Who is the BEST SS in 2006.

[yankillaz]

I have this discussion with several people. And since i can't make a poll, i ask:

If you can pick the SS for your team, who will it be?


Derek Jeter
Jose Reyes
Miguel Tejada
Michael Young


I look forward to all your responses.

[cardsfanatic]

Jeter - .310 EQA, 38 BRAA, 1 FRAA, 11.0 WARP3
Reyes - .285 EQA, 20 BRAA, -14 FRAA, 6.5 WARP3
Tejada - .293 EQA, 25 BRAA, 4 FRAA, 9.9 WARP3
Young - .270 EQA, 8 BRAA, 16 FRAA, 9.8 WRAP3

So, I'd have to order them...

1) Derek Jeter
2) Miguel Tejada
3) Michael Young
4) Jose Reyes

And I'd take them, pending availability, in that order.

[yankillaz]

I think the question is pretty obvious. My bad. Take it into the last three to four seasons. Is that i'm tryin to get an honest answer. I pretty much think Tejada grabs this.

[Brooklyn]

Jeter - .310 EQA, 38 BRAA, 1 FRAA, 11.0 WARP3
Reyes - .285 EQA, 20 BRAA, -14 FRAA, 6.5 WARP3
Tejada - .293 EQA, 25 BRAA, 4 FRAA, 9.9 WARP3
Young - .270 EQA, 8 BRAA, 16 FRAA, 9.8 WRAP3

So, I'd have to order them...

1) Derek Jeter
2) Miguel Tejada
3) Michael Young
4) Jose Reyes

And I'd take them, pending availability, in that order.

What do all these stats mean?

[cardsfanatic]

If it's the last 3-4 seasons then you should replace Jose Reyes with Rafael Furcal, then. Reyes has one good year and that's it.

[Brooklyn]

I have this discussion with several people. And since i can't make a poll, i ask:

If you can pick the SS for your team, who will it be?


Derek Jeter
Jose Reyes
Miguel Tejada
Michael Young


I look forward to all your responses.

If I had to pick a SS to try and win a world championship this year, based on the last 3-4 season, would be Tejada. If I had to pick a SS to build a team around for the next 5 years or more, I'd take Reyes

[cardsfanatic]

What do all these stats mean?

EQA - The measure of total output per out
BRAA - Batting Runs Above Average Hitter -- basically, how many more runs you get from that player with his bat than an average hitter.
FRAA - Fielding Runs Above Average Fielder -- same as BRAA, only fielding.
WARP - Wins Above Replacement Player -- taking everything into account, the wins this player contributes to a team above what a replacement level player would contribute.

[VTSoxFan]

I added the poll to the thread, yankillaz.

[Brooklyn]

EQA - The measure of total output per out
BRAA - Batting Runs Above Average Hitter -- basically, how many more runs you get from that player with his bat than an average hitter.
FRAA - Fielding Runs Above Average Fielder -- same as BRAA, only fielding.
WARP - Wins Above Replacement Player -- taking everything into account, the wins this player contributes to a team above what a replacement level player would contribute.

thanks. I'm having a hard time seeing how Jeter's stats in these categories come out that much higher than Tejada's. they have very similar stats, with Jeter walking more and having the higher OBP, but Tejada having more power. I'm especially confused at how Jeter would have a 50% edge in BRAA (based on the definition you provided above, not the underlying components of the stat)

What goes into these stats?

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

I say Young or Tejada, maybe Jeter, but, Young is tied for most hits in baseball and can hit for power.

[cardsfanatic]

thanks. I'm having a hard time seeing how Jeter's stats in these categories come out that much higher than Tejada's. they have very similar stats, with Jeter walking more and having the higher OBP, but Tejada having more power. I'm especially confused at how Jeter would have a 50% edge in BRAA (based on the definition you provided above, not the underlying components of the stat)

What goes into these stats?

Miguel Tejada has more AB's for one thing (all of these stats equalize everything -- each player is compared with the same number of AB's). He's used more of his team's outs (never a good thing) and he has a much lower OBP. Those are key stats that 8 homeruns doesn't coutner. That's all Tejada has on Jeter. 8 homeruns. The 2B are the same, Jeter is a far better base stealer, walks more, grounds in to WAY fewer double plays, hits for a higher average, gets on base far better. I don't see how someone could look at each player's stats and not see that Jeter is far better than Tejada _this_ year. Jeter is better in everything... aside from HR, where Tejada leads him by 8 jacks. There's no way I'd give up a .340 hitter that gets on base 42% of the time for a .325 hitter that gets on base 37% of the time simply because of 8 homeruns. 20-25 more homeruns then we might have a discussion. 8? Nah. In fact, the only guy on this entire list that's done something significantly better than Jeter is Reyes with his stolen bases. But considering Reyes has been caught 23% of the time that's fairly debatable, too. Jeter's 32 SB with a 92% success rate. Myself, personally, would be more inclined to go with Jeter's total (accompanied with that success rate) over 57 swipes with a 77% success rate.

Here's the official definition of EQA accompanied by what goes into it: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=61

Same for BRAA: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=211

Same for FRAA: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=75

And WARP: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=193

[cardsfanatic]

I say Young or Tejada, maybe Jeter, but, Young is tied for most hits in baseball and can hit for power.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, Young plays in the most offensive friendly parks in the AL and he has 14 homeruns just like Jeter, 8 behind Tejada and 5 behind Reyes. Now, Young is a better doubles hitter than all of these guys but a lot of that is a credit to the expansiveness of Ameriquest, I assure you.

[trosmok]

Miguel Tejada is a one man gang, and the only really bright spot in the truly miserable stretch the Orioles are going through. Not a thing wrong with Young or Reyes, they just aren't my pick. The offensive stats that MT and Jeter have compiled this season are very close; the biggest difference has been DJ's teammates knocking him in, and him doing the same for them. Tejada doesn't have that luxury, and leads the orange and blackbirds in virtually every batting category. The only thing statistics really prove, as you know, are their own existence; you can compile mounds of numbers but they don't mean diddly squat without careful interpretation. I prefer what I've seen with my own peepers, and then check the stats to see if perception can be born out, not the other way around.
His defense is rock solid, and while his fielding % isn't as high as some others, he has been involved with fielding the most DPs and right up there in total chances, putouts, etc. The one area he has a tremendous edge is in his range, as compared to the Yankee captain. If I were to build a team, Tejada wouldn't be just my first choice for SS, he would also be my first pick for any player at any position. Like Casey used to say, you start up the middle, and work toward the edges: SS, 2B, CF, C, SP, 1B, 3B, RF, LF, Bullpen. (I'd be tempted to pick Alfonso Pacheco Soriano next in my expansion draft) :clapping

[cardsfanatic]

While Jeter does hit in the better lineup he has still hit primarily 1st and 2nd all year long. While Tejada has hit in the far more RBI friendly 3rd position. And their RBI OP's show that.

Tejada has gotten 339 RBI OPS. Jeter has gotten 313.

And another key reason outside of being on a good team that Jeter gets knocked in so frequently is that he's always on base. The more you get on base the more you're going to score.

[KCGHOST]

I think it is pretty much a dead heat between Jeter and Tejada. Of course, if Arod was still a SS we wouldn't be arguing about this.

[skyking162]

I'm especially confused at how Jeter would have a 50% edge in BRAA (based on the definition you provided above, not the underlying components of the stat)

People need to be careful presenting and interpreting value measures that are compared to average. There's actually a lot of value in just being average, and the majority of major league players are below-average. It's better to use values that compare players to replacement level as the baseline. A simplified, pulled out of my ass example:

Let's say the average full-time shortstop is 40 runs better than replacement. That means Jeter is 78 (38 + 40) runs above replacement and Tejada's at 65 (25 + 40). Jeter's 13 run advantage is now "only" a 20% advantage instead of what looked like a 50% advantage when using average as the baseline.

It's really the absolute differences that matter, anyways. A 13-run hitting advantage translates into a little over a one win advantage.

[Brooklyn]

People need to be careful presenting and interpreting value measures that are compared to average. There's actually a lot of value in just being average, and the majority of major league players are below-average. It's better to use values that compare players to replacement level as the baseline. A simplified, pulled out of my ass example:

Let's say the average full-time shortstop is 40 runs better than replacement. That means Jeter is 78 (38 + 40) runs above replacement and Tejada's at 65 (25 + 40). Jeter's 13 run advantage is now "only" a 20% advantage instead of what looked like a 50% advantage when using average as the baseline.

It's really the absolute differences that matter, anyways. A 13-run hitting advantage translates into a little over a one win advantage.

good point

[Blackout]

Jeter gets on base so much more often than Tejada that it makes up for Tejadas power advantage

and Jeters base running is clearly better as well


at this point in time, 2006, I will take Jeter defensively over Tejada as well.

[cardsfanatic]

People need to be careful presenting and interpreting value measures that are compared to average. There's actually a lot of value in just being average, and the majority of major league players are below-average. It's better to use values that compare players to replacement level as the baseline. A simplified, pulled out of my ass example:

Let's say the average full-time shortstop is 40 runs better than replacement. That means Jeter is 78 (38 + 40) runs above replacement and Tejada's at 65 (25 + 40). Jeter's 13 run advantage is now "only" a 20% advantage instead of what looked like a 50% advantage when using average as the baseline.

It's really the absolute differences that matter, anyways. A 13-run hitting advantage translates into a little over a one win advantage.

How do you figure? The measurement stays the same. Replacement level and Average level is the same for all players. Jeter's average and replacement level comparisons are no higher or lower than any one elses. They're the same.

So, if you compare either one it's essentially going to tell you the same thing.

If, say, replacement level batting average for instance is .240, average is .265.

No matter how you slice that with an average or replacement level viewpoint, Jeter is always going to be higher than Tejada, right? Same principle with advanced statistics. A higher number vs average is a higher number vs replacement. So why should it matter if you compare them using Average or Replacement numbers?

To me, being 38 runs better than average is frickin' impressive.

With that said, I gave equal representation to all numbers. WARP is a replacement level stat. BRAA/FRAA are both average level stats. And EQA ia just a raw stat that compares the players productivty per out.

[yankillaz]

I added the poll to the thread, yankillaz.

Thanx... Let's see how this fares.

[trosmok]

Jeter gets on base .....
at this point in time, 2006, I will take Jeter defensively over Tejada as well.

It is double tough for Tejada to both set the table and drive them in, which is what he has to do with Baltimore. Imagine if he had a supporting cast like the Yanks, instead of Hernandez, Markakis, Millar, Roberts, and Patterson. Not slamming those guys, but being supported by all-stars would sure help. I'm curious why you would ever give the defensive nod to Derek; his range is pretty small and his arm isn't exactly .50 caliber. Leadership and hopeless homerism, perhaps?:rolleyes:

[Brooklyn]

Miguel Tejada has more AB's for one thing (all of these stats equalize everything -- each player is compared with the same number of AB's). He's used more of his team's outs (never a good thing) and he has a much lower OBP. Those are key stats that 8 homeruns doesn't coutner. That's all Tejada has on Jeter. 8 homeruns. The 2B are the same, Jeter is a far better base stealer, walks more, grounds in to WAY fewer double plays, hits for a higher average, gets on base far better. I don't see how someone could look at each player's stats and not see that Jeter is far better than Tejada _this_ year. Jeter is better in everything... aside from HR, where Tejada leads him by 8 jacks. There's no way I'd give up a .340 hitter that gets on base 42% of the time for a .325 hitter that gets on base 37% of the time simply because of 8 homeruns. 20-25 more homeruns then we might have a discussion. 8? Nah. In fact, the only guy on this entire list that's done something significantly better than Jeter is Reyes with his stolen bases. But considering Reyes has been caught 23% of the time that's fairly debatable, too. Jeter's 32 SB with a 92% success rate. Myself, personally, would be more inclined to go with Jeter's total (accompanied with that success rate) over 57 swipes with a 77% success rate.

Here's the official definition of EQA accompanied by what goes into it: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=61

Same for BRAA: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=211

Same for FRAA: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=75

And WARP: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=193

thanks for posting this, but the FRAA and WARP don't really dive an insight on how they are calculated

[cardsfanatic]

It is double tough for Tejada to both set the table and drive them in, which is what he has to do with Baltimore. Imagine if he had a supporting cast like the Yanks, instead of Hernandez, Markakis, Millar, Roberts, and Patterson. Not slamming those guys, but being supported by all-stars would sure help. I'm curious why you would ever give the defensive nod to Derek; his range is pretty small and his arm isn't exactly .50 caliber. Leadership and hopeless homerism, perhaps?:rolleyes:

For it to be as easy as everyone thinks it is to hit in the Yankees lineup it sure hasn't proven fruitful for guys who've come to the Yankees in recent years.

WITH YANKEES
SORIANO - .284 avg, .322 OBP, .517 SLG, 20.5 HR/AB
SHEFFIELD - .292 avg, .386 OBP, .519 SLG, 17.9 HR/AB
A-ROD - .290 avg, .379 OBP, .519 SLG, 16.9 HR/AB
GIAMBI - .264 avg, .419 OBP, .540 SLG, 15.1 HR/AB
VENTURA - .244 avg, .360 OBP, .447 SLG, 21.3 HR/AB

WITHOUT YANKEES
SORIANO - .283 avg, .331 OBP, .528 SLG, 16.7 HR/AB
SHEFFIELD - .303 avg, .411 OBP, .539 SLG, 16.1 HR/AB
A-ROD - .319 avg, .391 OBP, .594 SLG, 14.1 HR/AB
GIAMBI - .309 avg, .407 OBP, .546 SLG, 14.7 HR/AB
VENTURA - .271 avg, .364 OBP, .441 SLG, 23.7 HR/AB

[skyking162]

So, if you compare either one it's essentially going to tell you the same thing.

I was mostly just addressing one poster's confusion as to why Jeter appeared to be 50% better than Tejada using BRAA. You can't use ratios when the data is presented in the "above-average" setting. Like you said, Jeter's 13 runs better either way, and that's the best way to look at it. I wasn't trying to knock down your numbers.

I will point out, however, that differences in playing time will have different effects with different baselines. An average player with 100 PAs and an average player with 600 PAs will both come out at 0 runs above average, when they definitely don't have the same value. If you compare them to replacement, the low-PA guy might come out at 5 runs above replacement while the 600 PA guy comes out at 30 runs above replacement level, which is a better reflection of their actual value. It can get wackier, too, when considering players worse than average.

The BRAA numbers aren't wrong or necessarily any worse than BRAR, it's just that people need to be careful when interpreting them. It's not just a number -- it contains meaning, too.

[maximum jack]

For it to be as easy as everyone thinks it is to hit in the Yankees lineup it sure hasn't proven fruitful for guys who've come to the Yankees in recent years.

WITH YANKEES
SORIANO - .284 avg, .322 OBP, .517 SLG, 20.5 HR/AB
SHEFFIELD - .292 avg, .386 OBP, .519 SLG, 17.9 HR/AB
A-ROD - .290 avg, .379 OBP, .519 SLG, 16.9 HR/AB
GIAMBI - .264 avg, .419 OBP, .540 SLG, 15.1 HR/AB
VENTURA - .244 avg, .360 OBP, .447 SLG, 21.3 HR/AB

WITHOUT YANKEES
SORIANO - .283 avg, .331 OBP, .528 SLG, 16.7 HR/AB
SHEFFIELD - .303 avg, .411 OBP, .539 SLG, 16.1 HR/AB
A-ROD - .319 avg, .391 OBP, .594 SLG, 14.1 HR/AB
GIAMBI - .309 avg, .407 OBP, .546 SLG, 14.7 HR/AB
VENTURA - .271 avg, .364 OBP, .441 SLG, 23.7 HR/AB

Are there any players out there who did better with the Yanks?
If so, that might suggest more intangibles: Dealing with media, Dealing with a rabid fanbase, decline of career, better/worse restaurants, traffic, weather, ballpark advantage/disadvantage, humidity, peer relationships, marital relationships, extra-marital relationships, PEDs, PDDs (perfomance detracting drugs), facilities, health . . . ad nauseum.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Is this some kind of joke?
Jeter (or Jesus as I call him) leads the majors in BA w/ RISP, and it looks like he'll win the AL MVP. However Jose Reyes is VERY good.

[cardsfanatic]

Are there any players out there who did better with the Yanks?
If so, that might suggest more intangibles: Dealing with media, Dealing with a rabid fanbase, decline of career, better/worse restaurants, traffic, weather, ballpark advantage/disadvantage, humidity, peer relationships, marital relationships, extra-marital relationships, PEDs, PDDs (perfomance detracting drugs), facilities, health . . . ad nauseum.

I'm sure there's some fringe players who have. Perhaps Miguel Cairo or Aaron Boone? I haven't looked that deep. I just looked at all-star caliber players, really. One guy that does jump out is a Paul O'Neill who, if memory serves, played better in New York than with the Reds. But they weren't the powerhouse (read: slugging machine) Yanks then, either. In 1998, perhaps their best season in this current dynasty, they didn't have a single player with 30+ HR. O'Neill was part of that team. They just killed you with gobs of runners on base and solid contact hitters.

One other thing you have to keep in mind with a guy like O'Neill and his batting average spike is that it just so happened to coincide with the huge offensive spike in baseball. In two years time the league average went from .257 to .273. And it's remained high ever since. Not sure if that's the entire reason for O'Neill's spike in production, although it had to play some part in it. His homerun numbers didn't spike he was roughly a 20 HR guy before and after the move; only his batting average spiked

[Jose Reyes]

Derek Jeter has a .371 average RISP w/2 outs. Jose Reyes is batting .403 in those situations. Reyes is more "clutch." :)

[ChrisLDuncan]

Umm, Jeter's been doing it longer than Reyes, so I dunno if you can compare Jose Reyes to Captian Clutch just yet. However I still maintain that Jose Reyes is a VERY VERY good player, and I agree with you that he deserves MVP consideration.

[EvanAparra]

Derek Jeter has a .371 average RISP w/2 outs. Jose Reyes is batting .403 in those situations. Reyes is more "clutch." :)


Well, when Reyes has some huge hits in the World Series, and great defensive plays in the playoffs, then maybe you can call him clutch. He has done nothing compared to Jeter at this point.

[Jose Reyes]

Well it's not his fault he's 10 years younger than Jeter and has been playing for 10 less years. Remember this thread is about THIS YEAR not past playoff games. Besides I was kinda just joking.

[EvanAparra]

Look at post 3.

[ESPNFan]

Even as a Sox fan I am not so biased as to not snatch up Jeter if I had the chance. As much as I love Tejada I think Jeter is just a bit better suited for a team that already has two sluggers.

BTW getting Jeter would be worth it just for the fact that NY would have a 16 megaton coniption. LOL the fall out for a defection like that would make the Johnny Damon drama look like switching from Sanka to Deep Rich Foldgers Crystals! :D

[Jose Reyes]

Look at post 3.

In that case, Reyes shouldn't even be on the list. This is only his 2nd full season.

[cardsfanatic]

In that case, Reyes shouldn't even be on the list. This is only his 2nd full season.

Don't worry... the thread title says "who is the best SS in 2006." Apparently the question was changed right after I posted. :)

[538280]

Jeter. Setting aside the false assumptions many people have on walks not really having any value (the case for Reyes over Jeter), triple crown stats being the best way to quantify offensive value (Tejada), and BA being by far the best measure of offensive performance (Young), Jeter has had the most valuable and well rounded offensive performance this season. Defensively, I don't think there's that big a difference between any of them with Jeter's improvement.

[Ursa Major]

Oh, just to be ornery, let me throw Omar Vizquel's hat into the ring. He might not ring all your SABR bells, but the guy's non-power numbers from the #2 spot are just about equal to Tejada's (.367 OBP to MT's .380, 88 runs to MT's 96), and is still playing the best shortstop on the planet, something that no one has accused Jeter or Tejada of doing.

As far as intangibles -- what do "better/worse restaurants" have to do with anything? :coffee

[yankillaz]

Umm, Jeter's been doing it longer than Reyes, so I dunno if you can compare Jose Reyes to Captian Clutch just yet. However I still maintain that Jose Reyes is a VERY VERY good player, and I agree with you that he deserves MVP consideration.

Are you sure on this one? THT begs to differ.

[yankillaz]

Jeter. Setting aside the false assumptions many people have on walks not really having any value (the case for Reyes over Jeter), triple crown stats being the best way to quantify offensive value (Tejada), and BA being by far the best measure of offensive performance (Young), Jeter has had the most valuable and well rounded offensive performance this season. Defensively, I don't think there's that big a difference between any of them with Jeter's improvement.

Jeter has been a bit more important than Reyes thus far this season, but i'm really asking who would you pick for the long haul? Determined by his performance so far, and by what he can produce.

[538280]

Jeter has been a bit more important than Reyes thus far this season, but i'm really asking who would you pick for the long haul? Determined by his performance so far, and by what he can produce.

Jeter is the type of player who tends to age quite well, and of course he has the established record of performance. Reyes was a fringe MLB player before this year. While he does have age on his side, I'd go with the guy's who's better now (and likely to be for at least the next three years) and is more predictable in his performance. I'd take Jeter.

[Redfoot]

It is double tough for Tejada to both set the table and drive them in, which is what he has to do with Baltimore. Imagine if he had a supporting cast like the Yanks, instead of Hernandez, Markakis, Millar, Roberts, and Patterson. Not slamming those guys, but being supported by all-stars would sure help. I'm curious why you would ever give the defensive nod to Derek; his range is pretty small and his arm isn't exactly .50 caliber. Leadership and hopeless homerism, perhaps?:rolleyes:

I'm nitpicking, but Jeter has a very strong arm. It seems to me that cardsfanatic is not the "hopeless homer" in this discussion.

[PhilWings24]

if we're talkin 3 years, miguel tejada, easily.

[PhilWings24]

For it to be as easy as everyone thinks it is to hit in the Yankees lineup it sure hasn't proven fruitful for guys who've come to the Yankees in recent years.

WITH YANKEES
SORIANO - .284 avg, .322 OBP, .517 SLG, 20.5 HR/AB
SHEFFIELD - .292 avg, .386 OBP, .519 SLG, 17.9 HR/AB
A-ROD - .290 avg, .379 OBP, .519 SLG, 16.9 HR/AB
GIAMBI - .264 avg, .419 OBP, .540 SLG, 15.1 HR/AB
VENTURA - .244 avg, .360 OBP, .447 SLG, 21.3 HR/AB

WITHOUT YANKEES
SORIANO - .283 avg, .331 OBP, .528 SLG, 16.7 HR/AB
SHEFFIELD - .303 avg, .411 OBP, .539 SLG, 16.1 HR/AB
A-ROD - .319 avg, .391 OBP, .594 SLG, 14.1 HR/AB
GIAMBI - .309 avg, .407 OBP, .546 SLG, 14.7 HR/AB
VENTURA - .271 avg, .364 OBP, .441 SLG, 23.7 HR/AB

to me there's an explanation to each of these, and you don't need to dig too deep to find them.

soriano was entering his prime when he left the yankees, and went to Texas, and extreme hitter's park.

Sheffield is aging and played hurt for much of 2004.

A-Rod spent his prime in Texas, an extreme hitter's park. Also, i think the pre-safeco park was hitter-friendly as well.

Giambi: steroids vs. no steroids.

Ventura was aging when the yankees got him, and aging terribly. his previous two seasons had been very unimpressive.

and also, alot of this is void anyway, because i think most people that say that are speaking specifically about this yankees team (although it can be said about the yankees as an organization for certain. i just don't think thats what people mean).

[Jose Reyes]

Reyes was a 22 year old who had played one full season before this year. He was also one of the top prospects in the Mets system. I wouldn't say he was a "fringe player" before this year.

[soberdennis]

I think the question is pretty obvious. My bad. Take it into the last three to four seasons. Is that i'm tryin to get an honest answer. I pretty much think Tejada grabs this.
Maybe Tejada over the last 4 seasons. But this year I don't think anyone can question the Captain as the top SS.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

As far as top shortstop..... jeter this year has the best bat.... his glove is a joke(im going from what i saw from him the WBC).... wow i thought this is the guy i hear is so great with intangibles and all that stuff, PATHETIC is what i saw in the WBC he missed plays that Greene would have made any day of the week, or Chris Gomez, or Tony Fernandez, or Vizquel, or Izturis etc...

As far as a hitter goes, Jeter is incredible for a shortstop, but as far as playing in the feild, id take at least half the league over him defensivly.

[cardsfanatic]

to me there's an explanation to each of these, and you don't need to dig too deep to find them.

soriano was entering his prime when he left the yankees, and went to Texas, and extreme hitter's park.

Sheffield is aging and played hurt for much of 2004.

A-Rod spent his prime in Texas, an extreme hitter's park. Also, i think the pre-safeco park was hitter-friendly as well.

Giambi: steroids vs. no steroids.

Ventura was aging when the yankees got him, and aging terribly. his previous two seasons had been very unimpressive.

and also, alot of this is void anyway, because i think most people that say that are speaking specifically about this yankees team (although it can be said about the yankees as an organization for certain. i just don't think thats what people mean).

Heh, well, you're correct on most of those fronjts and don't think I didn't consider those when I posted this. _However_, that being stated, if it's so easy to hit in the New York Yankee lineup then why is it not quantifable by any statistic?

Now, I did say most.

A-Rod wasn't in his prime when he joined the Yankees? You must have a different definition of "peak", because the typical peak years are 28-32. A-Rod was 28 when he joined the Yankees and he's 30 right now.

The other one is Giambi. Steroids are typically associated with power numbers, no? Well, his power numbers are still there. His average is what has been crushed since joining the Yankees. Which is really odd when you consider Yankee Stadium is more hitter friendly than Oakland-Alameda (or whatever they call it these days.)

I've never bought into that "the lineup your in makes you a better hitter." A .300 hitter is a .300 hitter is a .300 hitter. It's not like they're _letting_ Jeter get hits or _letting_ him get on base. Or any player, for that matter. Their objective is still to get him out, right? So he earns his stats just like anyone else.

Now, a few counting stats are entirely team dependent and I'll agree 100% there. Runs scored, RBI, Wins and Losses are all pretty team dependent stats. Which is why I don't think those stats are truly a good measurement of how good a player is.

I mean, if 100 RBI's means your a good player then someone should give Ruben Sierra his All-Star nomination he was robbed of in 1993.

[Seattle1]

Looking at it objectively, I would probably have to go with Yuniesky Betancourt. He's very consistent on offense, and great on defense. Plus he loves to play the game. He's so happy he didn't drown on the boat to America and now he's here playing his favorite sport professionally!