Rank these players

[Sockeye]

Imagine for a minute it is 20 years from now in the year 2026. Rank the following 35 players in terms of the legacy and impact left on the game. From #1 (the biggest impact/legacy left on the game. Talked about as one of the greats to ever play the game) to #35 (a good player, but by no means considered one of the all time legends)

Jeff Bagwell
Carlos Beltran
Adrian Beltre
Lance Berkman
Barry Bonds
Miguel Cabrera
Eric Chavez
Carlos Delgado
Adam Dunn
Jim Edmonds
Jason Giambi
Troy Glaus
Shawn Green
Ken Griffey Jr
Vladimir Guerrero
Todd Helton
Andruw Jones
Chipper Jones
Paul Konerko
Carlos Lee
Derrek Lee
David Ortiz
Mike Piazza
Albert Pujols
Aramis Ramirez
Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez
Scott Rolen
Richie Sexson
Gary Sheffield
Alfonso Soriano
Mark Teixeira
Miguel Tejada
Frank Thomas
Jim Thome

[W_Marone]

1.Bonds
2-35. The rest (get to that later)

[soberdennis]

Imagine for a minute it is 20 years from now in the year 2026. Rank the following 35 players in terms of the legacy and impact left on the game. From #1 (the biggest impact/legacy left on the game. Talked about as one of the greats to ever play the game) to #35 (a good player, but by no means considered one of the all time legends)

Jeff Bagwell-5
Carlos Beltran-22
Adrian Beltre-26
Lance Berkman-27
Barry Bonds-1
Miguel Cabrera-34
Eric Chavez-35
Carlos Delgado-20
Adam Dunn-33
Jim Edmonds-13
Jason Giambi-19
Troy Glaus-23
Shawn Green-17
Ken Griffey Jr-12
Vladimir Guerrero-7
Todd Helton-6
Andruw Jones-11
Chipper Jones-18
Paul Konerko-21
Carlos Lee-31
Derrek Lee-25
David Ortiz-15
Mike Piazza-8
Albert Pujols-4
Aramis Ramirez
Manny Ramirez-9
Alex Rodriguez=2
Scott Rolen-30
Richie Sexson-29
Gary Sheffield-14
Alfonso Soriano-28
Mark Teixeira-24
Miguel Tejada-16
Frank Thomas-3
Jim Thome-10
I must admit that after a while I almost made my picks randomly. After 1-10, it gets harder

[Astro]

Does this really belong in the Current Events section?

[Sockeye]

This is not an easy task but after a great deal of thought here is my list.

Albert Pujols-1
Alex Rodriguez-2
Barry Bonds-3
Vladimir Guerrero-4
Miguel Cabrera-5
Manny Ramirez-6
Ken Griffey Jr-7
Andruw Jones-8
Frank Thomas-9
Mike Piazza-10
Lance Berkman-11
Jeff Bagwell-12
Mark Teixeira-13
Chipper Jones-14
Miguel Tejada-15
Alfonso Soriano-16
Todd Helton-17
Gary Sheffield-18
Jim Thome-19
Scott Rolen-20
Jim Edmonds-21
David Ortiz-22
Troy Glaus-23
Jason Giambi-24
Carlos Delgado-25
Carlos Beltran-26
Adam Dunn-27
Paul Konerko-28
Carlos Lee-29
Derrek Lee-30
Aramis Ramirez-31
Eric Chavez-32
Richie Sexson-33
Shawn Green-34
Adrian Beltre-35

[Sockeye]

Does this really belong in the Current Events section?

Seems like as good a place as any since all 35 players are "currently" active

[leecemark]

Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr
Mike Piazza
Albert Pujols
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Manny Ramirez
Vladimir Guerrero
Miguel Cabrera
Andruw Jones
Chipper Jones
David Ortiz
Jim Thome
Carlos Beltran
Eric Chavez
Carlos Delgado
Jim Edmonds
Todd Helton
Miguel Tejada
Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
Scott Rolen
Aramis Ramirez
Adam Dunn
Richie Sexson
Lance Berkman
Alfonso Soriano
Derrek Lee
Adrian Beltre
Mark Teixeira
Troy Glaus
Shawn Green
Paul Konerko
Carlos Lee

[EvanAparra]

This is not an easy task but after a great deal of thought here is my list.

Albert Pujols-1
Alex Rodriguez-2
Barry Bonds-3
Vladimir Guerrero-4
Miguel Cabrera-5
Manny Ramirez-6
Ken Griffey Jr-7
Andruw Jones-8
Frank Thomas-9
Mike Piazza-10
Lance Berkman-11
Jeff Bagwell-12
Mark Teixeira-13
Chipper Jones-14
Miguel Tejada-15
Alfonso Soriano-16
Todd Helton-17
Gary Sheffield-18
Jim Thome-19
Scott Rolen-20
Jim Edmonds-21
David Ortiz-22
Troy Glaus-23
Jason Giambi-24
Carlos Delgado-25
Carlos Beltran-26
Adam Dunn-27
Paul Konerko-28
Carlos Lee-29
Derrek Lee-30
Aramis Ramirez-31
Eric Chavez-32
Richie Sexson-33
Shawn Green-34
Adrian Beltre-35

Troy Glaus above Beltran?... nitpicky i know, just wonderin' why..

[Sockeye]

Troy Glaus above Beltran?... nitpicky i know, just wonderin' why..

close, More career home runs, more difficult positition. If you can do better please feel free do do so.

[EvanAparra]

How did i know you were going to say that. I was just asking a question. Wasnt trying to act like i could do better. Plus, i just did an all-time hitter ranking today, im pretty tired from that.

[ChrisLDuncan]

If A-Rod turns it around in the post season, it's going to be him and everybody else. Dude can play he may end up with the most career hits, HRs, and RBIs. Which is insane when you come to think about it. ALso doing most of this as a left infielder too. Bonds 2, Pujols 3, Griffery Jr 4, Miggy 5, Aundrew Jones 6 ( the baseball tonight crew says he can be better than Mays), Manny 7, Jeter 8 (the guy you forgot; pure class and selflessness the current face of MLB. When people say athletes aren't role models, they forget about Jeter. Not too mention a legend around teh ladies), Papi 9 (chage the way we think of DHs), Soriano 10 (That power with that speed is insane), The Big Hurt 11 (in 1994 he was on pace to break the single season HR record), and after that I really can't decide.

[Sockeye]

Anybody else care to rank these players?

[Blackout]

no derek jeter?


anyways

1-alex rodriguez
2-albert pujols
3-vlad guerrero
4-manny ramirez
5-everyone else can fight it out

[Sockeye]

no derek jeter?


anyways

1-alex rodriguez
2-albert pujols
3-vlad guerrero
4-manny ramirez
5-everyone else can fight it out

Only power hitters

[The Toy Cannon]

1.Barry Bonds
2.Albert Pujols
3.Alex Rodriguez
4.Ken Griffey Jr
5.Jeff Bagwell
6.Frank Thomas
7.Manny Ramirez
8.Jim Thome
9.Lance Berkman
10.Mike Piazza
11.Miguel Cabrera
12.Vladimir Guerrero
13.Todd Helton
14.Carlos Beltran
15.Jim Edmonds
16.David Ortiz
17.Scott Rolen
18.Andruw Jones
19.Chipper Jones
20.Gary Sheffield
21.Jason Giambi
22.Carlos Delgado
23.Mark Teixeira
24.Adam Dunn
25.Miguel Tejada
26.Alfonso Soriano
27.Derrek Lee
28.Paul Konerko
29.Richie Sexson
30.Troy Glaus
31.Eric Chavez
32.Shawn Green
33.Aramis Ramirez
34.Adrian Beltre
35.Carlos Lee

[mac195]

1.Barry Bonds
2.Alex Rodriguez
3.Albert Pujols
4.Ken Griffey Jr
5.Frank Thomas
6.Manny Ramirez
7.Jeff Bagwell
8.Mike Piazza
9.Miguel Cabrera (way too soon to know but maybe...)
10.Vladimir Guerrero
11.David Ortiz (legacy as "Big Pappi", probably not this high in terms of career quality)
12..Jim Thome
13.Miguel Tejada
14.Scott Rolen
15.Gary Sheffield
16.Chipper Jones
17.Andruw Jones
( in the HOF by 2026, except maybe Cabrera and Ortiz)
---------------------

18.Carlos Beltran
19.Jim Edmonds
20.Lance Berkman
21.Alfonso Soriano
22.Todd Helton
23.Jason Giambi
24.Carlos Delgado
25.Mark Teixeira
26.Eric Chavez
27.Troy Glaus
28.Derrek Lee
29.Adam Dunn
30.Shawn Green
31.Paul Konerko
32.Richie Sexson
33.Adrian Beltre
34.Aramis Ramirez
35.Carlos Lee

[Yankee Legend]

In 2006:

Jeff Bagwell-35 Did he even play this year?
Carlos Beltran-4
Adrian Beltre-20
Lance Berkman-12
Barry Bonds-24
Miguel Cabrera-2 Great all-around player. Is a shinig star and hitting in an inexperienced lineup. Ironically enough the Marlins have a 23 yr old veteran.
Eric Chavez-21
Carlos Delgado-9
Adam Dunn-23 He can hit homeruns. And thats it.
Jim Edmonds-31
Jason Giambi-18
Troy Glaus-19
Shawn Green-34
Ken Griffey Jr-30
Vladimir Guerrero-8
Todd Helton-25 Major hitters park advantage.
Andruw Jones-13 Defense makes up for lack of AVG.
Chipper Jones-26
Paul Konerko-16
Carlos Lee-22
Derrek Lee-27 Although injured most of season.
David Ortiz-5 DH factor brought him down.
Mike Piazza-33
Albert Pujols-1 Still the best today.
Aramis Ramirez-29
Manny Ramirez-7
Alex Rodriguez-6 Having an off year
Scott Rolen-14
Richie Sexson-28
Gary Sheffield-32 Same as D Lee.
Alfonso Soriano-3 40-40-40 Cant argue with that. Doing well in totally new postion. Pitchers park, weak lineup.
Mark Teixeira-17
Miguel Tejada-11
Frank Thomas-15
Jim Thome-10

I'll do other rankings later.

[Yankee Legend]

Imagine for a minute it is 20 years from now in the year 2026. Rank the following 35 players in terms of the legacy and impact left on the game. From #1 (the biggest impact/legacy left on the game. Talked about as one of the greats to ever play the game) to #35 (a good player, but by no means considered one of the all time legends)

I should read the thread first before I post something. I'll a new ranking later on.

[antihipster]

1.Barry Bonds
2. Albert Pujols
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Ken Griffey Jr
5. Frank Thomas
6. Jeff Bagwell
7. Manny Ramirez
8. Jim Thome
9. Gary Sheffield
10. Mike Piazza

[leecemark]

--I don't get Piazza being so far down these lists. He is the best hitter ever to play his position and it isn't really close. That is a career that is going to appreciate with time, even if he doesn't get quite the recognition he deserves now.

[The Toy Cannon]

He's in all of our top tens. He's the best hitter at his position, but one of the worst catchers ever to have a long career at the position(perhaps the worst, even?), so that title isn't as significant as it might sound.

[leecemark]

--Top 10 from a group of 35 active guys, who aren't even the 35 best active guys is not enough credit for Piazza IMO. Hornsby is the worst defensive 2B to have a long career at the position. Is that what people think of first when the Rajah comes up in conversation? Piazza's offensive advantage over other catchers is bigger than Hornsby's over other secondbasemen.

[The Toy Cannon]

Two things:

1.While it may be a list of 35 active players, all the players I have ranked ahead of Piazza(and Piazza too, of course) I anticipate will make or be deserving of making the Hall of Fame, and the first three I believe will be among the 15 or 20 greatest players in MLB history when their careers are through.

2.Hornsby was not a great defensive second baseman, but he was not terrible, either. He was about average. Bill James credits him as being worthy of a couple of win share Gold Gloves. Piazza, on the other hand, is probably the worst defensive catcher of his generation, if not any generation(for someone who received regular time there, at least). Obviously, that shouldn't be the first thing that comes to mind when Piazza is mentioned. I just think it's necessary to qualify the statement "best hitter ever at his position".

[leecemark]

--James also list Hornsby as the worst 2B to play 1,000 games at the position. Piazza is actually a solid defensive catcher, except for a (significant) weakness in throwing out basetealers.

[Sockeye]

Anyone else care to take 5 minutes and rank these players? Would like to get a few more complete lists.

[Senor Octobre]

I'll rank 20 off the top of my head

1. Barry Bonds
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Albert Pujols
4. Ken Griffey, Jr.
5. Frank Thomas
6. Jeff Bagwell
7. Mike Piazza
8. Manny Ramirez
9. Vladimir Guerrero
10. Gary Sheffield
11. Andruw Jones
12. Jim Thome
13. Miguel Tejada
14. Chipper Jones
15. Carlos Delgado
16. Scott Rolen
17. David Ortiz
18. Todd Helton
19. Jim Edmonds
20. Shawn Green

Miguel Cabrera will probably be in the mix eventually but he hasn't even played 5 years yet so i'm not ranking him yet

[538280]

This is just how I think I'll rate them. I honestly don't care about "legacy" or anything like that. David Ortiz will probably leave the game with a lasting "legacy". This really has little to do with his true ability as a player.

1.Barry Bonds
2.Alex Rodriguez
3.Albert Pujols
4.Frank Thomas
5.Jeff Bagwell
6.Mike Piazza (I'm also surprised at how low people are putting him. I mean..do you honestly think Jim Thome is better than Piazza??? Two people have put him ahead.)
7.Ken Griffey Jr.
8.Gary Sheffield
9.Manny Ramirez
10.Vladimir Guerrero
11.Miguel Cabrera
12.Jim Thome
13.Lance Berkman
14.Scott Rolen
15.Carlos Beltran

That's as far as I'm going now.

[EvanAparra]

Jim Thomas?

[538280]

Jim Thomas?

That was a typo, it's fixed now.

[Sockeye]

need a few more "complete" rankings

[Sockeye]

Please no partial lists please. I need complete rankings
:confused:

[Sockeye]

still need a couple more. Who is capable of ranking all 35 players? who will it be

[mac195]

Are you trying to figure out whoose baseball cards to invest in?

[The Toy Cannon]

I mean..do you honestly think Jim Thome is better than Piazza??? Two people have put him ahead.

Thome has a pretty good shot at getting into the top 10 on the all time homerun list. In my view, that will give him the greater "legacy".

As for who the better player was...well, Thome may have a year or two left as an elite hitter. That would makeup a good bit of the difference, in my estimation.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

There are several players in this era, that when they are finished, could end up in the top 10 or 15 on the all-time HR list. That speaks volumes about how cheap the HR has become, almost like we need two lists. Right now we have Bonds second, Sosa fifth, Palmeiro ninth and Griffey twelfth...Bagwell, Sheffield, Thomas, and Delgado could end up in the early twenties...Manny, Arod, Thome all pretty good bets to get in the top ten...Piazza could get in the mid twenties providing he finished up DHing or playing first....and wait til Pujols, Cabrera, Andruw, Dunn, and whoever else finishes up. Hell, Frank Robinson could wind up looking up at the top 15 when the smoke clears.

[Sockeye]

Are you trying to figure out whoose baseball cards to invest in?

I thought I recognized you from Beckett. You're good!

[redban]

Barry Bonds
Albert Pujols
Miguel Cabrera
Alex Rodriguez(Yes,4th.I have a feeling that he will really fall off and he won't break all those records everyone thinks he will)
Manny Ramirez
Mike Piazza
Ken Griffey Jr
Vladimir Guerrero
Jim Thome
Andruw Jones
Jeff Bagwell
Chipper Jones
Frank Thomas
Todd Helton
Adam Dunn
Lance Berkman
Alfonso Soriano
Carlos Delgado
Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
David Ortiz
Scott Rolen
Jim Edmonds
Troy Glaus
Miguel Tejada
Mark Teixeira
Eric Chavez
Carlos Beltran
Paul Konerko
Richie Sexson
Aramis Ramirez
Derrek Lee
Carlos Lee
Shawn Green
Adrian Beltre

[redban]

I think some people have Frank Thomas too high.

Yes,I know he's put up good numbers and whatever,but the fact is...the casual fan does not know this.The thread is asking for ranking of the player's legacy and impact in 20 years.

So how is Frank gonna be remembered more than Mike Piazza or Manny Ramirez ???

Everyone who follows the game avidly knows Frank Thomas is great.But the average,casual fan thinks of him as a Jason Giambi caliber guy.When he hits 500 homeruns next year,and it's shown all over Sportscenter,85% of America will be shocked as hell and start wondering how he hit that many.That's just the way it is.

Frank Thomas,IMO should not be in anyone's top 10.

[Hammerin Hank]

Redban, how old are you?

[redban]

Redban, how old are you?

16....going on 17 in a few months

[Hammerin Hank]

16....going on 17 in a few months

That would explain your thoughts on Frank Thomas then.

[redban]

That would explain your thoughts on Frank Thomas then.

How so?

The man did put up good numbers,in a Rafael Palmerio way.

[Hammerin Hank]

How so?

The man did put up good numbers,in a Rafael Palmerio way.

The man put up some of the best numbers in the 90's. In a Frank Thomas sort of way.

[redban]

The man put up some of the best numbers in the 90's. In a Frank Thomas sort of way.

No,in a PALMERIO type of way.Meaning he was under the radar.

No-body gave him much attention at all.The avid fans did,but not the casual.

[Hammerin Hank]

Frank Thomas was a five-time all-star and won back-to-back MVPs. How under the radar is that?

[skyking162]

I think people generally overrate current performance and media-hype when addressing these sorts of questions. The names at the bottom of the list will generally disappear to younger fans in 10-15 years, just like I don't know many of the good, but not great, players of the '70s. Regarding Frank Thomas, I think his legacy will improve among the current generation once he retires as the media will give him the "retiring legend" treatment and the Hall of Fame debate (there shouldn't be one) ensues.

There are probably other players currently suffering from this Frank Thomas effect -- great players that are currently hurt by being in the downward portion of their career (Edmonds, Sheffield, Bagwell)?

I'm going to assume that the mainstream understanding of baseball will shift somewhat towards the performance analysis perspective. I'm sure there'll still be lots of debate, but many "sabrmetric" perspectives have caught on even over the past ten years -- the importance of OBP for example -- and I don't see a reason for the slow shift not to continue.

Obvious HOF in 2026
Barry Bonds -- i'd give him the best player ever, not adjusting for steroids
Alex Rodriguez -- could be top 10 ever
Albert Pujols -- behind ARod because of position and the chance that he can't continue for five more years just to match ARod's performance so far
Mike Piazza -- best catcher ever
Frank Thomas -- one of the best hitters ever
Manny Ramirez -- the phrase Manny being Manny should be a huge compliment
Ken Griffey Jr -- career fell off a cliff, and career .377 OBP is .14 points lower than:
Vladimir Guerrero -- bonus legacy points for uniqueness
Jeff Bagwell -- take a look at his peak numbers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bagweje01.shtml), wow

HOF Discussion
Chipper Jones
Gary Sheffield
Scott Rolen
Miguel Tejada

Incomplete
Miguel Cabrera -- so young that it's hard to judge how his career will progress; certainly capable of being in the HOF; what about Wright and other young sluggers?

Great Careers, But Not HOF
Andruw Jones -- will people figure out that he's been a mediocre fielder for a couple years now?
Jim Edmonds
Carlos Beltran -- has potential and years left to bump himself up a category
Alfonso Soriano -- i've place him halfway between where his actual ability and hype would put him
Todd Helton -- good player made great by Coors; what would these following hitters have done in Coors?
Mark Teixeira -- this year will turn out to be the exception in a great career
David Ortiz -- bonus legacy points for clutchiness and Sox 2004 WS; won't have long career
Carlos Delgado -- peak isn't spectacular, but just keep rolling along
Lance Berkman -- can he have a long career?

Not Big Enough or Long Enough
Jason Giambi -- bumping his steroid years down to 2006 levels; although, does steroid talk equate to legacy?
Adam Dunn -- should amass a large career HR total
Derrek Lee -- he's 31 with only one great season
Shawn Green -- he'll get a Jewish bump if we're talking "legacy"
Troy Glaus -- his name should be around

Likely To Be Forgotten
Eric Chavez -- could be lower if he continues to disappoint, but could also be a lot higher with a few potential-fulfilling years
Paul Konerko -- we're getting into the complete oblivion section of the list
Aramis Ramirez
Adrian Beltre -- that one season will put him in various fluke discussions
Richie Sexson
Carlos Lee


My favorite game to play with discussion like this is to look back at leaderboards from just five years ago and see exactly how many of the "studs" had short peaks and are now gone. Sustained greatness is a lot hard than it looks.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Piazza best catcher ever? I dunno about that I thinK Bench, Berra, Josh Gibson, Campanella, and I-Rod were better than he was. Piazza could hit, but so could Bench, Berra, and Gibson. Plus a catcher's D is what matters the most no one was better than I-Rod. That and I-Rod's a leader and took his team to a WS title. However Piazza is underrated and a VERY good player.

[mac195]

I thought I recognized you from Beckett. You're good!
Nope, I don't post there. Thought at first you were talking about this gentleman...

[Skin & Bones]

Piazza best catcher ever? I dunno about that I thinK Bench, Berra, Josh Gibson, Campanella, and I-Rod were better than he was. Piazza could hit, but so could Bench, Berra, and Gibson. Plus a catcher's D is what matters the most no one was better than I-Rod. That and I-Rod's a leader and took his team to a WS title. However Piazza is underrated and a VERY good player.

He probably meant offensively.

[ChrisLDuncan]

He probably meant offensively.
Well it's obvious he's the best offensive catcher of all time.

[Skin & Bones]

Well it's obvious he's the best offensive catcher of all time.

Yep, and I can't see how Irod ranks ahead of him. Yes, Irod was better defensively, hell, MUCH better. But Piazza's FAR superior offense puts him well ahead of Pudge, IMO.

I also can't say if Gibson for a fact is better than Mike Piazza.

[STLCards2]

Frank Thomas was a five-time all-star and won back-to-back MVPs. How under the radar is that?

During the mid-90's when thomas was in his peak, there were many debates about who the best player in the Al was: Griffey or Thomas. Thomas was certainly not under the radar. I recall several reporters asking if Thomas was the greatest right-handed hitter in MLB history. The White Sox (who were pretty good in the early 90's) fell off the planet during the second half of the decade, and Thomas had a stretch of incomplete seasons. He was either injured a lot, had high Avg / lower than normal (for Thomas) HR totals, or high HR totals/lower than normal Avg. The perception of Thomas as an elite hitter vanished suprisingly quickly, and even a monster season like 2000 (or was it 2001?) did little to put Thomas back into the major spotlight. In fact, it was viewed by many as being an anomoly. The fact that he followed that year with a stretch of injured seasons didn't help. In a matter of a couple of years, Thomas went from "maybe the greatest RH hitter in baseball history," to "borderline HOFer." However, Thomas was a major star in the early to mid 90's.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yep, and I can't see how Irod ranks ahead of him. Yes, Irod was better defensively, hell, MUCH better. But Piazza's FAR superior offense puts him well ahead of Pudge, IMO.

I also can't say if Gibson for a fact is better than Mike Piazza.


If you haven't seen the horrible Ty Cobb (Although Bill Burgess makes some good points and somewhat saves it) debate that my All Time list has degenerated into, you wouldn't know that I place high values on intangibles. As for a catcher I think defense is the most important thing. Ivan Rodriguez has had some decent years at the plate aswell. Plus Ivan was a leader as I mentioned, that's why he gets the nod over Piazza, but the margin is slim and I mean SLIM.

[cup2006sensrule]

No,in a PALMERIO type of way.Meaning he was under the radar.

No-body gave him much attention at all.The avid fans did,but not the casual.

That isn't true at all. He may not have got the Bonds and Griffey hype but he was not like Fred McGriff or Palmerio in terms of recognition. And he was regarded as one of the top 2 or 3 hitters in baseball for over 10 years. Basically he was regarded by many as the best player in baseball in the 90's that wasn't named Bonds or Griffey. He was not under the Radar - Heck he won 2 MVPs and was in the top 3 3 other times.

[Sockeye]

I think people generally overrate current performance and media-hype when addressing these sorts of questions. The names at the bottom of the list will generally disappear to younger fans in 10-15 years, just like I don't know many of the good, but not great, players of the '70s. Regarding Frank Thomas, I think his legacy will improve among the current generation once he retires as the media will give him the "retiring legend" treatment and the Hall of Fame debate (there shouldn't be one) ensues.

There are probably other players currently suffering from this Frank Thomas effect -- great players that are currently hurt by being in the downward portion of their career (Edmonds, Sheffield, Bagwell)?

I'm going to assume that the mainstream understanding of baseball will shift somewhat towards the performance analysis perspective. I'm sure there'll still be lots of debate, but many "sabrmetric" perspectives have caught on even over the past ten years -- the importance of OBP for example -- and I don't see a reason for the slow shift not to continue.

Obvious HOF in 2026
Barry Bonds -- i'd give him the best player ever, not adjusting for steroids
Alex Rodriguez -- could be top 10 ever
Albert Pujols -- behind ARod because of position and the chance that he can't continue for five more years just to match ARod's performance so far
Mike Piazza -- best catcher ever
Frank Thomas -- one of the best hitters ever
Manny Ramirez -- the phrase Manny being Manny should be a huge compliment
Ken Griffey Jr -- career fell off a cliff, and career .377 OBP is .14 points lower than:
Vladimir Guerrero -- bonus legacy points for uniqueness
Jeff Bagwell -- take a look at his peak numbers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bagweje01.shtml), wow

HOF Discussion
Chipper Jones
Gary Sheffield
Scott Rolen
Miguel Tejada

Incomplete
Miguel Cabrera -- so young that it's hard to judge how his career will progress; certainly capable of being in the HOF; what about Wright and other young sluggers?

Great Careers, But Not HOF
Andruw Jones -- will people figure out that he's been a mediocre fielder for a couple years now?
Jim Edmonds
Carlos Beltran -- has potential and years left to bump himself up a category
Alfonso Soriano -- i've place him halfway between where his actual ability and hype would put him
Todd Helton -- good player made great by Coors; what would these following hitters have done in Coors?
Mark Teixeira -- this year will turn out to be the exception in a great career
David Ortiz -- bonus legacy points for clutchiness and Sox 2004 WS; won't have long career
Carlos Delgado -- peak isn't spectacular, but just keep rolling along
Lance Berkman -- can he have a long career?

Not Big Enough or Long Enough
Jason Giambi -- bumping his steroid years down to 2006 levels; although, does steroid talk equate to legacy?
Adam Dunn -- should amass a large career HR total
Derrek Lee -- he's 31 with only one great season
Shawn Green -- he'll get a Jewish bump if we're talking "legacy"
Troy Glaus -- his name should be around

Likely To Be Forgotten
Eric Chavez -- could be lower if he continues to disappoint, but could also be a lot higher with a few potential-fulfilling years
Paul Konerko -- we're getting into the complete oblivion section of the list
Aramis Ramirez
Adrian Beltre -- that one season will put him in various fluke discussions
Richie Sexson
Carlos Lee


My favorite game to play with discussion like this is to look back at leaderboards from just five years ago and see exactly how many of the "studs" had short peaks and are now gone. Sustained greatness is a lot hard than it looks.

Where would you rank Jim Thome on this list? You seem to have left him out.

[Krylon]

1.) Bonds: Arguably the greatest player ever.
2.) Arod: If he doesn't get injured, could retire with the majority of career offensive records.
3.) Pujols: Greatest young hitter ever.
4.) Thomas: One of the best hitters ever.
5.) Bagwell: One of the best firstbasemen ever.
6.) Griffey Jr: Over rated, but still great. Should retire with over 600 career hr's.
7.) Manny Ramirez: See Frank Thomas.
8.) Piazza: Best hitting catcher ever.
9.) Vladimir Guerrero: One of the best players of his generation.
10.) Gary Sheffield: Awesome hitter. Will reach 500 hr's.

The rest of them I don't think are hofers yet. And I was too lazy to rate the rest of them.

[skyking162]

Where would you rank Jim Thome on this list? You seem to have left him out.

Huh. How about we slide him in the second group, ahead of Tejada.

[redban]

Piazza best catcher ever? I dunno about that I thinK Bench, Berra, Josh Gibson, Campanella, and I-Rod were better than he was. Piazza could hit, but so could Bench, Berra, and Gibson. Plus a catcher's D is what matters the most no one was better than I-Rod. That and I-Rod's a leader and took his team to a WS title. However Piazza is underrated and a VERY good player.

I would actually say Piazza was the best catcher ever.
By that,I mean if I could pick ANY catcher in history at their prime,I would take Piazza.

He was not bad defensively.Now he was not great,but he was good.
Sure he was a horrible thrower,but that was his only weakness defensively.And His offensive numbers more than made up for it.
It's not like his poor arm prevented any chance of his team from winning a championship,as shown in 1999 and 2000,when the Mets got close with a team that had many weak players.

[nolanryan5714]

Nice list, Sockeye. I'll have more time later to reply, and it'll give me more time to think. This one isn't easy!

I will say this, though: Albert Pujols, barring unseen difficulties, will become the greatest player of all time. Better than Ruth, Bonds (steroids or not), Aaron, etc...


Nice post.

[EvanAparra]

Nice list, Sockeye. I'll have more time later to reply, and it'll give me more time to think. This one isn't easy!

I will say this, though: Albert Pujols, barring unseen difficulties, will become the greatest player of all time. Better than Ruth, Bonds (steroids or not), Aaron, etc...


Nice post.

Its funny that all Astros fans give more credit to the man who destroys them, then most do that have no rooting interest. If you are an Astros fan, you know first hand how scary good this guy is.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I dunno I'd say that Bench and Berra were better, for sure. For catchers Johnny Bench won a couple of MVPs and a few WS titles. He was good offensively, not as good as Piazza, but he had better intangibles and a great arm. As for Berra he was the MVP of the 50's look at these totals in voting:
1949: 15th
1950: 3rd
1951: 1st
1952: 4th
1953: 2nd
1954: 1st
1955: 1st
1956: 2nd
1957: 14th

Considering he was playing with a number of great players durring that ERA those totals mean something. Also Yogi Berra as his time as a player, coach, and manager, and including WS and AS games he earned 38 rings (39 if you count the hall) the next athelete to acheive something like that was MJ with 18. Before or since Berra no other catcher has won two MVP awards. Also no player has sandwiched consecutive MVP awards with a pair of second place finishes (bear in mind that he lost the 56 MVP to Mickey Mantle whom won the Triple Crown that year and had possibly a top 10 season in the history of the game). Also between July 1957 and may 1959 Berra went 148 games w/o an error. Also Yogi would swat pitches for hits that weren't anywhere near the Kzone, there wasn't a pitch that he didn't think he could handle. To quote Bob Wolff was quoted as saying "YOgi had the distinction of hitting any ball thrown to him. He didn't look like an athelete but he was an athelete. From the very begininning, he was kidded about his looks." So I don't think he's better than Berra or Bench, the others are somewhat debateable.

[Skin & Bones]

If you haven't seen the horrible Ty Cobb (Although Bill Burgess makes some good points and somewhat saves it) debate that my All Time list has degenerated into, you wouldn't know that I place high values on intangibles. As for a catcher I think defense is the most important thing. Ivan Rodriguez has had some decent years at the plate aswell. Plus Ivan was a leader as I mentioned, that's why he gets the nod over Piazza, but the margin is slim and I mean SLIM.

I seen your Ty Cobb Posts. I agree that Cobb's generally rated way too high on these boards ( looking back at polls, fever rated him number 2 all-time) that's absolutely absurd, IMO.

That said, dropping someone far down in the rankings because of poor postseason performance is ridiculous. And not a good way to judge players.

Knocking Cobb because he played against inferior competition ? Makes sense, but because he performed poorly in the postseason ? Well then Barry Bonds shouldn't even be in your top fifty.

And I disagree that defense is more important than Offense. Would you rather have a great defensive SS like Ozzie Smith who was an average hitter, or a poor defensive LF like Ted Williams whose arguably the greatest hitter ever ?

Offense is heads and shoulders above defense in terms of importance.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I seen your Ty Cobb Posts. I agree that Cobb's generally rated way too high on these boards ( looking back at polls, fever rated him number 2 all-time) that's absolutely absurd, IMO.

That said, dropping someone far down in the rankings because of poor postseason performance is ridiculous. And not a good way to judge players.

Knocking Cobb because he played against inferior competition ? Makes sense, but because he performed poorly in the postseason ? Well then Barry Bonds shouldn't even be in your top fifty.

And I disagree that defense is more important than Offense. Would you rather have a great defensive SS like Ozzie Smith who was an average hitter, or a poor defensive LF like Ted Williams whose arguably the greatest hitter ever ?

Offense is heads and shoulders above defense in terms of importance.


I will agree with you in general (not on post season play), but for catchers I value D more than offense. However for OFs and 1Bs maybe I'd like more O out of them. However I judge catchers differently. That being said I still don't think Piazza is in the Bench/Berra discussion.

[ChrisLDuncan]

1.) Bonds: Arguably the greatest player ever.
2.) Arod: If he doesn't get injured, could retire with the majority of career offensive records.
3.) Pujols: Greatest young hitter ever.
4.) Thomas: One of the best hitters ever.
5.) Bagwell: One of the best firstbasemen ever.
6.) Griffey Jr: Over rated, but still great. Should retire with over 600 career hr's.
7.) Manny Ramirez: See Frank Thomas.
8.) Piazza: Best hitting catcher ever.
9.) Vladimir Guerrero: One of the best players of his generation.
10.) Gary Sheffield: Awesome hitter. Will reach 500 hr's.

The rest of them I don't think are hofers yet. And I was too lazy to rate the rest of them.
How can someone with 600+ HRs be overrated? Griffery also battled alot of injuries too and lost part of a season to a strike.

[Skin & Bones]

I will agree with you in general (not on post season play), but for catchers I value D more than offense. However for OFs and 1Bs maybe I'd like more O out of them. However I judge catchers differently. That being said I still don't think Piazza is in the Bench/Berra discussion.

I'd take Bench Over Piazza, Heck, even Berra. But Pudge ? No way.

[Skin & Bones]

How can someone with 600+ HRs be overrated? Griffery also battled alot of injuries too and lost part of a season to a strike.

He was overrated in the 90's. He was regarded as the superior player to Bonds, when in reality, Bonds was much better. Both offensively, and defensively.

[ChrisLDuncan]

He was overrated in the 90's. He was regarded as the superior player to Bonds, when in reality, Bonds was much better. Both offensively, and defensively.

For the career Bonds jets passes Griffey Jr. However, Jr. didn't have that surge late in his career. However durring the 90's you could make an arguement (and I'd think you'd have somewhat of a point) that Jr. was better than Bonds. Jr. hit more long balls but Bonds' OPS was always higher (atleast most of the time). Overrated? Maybe, but I don't think so.

[Skin & Bones]

For the career Bonds jets passes Griffey Jr. However, Jr. didn't have that surge late in his career. However durring the 90's you could make an arguement (and I'd think you'd have somewhat of a point) that Jr. was better than Bonds. Jr. hit more long balls but Bonds' OPS was always higher (atleast most of the time). Overrated? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Bonds was better than Griffey in the 90's. Griffey hit more homeruns, yes, but he had more atbats, and played in a hitters park, where as Bonds played in a pitchers park.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Bonds was better than Griffey in the 90's. Griffey hit more homeruns, yes, but he had more atbats, and played in a hitters park, where as Bonds played in a pitchers park.

Well it's not that I don't agree with you, I'm just saying I dunno if you can call him overrated.

[Skin & Bones]

Well it's not that I don't agree with you, I'm just saying I dunno if you can call him overrated.

Eh, I guess it depends. Those who were crowning him the best player ever back in the 90's were overrating him. His defense too was overrated.

[banda_bou]

Great Careers, But Not HOF
Andruw Jones -- will people figure out that he's been a mediocre fielder for a couple years now?

Mediocre...compared to whom? If you say compared to that level Andruw set at the beginning of his career defensively? That I can agree...there was a 6/7 year period that Andruw was the best defensive outfielder in all of baseball, probably of all-time. He's slipped a bit the last two years from that level, due to injuries ( bad back, knee)...but how many outfielders, let alone cf'ers are better than him or would you take over hiim? Still top 10 at least to me.

[Sockeye]

Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr
Mike Piazza
Albert Pujols
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Manny Ramirez
Vladimir Guerrero
Miguel Cabrera
Andruw Jones
Chipper Jones
David Ortiz
Jim Thome
Carlos Beltran
Eric Chavez
Carlos Delgado
Jim Edmonds
Todd Helton
Miguel Tejada
Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
Scott Rolen
Aramis Ramirez
Adam Dunn
Richie Sexson
Lance Berkman
Alfonso Soriano
Derrek Lee
Adrian Beltre
Mark Teixeira
Troy Glaus
Shawn Green
Paul Konerko
Carlos Lee

Adrian Beltre ahead of Mark Teixeira? Hmmmm interesting opinion

[leecemark]

--Aren't you the guy who thinks Beltre is going to be a Hall of Famer?

[EvanAparra]

Adrian Beltre ahead of Mark Teixeira? Hmmmm interesting opinion

Berkman above Bagwell is interesting as well.

[Sockeye]

--Aren't you the guy who thinks Beltre is going to be a Hall of Famer?

Yes, I do. Glad to see someone else shares my high opinion of him.

[Sockeye]

Berkman above Bagwell is interesting as well.

Both tremendous players.

career to date

Berkman: .304/.416/.566
Bagwell: .297/.408/.540

Through age 30

Berkman: .304/.416/.566
Bagwell: .304/.411/.538

Hmmmmm

[Fry]

Jeff Bagwell-8
Carlos Beltran-19
Adrian Beltre-35
Lance Berkman-24
Barry Bonds-1
Miguel Cabrera-16
Eric Chavez-30
Carlos Delgado-25
Adam Dunn-9
Jim Edmonds-22
Jason Giambi-11
Troy Glaus-23
Shawn Green-34
Ken Griffey Jr-4
Vladimir Guerrero-19
Todd Helton-14
Andruw Jones-6
Chipper Jones-21
Paul Konerko-15
Carlos Lee-20
Derrek Lee-27
David Ortiz-3
Mike Piazza-5
Albert Pujols-2
Aramis Ramirez-29
Manny Ramirez-10
Alex Rodriguez-7
Scott Rolen-26
Richie Sexson-17
Gary Sheffield-11
Alfonso Soriano-33
Mark Teixeira-28
Miguel Tejada-32
Frank Thomas-12
Jim Thome-18

[Sockeye]

Jeff Bagwell-8
Carlos Beltran-19
Adrian Beltre-35
Lance Berkman-24
Barry Bonds-1
Miguel Cabrera-16
Eric Chavez-30
Carlos Delgado-25
Adam Dunn-9
Jim Edmonds-22
Jason Giambi-11
Troy Glaus-23
Shawn Green-34
Ken Griffey Jr-4
Vladimir Guerrero-19
Todd Helton-14
Andruw Jones-6
Chipper Jones-21
Paul Konerko-15
Carlos Lee-20
Derrek Lee-27
David Ortiz-3
Mike Piazza-5
Albert Pujols-2
Aramis Ramirez-29
Manny Ramirez-10
Alex Rodriguez-7
Scott Rolen-26
Richie Sexson-17
Gary Sheffield-11
Alfonso Soriano-33
Mark Teixeira-28
Miguel Tejada-32
Frank Thomas-12
Jim Thome-18

You have Giambi and Sheffield both ranked 11th? You also have Beltran and Guerrero both ranked 19th? You have no #13 or #31

[skyking162]

Regarding Piazza, I'd probably stick by my claim that he's the best catcher ever. Bench is probably his main rival and since it's tough to really quantify defense, especially catcher defense, I can't really argue that Piazza's definitely better.

Along the same lines, I really shouldn't be making bold statements about fielding, so if I can take back the Andruw Jones comment, I probably would. I still think he gets a little too much credit overall, although he's an excellent player.

[538280]

Regarding Piazza, I'd probably stick by my claim that he's the best catcher ever. Bench is probably his main rival and since it's tough to really quantify defense, especially catcher defense, I can't really argue that Piazza's definitely better.

Along the same lines, I really shouldn't be making bold statements about fielding, so if I can take back the Andruw Jones comment, I probably would. I still think he gets a little too much credit overall, although he's an excellent player.

What many people don't realize about DIPS is that it applies to fielding as well. Part of the theory should be that fielding, particularly outfield defense, is a lot more important that it tends to get credit for. DER, which is basically the inverse of BABIP, what can unfairly influence pitcher's statistics, is usually considered something in which the outfielders have a ton of impact. While Jones has declined defensively, is that really enough to take out the part when he was the best anyone had ever seen?

I really like Piazza too, but I just don't see him over Bench. Bench has still got a pretty large longevity edge on Piazza, and though Mike may close that gap a bit it won't be with really stellar prime type play. And Piazza has also played when catcher equipment is better and catchers in general are catching more games. Very few ever had the durability of Bench. His run of durability 1968-1977 is extremely impressive in the time. Then of course there's the very large defensive edge, and Bench has tended to perform better in metrics like WS and WARP3.

[Sockeye]

Now that I have a minute I will expand on my rankings

#1 Albert Pujols.

Helps legacy....counting totals, possible records, rate stats, longevity, playoff appearances, allstar games, popularity, franchise loyalty, attitude, mvps, roy.

Hinders legacy....fielding position?

#2 Alex Rodriguez

Helps legacy....counting totals, possible records, longevity, popularity, playoff appearances, allstar games, fielding positions, Yankees, complete player, mvps

Hinders legacy...lack of franchise loyaly?

#3 Barry Bonds

Helps legacy....counting totals, records, rate stats, complete player, longevity, popularity, allstar games, mvps

Hinders legacy...steroids, attitude, poor media relations.

#4 Vladimir Guerrero

Helps legacy....counting totals, rate stats, complete player, longevity, allstar games, mvp, wow factor.

Hinders legacy...small market teams, lack of english,

#5 Miguel Cabrera

Helps legacy....counting totals, rate stats, longevity, allstar teams,

Hinders legacy...small market (so far).

#6 Manny Ramirez

Helps legacy....counting totals, rate stats, consistancy, longevity, teams played for, popularity, allstar teams, playoff appearances/performance

Hinders legacy...defensive skills, attitude.

#7 Ken Griffey Jr

Helps legacy....counting totals, longevity, popularity, allstar teams, attitude, career peak, complete player, mvp,

Hinders legacy...injuries, small market teams, lack of team success

#8 Andruw Jones

Helps legacy....counting totals, longevity, popularity, allstar teams, playoff appearances, Braves dynasty, franchise loyaly, defensive ability.

Hinders legacy...rate stats, lack of team leadership?

#9 Frank Thomas

Helps legacy....counting totals, rate stats, career peak, counting totals, mvps, popularity.

Hinders legacy...injuries, fielding position, time spent DHing.

#10 Mike Piazza

Helps legacy....counting totals, catcher, rate stats, popularity, allstar appearances, large market teams, roy.

Hinders legacy...defense

#11 Lance Berkman

Helps legacy....counting totals, rate stats, team loyalty, playoff appearances.

Hinders legacy...fielding position.

#12 Jeff Bagwell

Helps legacy....counting totals, team loyalty, consistancy, career peak, popularity, roy, mvp.

Hinders legacy...lack of playoff success, longevity.

#13 Mark Teixeira

Helps legacy....counting totals, career peak

Hinders legacy...small market, fielding position.

#14 Chipper Jones

Helps legacy....counting totals, career peak, rate stats, popularity, allstar teams, playoff appearances, Braves dynasty, franchise loyaly, fielding position.

Hinders legacy...lack of team playoff success.

#15 Miguel Tejada

Helps legacy....counting totals, consistancy, allstar teams, fielding position, run production, longevity.

Hinders legacy...small market teams.

#16 Alfonso Soriano

Helps legacy....counting totals, fielding position, speed, popularity.

Hinders legacy...several franchises, defense, attitude.

#17 Todd Helton

Helps legacy....counting totals, rate stats, career peak.

Hinders legacy....park factor, small market, lack of team success, fielding position, longevity?

#18 Gary Sheffield

Helps legacy....counting totals, longevity, career peak, playoff appearances, large markets, complete player.

Hinders legacy...several franchises, steroid questions.

#19 Jim Thome

Helps legacy....counting totals, consistancy.

Hinders legacy...fielding position, time spent DHing.

#20 Scott Rolen

Helps legacy....counting totals, fielding position, popularity, consistancy, defensive skills.

Hinders legacy...lack of huge seasons.

#21 Jim Edmonds

Helps legacy....counting totals, fielding position, defensivive ability, popularity.

Hinders legacy....longevity?

#22 David Ortiz

Helps legacy....counting totals, popularity, career peak, playoff success/performance, clutch hitting, large market.

Hinders legacy...career DH, one dimensional player.

#23 Troy Glaus

Helps legacy....counting totals, world series mvp, fielding position.

Hinders legacy...rate stats, small market teams, multiple franchises.

#24 Jason Giambi

Helps legacy....counting totals, rate stats, playoff appearances, mvp, career peak, popularity, Yankees.

Hinders legacy...steroids, longevity, fielding position.

#25 Carlos Delgado

Helps legacy....counting totals, consistancy.

Hinders legacy...small for most of career, fielding position.

#26 Carlos Beltran

Helps legacy....counting totals, complete player, playoff performance, new york.

Hinders legacy...years spent in small market, multiple franchises.

#27 Adam Dunn

Helps legacy....counting totals, plate decipline.

Hinders legacy...low average, one dimensional.

#28 Paul Konerko

Helps legacy....counting totals, world series mvp, career peak.

Hinders legacy...fielding position, rate stats.

#29 Carlos Lee

Helps legacy....counting totals, consistancy.

Hinders legacy...small market, obscurity.

#30 Derrek Lee

Helps legacy....counting totals, good defensively.

Hinders legacy...few big seasons, fielding position

#31 Aramis Ramirez

Helps legacy....counting totals, fielding position.

Hinders legacy...obscurity

#32 Eric Chavez

Helps legacy....counting totals, fielding position, playoff appearances.

Hinders legacy...small market, few big seasons.

#33 Richie Sexson

Helps legacy....counting totals.

Hinder legacy...small market teams, multiple franchises, rate stats, one dimensional, fielding position, obscurity

#34 Shawn Green

Helps legacy....counting totals, career peak, complete player.

Hinders legacy...years in small markets, multiple franchises, obscurity

#35 Adrian Beltre

Helps legacy....counting totals, longevity, fielding position.

Hinders legacy...few big seasons, rate stats, obscurity.