Congratulations to Barry

[LouGehrig]

Barry Bonds must be congratulated by freedom loving fans for his great accomplishment of matching the National League career record for home runs, formerly held alone by Henry Aaron (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01).

Barry now shares a record that is among the most coveted in all of baseball.

[Blackout]

***************************

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I agree 100%. 125%, in fact. (I use a special cream to gain the extra 25%).

[Elvis]

Barry Bonds must be congratulated by freedom loving fans for his great accomplishment of matching the National League career record for home runs, formerly held alone by Henry Aaron.

Barry now shares a record that is among the most coveted in all of baseball.


And congratulations to me. I cheated big time on my history final and got the highest score ever in that class. I got an award for it too. Aren't you all proud of me? :rolleyes:

[Dodgerfan1]

And congratulations to me. I cheated big time on my history final and got the highest score ever in that class. I got an award for it too. Aren't you all proud of me? :rolleyes:

LOL! Not only is this a great tongue-in-cheek reply, Elvis, it's also very TRUE! Who said cheaters never prosper? :confused:

[TheKingofKings]

No comment , I hope Howard gets there in 10-16 Years and then there'll be a Clean leader .

[SamtheBravesFan]

No comment , I hope Howard gets there in 10-16 Years and then there'll be a Clean leader .

Wow, I don't even know what I'm going to be doing then. :crazy

[LouGehrig]

Such cynicism is uncalled for. In this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. One does not have to prove one's innocence. One's accuser must prove guilt.

Our government has acted against Greg Anderson and the writers who have received leaked grand jury testimony. This is a testament to the fact that we should and must trust our government to do the right thing.

Barry Bonds has not been charged with any crime. There are no charges that he has broken any law. Those facts cannot be denied.

Now, in a short period of time, based on a compromise between the former owner of the Texas Rangers and Republican leaders, an anti-terror bill will become a law of the land.

The bill allows hearsay evidence to be used against those accused of certain types of activities.

Barry Bonds has not and will not be accused of such activities. Barry Bonds has tied the National League record for most career home runs by a National Leaguer. All evidence against Barry is hearsay and hearsay charges cannot be used against Barry Bonds.

He had not been indicted for breaking ANY law. That is really the bottom line. Those who do not like it MYSELF INCLUDED, must live with it. It is the American way.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

You tell 'em.

But Barry is still such an embarrassment to MLB that they refused to include him on the NL Comeback Player of the Year ballot, although he clearly could win that award.

Barry is the third-greatest hitter of all time, by my metrics, behind Ruth and Williams. We should be celebrating this and we are not, due to our government singling him out for persecution. And our government, with all it's tools and money, has wasted years trying to do so with nothing to show for it.

[Dodgerfan1]

Such cynicism is uncalled for. In this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. One does not have to prove one's innocence. One's accuser must prove guilt.

Our government has acted against Greg Anderson and the writers who have received leaked grand jury testimony. This is a testament to the fact that we should and must trust our government to do the right thing.

Barry Bonds has not been charged with any crime. There are no charges that he has broken any law. Those facts cannot be denied.

Now, in a short period of time, based on a compromise between the former owner of the Texas Rangers and Republican leaders, an anti-terror bill will become a law of the land.

The bill allows hearsay evidence to be used against those accused of certain types of activities.

Barry Bonds has not and will not be accused of such activities. Barry Bonds has tied the National League record for most career home runs by a National Leaguer. All evidence against Barry is hearsay and hearsay charges cannot be used against Barry Bonds.

He had not been indicted for breaking ANY law. That is really the bottom line. Those who do not like it MYSELF INCLUDED, must live with it. It is the American way.

Barry Bonds has admitted to taking the drug, he just claimed that he didn't know what it was. At least, that's what I have been led to believe. Is this not true? If it is, then the stats are tainted anyway, we just don't know if Barry intentionally tainted them. I guess the size of Barry's head just grew and he got huge as he got older. Some people just don't age very gracefully....

For years, Pete Rose denied betting on baseball. Do you believe him?

[Blackout]

you're correct dodgerfan, he did admit to it, and said he didn't "know what it was" but trusted Anderson enough to take it without question

and bonds* is a ****bag, he deserves all the negativity in his life

[Elvis]

This is a testament to the fact that we should and must trust our government to do the right thing.

Uh....no.

Anyway, Barroid already admited to cheating, he just said, "Golly gee, I thought they were...(lawyer whispers into ear) Vitamins, yeah, that's it I thought they were vitamins."

People are innocent until proven guilty, but after he admitted he was dirty he was no longer clean/innocent, was he?

[LouGehrig]

Uh....no.

Anyway, Barroid already admited to cheating, he just said, "Golly gee, I thought they were...(lawyer whispers into ear) Vitamins, yeah, that's it I thought they were vitamins."

People are innocent until proven guilty, but after he admitted he was dirty he was no longer clean/innocent, was he?


He was and still is innocent of any illegal activity. If there were evidence against him, our government would take the necessary steps to see that he were rehabilated and of equal importance, to ensure that others did not do what he had done.

But that has NOT happened, has it? No, it hasn't. He is innocent of breaking any laws until proven otherwise. It really is that simple.

By the way, with respect to cheating, how about this:

http://www.armchairgm.com/mwiki/index.php?title=Me_and_the_Spitter:_An_Autobiograp hical_Confession

[Skin & Bones]

Bonds has actually never admitted to using steroids. Bonds testified that he took flaxseed oil and an arthritic balm given too him by Greg Anderson. The Federal Prosecutor speculated that what Bonds was describing sounded like the " Cream " and the " Clear. " That's NOT admitting to using illegal steroids.

Now on the otherhand, Aaron did admit to using Amphetamines. This is a fact.

[Dodgerfan1]

He was and still is innocent of any illegal activity. If there were evidence against him, our government would take the necessary steps to see that he were rehabilated and of equal importance, to ensure that others did not do what he had done.

But that has NOT happened, has it? No, it hasn't. He is innocent of breaking any laws until proven otherwise. It really is that simple.

By the way, with respect to cheating, how about this:

http://www.armchairgm.com/mwiki/index.php?title=Me_and_the_Spitter:_An_Autobiograp hical_Confession

Lou, while I admire your fierce loyalty to Barry Bonds, that loyalty is sadly misplaced, IMO. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that Barry DIDN'T know he was taking steroids. he still TOOK THEM, regardless of whether he 'knew it' or not, by his OWN admission. Therefore, by his very admission, his HR numbers are artificially inflated and therefore his achievement of tying Aaron for the NL home run record is suspect, at best, and phony at worst.

[Dodgerfan1]

Bonds has actually never admitted to using steroids. Bonds testified that he took flaxseed oil and an arthritic balm given too him by Greg Anderson. The Federal Prosecutor speculated that what Bonds was describing sounded like the " Cream " and the " Clear. " That's NOT admitting to using illegal steroids.

Now on the otherhand, Aaron did admit to using Amphetamines. This is a fact.

Here is an article you may have missed...

http://www.news10.net/storyfull1.asp?id=8686

[mojorisin71]

For years, Pete Rose denied betting on baseball. Do you believe him?

A better question is, did anyone believe him then?

[Skin & Bones]

Here is an article you may have missed...

http://www.news10.net/storyfull1.asp?id=8686

I didn't miss anything. That article detailing the leaked testimony is a lead in mischaracterizing what Bonds testified. Again, Bonds said he took Flax Seed Oil and Arthritic Balm Greg Anderson gave to him. Prosecutors SPECULATED that what Bonds was describing sounded like the Clear and the Cream. Heck, just look at it this way, if Bonds had admitted to using the Cream and the Clear steroids, there wouldn't be any question whatsoever of perjury.

[runningshoes]

Such cynicism is uncalled for. In this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. One does not have to prove one's innocence. One's accuser must prove guilt.

Ah yes..the great equalizer. :rolleyes:

[SamtheBravesFan]

A better question is, did anyone believe him then?

Some did, probably.

[Dodgerfan1]

I didn't miss anything. That article detailing the leaked testimony is a lead in mischaracterizing what Bonds testified. Again, Bonds said he took Flax Seed Oil and Arthritic Balm Greg Anderson gave to him. Prosecutors SPECULATED that what Bonds was describing sounded like the Clear and the Cream. Heck, just look at it this way, if Bonds had admitted to using the Cream and the Clear steroids, there wouldn't be any question whatsoever of perjury.

I don't wish to get into an argument about semantics. If you actually believe Barry Bonds, more power to you.

[Elvis]

He was and still is innocent of any illegal activity. If there were evidence against him, our government would take the necessary steps to see that he were rehabilated and of equal importance, to ensure that others did not do what he had done.


This is silly. I could NOT care less about the illegal activity stuff. Pete Rose never did anything "illegal" with respect to betting did he? Does that make any difference?

Fact: Bonds used steroids. Fact, fact, fact. He admitted it - it's a done deal. End of story. Live in a fairy tale world where he didn't - it's no skin off my nose.

[Skin & Bones]

I don't wish to get into an argument about semantics. If you actually believe Barry Bonds, more power to you.

It has nothing to do with believing Barry Bonds, it has to do with what he actually said. The closest thing to that is when he told them the only way possible is if Anderson slipped it to him unknowingly. He then added that being they were lifelong friends, he couldn't see Anderson jeopardizing their friendship in that way.


But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of anything.

[Skin & Bones]

This is silly. I could NOT care less about the illegal activity stuff. Pete Rose never did anything "illegal" with respect to betting did he? Does that make any difference?

Fact: Bonds used steroids. Fact, fact, fact. He admitted it - it's a done deal. End of story. Live in a fairy tale world where he didn't - it's no skin off my nose.

And here ladies and gentlemen, is an example of somebody ignoring the facts.

[Dodgerfan1]

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of anything.

It's obviously a credo you live by. Okay, you've sold me, Bonds is innocent of taking steroids in any form and every one of his home runs are legitimate.

There. Now we're all happy campers....:rolleyes:

[Skin & Bones]

It's obviously a credo you live by. Okay, you've sold me, Bonds is innocent of taking steroids in any form and every one of his home runs are legitimate.

There. Now we're all happy campers....:rolleyes:

I believe Bonds used drugs, but that has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. It has to do with what he actually said. And in that testimony, he did NOT admit to using steroids.

[Dodgerfan1]

I believe Bonds used drugs, but that has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. It has to do with what he actually said. And in that testimony, he did NOT admit to using steroids.

Hmmm. And here all this time I thought we were discussing whether or not Bonds' tying Hank Aaron's NL homer record was tainted or not. But you agree with me, then, that it is tainted, because you believe he used drugs. Again, we are all happy campers....

[Elvis]

And here ladies and gentlemen, is an example of somebody ignoring the facts.

And it's a fact that a certain former HOF running back didn't kill his wife. Facts are cool, M'kay.

[rwolfe09]

I believe Rose never did anything illegal and that he should be in the HOF for his baseball stats and records only.

And about Bonds. I know he did some sort of performance enhancing drug. But that wont kill my excitement on him bearing down on the record. Steroids or not, 733 HRs (and counting) hit in a career is pretty good. Now, if he admits to knowingly doing the steroids then he's done. But if it so well happened to be like what happened with Sheffield where he "unknowingly" did the 'roids then it will fade out of the spotlight. Practically no one talks about Sheffield and steroids anymore.

[Dodgerfan1]

I believe Rose never did anything illegal and that he should be in the HOF for his baseball stats and records only.

And about Bonds. I know he did some sort of performance enhancing drug. But that wont kill my excitement on him bearing down on the record. Steroids or not, 733 HRs (and counting) hit in a career is pretty good. Now, if he admits to knowingly doing the steroids then he's done. But if it so well happened to be like what happened with Sheffield where he "unknowingly" did the 'roids then it will fade out of the spotlight. Practically no one talks about Sheffield and steroids anymore.

While I understand your logic here, I think the issue for Bonds will not go away like it seemingly has for Sheffield because Bonds is closing in on a highly coveted and admired record, whereas Sheffield is not. Once someone achieves that level of fame and notoriety, he is subject to a media rectal exam the likes of which would never occur to one of a lower stature.

No, I'm afraid, for better or worse, that Bonds will always have a stigma attached to him because he did what no one else did. He caught, and surpassed, the lifetime home run champion and first ballot HOF'er, Henry Aaron, a player who was admired and respected by everyone. Unfortunately, because of the steroids, he will never be accepted by most fans as holding the crown legitimately.

[EvanAparra]

Congrats Barry!! :) :) :)

[Skin & Bones]

Hmmm. And here all this time I thought we were discussing whether or not Bonds' tying Hank Aaron's NL homer record was tainted or not. But you agree with me, then, that it is tainted, because you believe he used drugs. Again, we are all happy campers....

No, we don't agree. What I believe isn't a fact. Aaron admitting to using Amphetamines is a fact. Is his record tainted ?

[Skin & Bones]

And it's a fact that a certain former HOF running back didn't kill his wife. Facts are cool, M'kay.

Ah the OJ comparison. Always works to get ourselves out of a bind, eh ?

[Elvis]

Ah the OJ comparison. Always works to get ourselves out of a bind, eh ?

It comes in handy. :lookitup

[Astro]

Dont you people ever get tired of saying the samething over and over again, for the past 2 years? Honestly

[Elvis]

Dont you people ever get tired of saying the samething over and over again, for the past 2 years? Honestly

Me? No, not really. :) You?

[Skin & Bones]

He just passed Aaron.

[Elvis]

He just passed Aaron.

That's nice. I just cheated on my income taxes.

[EvanAparra]

Well Aaron took amphetamines. So no one passed no one?

[Williamsburg2599]

Dont you people ever get tired of saying the samething over and over again, for the past 2 years? Honestly
Both sides of this argument have being saying the same things over and over for the last 2 years, that's the problem. Untill any PROOF comes out, neither side of this argument is ever going to win.

[Astro]

Both sides of this argument have being saying the same things over and over for the last 2 years, that's the problem. Untill any PROOF comes out, neither side of this argument is ever going to win.
Right, and they still insist on saying the samething over and over again... It's sad

When I saw this thread, before anyone posted, I knew it was going to become "HE CHEATEEEEEEEEEED" and "PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF???????????"

[LouGehrig]

Here is an article you may have missed...

http://www.news10.net/storyfull1.asp?id=8686


But what did he do that was ILLEGAL?

[LouGehrig]

Lou, while I admire your fierce loyalty to Barry Bonds, that loyalty is sadly misplaced, ....

I am NOT loyal, fiercely or otherwise, to Barry Bonds. He ranks at the bottom of my all time favorites, but that is not the issue.

I THINK he is guilty, not only of cheating, but of taking illegal substances. And that is JUST the point. What anyone THINKS is irrelevant until what one thinks can be proven.

To me, Roger Maris is the single season home run champion, and Henry Aaron is the all time leader in home runs, and Babe Ruth is the greatest home run hitter of all time.

[LouGehrig]

This is silly. I could NOT care less about the illegal activity stuff. Pete Rose never did anything "illegal" with respect to betting did he? Does that make any difference?

Fact: Bonds used steroids. Fact, fact, fact. He admitted it - it's a done deal. End of story. Live in a fairy tale world where he didn't - it's no skin off my nose.


Perhaps you coud document your Fact.

[LouGehrig]

It's obviously a credo you live by. Okay, you've sold me, Bonds is innocent of taking steroids in any form and every one of his home runs are legitimate.

There. Now we're all happy campers....:rolleyes:


Your sarcasm is exceeded only by your facetiousness.

[LouGehrig]

And it's a fact that a certain former HOF running back didn't kill his wife. Facts are cool, M'kay.

This really is amazing. Let's get it straight. In the greatest country in the history of personkind, those accused of crimes usually have the right to a trial by a jury of their peers. While the "certain former HOF running back" had few peers as a running back, his peers in everyday life listened to the evidence, evaluated the LAPD, and arrived at a verdict.

In a land of laws, in a land of the free and the brave, we accept the decisions made by a jury. So yes, he didn't kill his wife and just to confirm it, he is not in jail and is free to pursue any activities he desires, including trying to find his wife's killers.

[Elvis]

I am NOT loyal, fiercely or otherwise, to Barry Bonds. He ranks at the bottom of my all time favorites, but that is not the issue.

I THINK he is guilty, not only of cheating, but of taking illegal substances. And that is JUST the point. What anyone THINKS is irrelevant until what one thinks can be proven.

To me, Roger Maris is the single season home run champion, and Henry Aaron is the all time leader in home runs, and Babe Ruth is the greatest home run hitter of all time.

Well, at least we agree on some things, ol' chap. :clapping

Look, I couldn't care less about him being procecuted for anything illegal, after all this is baseball, not giving away secret nuclear technology. In a court of law I agree with you 100%. But in the baseball record books Bonds is a fraud in his "record numbers". He's one of the game's greatest, I agree, but his numbers and official records are a big smelly fraud. And I and a lot of others will always be loud and vocal about making sure that is well known forever.

[LouGehrig]

Congrats Barry!! :) :) :)


As Ella Fitzgerald and others sang, At Last.

[LouGehrig]

Both sides of this argument have being saying the same things over and over for the last 2 years, that's the problem. Untill any PROOF comes out, neither side of this argument is ever going to win.


You miss the point completely. Until any PROOF comes out, Bonds must be taken at face value. That is the point. Innocent until proven otherwise.

[EvanAparra]

As Ella Fitzgerald and others sang, At Last.

Dont get yourself too worked up here, its been done way too much. Im on your side of the fence, although i dont agree about the whole Maris/Aaron thing. But no one stands to reason, or meet in the middle. Sucks really..

[Elvis]

This really is amazing. Let's get it straight. In the greatest country in the history of personkind, those accused of crimes usually have the right to a trial by a jury of their peers. While the "certain former HOF running back" had few peers as a running back, his peers in everyday life listened to the evidence, evaluated the LAPD, and arrived at a verdict.

In a land of laws, in a land of the free and the brave, we accept the decisions made by a jury. So yes, he didn't kill his wife and just to confirm it, he is not in jail and is free to pursue any activities he desires, including trying to find his wife's killers.

What about verdicts that are overturned after many years because of DNA evidence?

Was that innocent man who spent 25 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit "justly punished" just because a jury said so? Do jurys never make mistakes? :noidea You can't be that naive to believe that every jury case is decided correctly.

And if it isn't we should just sit on our thumbs and say nothing?????

[LouGehrig]

Dont get yourself too worked up here, its been done way too much. Im on your side of the fence, although i dont agree about the whole Maris/Aaron thing. But no one stands to reason, or meet in the middle. Sucks really..

But it's so much fun. And I love being facetious.

Seriously, the entire matter is disgusting.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I'm pissed. I'm not saying he is not a great player, but he used performance enhancing drugs, and even though he was still great before he used them and he still had to be a great player to hit that many homeruns and get the bat on the ball that well so many times with or without the added strength; Cheating is cheating and that's that. Even if it might have only been 1 time he used them...

[SamtheBravesFan]

I'm pissed. I'm not saying he is not a great player, but he used performance enhancing drugs, and even though he was still great before he used them and he still had to be a great player to hit that many homeruns and get the bat on the ball that well so many times with or without the added strength; Cheating is cheating and that's that. Even if it might have only been 1 time he used them...

So therefore, you think that the real home run record is 714. Because Hank Aaron admitted to using greenies once.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

While you were out ...

Barry also just passed Aaron in career Runs Created ... a stat you never hear mentioned.

According to ESPN, Barry has created 94 runs this season, so far, which gives him 2595 RC for his career. That is second to Ruth's 2757 RC.

Barry has also just passed Robin Yount in career Games played, with 2857. This is 13th on the all time list. Next up: Brooks Robinson, with 2896. Maybe next year.

Barry also has 586 career doubles, which is 14th on the all time list.

Barry has scored 2151 runs, which is 6th all time. He needs 14 more to catch Pete Rose.

Barry has 1930 RBI, and has passed Mel Ott, Eddie Murray, Willie Mays and Jimmie Foxx this season, to move into 7th place all time. He needs 7 more RBI to catch Ty Cobb for 6th place.


It's not just home runs, people. Barry hits doubles, draws walks, gets on base, scores runs and drives in runs ... and he's up there with the all time greatst in ALL of those categories. He was even known to steal a base back in the day.

Put an asterisk next to THAT.

[EvanAparra]

While you were out ...

Barry also just passed Aaron in career Runs Created ... a stat you never hear mentioned.

According to ESPN, Barry has created 94 runs this season, so far, which gives him 2595 RC for his career. That is second to Ruth's 2757 RC.

Barry has also just passed Robin Yount in career Games played, with 2857. This is 13th on the all time list. Next up: Brooks Robinson, with 2896. Maybe next year.

Barry also has 586 career doubles, which is 14th on the all time list.

Barry has scored 2151 runs, which is 6th all time. He needs 14 more to catch Pete Rose.

Barry has 1930 RBI, and has passed Mel Ott, Eddie Murray, Willie Mays and Jimmie Foxx this season, to move into 7th place all time. He needs 7 more RBI to catch Ty Cobb for 6th place.


It's not just home runs, people. Barry hits doubles, draws walks, gets on base, scores runs and drives in runs ... and he's up there with the all time greatst in ALL of those categories. He was even known to steal a base back in the day.

Put an asterisk next to THAT.

:clapping :clapping :clapping

[JimAbbott]

Bonds is greatness. His numbers are looking really nice for the year now. I dont give a rats hind qtrs about roids

[SHOELESSJOE3]

There should be no asterisk, Barry's numbers will stand and they should. Still that dark cloud will follow him even after he retires. Like it or not some of his numbers will alway be in doubt, now and by future fans, thats just life. Lets face the facts, MLB does not want the whole story to come out, what ever it is, not just Barry there are others. MLB just does not want another black eye. Bud Selig's nightmare has come to be, that the steroid deal would blow up in his face.

Bud and MLB just want the whole deal to go away, fast.

[EdmondsFan#1]

So therefore, you think that the real home run record is 714. Because Hank Aaron admitted to using greenies once.

No, and what's greenies?

I didn't even want barry to pass aaron in NL homeruns... Sickens me... I admit he is talented but still...

[ESPNFan]

Dont you people ever get tired of saying the samething over and over again, for the past 2 years? Honestly

Well I guess when you used 5 or 6 different nicks to do it it keeps everything fresh right? :D

[SamtheBravesFan]

No, and what's greenies?


Greenies are amphetemines, considered cheating. Aaron admitted taking them once and said that he didn't do it again because he didn't like it. Dare you hold him to the "cheating once, a cheater forever" standard?

[Dodgerfan1]

Greenies are amphetemines, considered cheating. Aaron admitted taking them once and said that he didn't do it again because he didn't like it. Dare you hold him to the "cheating once, a cheater forever" standard?

Greenies were/are illegal and so is steroids. Hmmm. Let's put that into perspective.

Translation: Speeding is illegal and so is assault and battery. Hardly the same thing.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Greenies were/are illegal and so is steroids. Hmmm. Let's put that into perspective.

Translation: Speeding is illegal and so is assault and battery. Hardly the same thing.

Well, what I was trying to do is to get him out of the "cheat once, cheater forever" thing.

[Elvis]

Greenies were/are illegal and so is steroids. Hmmm. Let's put that into perspective.

Translation: Speeding is illegal and so is assault and battery. Hardly the same thing.

yeah, and killing is killing. It doesn't matter if it's killing an intruder breaking into your home or killing a cop because he's pulling you over for speeding.

[Skin & Bones]

Greenies were/are illegal and so is steroids. Hmmm. Let's put that into perspective.

Translation: Speeding is illegal and so is assault and battery. Hardly the same thing.

This really isn't a good comparison, since greenies are proven performance enhancing drugs.

But hey, why should we listen to the facts ?

[Elvis]

This really isn't a good comparison, since greenies are proven performance enhancing drugs.

But hey, why should we listen to the facts ?

And how many records did Aaron smash while under the influence of greenies?

By the way, Red Bull is also a proven performance-enhancing drug that is commonly drunk in the dugout. :D

[Skin & Bones]

And how many records did Aaron smash while under the influence of greenies?
How many records did Aaron smash under greenies ? You'll have to ask him that. And I doubt he'll tell you the truth.

By the way, Red Bull is also a proven performance-enhancing drug that is commonly drunk in the dugout.


Good, and certain creatines enhance performance. Heck, ZMA enhances performance. But if these things worked alone, players wouldn't be resorting to taking the illegal stuff.

[Elvis]

Good, and certain creatines enhance performance. Heck, ZMA enhances performance. But if these things worked alone, players wouldn't be resorting to taking the illegal stuff.

Exactly.

---------------

[Skin & Bones]

Exactly.

---------------

And it goes for Greenies too...If starbucks coffee and redbull worked, players wouldn't resort to taking the illegal stuff ( now the undetectable illegal stuff).

[ESPNFan]

And it goes for Greenies too...If starbucks coffee and redbull worked, players wouldn't resort to taking the illegal stuff ( now the undetectable illegal stuff).

But thats exactly what they are doing, drinking coffee, redbull, taking legal stimulants. Like Buster said early in the season lots of players realised that alot of what amphetamines did were a cause of the feelings of euphoria they provide.

And as far as Aaron goes you sound like a fool when you say Aaron cheated because there was no MLB rule at all pertaining to greenies when he reported took them. Its imposible to cheat if its not againt the rules, but like you adore saying, hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of anything. :laugh

[DodgerBlue81]

All evidence against Barry is hearsay and hearsay charges cannot be used against Barry Bonds.


He used steroids. Get it through your naive mind. He's guilty; live with it.

[EvanAparra]

Oh ok. At least we have evidence now. An eye witness!

[DodgerBlue81]

In a land of laws, in a land of the free and the brave, we accept the decisions made by a jury. So yes, he didn't kill his wife and just to confirm it, he is not in jail and is free to pursue any activities he desires, including trying to find his wife's killers.

You need to get your head out of the clouds with this innocent until proven guilty BS. OJ was guilty. You'd have to be a moron to seriously believe otherwise. I bet Johnny Cochrane and the other lawyers didn't even believe that. They were just doing their job that they were getting paid a ton of money to do.

[DodgerBlue81]

Oh ok. At least we have evidence now. An eye witness!

Oh another Barroids apologist. :rolleyes:

[EvanAparra]

Oh no, another person that doesnt know squat about what really happened, shooting their mouth off in a thread meant to congratulate him.

[DodgerBlue81]

Oh no, another person that doesnt know squat about what really happened, shooting their mouth off in a thread meant to congratulate him.

You can congratulate him on being a great player all you want. He is a great player regardless of the steroids. But to defend him against the steroid charges is absurd.

[EvanAparra]

To come into this thread and say what you are saying is absurd.

[runningshoes]

In the greatest country in the history of personkind

It looks like you're the one who might need to presents a few facts of your own to back up that claim.

[EvanAparra]

It looks like you're the one who might need to presents a few facts of your own to back up that claim.

The game of baseball was invented in the US. Case CLOSED. :clapping :clapping :clapping

[runningshoes]

The game of baseball was invented in the US. Case CLOSED. :clapping :clapping :clapping

But that's not what he said, is it? :p

[DodgerBlue81]

To come into this thread and say what you are saying is absurd.

No it's not. :rolleyes:

[Mattingly]

And it's a fact that a certain former HOF running back didn't kill his wife. Facts are cool, M'kay.
What exactly does OJ Simpson have to do with Barry Bonds? I don't happen to see any relevance between someone accused of killing their wife and her waiter friend, and someone else in a different sport being accused of using PEDs to gain superior offense at a later age. Other than living in the same state, I don't get the connection.
You need to get your head out of the clouds with this innocent until proven guilty BS. OJ was guilty. You'd have to be a moron to seriously believe otherwise. I bet Johnny Cochrane and the other lawyers didn't even believe that. They were just doing their job that they were getting paid a ton of money to do.
Since one Orenthal James Simpson never played baseball professionally, can we please just leave his name totally out of this discussion?

Thanks. :)

[Mattingly]

He used steroids. Get it through your naive mind. He's guilty; live with it.
Oh ok. At least we have evidence now. An eye witness!
Oh another Barroids apologist. :rolleyes:
Oh no, another person that doesnt know squat about what really happened, shooting their mouth off in a thread meant to congratulate him.
You two feel like keepin this discussion civil, please? Thanks.

[west coast orange and black]

blackout805: ***************************

*** *** **** ** *** ** ***** **** ******* ******* **** **** ******** *** *****?

[west coast orange and black]

Dodgerfan1: Barry Bonds has admitted to taking the drug, he just claimed that he didn't know what it was. At least, that's what I have been led to believe. Is this not true?

no, it is not.

[west coast orange and black]

blackout805: you're correct dodgerfan, he did admit to it, and said he didn't "know what it was"...

wrong here...

[west coast orange and black]

Elvis: Barroid already admited to cheating...

and here.

[Mattingly]

Dodgerfan1: Barry Bonds has admitted to taking the drug, he just claimed that he didn't know what it was. At least, that's what I have been led to believe. Is this not true?

no, it is not.
In that case, did Barry admit to taking whatever his trainer gave him? I think this was some "flax seed oil" but was accused by some of being the "cream and the clear" substances?

[west coast orange and black]

Dodgerfan1: [Bonds] still TOOK THEM, regardless of whether he 'knew it' or not, by his OWN admission.

as of today, bonds has not ever stated publicly (nor in testimony to the federal grand jury) that he took steroids... unknowingly or otherwise.
now, one can believe that bonds took steroids -- there is evidence that shows that he did -- but no one can rightfully claim that bond has admitted to such use.

[west coast orange and black]

Dodgerfan1: I don't wish to get into an argument about semantics.

admitting a wrongdoing v not admitting a wrongdoing is not semantics.
please refer to previous post.

[west coast orange and black]

Dodgerfan1: It's obviously a credo you live by. Okay, you've sold me, Bonds is innocent of taking steroids in any form and every one of his home runs are legitimate.

There. Now we're all happy campers... :rolleyes:

now you're just being condescending.

[west coast orange and black]

LouGehrig: I am NOT loyal, fiercely or otherwise, to Barry Bonds...

spot-on post, man.

[runningshoes]

Surely there's a better way to increase you post count, Tony. ;)

arent there a few vote-off games running as we speak? :laugh

[west coast orange and black]

this thread, a congrats to bonds one, got me recalling bonds' 1996 season, his 40/40 season.

bonds entered the final month of the season with 25 stolen bases and promptly declared that he would reach 40. what bonds did is swipe 15 in his 25 games played.

[west coast orange and black]

runningshoes: Surely there's a better way to increase you post count, Tony. ;)

only my friends call me tony... so knock it off.

[runningshoes]

only my friends call me tony... so knock it off.

What, we're not friends? :(

[EvanAparra]

runningshoes: Surely there's a better way to increase you post count, Tony. ;)

only my friends call me tony... so knock it off.

Ouch! :eek:

[Dodgerfan1]

Dodgerfan1: I don't wish to get into an argument about semantics.

admitting a wrongdoing v not admitting a wrongdoing is not semantics.
please refer to previous post.

I bailed out of this argument a long time ago because it was getting too childish and 'he said, she said' for me, and I was guilty of contributing to that. All we have to go on, at this point, is what we hear in the media (which is a very sketchy source of truth nowadays). I read what, presumably, everyone else did, and I presented an article with the heading "Bonds admits taking Steroids". The article does go on to say that he only took what he was given, not knowing what they were.

So, in the same article, we have an argument for both sides of this debate, and in both cases it's documented. This is a no-win debate, and I just didn't think it was worth my time anymore, but since I'm still being quoted and told how wrong I am by some, I thought I'd give my side of it.

It's my personal belief, based on whatever 'evidence' there may be, that Bonds did, indeed, take the drug. He got huge all of a sudden and his power numbers skyrocketed, for one thing. However, I wasn't there so I can't prove anything, one way or another, and I've spoken my peace so I'm moving on. This debate has run its course for me.

[Hammerin Hank]

WCOAB: I think you are Barry Bonds.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Something I haven't heard explained yet:

Through age 33 (1998 season), Barry had an OPS+ of 163. That is the 13th highest OPS+ in baseball history, through age 33.

Barry won 3 MVP awards through age 33, and was in the top-5 FOUR other times. Even Musial didn't get that kind of respect through age 33.

Through 1998, Barry was in the top-5 in every batting category, including OPS, SB, RC, SLG ... you name it. And he won 8 Gold Gloves through 1998.

How could that be? I was under the impression that he was no better than Lonnie Smith before 1999.

Anyone care to explain?

Don't bother. People hate Barry. I get that. People think he's spoiled and obnoxious. Not a problem. I understand.

But when people try to deny what he did on the field, especially before 1999, then that is purely stupid. Otherwise sane baseball fans actually try to deny that Barry was a great player -- an ALL TIME, TOP-20 great player, through age 33, simply because they don't like him. That is just nuts.

[runningshoes]

Ouch! :eek:

You win some; you lose some.

Looks like I can put this one in the win column.

He keeps a copious supply of tissues handy. You'll learn that soon enough.

[LouGehrig]

He used steroids. Get it through your naive mind. He's guilty; live with it.


Please provide the evidence. Or is evidence no longer necessary? Perhaps in YOUR mind, since there is much hearsay with respect to Mr. Bonds' use of organic substances, hearsay can be used in lieu of evidence and therefore declare him (or anyone else) guilty.

There used to be a regime in a European country that subscribed to such procedures.

[LouGehrig]

But that's not what he said, is it? :p


Actually, that is a valid interpretation of what I purportedly stated.

[LouGehrig]

this thread, a congrats to bonds one, got me recalling bonds' 1996 season, his 40/40 season.

bonds entered the final month of the season with 25 stolen bases and promptly declared that he would reach 40. what bonds did is swipe 15 in his 25 games played.

I guess he can be accused of taking "speed" in order to increase his chances of stealing successfully.

[Elvis]

Please provide the evidence. Or is evidence no longer necessary? Perhaps in YOUR mind, since there is much hearsay with respect to Mr. Bonds' use of organic substances, hearsay can be used in lieu of evidence and therefore declare him (or anyone else) guilty.

There used to be a regime in a European country that subscribed to such procedures.

This all reminds me of something...

In the 1970s, virtually every rock star or group was interviewed, and one or more of the questions always came up in these interviews: "Do you take drugs?" 90% or so of these answers were always, "No, I don't do drugs. I get high on life."

Everyone knew that most of them were lying of course, but invariably there were always some who actually believed them.

[west coast orange and black]

just in case you are still reading, Dodgerfan1, nowhere in the "Bonds admits taking Steroids" article is it claimed that bonds used steroids. so, both sides of this debate are not on display.

the disconnect is that, according to the feds, there is no way to tell what substances, exactly, bonds used. as i wrote, there is evidence that bonds used... it's just that the evidence does not include an admission by bonds.

[west coast orange and black]

runningshoes: Looks like I can put this one in the win column.

about time, don'tcha think?

He keeps a copious supply of tissues handy.

more evidence that you have little clue about me.

[west coast orange and black]

LouGehrig: I guess he can be accused of taking "speed"...

:laugh good one, dude.

[runningshoes]

about time, don'tcha think?

You keep right on deluding yourself, Barry. ;)

[Skin & Bones]

But thats exactly what they are doing, drinking coffee, redbull, taking legal stimulants. Like Buster said early in the season lots of players realised that alot of what amphetamines did were a cause of the feelings of euphoria they provide.

Buster can be naive. There's undetectable amphetamines out there. The Amphetamines testing is a joke. HiddenGem has specifically said there are still players on 40 man rosters using these drugs because the first offense is a joke.

But hey, if you want to believe players are resorting to crap like red bull and starbucks coffee, instead of taking the undetectable amphetamines, go right ahead.




And as far as Aaron goes you sound like a fool when you say Aaron cheated because there was no MLB rule at all pertaining to greenies when he reported took them. Its imposible to cheat if its not againt the rules, but like you adore saying, hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of anything. :laugh

When did I say Aaron cheated ?

The only person who looks like a fool is you. Find me one post of mine where I specifically said Aaron is a cheater.

[STLCards2]

No comment , I hope Howard gets there in 10-16 Years and then there'll be a Clean leader .

You realize that in 16 years, the already slow and overwieght Howard will be 43? Howard got way too late of a start to hit 755 (or whatever Bonds ends up with.)

A- Rod and Pujols have shots, but A-Rod is a mental case at times, and Pujols is racking up little, nagging injuries. I still think both have a much better chance than Howard.

[west coast orange and black]

Mattingly: ...did Barry admit to taking whatever his trainer gave him?
bonds allegedly testified that he used what substances anderson gave to him.


I think this was some "flax seed oil" but was accused by some of being the "cream and the clear" substances?
bonds allegedly testified that the substances that he used that were given to him by anderson included a nutritional supplement - flaxseed oil - and a rubbing balm for arthritis.
many have claimed that "the cream" and "clear" ("the clear") were the actual substances that bonds used, but the feds are not among those who have made those claims.

[Astro]

http://www.oddjack.com/dead%20horse.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/whip_guide/2swivels.jpg

Have at it...

[soberdennis]

http://www.oddjack.com/dead%20horse.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/whip_guide/2swivels.jpg

Have at it...
Thank you for putting it in its proper perspective. people are beating a dead horse.
In this country, there is such a thing as a man is presumed innocent of any charges until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Circumstantial evidence and accusations by others are not proof of guilt.
I am not saying that Barry or any other ballplayer did not use Steroids. I just am not convinced that it has been proven. As long as we do not have proof, we shouldn't keep harping on this the way so many people seem to insist on doing.

[bluezebra]

Barry Bonds must be congratulated by freedom loving fans for his great accomplishment of matching the National League career record for home runs, formerly held alone by Henry Aaron (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01).

Barry now shares a record that is among the most coveted in all of baseball.

So, your definition of 'freedom-loving' includes cheating by taking growth and/or performance-enhancing drugs?

To use the nom-de-plume of Lou Gehrig, and defend a scum like Bonds is not only an insult to Gehrig, but to all true baseball fans.

To parafrase: Better records through chemistry

Bob

[soberdennis]

So, your definition of 'freedom-loving' includes cheating by taking growth and/or performance-enhancing drugs?

To use the nom-de-plume of Lou Gehrig, and defend a scum like Bonds is not only an insult to Gehrig, but to all true baseball fans.

To parafrase: Better records through chemistry

Bob
Once it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he used PEDs knowingly over a lengthy period of time, I will agree with you. I am not a fan of Bonds. But I think any man deserves due process.
But some people have already convicted Bonds. Fortunately that is not how our judicial system works. Nor should the courts of Baseball work that way.Congratulations, Barry. I'll leave it at that and leave this "Bash Barry " thread alone.
My days of teaching Civics officially ends now.

[nolanryan5714]

Man, this thread is really getting old.

I offer no "congrats" to the guy, for the record. Who cares though, at this point it's just another Barry argument.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Here is an article written by Bill James in 2000, for his New Historical Baseball Abstract.

He is ranking the top 100 players of all time, and has Barry ranked 16th, after the 1999 (injury) season:


Barry Bonds is still in mid-career, and no one knows where he will eventually rate. This rating (16th all time) is based on the assumption that his career ends with the 1999 season. Bonds' career OBP and SLG are about the same as Musial's. Bonds is as fine a defensive left fielder as anyone; if he was any better he would have been a center fielder.

Barry Bonds will almost certainly claim the position of the game's greatest power/speed combination, and probably will hold that spot for many years. He will probably break the record for career walks drawn, Babe Ruth's record now. He may well beak the record for runs scored, Ty Cobb's record now, with Rickey Henderson also in line to intercept that one. Unlike Henderson, he drives in almost as many as he scores. He will break the career record for intentional walks. When people begin to take in all his accomplishments, Bonds may well be rated among the five greatest players in the history of the game.


That was written based on what Barry accomplished through his 1999 season.

[LouGehrig]

So, your definition of 'freedom-loving' includes cheating by taking growth and/or performance-enhancing drugs?

To use the nom-de-plume of Lou Gehrig, and defend a scum like Bonds is not only an insult to Gehrig, but to all true baseball fans.

To parafrase: Better records through chemistry

Bob

The above is an insult to Mr. Gehrig and to every individual who admires the U.S. Consitution and Bill of Rights. You see, this thread is NOT about Barry Bonds. It is about those accused of crimes being innocent until proved otherwise by accusers.

Can you, or anyone, imagine Lou Gehrig opposing the above statement. The deletion of your statement is accepted.

[bluezebra]

QUOTE=rwolfe09]I believe Rose never did anything illegal and that he should be in the HOF for his baseball stats and records only.

And about Bonds. I know he did some sort of performance enhancing drug. But that wont kill my excitement on him bearing down on the record. Steroids or not, 733 HRs (and counting) hit in a career is pretty good. Now, if he admits to knowingly doing the steroids then he's done. But if it so well happened to be like what happened with Sheffield where he "unknowingly" did the 'roids then it will fade out of the spotlight. Practically no one talks about Sheffield and steroids anymore.[/QUOTE]

I believe Rose never did anything illegal and that he should be in the HOF for his baseball stats and records only.

And what are you smoking?

Bob

[jwkfs]

Thank you for putting it in its proper perspective. people are beating a dead horse.
In this country, there is such a thing as a man is presumed innocent of any charges until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Circumstantial evidence and accusations by others are not proof of guilt.



You see, this thread is NOT about Barry Bonds. It is about those accused of crimes being innocent until proved otherwise by accusers.


People keep saying this, and it's fine, but let me say this: Barry is not being tried in a court of law.

There is no such requirement of "presumption of innocence" in the court of public opinion. Baseball fans are the reason Barry has made however many millions, and baseball fans have the right to be outraged if we sense that we have been cheated.

The fact is that Barry has given baseball fans no reason to like him, let alone reason to give him the benefit of the doubt about his 'alleged' steriod usage.

[ESPNFan]

Buster can be naive. There's undetectable amphetamines out there. The Amphetamines testing is a joke. HiddenGem has specifically said there are still players on 40 man rosters using these drugs because the first offense is a joke.

But hey, if you want to believe players are resorting to crap like red bull and starbucks coffee, instead of taking the undetectable amphetamines, go right ahead.

You used to walk by every locker and be able to see vials of stuff," says Braves third baseman Chipper Jones, one of the more strident critics of amphetamine use. "That's not the case anymore. I think the testing policy has achieved what it set out to and is cleaning up the sport."


Many stimulants are legally available over the counter. Energy bars, weight-loss and diet pills, drinks like Red Bull, Full Throttle and Jolt Cola, protein bars, caffeine pills and that old standby -- a good, strong cup of java or three -- have replaced greenies in a lot of players' pregame routines.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/08/25/amph.friday/index.html

Read it and weep.

From the same article that mentioned undetectable amphetamines which has become your new rally cry. You repeat what HG tells you if it suits your arguments but why don't you mention the fact that he had never seen or heard of undetectable amphetamines. Or that guys were going to GNC to get their stimulant of choice.

When did I say Aaron cheated ?

The only person who looks like a fool is you. Find me one post of mine where I specifically said Aaron is a cheater.

How many former nicks of yours am I confined to? :D

[Skin & Bones]

From the same article that mentioned undetectable amphetamines which has become your new rally cry. You repeat what HG tells you if it suits your arguments but why don't you mention the fact that he had never seen or heard of undetectable amphetamines. Or that guys were going to GNC to get their stimulant of choice.

In the same article...


Whether those shots of caffeine actually replace or mimic the effects of a greenie is up for debate.

"I hear it's not the same. I've never taken a greenie, personally," Zito says. "But I know there are Mexican diet pills, and the way I heard the diet pills affect you, it gets you jittery and amped up and stuff. I've never had that effect with a cup of coffee."



Also...

Wadler warns that players who charge up on coffee and other caffeinated products actually might be accomplishing the opposite of what they're after.

"There's increasing evidence that increased amounts of caffeine actually impair performance," he said.

But heck, I'm sure there are players who " fear ' the weak testing policy they have for the drug, and are turning to alternatives. The same is with steroids. These " alternatives " however, provide nowhere near the benefits the illegal drugs do.

I also find it funny how you are criticizing me for harping on undectable amphetamines, and the weak testing policy, when your always going from thread to thread " correcting " anyone who may give MLB'S steroid testing policy a little bit of credit. Heck, look at your thread history, it's filled with threads started about MLB'S " weak " steroid testing policy. Or let's take a look at how you respond to every single one of my posts regarding the PED issue in baseball. Why don't you respond to anything else ?

Is drug cheating all you know about ESPNFan ?

And the funny thing is, HG ( who I know you PM'ed, BTW ) clearly debunked the common misconception that the steroid testing is weak, while pointing out that the amphetamines testing is what's weak.

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of what you want to believe.

[ESPNFan]

From the same article that mentioned undetectable amphetamines which has become your new rally cry. You repeat what HG tells you if it suits your arguments but why don't you mention the fact that he had never seen or heard of undetectable amphetamines. Or that guys were going to GNC to get their stimulant of choice.

In the same article...






Also...



But heck, I'm sure there are players who " fear ' the weak testing policy they have for the drug, and are turning to alternatives. The same is with steroids. These " alternatives " however, provide nowhere near the benefits the illegal drugs do.

I also find it funny how you are criticizing me for harping on undectable amphetamines, and the weak testing policy, when your always going from thread to thread " correcting " anyone who may give MLB'S steroid testing policy a little bit of credit. Heck, look at your thread history, it's filled with threads started about MLB'S " weak " steroid testing policy. Or let's take a look at how you respond to every single one of my posts regarding the PED issue in baseball. Why don't you respond to anything else ?

Is drug cheating all you know about ESPNFan ?

And the funny thing is, HG ( who I know you PM'ed, BTW ) clearly debunked the common misconception that the steroid testing is weak, while pointing out that the amphetamines testing is what's weak.

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of what you want to believe.

I'm a realist. I deal in fact. MLB's drug policy is weak in my opinion and can be much better. Baseball had a obvious drug problem and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to a decent PED policy. The NFL retested all its samples when THG was discoverd. I wonder what the MLB would find it it followed suit? The NFL and the players union are right now trying to come up with an answer on HGH. What is MLB doing? Next to nothing. Is the NFL perfect? Absolutelty not. But they are at least trying to address problem and get it right. In my perfect world WADA tests everyone like the olympics and 2 year bans are the standard first offence.

I talk about things I know. I know much more than drugs in relations to sports but alot of that can't be reproduced here.

You in every one of your incarnations wants to paint the issue with only half the facts for what ever reason. Sorry if I ruin your fun.

[Skin & Bones]

I deal in fact. MLB's drug policy is weak in my opinion and can be much better. Baseball had a obvious drug problem and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to a decent PED policy. The NFL retested all its samples when THG was discoverd. I wonder what the MLB would find it it followed suit? The NFL and the players union are right now trying to come up with an answer on HGH. What is MLB doing? Next to nothing. Is the NFL perfect? Absolutelty not. But they are at least trying to address problem and get it right. In my perfect world WADA tests everyone like the olympics and 2 year bans are the standard first offence.


Fair enough, and the same is and should be said about Amphetamines. Whether or not you want to admit they are performance enhancing drugs ( they clearly are, BTW).

I have heard however, from certain people on bodybuilding forums, who have actually said designer steroids like THG aren't as good as standard gear, and HGH, well, we already know it's basically used for healing.

Is MLB'S testing policy perfect ? Hell no, but atleast a legit one's in place. Prior to 2003, there was nothing, nada zippo. A drug testing policy for PED'S should of been implemented many many years ago, well before the Canseco ERA.


I do however agree, that WADA should test everyone like the olympics, and the first penalty should be a two year ban.


You in every one of your incarnations wants to paint the issue with only half the facts for what ever reason. Sorry if I ruin your fun.

This really doesn't make sense, and shows me nothing but your immature side. You aren't ruining anyone's fun champ, nobody on a internet baseball board would take you that seriously.

[ESPNFan]

Fair enough, and the same is and should be said about Amphetamines. Whether or not you want to admit they are performance enhancing drugs ( they clearly are, BTW).

I have said that they can enhance performance as well. My contention has been however that the way they work prevents them from being used by everyone, and the way they effect the central nervous system actually degrades performance with repeated and increased use, quickly negating benefits. I can go on if you like....

I have heard however, from certain people on bodybuilding forums, who have actually said designer steroids like THG aren't as good as standard gear, and HGH, well, we already know it's basically used for healing.

Body building fourms? In Will Carrols Book "the Juice" he interviews the alledged creator of THG. His coments about body building forums: Page 162 paragraph 3: "I check out some of the (internet) boards, mostly for laughs"
Dr. Charles Yesalis is a someone who's research I recomend checking their claims with.

BTW Who cares what the difference in gear is? THG might not be as effective as other known detectable substances. Thats not the difference that matters. the difference thats important is between THG and playing clean.

Same with HGH and IGF-1, they might not make someone as huge as Deca but you cant detect them and they most certainly do something more than just heal based on current documented medical use and diseases. And MLB's smokescreen


Is MLB'S testing policy perfect ? Hell no, but atleast a legit one's in place. Prior to 2003, there was nothing, nada zippo. A drug testing policy for PED'S should of been implemented many many years ago, well before the Canseco ERA.

I do however agree, that WADA should test everyone like the olympics, and the first penalty should be a two year ban.

There was the memo, which we know was basicly just an attempt to take a position on the subject without taking on the players union. They had suspicions about Jose back then. The problem for Vincent was the players union was still fighting them on Coke for Pete's sake. Once Selig came in nothing that made money for the owners was going to be challanged and HRs sold tickets.

I'm glad we found something that we can finally agree on however.


This really doesn't make sense, and shows me nothing but your immature side. You aren't ruining anyone's fun champ, nobody on a internet baseball board would take you that seriously.

I'll let the people here read what I have to say and let them decide what to take seriously.

[Skin & Bones]

I have said that they can enhance performance as well. My contention has been however that the way they work prevents them from being used by everyone, and the way they effect the central nervous system actually degrades performance with repeated and increased use, quickly negating benefits. I can go on if you like....

I agree to a certain extent, yes, though there have been athletes who've used them for years without experiencing any negative side-effects. The same with steroids. Experts have said for steroids it's negative side-effects outweight it's benefits. Is there any truth to it ? Sure, to a certain extent.



Body building fourms? In Will Carrols Book "the Juice" he interviews the alledged creator of THG. His coments about body building forums: Page 162 paragraph 3: "I check out some of the (internet) boards, mostly for laughs"
Dr. Charles Yesalis is a someone who's research I recomend checking their claims with.

I wouldn't be so quick to put them down right away. I agree that there is fools that go on there, babbling nonsense, but to completely dismiss anyone there is ridiculous.

Just in case you were interested...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=788273&highlight=THG

And another interesting one on someone commenting on Carrol's " book ".
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=594639&highlight=THG



BTW Who cares what the difference in gear is? THG might not be as effective as other known detectable substances. Thats not the difference that matters. the difference thats important is between THG and playing clean.

Agreed, though " playing clean " can be debated in many different ways.



Same with HGH and IGF-1, they might not make someone as huge as Deca but you cant detect them and they most certainly do something more than just heal based on current documented medical use and diseases. And MLB's smokescreen

It's basically coupled with steroids to prevent injuries to growing ligaments. Without the stuff, it's not anything special.


There was the memo, which we know was basicly just an attempt to take a position on the subject without taking on the players union. They had suspicions about Jose back then. The problem for Vincent was the players union was still fighting them on Coke for Pete's sake. Once Selig came in nothing that made money for the owners was going to be challanged and HRs sold tickets.

Agreed. I remember redsox fans chanting steroids to Jose back in the day. I do however believe, baseball's PED problem started well before the Canseco era. Proof ? Not much, sans amphetamines and Tom House's confession, but something I believe nonetheless.

[west coast orange and black]

Hammerin Hank: WCOAB: I think you are Barry Bonds.... and you're not.