Big Papi For Mvp!!!!!!

[minivin5]

BIG PAPI HITS 52 HOMERS!!!!!!!!!!!A franchise record 52 homers in one season along with a shut out by Becket and hitting # 51 off santana HA HA I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!!:laugh :laugh

[geezer]

And just hitting 52 homers will automatically give him and MVP award, yeah right. Boston is not going for the playoffs, and it's a miracle if Big Papi finishes 4th in the MVP race.

[EvanAparra]

So then Dye is out of the race as well?

Or if somehow the twins dont make it, Mauer, Morneau, and Santana are out?

[Blackout]

i dont care if papi hits 5200 home runs, MVP's don't cry over how they deserve the mvp

[EvanAparra]

So if a guy hits .400/.525/.700, and one day says "i think i deserve the MVP, not so-and-so"... he shouldnt get it? Thats pretty far fetched.

[geezer]

i dont care if papi hits 5200 home runs, MVP's don't cry over how they deserve the mvp

They should cry on how they are not in the playoff hunt better.

[EvanAparra]

I always thought the MVP was decided on the field, not in the press room.

[YankeeDJW]

He'll probably get some votes but I really don't think he'll get it. There are so many other candidates who are actually involved in tight races. Also, like it or not, being a DH will definately hurt his cause, when most of the other candidates play a position.

[EvanAparra]

I agree with you there. DH will hurt his case, the sox being out of it will as well (although i dont agree on that). He wont win. But the only position players i see that should actually be helped by the position they play is Jeter and Mauer. Two most important fielding spots.

[ESPNFan]

A-Rod won with Last place Texas so please drop the moronic playoff qualifications. As far as I'm concerned the Writers pull these pseudo rules out of their asses when ever they feel like it to support their arguments. Pedro was Robbed of the MVP because a Voting member of the Press who cast an MVP vote for David Wells left him off the ballot, claiming Pitchers don't qualify for the MVP.

I'm sorry but any press related Voting boilsdown to something between a Highschool student council election and American Idol Voting.

[SamtheBravesFan]

A-Rod won with Last place Texas so please drop the moronic playoff qualifications. As far as I'm concerned the Writers pull these pseudo rules out of their asses when ever they feel like it to support their arguments. Pedro was Robbed of the MVP because a Voting member of the Press who cast an MVP vote for David Wells left him off the ballot, claiming Pitchers don't qualify for the MVP.

I'm sorry but any press related Voting boilsdown to something between a Highschool student council election and American Idol Voting.

Hear hear.

[Blackout]

So if a guy hits .400/.525/.700, and one day says "i think i deserve the MVP, not so-and-so"... he shouldnt get it? Thats pretty far fetched.

did this guy's team finish 10 games behind in the division?

[EvanAparra]

So now you are changing your reason?

So its about making the playoffs?

So if the Yankees had missed the playoffs this year, you wouldnt be going for Jeter?

[Brian McKenna]

Yeah, another home run achievement during the biggest offensive era in the history of the sport. :clapping

Let's all bow our heads and worship at the feet of the home run gods.

I'd rather give the award to a pitcher who has to navigate a tiny strike zone, body armor, enhanced muscles, admonishments against pitching inside, corked bats, jackrabbitt ball and a host of other challenges in the 21st century.

Give it to a DH? Come on!

[EvanAparra]

Well what does all that have to do with a DH? You pretty much said that it would be stupid to give it to anyone BUT a pitcher. Is that what you think or did i misinterpret it?

[Brian McKenna]

Well what does all that have to do with a DH? You pretty much said that it would be stupid to give it to anyone BUT a pitcher. Is that what you think or did i misinterpret it?

That's what I was thinking a 3:24 am on 9/22/2006.

Just like your's and everyone else's, posts are often reactionary, one-sided, argumentative, subjective and represent part of the story in the Current Events forum.

Did you expect a complete dissertation on the history of MVP voting, the DH, on-the-field production in 2006, the media and baseball politics?

It is easy for someone to end every sentence in a question mark (as I see in this thread). Opinions, facts, data or related information are worth sharing as well. I understand it might spark someone to put up a question mark or two, but someone has to bring more to the table than that. That is why a general topic (thread) is built on many ideas (posts). At times we all put ideas out there and at other times we just sit back, chuckle, question everyone else and somehow feel superior. Or did I misinterpret?

[VTSoxFan]

Will you give minivin5 a break for posting in sheer exuberance? Criminy. Everyone knows Ortiz isn't going to win MVP, and as my friend Trosmok once said anyway, postseason awards are just a dog-and-pony show anyway. It's not the Nobel Prize.

Ortiz has been indescribably valuable to the Red Sox. Is he more valuable to the Sox than Santana is to the Twins, or Jeter to the Yanks? How can one make comparisons? It is very much like a dog show. Is this St. Bernard more of a St Bernard than that poodle is a poodle?

The DH is a fact of baseball. When considering the AL MVP one has to take that into consideration. Traditionalists may tear their hair over it, but the DH has been here for 30 years, and if a DH happens to be the backbone, heart and soul of a team, well, his value must added to the ballot.

Of course he won't win. But that doesn't diminish his value to Sox fans, who, without him and his new club record, would have precious little reason to pay any attention to the last month of the season.

BTW, the piece where he purportedly dissed Jeter? Written by a Boston scribe with a history of spinning, twisting and re-interpreting hometown players' words till they fit his perception of that the players ought to have said. Typical Boston sports media; when the season turns sour they begin to eat their own. Don't believe him if he says the sun rises in the east.

[EvanAparra]

Nevermind, a genuine question gone to waste..

[cardsfanatic]

So then Dye is out of the race as well?

Or if somehow the twins dont make it, Mauer, Morneau, and Santana are out?

I agree with this statement more or less. However, you have to keep in mind that Ortiz just went on record with the media a week ago crying "ME! ME! ME!" and blasting fan favorite Derek Jeter. That was more or lass MVP-suicide. I can't see him winning the award now. Although Mauer, Morneau and Jeter are all even money IMO.

[W_Marone]

Here's the thing, why when it comes to beltran in the NL do we rule him out becuase of the guys around him, why shouldnt it be the same with Jeter? Look at that lineup around him, even without Matsui and Sheffield for most of the season? Just curious really. I'd say Morneau would be my choice for MVP.

I would also like to add Frank Thomas to the possible MVP Canidates.

[EvanAparra]

Beltran shouldnt be ruled out at all.

[Williamsburg2599]

did this guy's team finish 10 games behind in the division?
If a guy hits .400, his team could be 160 games out and it shouldn't matter, unless someone else is hitting higher, or has 60+ homers or something like that. Your BA can be 1.000 and your team can still never win a game. Saying a guy can't win MVP because his team isin't in the playoffs is pretty crazy when a) baseball is a team sport and b) your stats can be perfect and your team can still never win a game, and IMO is just something Yankee fans make up to keep Ortiz out of the MVP race. I'm sure if the Yankees were 10 games back you would be arguing for Ortiz.:rolleyes: How many games has Big Papi SINGLE HANDELY won for the Sox this year? thats a pretty VALUBLE player right there.

[Edgartohof]

baseball is a team sport
[.....]
How many games has Big Papi SINGLE HANDELY won for the Sox this year?

just thought I would put these closer together for you.

[Blackout]

If a guy hits .400, his team could be 160 games out and it shouldn't matter, unless someone else is hitting higher, or has 60+ homers or something like that. Your BA can be 1.000 and your team can still never win a game. Saying a guy can't win MVP because his team isin't in the playoffs is pretty crazy when a) baseball is a team sport and b) your stats can be perfect and your team can still never win a game, and IMO is just something Yankee fans make up to keep Ortiz out of the MVP race. I'm sure if the Yankees were 10 games back you would be arguing for Ortiz.:rolleyes: How many games has Big Papi SINGLE HANDELY won for the Sox this year? thats a pretty VALUBLE player right there.

yeah, MVPs can go to guys on losing teams if they have historic seasons (a la last place A-rod hitting 47 home runs from the shortstop position in 2002), but Ortiz's numbers aren't that much more "dominating" than a number of players in the league (Hafner, Dye, Morneau, Thome, Thomas, Giambi*, Manny etc., and I'll throw in Howard, Pujols and Miggy Cabrera for kicks even though they don't matter since they're NL)

game winning hits are thrilling, but in terms of value to the team I don't think anyone is going to say they'd rather have Aaron Boone than Alex Rodriguez

[Charger567]

I agree with this statement more or less. However, you have to keep in mind that Ortiz just went on record with the media a week ago crying "ME! ME! ME!" and blasting fan favorite Derek Jeter. That was more or lass MVP-suicide. I can't see him winning the award now. Although Mauer, Morneau and Jeter are all even money IMO.

That is so stupid.. Everyone is obsessing over how Ortiz screwed up that interview..

"Don't get me wrong -- he's a great player, having a great season, but he's got a lot of guys in that lineup,"

"Top to bottom, you've got a guy who can hurt you. Come hit in this lineup, see how good you can be."

Oh yeah, Ortiz sure dissed him up good.. That quote is just screaming "ME ME ME"

The press will make any small mistake a player makes in an interview and turn it into "ORTIZ DISSES JETER"

Honestly, what kind of a fool would judge an MVP Candidate by his interviewing skills?

[W_Marone]

I'm not sure what Ortiz said blasting Jeter, I remember some statment of him getting more publicity playing in NYC but, I also remember him retracting his statement almost a second after he said it. David Ortiz is probably one of the nicest guys in the league.

[JordanDL3891]

ok bottom line, MVP means most valuable right?

also, it means the BEST player overall, who is the best, who can do it all, thats the MVP.


Jeter - Great def, good speed, great avg, ok power, great team motivatior

Ortiz - DH (no def), crap speed, avg good (I think), great power, I dono how good he is to the team when it comes to motivation. though the fans love him.



Jeter is better all around, I do belive he is the AL MVP this year.

now now about Cano for 2B batting champ?

[W_Marone]

ok bottom line, MVP means most valuable right?

also, it means the BEST player overall, who is the best, who can do it all, thats the MVP.


Jeter - Great def, good speed, great avg, ok power, great team motivatior

Ortiz - DH (no def), crap speed, avg good (I think), great power, I dono how good he is to the team when it comes to motivation. though the fans love him.



Jeter is better all around, I do belive he is the AL MVP this year.

now now about Cano for 2B batting champ?


Big Papi is the leader of that team, do I think he's the MVP, no, not particularly, but he does motivate that clubhouse. But, Jeter is a leader too, no question about it, but look at the lineup he has around him too, i guess same could be said about Ortiz too. I'd say Morneau.

[Charger567]

Well guess what? Someone has to be DH, and if the greatest clutch hitter in baseball is in that spot, I am still gonna take 'em.

[W_Marone]

Not sure what that does to support his MVP status, hey, why not play him a little at first now, since the Sox currently have no firstbaseman, unless you count loretta.

[538280]

I was pretty hard on Ryan Howard on the other thread-Ortiz is a much worse candidate than he is. Not even close. I've shown this a number of times.

[EvanAparra]

Chris, the MVP isnt ALL about stats. Choices in the past have shown this.

And usually when it is, its about the triple crown categories. Stupid, i know, but its just the way it is.

[Skin & Bones]

Chris, the MVP isnt ALL about stats. Choices in the past have shown this.

And usually when it is, its about the triple crown categories. Stupid, i know, but its just the way it is.

But it should be about the player whose the most valuable. Not because his Batting average, homeruns, and RBI'S look gaudy.

[EvanAparra]

Of course. Even then, its not all about stats. Being valuable isnt only your VORP being high, and other high advanced stats like that.

[Skin & Bones]

Of course. Even then, its not all about stats. Being valuable isnt only your VORP being high, and other high advanced stats like that.

I agree to a certain extent. I HATE when people go around listing stats to prove everything. And I'm just as much of a " stat guy " as anyone on this planet. However, stats are certainly a hell of a lot more reliable than subjective opinions. And VORP ? bad stat.

[W_Marone]

To be honest, I dont know what any of that stat stuff means, as far as Warp and vorp, and all tha jazz.

[Skin & Bones]

To be honest, I dont know what any of that stat stuff means, as far as Warp and vorp, and all tha jazz.

VORP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_over_replacement_player

I know how it's calculated, and I'm not really fond of it.

WARP3: Don't know how it's calculated. That's why I put very little stock in it. Some of it's rankings of players do make sense, but I can't put faith into a stat that's formula is anonymous.

[EvanAparra]

No one really does, BP doesnt even tell you how its calculated. (warp) I like to look at those stats sometimes, but putting stock in something thats not explained can get to me after a while.

How do you know VORP?

[Skin & Bones]

No one really does, BP doesnt even tell you how its calculated. (warp) I like to look at those stats sometimes, but putting stock in something thats not explained can get to me after a while.

How do you know VORP?

Link above.

[Skin & Bones]

Better link.

http://www.stathead.com/bbeng/woolner/vorpdescnew.htm

[EvanAparra]

Thanks. :)

[538280]

Chris, the MVP isnt ALL about stats. Choices in the past have shown this.

And usually when it is, its about the triple crown categories. Stupid, i know, but its just the way it is.

This is true. But I watch Ortiz play quite often. He does seem, subjectively, to always come through when it is most needed. However, this is not something that I'm one to put a huge amount of stock in, and he is legitimately just awful in all areas but the batter's box. As far as value outside the numbers, Ortiz is no Jeter.

[538280]

WARP3: Don't know how it's calculated. That's why I put very little stock in it. Some of it's rankings of players do make sense, but I can't put faith into a stat that's formula is anonymous.

Yeah, I've been saying that for a long time.

[EvanAparra]

Well, what else is he awful in??? He doesnt do much other than chill in the batters box. And hes one of the best in the business at that. His baserunning is bad, but i like it better when hes just trotting around them :)

[Dasperp]

Also, BP's defensive metrics kind of suck, so that throws WARP all out of wack.

[cardsfanatic]

I agree to a certain extent. I HATE when people go around listing stats to prove everything. And I'm just as much of a " stat guy " as anyone on this planet. However, stats are certainly a hell of a lot more reliable than subjective opinions. And VORP ? bad stat.

What is bad about VORP? Care to say why it's bad?

[EdmondsFan#1]

I think it's funny how many people think Santana has a chance.

Cy Young was made for the pitchers, not the MVP award. Pitchers in the starting rotation only get to pitch once every five games. So they only get to help their team win ONE game every five. And sometimes they don't win anyway.

I think Jeter will win it, it seems like everyone outside of New York hates Yankees, but Jeter is a very respectable player. Some people think he comes off as a little cocky, but i don't think he is. He is a great hitter, has a great arm, and is a great shortstop. If Jeter doesn't make then i think Jermaine deserves it, so many great catches.... Something statistics can't show.

[EvanAparra]

I think its funny that you ignore the fact that other pitchers have won the award. Willie Hernandez, Dennis Eckersley, Rollie Fingers, Vida Blue, Bob Gibson, Denny McLain, Sandy Koufax, Don Newcombe, Bobby Shantz, Hal Newhouser, Spud Chandler, Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbel, Dizzy Dean, Bucky Walters, Mort Cooper, Jim Constanty, Roger Clemens.

So, if a pitcher only wins once every five games, a player wins every game? Position Players dont have the same impact as a pitcher when they are both in the game, and when the pitcher is sitting and player is out there, said player isnt always out there winning the game, no matter who you are.

Great catches shouldnt mean the MVP, and they are shown, in range stats ad such.

[HHReloaded]

Well guess what? Someone has to be DH, and if the greatest clutch hitter in baseball is in that spot, I am still gonna take 'em.

His 'clutch' numbers aren't any more impressive than his normal numbers.

....your eyes are lying to you

[EvanAparra]

No theyre really not, 5 game winning hits this year. I think 3 were HRs. 13 since hes become a red sox. 2 walk offs in the ALCS to escape elimination and then to go on to win the WS for the first time in 86 years. Yeah, those numbers dont lie. That just impressive.

[HHReloaded]

He was put in good situations, and he's a good hitter.

I don't believe that he has some inate ability to hit better when the game is on the line.

[maximum jack]

I think it's funny how many people think Santana has a chance.

Cy Young was made for the pitchers, not the MVP award. Pitchers in the starting rotation only get to pitch once every five games. So they only get to help their team win ONE game every five. And sometimes they don't win anyway.

So when a pitcher throws a complete game shutout, and gives the bullpen a day off-- that doesn't help the club over the next few days? By your logic, pitchers should only merit 1/5 of "regular" player's salary. What's Mariano's worth? 1/20?

[Charger567]

His 'clutch' numbers aren't any more impressive than his normal numbers.

....your eyes are lying to you

They aren't lying to me.. His normal numbers are impressive enough.

[Skin & Bones]

What is bad about VORP? Care to say why it's bad?

VORP doesn't describe what a player did to create wins or runs. It's basically used for quick positional comparisons. I shouldn't have called it " bad " though, I just personally don't like it.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

Absolutely give it to him.... deserves far more than all this Derek Jeter BS going around.

[EvanAparra]

I don't believe that he has some inate ability to hit better when the game is on the line.

:rolleyes: I will send you my 2004 post-season DVD collection.

[Twinfan90]

Nah, I think Morneau deserves it. Ortiz has great numbers, but without Morneau, the Twins would be nowhere near where they are right now.

[EvanAparra]

Nah, I think Morneau deserves it. Ortiz has great numbers, but without Morneau, the Twins would be nowhere near where they are right now.

Way to through everyone else on that team under a bus.

[skyking162]

Nah, I think Morneau deserves it. Ortiz has great numbers, but without Morneau, the Twins would be nowhere near where they are right now.

Without Santana, the Twins would be nowhere near where they are now. Without Mauer, the Twins would be nowhere near where they are now. Depending on your definition of "near", you could also include Nathan, Cuddyer, Punto, and Bartlett in that sentence.

Without Derek Jeter, the Yankees would be nowhere near where they are now.

Without Grady Sizemore, the Indians would be nowhere near where they are now.

This is all my sarcastic way of asking a serious question: What do you feel is valuable about "not being near where they are now"? Are you picking the best player on a team that's squeaking into a playoff spot? Something else?

[EvanAparra]

Are you picking the best player on a team that's squeaking into a playoff spot? Something else?

I think you pretty much nailed it.