Nuckle Curve

[drtybUsch025]

Would you say that it is better to throw a knuckle curve at the age of 14, rather then a regular curve ball?

Coach told me it is better at this age because of how you just throw it like a fastball, and you don't have to mess around with your wrist.

Is it any more effective?

[cartersball]

My question to this is can the kid throw his fastball for a strike 7 times out of 10? Has he learned how to throw a two seam fast ball and a change up? If so, can he throw those pitches for strikes at least 50% of the time? If the answer to any of these is no then I don't see teaching him another pitch until he has something he can throw for a srtike consistently. Think about it, as a batter are you going to swing at a knuckle curve if the pitcher can't hit his spots with his fastball?

[EdmondsFan#1]

My question to this is can the kid throw his fastball for a strike 7 times out of 10? Has he learned how to throw a two seam fast ball and a change up? If so, can he throw those pitches for strikes at least 50% of the time? If the answer to any of these is no then I don't see teaching him another pitch until he has something he can throw for a srtike consistently. Think about it, as a batter are you going to swing at a knuckle curve if the pitcher can't hit his spots with his fastball?

I, actually, can control my fastballs very well but i never try to throw hard at all either, that might be why...

But i actually can control my curveball better than my changeup, and i don't think it's too suprising either. Changeup is the best pitch in baseball, and also the hardest to learn, so i think it should be no surpise if someone can throw a curveball more accurate than a changeup. But that's just my opinion...

Try this out drtybUsch025:

Gripping a 2-seamer, which i'm sure you know how to do, Slide your left finger over (assuming you are a rightie) so that both fingers are on the one lace. Then throw the ball like a fastball, for me it gives a good break. But, i'm also a leftie so it might be natural. I reccomend you see if it works for you, it certainly worked for me better than a knuckle curve.

[Utility07]

But i actually can control my curveball better than my changeup, and i don't think it's too suprising either. Changeup is the best pitch in baseball, and also the hardest to learn, so i think it should be no surpise if someone can throw a curveball more accurate than a changeup.


That is precisely why you DO NOT learn any more pitches until you can throw a change. It can be the most devastating pitch in baseball, but the hardest to master, and once many learn a curve, they fall in love with it, and don't understand why a changeup is such a valuable asset.

[-Kyle-]

That is precisely why you DO NOT learn any more pitches until you can throw a change. It can be the most devastating pitch in baseball, but the hardest to master, and once many learn a curve, they fall in love with it, and don't understand why a changeup is such a valuable asset.

Really? I can throw relatively hard, but it is much easier to throw my palmball and my changeup.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Really? I can throw relatively hard, but it is much easier to throw my palmball and my changeup.

Yes, Changeup is by the best pitch in baseball. Of course, combined with a fastball.

If you can get the fastball stuck in the batters head and then on say... a 3-1 pitch have them expecting fastball they will fall apart. Usually they miss or they lunge foward to quickly and can't hold up on it.

But, i just can't throw a changeup... I've been practicing it for 5 months now and i still can't throw one a bit, it's like 2 mph slower than my fastball...:grouchy

[flea45]

That is precisely why you DO NOT learn any more pitches until you can throw a change. It can be the most devastating pitch in baseball, but the hardest to master, and once many learn a curve, they fall in love with it, and don't understand why a changeup is such a valuable asset.

A very good friend of mine fell in love with his curve, neglected his change, and started out well...but eventually hitters learnt him. He then developed a change, got signed by the florida marlins, and has been better then ever, his changeup leading the way. it is absolutely devastating, and on top of that he has a nasty curve...mad even better by his change-up movement. If you wanna try what he did with his change...he throws it with his "pinkie" and his "ring finger"....its SICK.

[CanadianKid]

I throw a circle change and it has some sink to it.

[Chris O'Leary]

Would you say that it is better to throw a knuckle curve at the age of 14, rather then a regular curve ball?

Yes.

However, you should make sure your fastball and change-up are solid first.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

A very good friend of mine fell in love with his curve, neglected his change, and started out well...but eventually hitters learnt him. He then developed a change, got signed by the florida marlins, and has been better then ever, his changeup leading the way. it is absolutely devastating, and on top of that he has a nasty curve...mad even better by his change-up movement. If you wanna try what he did with his change...he throws it with his "pinkie" and his "ring finger"....its SICK.

Where is he? On the way to the majors?

[baseball=my life]

As many others have said, good control with your fastball and followed wit a good change is devastating. About the knuckle-curve, try throwing it from at decently long distance. It helped my control of the pitch. I'm not sure if this will work with you though.

[flea45]

Where is he? On the way to the majors?

LOL not just yet... hes still only 18...played short-season A this season i believe..his first of pro ball and did pretty well. He is playing is winter ball over here in Australia at the moment.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Cool. I didn't know there was baseball in Australia...

[duckydps]

Start Throwing curves when you are old enough to start working out in the gym with heavy weights. I was throwing curves at 14, but I was also old enough and grown enough where I could work out in the weightroom, I pitched threw HS and in to college and have never had any arm trouble

Good Luck!

[Chris O'Leary]

Start Throwing curves when you are old enough to start working out in the gym with heavy weights.

When you start working out with weight is completely irrelevant to when you should start throwing a curveball.

You should wait until you are 16 or 17 to start throwing a curveball.

[duckydps]

It is very relevant. If you body can handle the stress of lifting weights, than you will be able to throw a curve. Your arm will be under very similar stresses. Also, if you wait to 16 or 17 how in the world do you think you will be able to pitch in HS?????????? HS batters destroy change ups because most of the time they aren't thrown well at all. Most batter wont hit a good curve. Dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about.

[Chris O'Leary]

If you body can handle the stress of lifting weights, than you will be able to throw a curve.

Please cite a journal article that backs up this statement.


Your arm will be under very similar stresses.

Actually, very few people while lifting weights exercise the same muscles that they use when pitching.


Also, if you wait to 16 or 17 how in the world do you think you will be able to pitch in HS??????????

By learning to keep the ball down and to change speeds.

Trevor Hoffman didn't throw a curveball until he was in college. Last time I checked he was doing OK. Might have even set a record or something.


HS batters destroy change ups because most of the time they aren't thrown well at all. Most batter wont hit a good curve.

HS pitchers ought to be working on their change-ups rather than giving up on them.


Dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about.

You don't know what you're talking about. ;-)

[cartersball]

HS batters destroy change ups because most of the time they aren't thrown well at all.

From experience, with my 22 yr.old nephew, I can say for sure that this statement is completely true. The problem I have with it is that you are not helping your point, but actually adding fuel to the point I made and Chris has backed up. Yes most HS hitters destroy crappy changeups, but most of the pitchers throwing those crappy change ups are throwing more curveballs. Meaning, if they had been properly trained and groomed thier 4 seamer, 2 seamer, and change, then they wouldn't even throw the curve. My nephew graduated HS as the #2 pitching prospect in the state, got almost a full ride to a D-1 school and has excelled there for the last two seasons. Primarily, because he didn't learn to throw a curve until he was 19. I gauge success on the stats, and with three no-no's and one perfect game in HS I'd say he was pretty successful without the curve. BTW, the number one pitcher in the state that year was also throwing just those three pitches. Both of them were rated as top 200 prospects by Baseball America. So once again, the question,

If you wait to 16 or 17 how in the world do you think you will be able to pitch in HS??????????

has been answered.

[Billybob622]

When you start working out with weight is completely irrelevant to when you should start throwing a curveball.

You should wait until you are 16 or 17 to start throwing a curveball.

I don't know if i am wrong or not, but doesn't puberty, maturity and growth have a lot to do when a pitcher should start throwing a curve?, because not everyone develops at the same pace, rate, age, etc. I'm just curious.

[Chris O'Leary]

Yes most HS hitters destroy crappy changeups, but most of the pitchers throwing those crappy change ups are throwing more curveballs.

How good would a guy's change-up be if he practiced it exclusively instead of spending so much time working on his curveball?

That's the general problem with pitchers who throw too many kinds of pitches. They tend to have lot of weak pitches that guys will crush.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

The problem isn't with the pitch, it's with the pitcher's approach to developing the pitch.

[Chris O'Leary]

I don't know if i am wrong or not, but doesn't puberty, maturity and growth have a lot to do when a pitcher should start throwing a curve?, because not everyone develops at the same pace, rate, age, etc. I'm just curious.

Yes.

The rate at which a player matures will influence when their growth plates will close (and will influence their relative level of risk at a given moment). One guy who is "16" might be biologically 18 while another guy who is "16" might be biologically 15. 16 or 17 is the age at which most people's arms have matured.

The problem is that it's impossible to judge someone's biological age without looking at X-Rays.

This general principle was driven home to me over the weekend at my high school reunion. Some guys (generally the football players) basically haven't changed in appearance since they were 16 or 17. That's because they were early maturers. Other guys, who were late maturers, look completely different.

[Chris O'Leary]

I gauge success on the stats, and with three no-no's and one perfect game in HS I'd say he was pretty successful without the curve. BTW, the number one pitcher in the state that year was also throwing just those three pitches. Both of them were rated as top 200 prospects by Baseball America.

What!?!?

None of this "results" stuff matters. What matters is how hard he throws.

;-)

[cartersball]

What!?!?

None of this "results" stuff matters. What matters is how hard he throws.

;-)

LOL! Well, he didn't throw easy. As a senior in HS he was around 91-92 mph consistently. Still hasn't broken the 95 mph mark for more than one or two pitches. But, he did excel in the NECBL this summer. I don't even want to get into the arguement about radar. I can't rightfully remember the first time he was "gunned" but I am sure it was before HS. Not saying I agree with it, but I am not saying I disagree either. As far as I am concerned, he became what he is by learning proper mechanics early in the game. So IMO throwing hard comes from the mechanics, not the gun.
BTW, thanks for clearing up what I said about the HS change up.

[flea45]

Cool. I didn't know there was baseball in Australia...

I'd be lying if i said we had a lot of baseball in Australia, but i think we have 200 or so players in the japan and US major leagues, with hunderds more playing college ball.

We have good talent here....just not very much of it.

[duckydps]

Well where I come baseball is huge... our HS program has put out many great pitchers including several pros. Curve ball is why they got to where they are. We had 8 pitchers go to TOP d-1 schools. Clemson, South Carolina, Winthrop, The Citadel while I was there.

[Jake Patterson]

I don't know if i am wrong or not, but doesn't puberty, maturity and growth have a lot to do when a pitcher should start throwing a curve?, because not everyone develops at the same pace, rate, age, etc. I'm just curious.

There has been no definative studies that prove or disprove this. The University of North Carolina (?) is now conducting studies. I can find more info on this if you are interested.

[EdmondsFan#1]

It is very relevant. If you body can handle the stress of lifting weights, than you will be able to throw a curve. Your arm will be under very similar stresses. Also, if you wait to 16 or 17 how in the world do you think you will be able to pitch in HS?????????? HS batters destroy change ups because most of the time they aren't thrown well at all. Most batter wont hit a good curve. Dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about.

Barry Zito, master of the curveball, did not throw it until 16 years old.

[jojab]

Barry Zito, master of the curveball, did not throw it until 16 years old.

Anyone have a direct quote from Zio? I remember reading somewhere that Barry said he started throwing curve balls when he was seven (although he didn't necessarily recommend that for other kids).

Here is an interesting article on Zito. Sounds like his father was a bit like Tiger's father.

http://www.one-in-a-million.net/zito/zito-makes-pitch.html

[jojab]

I found where I had read it in some materials I have saved from Paul Nyman's old site. He was responding to some common things you'll hear from pitching coaches. He made this post in December of 2004.

Pitching Coach: This may be just me, but I'm not going teach any of my guys to throw (or even allow them to throw) a curveball or slider until they are 16. I am sticking with 4-seamer, 2-seamer, change-up, and knuckleball (the last mostly for fun). I also don't like to let them screw around with grips lest they stumble across a slider grip.

Paul Nyman:
Again I will repeat something that I have posted previously. Barry Zito (who has one of the best curveballs and major-league baseball) was asked at what age did you start throwing his curveball. After giving the standard rhetoric of how one should wait until their older before the start throwing a curveball he then said "well I'm not the best example of what you should do because I started throwing my curveball at seven years of age" the words to that effect.

Again everything I've read regarding your "analysis and suggestions" is right out of the baseball pitching coaches propaganda guide. That being said I also believe that the way you learn how to throw harder is to throw harder and that attempting to fool around with too many pitches such as a knuckleball distracts from that mission. At this age fastball and changeup and limited amounts of curveball. Not because of injury issues a rather because I believe working on a curveball before good throwing mechanics are ingrained can compromise good throwing mechanics. But I also believed to have a great curveball you must start young, and experiment with it more than relying on it in a game situation.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I heard about the barry zito 16 thing at Steve Ellis's site, I can't get a direct quote of it because i can't remember what blog/article I read it in.