people around here,"

There's a world outside of baseball-fever...I can name three or four people I know that want Kong in the Hall. I do agree that it won't get much traction unless somebody who actually played with him decides to influence a bunch of kids the next generation from mine down.

"At age 20, 21 and 22 seems an early 'prime'"

So what? Cobb's career peak, which lasts from about 1907-1924 or 1925 begins when he's 20. Technically, he was in his prime.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This website (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/year/1983.htm) contains the BBWAA balloting records.

I've perused them. No player, as far as I can see, ever cracked 70 percent and didn't make it.

Gil Hodges appears to be, far and away, the player who got the most votes, but never got in.