Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell

[ChrisLDuncan]

Are they Hall of Famers?
I say yes to both Frank Thomas had seven amazing seasons in Chicago, plus he's an on base and RBI machine.

Jeff Bagwell would have been a top slugger of a generation had it not been for steroids, so I'd say he has a place in the hall, not first ballot though. Plus he has an MVP, something that Big Mac doesn't have.

[antihipster]

Both Bagwell and Thomas has amazing stats. Both are deserving of first ballot consideration.

[RuthMayBond]

I only hope they change the HOF induction to May 27th and put them in together :D

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well it willl atleast take each of them another five years to get in...so don't go making statements like that just yet.

[Mike D.]

I'd say both are "no-doubt-about-it" Hall of Famers.

Thomas obviously helped refresh the memories of fans and writers about this greatness this season by adding 38 HR and 107 RBI (so far) to his already impressive career record.

He's now only 14 HR short of 500 for his career, and will also pass 1600 RBI next season.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Okay so if Bags is a HoFer than wouldn't Sheff be too?

[KCGHOST]

They are locks to me, but we have to wait until they are eligible for election to really worry about. Lot of things can happen between now and then.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yeah I agree both are clean players too, and fairly likeable dudes. I've met both of them, and they came off to be pretty cool. The Big Hurt will get 500, which gets him in. So I guess it's just Bagwell that has a question.

[candy curveball cummings]

Yeah I agree both are clean players too, and fairly likeable dudes. I've met both of them, and they came off to be pretty cool. The Big Hurt will get 500, which gets him in. So I guess it's just Bagwell that has a question.


Thomas doesn't need 500 Home Runs to "get him in". Frank Thomas could retire right now and get in on the first ballot. He's one of the greatest first basemen to ever play the game. Bagwell, in my opinion, has proven himself a Hall of Famer. When you think of this era, sure Sosa, Giambi, and Sheffield will all probably pop in your minds as being greater sluggers than Bagwell. Jeff Bagwell has a higher career SLG% than all of those guys. He has an awesome career OBP% which gives him a great OPS and an OPS+ of 150.

Both of these guys are Hall of Famers.

[Skin & Bones]

Yes. Both are all-time Great hitters. Bagwell also has an arguement as the best 1B since WW2.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Dunno about that, there's this guy named Pujols that has been pretty good. Also Todd Helton has been a great player (albeit in Coors Field), Donnie Baseball was pretty good too, but overall yeah maybe he is the greatest 1B since WW2.

[Skin & Bones]

Dunno about that, there's this guy named Pujols that has been pretty good. Also Todd Helton has been a great player (albeit in Coors Field), Donnie Baseball was pretty good too, but overall yeah maybe he is the greatest 1B since WW2.

Pujols, assuming he doesn't have a career ending injury, doesn't get caught cheating, or gamble/throw games, could retire a top five player all-time. And Mattingly better than Bagwell ? Not a chance. Helton is great, but Bagwell's still had the better career.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I dunno about Pujols being a top five player of all time, Ruth, Bonds, Gehrig, Ted, Joe D, Walter Johnson, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, those guys would be tough to get by.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Oh Willie McCovey was better than Bags, but other than him it's kind of hard to decide whom it is.

[Skin & Bones]

I dunno about Pujols being a top five player of all time, Ruth, Bonds, Gehrig, Ted, Joe D, Walter Johnson, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, those guys would be tough to get by.

By WinShares, Pujols already has the second greatest peak for a 1B EVER. Which is the five best consecutive years. Only Lou is ahead. And adjust a bit for league quality, and that Pujols career is far from over, He should slide ahead soon. Heck, by next year Pujols will already be halfway to Lou's career WinShares by a 1B record. Add in Pujols outstanding defense ( robbed of a gold glove last year, should win this year), and baserunning, and you, IMO, have a guy who could retire a top five player all-time.

[ChrisLDuncan]

He won't go on this tear his whole career, and the Iron Horse is not only a top five player of all time. He is also the CLASSIEST man in the history of baseball.

[Skin & Bones]

He won't go on this tear his whole career, and the Iron Horse is not only a top five player of all time. He is also the CLASSIEST man in the history of baseball.

Pujols this year looked to have the best season of his career, but injuries stopped him. If he doesn't get injured, and takes care of himself, what makes you think he won't be the best he can be for a long time ?

And Lou a classy guy, I agree, and Pujols isn't ? The guy is the anti-Barry Bonds.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well that injury in his oblique will affect his swing, hell it has affected his swing. Plus I don't think that Pujols when faced with death will say he's the luckiest man alive. Nor will he be the "Pride of the Cardnals" plus that just sounds retarded.

[candy curveball cummings]

Oh Willie McCovey was better than Bags, but other than him it's kind of hard to decide whom it is.


I disagree. I think Bagwell was a better first baseman than McCovey. It's close, and I guess it depends on opinion, but I have Bagwell with a slight statistical edge.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say Pujols' swing has been affected. Since July 1st, he's batting .346 with 20 Home Runs and 62 RBI in 72 Games. He has 45 extra-base hits in that period. It doesn't look to me like he's lost a whole lot on that swing.

[mtortolero]

I only hope they change the HOF induction to May 27th and put them in together :D

What a coincidence both guys having the same birthday. Thanks!

[RuthMayBond]

Well it willl atleast take each of them another five years to get in...so don't go making statements like that just yet.I'm only talking about for that one year. Either that, or change the date to sometime in November, especially if they are voted in in 2014, the 20th anniversary of them BOTH winning MVP :dance

[leecemark]

Thomas doesn't need 500 Home Runs to "get him in". Frank Thomas could retire right now and get in on the first ballot. He's one of the greatest first basemen to ever play the game. Bagwell, in my opinion, has proven himself a Hall of Famer. When you think of this era, sure Sosa, Giambi, and Sheffield will all probably pop in your minds as being greater sluggers than Bagwell. Jeff Bagwell has a higher career SLG% than all of those guys. He has an awesome career OBP% which gives him a great OPS and an OPS+ of 150.

Both of these guys are Hall of Famers.

--Thomas could have retired 5 years ago and still been a first ballot Hall of Famer.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I disagree. I think Bagwell was a better first baseman than McCovey. It's close, and I guess it depends on opinion, but I have Bagwell with a slight statistical edge.


McCovey was the most feared hitter in the NL at that time, which is saying a lot considering that Mays was on the same team. So I dunno McCovey and Bags, that's a toss up.

[candy curveball cummings]

--Thomas could have retired 5 years ago and still been a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Oh, Easily.

[RuthMayBond]

McCovey was the most feared hitter in the NL at that time, which is saying a lot considering that Mays was on the same team.
OPS+, 1960-65
McCovey 128, 125, 155, 161, 108, 154
WMays 160, 160, 166, 175, 172, 185

[candy curveball cummings]

OPS+, 1960-65
McCovey 128, 125, 155, 161, 108, 154
WMays 160, 160, 166, 175, 172, 185

Well, there all over 100. :laugh I actually thought about posting this, but decided to let someone else who was less lazy look it up. It's not even close. Willie Mays is one of the greatest of all-time, Willie McCovey was certainly great, but not at the same level. Who was more afraid of McCovey than Mays?

[leecemark]

--In the late 60s/early 70s probably most people. Mays was obviously the greater player, but old Mays wasn't as dangerous as prime McCovey. They were teammates through 1972 and most of the last 6-7 season McCovey was the better hitter.

[STLCards2]

Pujols, assuming he doesn't have a career ending injury, doesn't get caught cheating, or gamble/throw games, could retire a top five player all-time. And Mattingly better than Bagwell ? Not a chance. Helton is great, but Bagwell's still had the better career.

Considering Bagwell posted great numbers in the Astrodome, I would love to see how well he would have hit at Coors...with speed to boot.:laugh Helton better than Bagwell? Not a chance. Mattingly better than Bagwell? Even less of a chance.

[STLCards2]

Also, I don't think it's fair to say Pujols' swing has been affected. Since July 1st, he's batting .346 with 20 Home Runs and 62 RBI in 72 Games. He has 45 extra-base hits in that period. It doesn't look to me like he's lost a whole lot on that swing.


What a scrub!:laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh How would he have hit if he didn't have a bum oblique?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bags and Big Hurt are HOFers. If they're not, I don't know who is.

[Sockeye]

Both should be first ballot HOFers IMO

[Skin & Bones]

--In the late 60s/early 70s probably most people. Mays was obviously the greater player, but old Mays wasn't as dangerous as prime McCovey. They were teammates through 1972 and most of the last 6-7 season McCovey was the better hitter.

I agree with this. Mccovey was indeed a more prolific HR hitter than Mays. And before Bonds in 2002, held the single season record for IBB'S with 45.

[538280]

OPS+, 1960-65
McCovey 128, 125, 155, 161, 108, 154
WMays 160, 160, 166, 175, 172, 185

I think that timeframe should be brought forward a bit. :laugh

Thomas and Bagwell? I consider them both two of the top 30 players of all time. Someone else said if Thomas retired 5 years ago he's be a first ballot HOFer. To me, if he retired TEN years ago he'd be damn close to the HOF (casting aside the 10 years issue, just looking at his value).

[ChrisLDuncan]

That statement was also from Johnny Bench, he said that when he would game plan for the pitcher. McCovey was always the more feared hitter, I'll take his word for it. But Mays was ten times the player he was.

[candy curveball cummings]

That statement was also from Johnny Bench, he said that when he would game plan for the pitcher. McCovey was always the more feared hitter, I'll take his word for it. But Mays was ten times the player he was.


And I get that, I do. McCovey did lead the league in IBB 4 times and only Bonds and Aaron have been intentionally walked more times than McCovey. So I see how he was the most feared hitter of his time, but to me Bagwell is slightly better. McCovey played for 22 years, which is great and if you want to give him points for longevity go ahead. Bagwell only played for 15 years, but his counting stats are just as good as McCovey's. His rate stats are better than McCovey.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yeah I would be inclined to agree with you as an overall player, it's just that McCovey was damn good.

[candy curveball cummings]

Yeah I would be inclined to agree with you as an overall player, it's just that McCovey was damn good.

McCovey was damned good, and probably doesn't get enough credit.

[ChrisLDuncan]

McCovey was damned good, and probably doesn't get enough credit.
To be the most feared hitter on baseball especailly when Say Hey Willie Mays was on the SAME TEAM, is quite an accomplishment.

[candy curveball cummings]

To be the most feared hitter on baseball especailly when Say Hey Willie Mays was on the SAME TEAM, is quite an accomplishment.

I wonder where most would rank Wille McCovey among first basemen all-time.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Some where in the top five for me. However I'll start a thread and find out what every one else thinks.

[tommydale1]

I agree with this. Mccovey was indeed a more prolific HR hitter than Mays. And before Bonds in 2002, held the single season record for IBB'S with 45.

Please forgive my age and ignorance, I'm 27, but the numbers don't support this statement. McCovey only topped 40 HR's twice and topped out at 158 hits. Mays topped 50 HR's twice and hit more than 40 HR's 6 times. McCovey was never a hitter for avg., while Mays consistantly hit over .300.

Maybe it's me, but McCovey might only be remembered as a more "prolific" HR hitter than Mays because that's all he brought to the table. He had power and the RBI production that power brings with it...but he wasn't the HR hitter Mays was.

It's kinda like saying that Hank Aaron was good...but MAN could that Eddie Matthews hit the Homers!!!!! It's true, but it sounds funny.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Please forgive my age and ignorance, I'm 27, but the numbers don't support this statement. McCovey only topped 40 HR's twice and topped out at 158 hits. Mays topped 50 HR's twice and hit more than 40 HR's 6 times. McCovey was never a hitter for avg., while Mays consistantly hit over .300.

Maybe it's me, but McCovey might only be remembered as a more "prolific" HR hitter than Mays because that's all he brought to the table. He had power and the RBI production that power brings with it...but he wasn't the HR hitter Mays was.

It's kinda like saying that Hank Aaron was good...but MAN could that Eddie Matthews hit the Homers!!!!! It's true, but it sounds funny.

Well Johnny Bench said that when game planning for McCovey he was the guy you couldn't make a mistake around not Mays. I mean Mays was better than McCovey no doubt. However I was just throwing McCovey out there as a great post WWII 1st Basemen. Saying that he was more feared than mays. I think it's a little bit more different than the Matthews and Aaron comparison.

[Ubiquitous]

Johnny Bench was the full time catcher in 1968. Willie Mays was 37 that year and no longer elite. McCovey on the other hand was in the middle of his prime. It is pretty easy to see why Bench was more worried about Mccovey then Mays by this point.

[UTforever22]

Oh Willie McCovey was better than Bags.

thats debatable. Bags has about 100 more hits, a higher BA, more walks, higher OBP, a higher SLG. Bags also played most of his career in the pitcher friendly Astrodome. Not to mention that in his day bagwell could also steal 30 bases, WM never stole more than 4. Bag also have a gold glove, which WM does not have.

[candy curveball cummings]

thats debatable. Bags has about 100 more hits, a higher BA, more walks, higher OBP, a higher SLG. Bags also played most of his career in the pitcher friendly Astrodome. Not to mention that in his day bagwell could also steal 30 bases, WM never stole more than 4. Bag also have a gold glove, which WM does not have.

We've already had this discussion and ChrisLDuncan agreed that Bagwell was the better overall player.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Was a snap judgement, I was thinking post WW2 1st basemen, and I was watching a Giants game...so McCovey came to mind (due to the Cove) so I didn't exactly think that one through all the way.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Does it hurt Bagwell that his best (and only MVP) season came in 1994 (the strike season)?

[538280]

Does it hurt Bagwell that his best (and only MVP) season came in 1994 (the strike season)?

Probably. I think that also hurts Frank Thomas when talking about him on a historical level, and also Albert Belle's HOF credentials. With Belle, his top 3 WS seasons were 37, 31, and 30 and top five consecutive are , which isn't that great and I've heard him get criticized for that. If you prorate out his 1994 and 1995 seasons though that makes his top 3 WS seasons are 37, 35, and 34, his top five consecutive 155. This is how it changes his ranks among the LFers:

Albert Belle's Peak WS Ranks:
...............................3yrPeak........5yrC onPeak
Before Strike Credit........19th..............18th
After Strike Credit...........9th...............8th

It makes a pretty big difference.

[Chisox]

Please forgive my age and ignorance, I'm 27, but the numbers don't support this statement. McCovey only topped 40 HR's twice and topped out at 158 hits. Mays topped 50 HR's twice and hit more than 40 HR's 6 times. McCovey was never a hitter for avg., while Mays consistantly hit over .300.

Maybe it's me, but McCovey might only be remembered as a more "prolific" HR hitter than Mays because that's all he brought to the table. He had power and the RBI production that power brings with it...but he wasn't the HR hitter Mays was.

It's kinda like saying that Hank Aaron was good...but MAN could that Eddie Matthews hit the Homers!!!!! It's true, but it sounds funny.
Well, Eddie Mathews was the more prolific HR hitter in the 50's than Aaron.
Mathews' first season was '52 when he hit 25. From then on, he hit 47, 40, 41, 37, 32, 31, 46, and 39 through '60.
Just for comparison
TOTAL HOME RUNS 52-60

Year Mathews Aaron
1952 25 0
1953 47 0
1954 40 13
1955 41 27
1956 37 26
1957 32 44
1958 31 30
1959 46 39
1960 39 40

Mathews beats Aaron 338-219. Mathews has 266 from '54-'60
And he was doing it FAR fewer ABs season-season.

1952 0.047 -
1953 0.081 -
1954 0.084 0.028
1955 0.082 0.045
1956 0.067 0.043
1957 0.056 0.072
1958 0.057 0.050
1959 0.077 0.062
1960 0.071 0.068

Mathews beats Aaron .069 to .053 playing on the same team at the same time.
Comparing Mays and McCovey:
Totals

Year McCovey Mays
1963 44 38
1964 18 47
1965 39 52
1966 36 37
1967 31 22
1968 36 23
1969 45 13
1970 39 28
1971 18 18
306 278

Close, but Mays REALLY dropped off after '66, while Mccovey didn't.
A look at the percentages:

Year McCovey Mays
1963 0.078 0.064
1964 0.049 0.081
1965 0.072 0.093
1966 0.072 0.067
1967 0.068 0.045
1968 0.069 0.046
1969 0.092 0.026
1970 0.079 0.059
1971 0.055 0.043
0.072 0.060

reveals that Mays beat McCovey in %s most of the first half of McCovey's peak, but McCovey beat him late on, but not nearly to the extent that the totals would look like.

[Chisox]

Dunno about that, there's this guy named Pujols that has been pretty good. Also Todd Helton has been a great player (albeit in Coors Field), Donnie Baseball was pretty good too, but overall yeah maybe he is the greatest 1B since WW2.
Pujols is doing now what Bagwell was doing a decade ago.
Helton would have increase his adjusted numbers to be duplicating Bagwell.
Mattingly...:laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh
McCovey had better power, but is behind Bagwell in everything else. Just to put into perspective Bagwell has better totals than McCovey in 7 fewer seasons and fewer ABs.
And everything I said for Bagwell I can say about Thomas, as well, except for baserunning/defense.

[tommydale1]

Nice Breakdown ChiSox!!! Thanx for the info! :waving

[BoSox Rule]

Some players don't even need a thread in this forum. They are two of them.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Some players don't even need a thread in this forum. They are two of them.
Thanks for yet another fully defined convincing argument and well-researched post.

[BoSox Rule]

Don't give me too much credit. It doesn't take much to realize that they are 1st ballot locks.

[adibo]

Im pretty sure they will get in. Bagwell may be the best player, if not the best hitter that ever played for the astros. He was a dedicated player who played about 15 years with the same club. I think he hit 400 something homer runs. Same with Frank Thomas, he should hit 500 homers by 2008.

[rockin500]

Thanks for yet another fully defined convincing argument and well-researched post.
but he's right. they dont really need any case made for them.

[538280]

Pujols is doing now what Bagwell was doing a decade ago.


This is somethign that interests me about Pujols, which is that what he's doing is not nearly as unique in baseball history as it's being made out to be, and many of the others players who did these things are players like Bagwell and Thomas, whom many sportswriters (though stupidly, of course, but still) have said they do not view as HOFers.

Dick Allen is another one who came into the league and did things very similar to what Pujols is doing now (at THIRD BASE). He's not even in the HOF, though IMO he's the best player outside.

[Skin & Bones]

This is somethign that interests me about Pujols, which is that what he's doing is not nearly as unique in baseball history as it's being made out to be, and many of the others players who did these things are players like Bagwell and Thomas, whom many sportswriters (though stupidly, of course, but still) have said they do not view as HOFers.

Dick Allen is another one who came into the league and did things very similar to what Pujols is doing now (at THIRD BASE). He's not even in the HOF, though IMO he's the best player outside.

Many of the writers are stupid, but most knowledgable ones believe they are both first ballot Hofers.

That said, Pujols deserves to have a big deal made about his accomplishments, he's one of the best young players in baseball history. Great hitting, elite defense ( deserving of gold glove lastyear, should win this year) and a fantastic baserunner. Thomas, while a better hitter during his first years, wasn't the player Pujols is. And Bagwell wasn't great until 1994 ( strike year, and he got injured any way). And I don't know if you remember, but Thomas during his prime was called the right-handed Ted Williams.

[538280]

Many of the writers are stupid, but most knowledgable ones believe they are both first ballot Hofers.

That said, Pujols deserves to have a big deal made about his accomplishments, he's one of the best young players in baseball history. Great hitting, elite defense ( deserving of gold glove lastyear, should win this year) and a fantastic baserunner. Thomas, while a better hitter during his first years, wasn't the player Pujols is.

Are you sure about that though? I really don't see much of a way to call Pujols better. Yeah, he has been a better fielder, but these are 1Bmen we're talking about here. Fielding just isn't that huge a difference. Here are their OPS+ their first 5 full years

Thomas: 212, 180, 178, 177, 174 Average: 184.2
Pujols: 189, 175, 167, 158, 155 Average: 168.8

I don't think any defense from first base is enough to make up for 15 points of OPS+. Was Keith Hernandez's (129 OPS+, and Pujols isn't that good defensively) per game value about the same as Harmon Killebrew's (143 OPS+)?

[candy curveball cummings]

Are you sure about that though? I really don't see much of a way to call Pujols better. Yeah, he has been a better fielder, but these are 1Bmen we're talking about here. Fielding just isn't that huge a difference. Here are their OPS+ their first 5 full years

Thomas: 212, 180, 178, 177, 174 Average: 184.2
Pujols: 189, 175, 167, 158, 155 Average: 168.8

I don't think any defense from first base is enough to make up for 15 points of OPS+. Was Keith Hernandez's (129 OPS+, and Pujols isn't that good defensively) per game value about the same as Harmon Killebrew's (143 OPS+)?

And I would say that at that time, Frank Thomas was getting a lot of attention (including winning 2 MVPs). I think what's special about Pujols is that he wasn't supposed to be quite this good. He was a 13th round pick. Thomas was a top prospect, and was supposed to be good (though not as good as he was). Pujols sort of came out of no where.

[Skin & Bones]

Are you sure about that though? I really don't see much of a way to call Pujols better. Yeah, he has been a better fielder, but these are 1Bmen we're talking about here. Fielding just isn't that huge a difference. Here are their OPS+ their first 5 full years

Thomas: 212, 180, 178, 177, 174 Average: 184.2
Pujols: 189, 175, 167, 158, 155 Average: 168.8

I don't think any defense from first base is enough to make up for 15 points of OPS+. Was Keith Hernandez's (129 OPS+, and Pujols isn't that good defensively) per game value about the same as Harmon Killebrew's (143 OPS+)?


Thomas 212 OPS+ was in a strike shortened season. No OPS+ after that beats Pujols 189 in 03. And I already said I agree he was the better hitter, but it wasn't huge difference at all.

And Games played Pujols: 790 ( through 05), Thomas: 644 from 1990-1994. And if you were counting Thomas 95 season, then Pujols still surpasses him, because you would then have to count in all of his games this year. And with his league leading OPS, his OPS+ is bound to go up.

And Who are you to say Pujols isn't that good defensively ?

John Dewan's state-of-the-art fielding metric sees Pujols as the NL'S best 1B last year. And this year, David Studes has picked Pujols as the NL'S deserving GG 1B. And for what it's worth, Baseball Prospectus FRAA stat sees Pujols at 18 runs above average. Remarkable.

Not ONE single fielding metric sees Pujols as " not that good " defensively, they all agree that he's one of the best in the league.

[Skin & Bones]

And I would say that at that time, Frank Thomas was getting a lot of attention (including winning 2 MVPs). I think what's special about Pujols is that he wasn't supposed to be quite this good. He was a 13th round pick. Thomas was a top prospect, and was supposed to be good (though not as good as he was). Pujols sort of came out of no where.

Frank Thomas was called the right-handed Ted Williams, what more attention could you possibly need ?

[ChrisLDuncan]

Many of the writers are stupid, but most knowledgable ones believe they are both first ballot Hofers.

That said, Pujols deserves to have a big deal made about his accomplishments, he's one of the best young players in baseball history. Great hitting, elite defense ( deserving of gold glove lastyear, should win this year) and a fantastic baserunner. Thomas, while a better hitter during his first years, wasn't the player Pujols is. And Bagwell wasn't great until 1994 ( strike year, and he got injured any way). And I don't know if you remember, but Thomas during his prime was called the right-handed Ted Williams.

Well not so fast here, let's let Pujols do this for a few more years and than we can make a big deal about him. Before Frank Thomas was "The Right Handed Ted Williams" there was Rogers Hornsby, and before him there was Jimmy Foxx. Also there were hitters like Joe Dimaggio (his power numbers were hurt by Yankee Stadium). When you're comparing Pujols to Bagwell, you also have to realize that when Bagwell was playing the league OPS was about a hundred points lower than when Pujos was getting his start. Also another right handed hitter was doing something more fantastic that what Pujols was doing aswell, execpt he was playing Short Stop throughout most of it, that is the man that they call A-Rod. Alex Rodriguez was the youngest man to reach many of his career milestones, also he was doing it as a short stop. Now he's doing it as a thirdbasemen, say what you will about his struggles as a Yankee, the man is still playing monstrous ball. His year this year is probably his worst yet (although 1997 was rough too), and he's still on pace to go 35/120, and he's doing it in the toughest place to play sports. Also there was Vladimir Guerrero, who is a grotesquely underrated player in today's game. ALso there is a LF in Boston that may end up breaking Hank Aaron's career RBI record. Manny's statistics are staggering, especially considering how long he's been doing this. When you look at Pujols' awards he only won one MVP, and he didn't desreve it in 2005 because D-Lee had a better year statistically, and Aundrew Jones meant more to his team, and both of those guys played gold glove D. The argument though is that he was competeing with Bonds for the MVP, and I know there is controversy so let's assume that he is dirty. In 2002 he finished second in the MVP voting, well in all reality Lance Berkman and Vladimir Guerrero had much better years so I would say they deserved the award over Pujols. In 2003 he finished second again, however Gary Sheffield put up similar numbers that year, execpt he had about ten more RBIs also Javi Lopez had a monster season at catcher. So I would say they were more deserving than Pujols. I still feel that Pujols will be a great player maybe even top twenty of all time, just that don't go off saying that he's the best right handed hitter just yet. I'm not saying that he can't do amazing things, he allready has, just give it sometime before you talk about where he ranks all time.

[Skin & Bones]

Well not so fast here, let's let Pujols do this for a few more years and than we can make a big deal about him. Before Frank Thomas was "The Right Handed Ted Williams" there was Rogers Hornsby, and before him there was Jimmy Foxx.

I agree. I never said that either of them are the right-handed Ted Williams. I'm just pointing out that Thomas did indeed recieve A LOT of hype during his peak years. I just disagree that we can't make a big deal about what Pujols is doing.


When you're comparing Pujols to Bagwell, you also have to realize that when Bagwell was playing the league OPS was about a hundred points lower than when Pujos was getting his start.

My point regarding Bagwell was that he didn't start off his career as good as Pujols.

Pujols was doing aswell, execpt he was playing Short Stop throughout most of it, that is the man that they call A-Rod. Alex Rodriguez was the youngest man to reach many of his career milestones, also he was doing it as a short stop. Now he's doing it as a thirdbasemen, say what you will about his struggles as a Yankee, the man is still playing monstrous ball. His year this year is probably his worst yet (although 1997 was rough too), and he's still on pace to go 35/120, and he's doing it in the toughest place to play sports.

I agree, Arod is amazing, and gets tons of hype. There's already talk about him being the best player ever, which I believe is way too pre-mature.

I still feel that Pujols will be a great player maybe even top twenty of all time, just that don't go off saying that he's the best right handed hitter just yet. I'm not saying that he can't do amazing things, he allready has, just give it sometime.

But I never said he was the best right-handed hitter of all-time. I just said he deserves the hype he gets, and is one of the best young players in baseball history.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Fair enough.

[STLCards2]

I still feel that Pujols will be a great player

Now don't go crazy with your predictions or anything.:D

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well right now he's just gone on a pretty nice five year tear. Right now I still put him behind Manny Ramirez, just because Manny's been doing it for over a decade. However my judgement of Pujols will change with in the next five years.

[538280]

Thomas 212 OPS+ was in a strike shortened season. No OPS+ after that beats Pujols 189 in 03. And I already said I agree he was the better hitter, but it wasn't huge difference at all.

Why should you bring down the strike shortened season? He did what he did when he did it. His OPS+ very well could have gone up as well as down when the strike shortened the year.

And Games played Pujols: 790 ( through 05), Thomas: 644 from 1990-1994. And if you were counting Thomas 95 season, then Pujols still surpasses him, because you would then have to count in all of his games this year. And with his league leading OPS, his OPS+ is bound to go up.

Thomas wasn't called up until August of 1990, that wasn't a full season anyway. Then the rest of the missed games come from the '94 and '95 strike. Thomas played in just about the exact same percentage of games that Pujols did 1991-1995.

And Who are you to say Pujols isn't that good defensively ?

John Dewan's state-of-the-art fielding metric sees Pujols as the NL'S best 1B last year. And this year, David Studes has picked Pujols as the NL'S deserving GG 1B. And for what it's worth, Baseball Prospectus FRAA stat sees Pujols at 18 runs above average. Remarkable.

Not ONE single fielding metric sees Pujols as " not that good " defensively, they all agree that he's one of the best in the league.

Pujols is one of the best in the league defensively, there's no doubt about that. I meant he wasn't as good as Keith Hernandez defensively.

[Skin & Bones]

Why should you bring down the strike shortened season? He did what he did when he did it. His OPS+ very well could have gone up as well as down when the strike shortened the year.


I'm not " bringing it down ", I'm just pointing out that his 212 OPS+, while extremely impressive, was compiled in 113 games. It's quite possible that if he would of played 157 games that year, like Pujols in 2003, his gaudy OPS+ could of taken a decline, and stay around 175-190, which was a typical OPS+ for him during his prime.

Thomas wasn't called up until August of 1990, that wasn't a full season anyway. Then the rest of the missed games come from the '94 and '95 strike. Thomas played in just about the exact same percentage of games that Pujols did 1991-1995.


I know about all of this, and those missed games indeed make a difference. Which could possibly inflate his OPS+ totals.

Pujols is one of the best in the league defensively, there's no doubt about that. I meant he wasn't as good as Keith Hernandez defensively.

Fair enough.

And for what it's worth, here are Thomas WS totals from 1991-1995, and Pujols totals from 2001-2005.

Thomas

1991: 34 WS
1992: 33 WS
1993: 32 WS
1994: 25 WS
1995: 28 WS

Pujols

2001: 29 WS
2002: 32 WS
2003: 41 WS
2004: 40 WS
2005: 38 WS

As you can see, going by WS, Pujols was the better player. And as I said before, I agree Thomas was a better hitter than Pujols during his peak ( though, things may change), but Pujols is better at other facets of the game.

[PopTop]

They're both ahead of McGwire as far as I'm concerned.

[STLCards2]

They're both ahead of McGwire as far as I'm concerned.

Very few around here would disagree with that...even without the steroid implications.

I think the more interesting question would be if Pujols is already ahead of McGwire (if no steroids. Let's have fun pretending.).

Mcgwire: full of injuries, K's, slow baseruning, and medicre defense. Longevity (as of now)

Pujols: better in every area except HR rates and as of right now counting stats.

[538280]

And for what it's worth, here are Thomas WS totals from 1991-1995, and Pujols totals from 2001-2005.

Thomas

1991: 34 WS
1992: 33 WS
1993: 32 WS
1994: 25 WS
1995: 28 WS

Pujols

2001: 29 WS
2002: 32 WS
2003: 41 WS
2004: 40 WS
2005: 38 WS

As you can see, going by WS, Pujols was the better player. And as I said before, I agree Thomas was a better hitter than Pujols during his peak ( though, things may change), but Pujols is better at other facets of the game.

I was not aware that WS said that. I like WS a lot, but looking at the statistics how I normally do Thomas seems better to me. Interesting. Again, though, much of that difference is because of the stikes (though even with that credit I don't think Thomas would be better. This is what I get when I expand for the strike (take a player's games played, divide that by team games played, multiply by 162 and prorate games to played to that number):

1991: 34 WS
1992: 33 WS
1993: 32 WS
1994: 36 WS
1995: 32 WS

That's still not as good as Pujols, but it closes the gap a bit.