Video lesson

[jbooth]

Below is a link to a VERY LARGE .mpg file on my website (72 meg).

It is a video I made in response to a pro player who asked me to help him out of a slump. The video has audio and I describe how the upper body moves.

If you have the disk space and a high-speed internet connection and/or a lot of patience; view it and let's discuss it. A picture is worth a 1,000 words and I think it would clear up a lot of misunderstandings and confusion if you watch this video and then we discuss.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/help0806.mpg

[Maxx]

Jim, thanks so much for the clip. It really clarifies for me what should be occurring with respect to "the box." It also provides some really simple cues that I can use with my athletes. Got anything else? ;)

[bbjunkie]

jbooth, thanks for posting the vid. You're braver than I. My comment is that you appear to be losing your tilt as you rotate. You appear to be approaching my age, so I can relate. It feels awkward to maintain a tilt through the rotation. I think that's the most difficult part, even for kids.

When you set the tee at the high pitch level, your rotation looked much more natural as there isn't much tilt to maintain. Otherwise, you seem to be raising your front shoulder as opposed to rotating around your spine. When I load I find that my back shoulder is higher than my front shoulder and as I rotate the front shoulder comes up and the back shoulder goes down (hips do the same thing). I think that's what I've seen in Steve's swings also.

BTW, what software do you use to upload vids? I've been to lazy to actually figure out how to do that stuff, but I feel like its about time.

I just read Deezledog's comment. I agree about the box, good demonstration.

[jbooth]

jbooth, thanks for posting the vid. You're braver than I. My comment is that you appear to be losing your tilt as you rotate. You appear to be approaching my age, so I can relate. It feels awkward to maintain a tilt through the rotation. I think that's the most difficult part, even for kids.

When you set the tee at the high pitch level, your rotation looked much more natural as there isn't much tilt to maintain. Otherwise, you seem to be raising your front shoulder as opposed to rotating around your spine. When I load I find that my back shoulder is higher than my front shoulder and as I rotate the front shoulder comes up and the back shoulder goes down (hips do the same thing). I think that's what I've seen in Steve's swings also.

BTW, what software do you use to upload vids? I've been to lazy to actually figure out how to do that stuff, but I feel like its about time.

I just read Deezledog's comment. I agree about the box, good demonstration.

I don't see what you see. But, that's OK. I think my tilt is maintained and the bat is rotating perpendicular. Maybe it is an optical illusion from video, but the swings look fine to me. Besides, I was moving in slow motion to make a point, and you seem to be looking at aspects that are not the main topic of the video.

Below is video of HR's by MLB players. Remember my camera was at waist height and the TV centerfield camera is 20 feet up, so the way the shoulder looks is affected by camera angle, but even so, the MLB hitter's shoulder appears to go up.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bbtn080706TouchEmAll.mpg (7 meg)

[fungo22]

It's another way to explain, perhaps even cue (if it helps someone), that the swing path is in the same (or nearly the same) plane as the shoulder rotation.

I'm still waiting for your response to the rotation "from the middle" issue.

[jbooth]

It's another way to explain, perhaps even cue (if it helps someone), that the swing path is in the same (or nearly the same) plane as the shoulder rotation.

That's correct, but a video is easier to teach with than just words, don't you agree?

I'm still waiting for your response to the rotation "from the middle" issue.

I responded in the synching upper and lower body thread.

[jbooth]

Jim, thanks so much for the clip. It really clarifies for me what should be occurring with respect to "the box." It also provides some really simple cues that I can use with my athletes. Got anything else? ;)

How about this, to show that you don't need to do anything with your arms, in order to get the bat to the ball. This .mpg is small (521kb)

Just turn the box;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/pvcbox.mpg

[Diesel]

"Just turn the Box" Is this hitting aid on the market? or something that you have made? I coach a young age group, this tool would be very helpful.

[wogdoggy]

"Just turn the Box" Is this hitting aid on the market? or something that you have made? I coach a young age group, this tool would be very helpful.



a lil different theory than arm action is the king....

[jbooth]

"Just turn the Box" Is this hitting aid on the market? or something that you have made? I coach a young age group, this tool would be very helpful.

I made it. It's just plastic PVC pipe with elbow joints, and I drilled a hole in one corner and insert a bolt through the box and the "bat".

In a "real" swing, your hands hold the bat at the 90 degree angle as the swing begins. Some people call this top hand torque, but the hands aren't actually torqing the bat, they are holding the angle which causes forces to be applied to the bat as the box turns. Without applying force at the hands, to hold the angle, the bathead will lag behind and not start moving with the box. If you actually apply torque, the bathead will move ahead of the box.

The bathead will whip around by itself, but in a "real" swing; MLB pros apply torque with their hands, to throw the bathead, but this torqing force isn't applied until the chest is almost facing the pitcher, and the hands are starting to move around the body.

So, what I'm saying is; there IS top-hand-torque, but that is a horrible way to describe it, and there IS hand/wrist use to add acceleration of the bathead, but it isn't applied until the bat is almost at ball-contact.

Basically, you keep your hands back and the force from them, firm (not tight or loose), until the hips and shoulders are well into rotation and just before contact, if you can do it; you add some hand action to get the final "pop" into the ball.

There really is no separate pull with the front arm, or push from the back arm. The muscles in the elbow and shoulder area simply contract or firm up to hold the shape of the box. The front and back arms are essentially working simultaneously, to hold the hands back at the shoulder. The hands are not being moved by the arms. The hands are moving with the box, which is actually being moved by the muscles in the torso that move the shoulders.

So, your torso muscles are what actually move the hands. Or, IOW the hands move as part of the overall rotation of the body. The hips rotate, the shoulders rotate, and the hands follow. The hands apply force initially to make sure the bathead doesn't lag and to maintain he hand/front arm angle, and again, just before contact, to add a bit more force to accelerate the bathead.

When you get good at it, you can simplify the swing by just thinking; "keep the hands back and turn the hips and then the shoulders."

You need to have balance and posture, and you have to know how to apply the force from the legs, and how to apply the force without losing posture, but basically, it's hands back and rotate. Easier said than done. :D

[fungo22]

That's correct, but a video is easier to teach with than just words, don't you agree? You bet. How about showing us a video demonstrating high-level rotation with the legs.

[Diesel]

Would it be possible to send me the "specs" on this?
What size pipe, how large to make, ect...

[cartersball]

Would it be possible to send me the "specs" on this?
What size pipe, how large to make, ect...

Ditto on that Jim. I have seen the PVC box video before on here and I must say I really think it could help some of my players.

Drew

[jbooth]

Ditto on that Jim. I have seen the PVC box video before on here and I must say I really think it could help some of my players.

Drew

Gee, I didn't think it was that hot. Do you guys think I should manufacture and sell it? How much do you think people would pay for it?

I would "spruce" it up a bit before I put it on the market.

[swingbuster]

Patents, lawyers, liability insurance, wholesellers, box design, freight, book keepers website marketing cost........ keep your day job !!:crazy

[Chris O'Leary]

How about this, to show that you don't need to do anything with your arms, in order to get the bat to the ball. This .mpg is small (521kb)

Just turn the box;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/pvcbox.mpg

Cool video. Thanks.

I do think your gadget is a better explanatory tool than Mankin's pathfinder bat.

As an aside, I've also had fun with PVC building things to help me teach pitching, that people have (to my surprise) expressed an interest in buying, and could give you some advice on how to progress.

One quick question.

I don't know if this is relevant or just an artifact of the mechanism, but notice that the bat doesn't fly out until the shoulders start to stop rotating. This is caused by the conservation of momentum and causes the energy of the large rotating body (the body) to be funnelled into the smaller rotating body (the bat). This boosts the batspeed.

The same thing happens when a pitcher throws the ball; their elbow rapidly extends 90 degrees as their shoulders start to stop rotating.

It would seem that the point at which the shoulders start to stop rotating, and that the bat starts to fly out, would be relevant to how well you hit the ball. For example, if you rotate your shoulders too much, then the whip of the bat will happen too late and you won't get the best angle between the bat and the ball at the point of contact.

[cartersball]

Gee, I didn't think it was that hot. Do you guys think I should manufacture and sell it? How much do you think people would pay for it?

I would "spruce" it up a bit before I put it on the market.

If you could talk Jeter into using this instead of his Zip N' Hit you might get $50 a piece out of it.:D Seriously, I think it would be a helpful teaching aid. Right now I am trying to accomplish the somewhat the same thing with this bat behind the back drill.

http://images.filecloud.com/261732/100_0576.mov.GIF
http://images1.filecloud.com/261733/100_0577.mov.GIF

But as you can see (besides the fact my son is still learning)this doesn't help with setting up the box. I think your little aid would be more beneficial.

[Chris O'Leary]

Right now I am trying to accomplish the somewhat the same thing with this bat behind the back drill.

Two basic questions about the bat behind the back drill...

1. What is it supposed to accomplish? What is the logic behind it? I've always been kind of hazy on this.

2. Does it actually accomplish anything (other than working the muscles that rotate the torso)?

[jojab]

As an aside, I've also had fun with PVC building things to help me teach pitching...

Do you have any pictures? If not, how about a few descriptions?

[Chris O'Leary]

Do you have any pictures? If not, how about a few descriptions?

The thing that got me started on this was that the holes in many existing pitching targets are not sized realistically (they are usually too small).

I initially built this gadget to teach my batters about how big the strike zone is (the hole in the middle is 21 by 30-ish inches).

I then realized that I could use it to teach my pitchers how to throw to different spots in the strike zone. The black thing hanging down is the target that they throw at. We play a darts-like game in which a strike is worth 1 point and hitting the target is worth 3 points.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/images/PitchingAid_001.jpg

I think it has helped my son's control and location.

Some months after coming up with the idea, I found out that the Dodgers had the same idea back in the 50s. In Dodgertown they played something called the Strings Game.

http://www.walteromalley.com/images/phot/gallery/wfom_dodgertown_strings.jpg

If I end up selling it, I'll probably have to build it out of ABS (which is more impact-resistant).

[tom.guerry]

Jim-

I would say the way you demonstrate this there is too much lack of segmented rotation/cusp/whatever you want to call it. The old fashioned description might be shoulder "flying open". You stand up/lose sit/don't maintain torso/spine angle.

You describe the "drop and tilt" or hips or shoulder phase as followed by "elbow goes to shoulder". Actually what I like to see is the shoulders tilting in a different plane from the hips which finishes resisting/creates a last quick stretch of TORSO (torso as distinc tfrom shoulders). In this case, the elbow does not go to shoulder.

When the shoulders "tilt" this way, the body needs to still be sitting and the spine angle/torso tilt stays about the same. In your case when you turn the box too much together, the elbows DO "go to the shoulder". This is different from "working the front elbow up with the drop and tilt" to continue stretching/avoiding flying open.

Once the unloading then starts at end of drop and tilt, the spine angle stays the same and the hips can turn and go "UP" and the hands can/do "follow the elbow".

So,when you say:

hips,elbow,hands,bat, or

shoulder,elbow, hands, bat

I would say :

hips and shoulders = drop and tilt = initiate hips from front synched with shoulder tilt while you continue to sit and maintain spine angle which means you are still coiling to then get a quick uncoiling with

elbow

hands

bat.

This should not have the appearance of standing up or flying open.

[jbooth]

If you could talk Jeter into using this instead of his Zip N' Hit you might get $50 a piece out of it.:D Seriously, I think it would be a helpful teaching aid. Right now I am trying to accomplish the somewhat the same thing with this bat behind the back drill.

http://images.filecloud.com/261732/100_0576.mov.GIF
http://images1.filecloud.com/261733/100_0577.mov.GIF

But as you can see (besides the fact my son is still learning)this doesn't help with setting up the box. I think your little aid would be more beneficial.

That drill might give him the concept of rotation, but it doesn't do it very well. He has nothing to aim at. Set a tee at waist height and have him do what he is doing, but teach him to maintain a perfectly steady head and to rotate the bat at the top of the tee.

With what he is doing in your video, he isn't learning to keep his head still and rotate on a set axis, and he isn't learning that the tilt and shoulder angle get him to his target. And, he is rotating the hips and shoulders simultaneously, rather than turning the hips, and then the shoulders.

[jbooth]

Two basic questions about the bat behind the back drill...

1. What is it supposed to accomplish? What is the logic behind it? I've always been kind of hazy on this.

2. Does it actually accomplish anything (other than working the muscles that rotate the torso)?

It's close to useless, IMO, if you do it like Cartersball's son is doing it. Doing it like that, helps get the feel of the body rotating rather than sliding from back to front, and they might learn how the legs need to move to stay balanced, but it isn't the best way to teach rotation.

[Jake Patterson]

That drill might give him the concept of rotation, but it doesn't do it very well. He has nothing to aim at. Set a tee at waist height and have him do what he is doing, but teach him to maintain a perfectly steady head and to rotate the bat at the top of the tee.

With what he is doing in your video, he isn't learning to keep his head still and rotate on a set axis, and he isn't learning that the tilt and shoulder angle get him to his target.

I'd can the bat and have him cross his arms in front or put the bat in the front under crossed arms. The problem with the bat behind his back he is using a muscle set that he wouldn't be using when he actually hits, especially with his hands up and behind.

With young kids I use the same drill with the bat under the arms crossed in front with the head of the bat extended more to his hitting side (You can also use a hitting stick). You can set the tee high and in to give them a target to rotate the head of the bat to. Make sense?

[jbooth]

I'd can the bat and have him cross his arms in front or put the bat in the front under crossed arms. The problem with the bat behind his back he is using a muscle set that he wouldn't be using when he actually hits, especially with his hands up and behind.

With young kids I use the same drill with the bat under the arms crossed in front with the head of the bat extended more to his hitting side (You can also use a hitting stick). You can set the tee high and in to give them a target to rotate the head of the bat to. Make sense?

Yep, I do a similar drill. Bat in front is better.

[jbooth]

Jim-

I would say the way you demonstrate this there is too much lack of segmented rotation/cusp/whatever you want to call it. The old fashioned description might be shoulder "flying open". You stand up/lose sit/don't maintain torso/spine angle.

You describe the "drop and tilt" or hips or shoulder phase as followed by "elbow goes to shoulder". Actually what I like to see is the shoulders tilting in a different plane from the hips which finishes resisting/creates a last quick stretch of TORSO (torso as distinc tfrom shoulders). In this case, the elbow does not go to shoulder.

When the shoulders "tilt" this way, the body needs to still be sitting and the spine angle/torso tilt stays about the same. In your case when you turn the box too much together, the elbows DO "go to the shoulder". This is different from "working the front elbow up with the drop and tilt" to continue stretching/avoiding flying open.

Once the unloading then starts at end of drop and tilt, the spine angle stays the same and the hips can turn and go "UP" and the hands can/do "follow the elbow".

So,when you say:

hips,elbow,hands,bat, or

shoulder,elbow, hands, bat

I would say :

hips and shoulders = drop and tilt = initiate hips from front synched with shoulder tilt while you continue to sit and maintain spine angle which means you are still coiling to then get a quick uncoiling with

elbow

hands

bat.

This should not have the appearance of standing up or flying open.

I disagree with pretty much all of what you said, and what you did say, was difficult to understand. Whether you are right or wrong, you still have to communicate, and you just don't do that very well. It's hard to grasp what you even mean, whether I agree with you or not. I think I know what you meant, but it was hard to discern. After reading over and over I finally decided I disagree.

[cartersball]

Two basic questions about the bat behind the back drill...

1. What is it supposed to accomplish? What is the logic behind it? I've always been kind of hazy on this.

2. Does it actually accomplish anything (other than working the muscles that rotate the torso)?

That drill might give him the concept of rotation, but it doesn't do it very well. He has nothing to aim at. Set a tee at waist height and have him do what he is doing, but teach him to maintain a perfectly steady head and to rotate the bat at the top of the tee.

Originally, I saw this drill done with the bat at the lower back area and the arms wrapped around it there. It was being used to help teach rotation with the cue being "Squish the bug" with the back foot. After briefly studying some of the PCR talk here I dedcided to copycat this drill but change the bat position, for the purpose of showing the tilt.

Jim,
We usually do this drill with a tee and I try to stress some of the points you made in your posts. Posting these GIFs this afternoon was done in the spur of the moment. He was just begining to get dressed for baseball practice when I pushed him onto the porch and told him to let me get some quick video. He wasn't too happy about it either.:laugh The point I was trying to make is that your PVC box would allow him to also set his box and learn how to maintain it, all while still enforcing the tilt and rotation. Like Jake said he is using a completely different set of muscles to do this drill.


Jake,
I think I understand what you are saying, but a photo or vid cap would be great.
Drew

[tom.guerry]

Jim-

Thanks for making the effort.

[Ursa Major]

Drew, this drill is generally used solely to get kids used to rotating aggressively and to get their arms momentarily out of the swing/rotation process. It may help with posture, but probably not.

A more productive modification of this drill is to use a longer stick -- like a broom stick -- and then use a tee as you suggest, with a wiffle ball. The stick can be in front (better) or behind the kid. Here's sorta what your boy would look like doing it.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/DrakeCarter.BTBannot.gif

The stick can only meet the ball if the kid has the right posture, and it also forces the kid to keep his head in to hit the ball. In your case, the youngster has pulled his head away throughout the swing. You can also try to work on lower body mechanics to the extent the kid is ready for them.

[TigersFanB406]

UM wouldn't that drill tear a shouler muscle or something? Or at least give a kid a sore back the next morning?

[jbooth]

Jim-

I would say the way you demonstrate this there is too much lack of segmented rotation/cusp/whatever you want to call it. The old fashioned description might be shoulder "flying open". You stand up/lose sit/don't maintain torso/spine angle.



BBJunkie also mentioned not maintaining my tilt. I was talking while demonstrating, and I wasn't worried about every detail. The topic of the video was how to maintain plane and keep the hands from going down. The player I was addressing was moving his hands off plane and moving his hands toward the height of the ball, instead of keeping them up.

In the first part of the video I was moving around but I don't see where I lost tilt anywhere in the second half where I was showing how to get to different height pitches;

In this picture below, I don't see how my tilt could stay any better. I DID set the angle wrong initially and I moved my hands, but my spine isn't changing tilt;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/JBtilt.jpg

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,
I think I understand what you are saying, but a photo or vid cap would be great.
Drew

I owe a couple people clips. My son is supposed to come home this weekend from school and I will try to grab him and get a clip to you.

[Jake Patterson]

Tilt looks pretty good to me!

[Ursa Major]

TigerfanB406 said: UM wouldn't that drill tear a shouler muscle or something? Or at least give a kid a sore back the next morning? When's the last time you heard of an 8 year old pulling a muscle? :) If you're referring to the ungainliness of rotating while "keeping the head in", obviously he can move his head after he's sure the bat has passed through the contact zone. And, as Jim and I suggest, it's probably better to place the longer stick in front of the chest, tucked under crossed arms. And, unlike dry swings, I wouldn't have a kid do it more than 25 times in a session. If it hurts after that, he's got bigger problems.

One benefit of keeping the stick behind the back is that it more closely simulates where the back arm and elbow should be situated during the launch of the swing. It's up to the coach to see what arm positioning flaws the kid has that might marginally be overcome by the different placements of the stick.

[Ursa Major]

Jim, I like the video, and it certainly coincides with what I feel is a nice set of cues to keep the swing "on plane".

I realize that you're addressing a high level hitter rather than the under 12 crowd that I deal with. But, I am curious about one part of your clip, where you repeat that the lead elbow should travel to where the lead shoulder started. I haven't seen this cue from you or anyone else. Certainly, using the shoulder as a direction to head to keeps the swing on plane. But I would worry that the cue might cause hitters to pull off the ball or "chickenwing". (You may recall that you got some of this criticiscm for this in your demonstration of the fence drill.) In other words, hitters may -- at the point where the knob is pointing at the pitcher -- move the hands sideways (in a straight line) directly up to the shoulders, losing some of the benefits of angular momentum. And, it could lead to premature disconnection.

So, do you think using this "elbow to the shoulder" cue for younger hitters poses any dangers? Is it necessary to use it if you've been using the "hands [and back shoulder] follow the lead elbow" cue? I'm not questioning your physics, but rather the unintended consequences of the cue.

[cartersball]

Ursa,

Like I said before, the video I posted was just something spur of the moment to show Jim the drill I thought his PVC box contraption would be helpful with as a training aid. I agree wholeheartedly that Drake is doing a poor job of demonstrating it in this video, but thats mainly my fault for rushing him into doing it so I could post it. Normally we do this drill with the tee as you have shown, and I try to enforce the proper tilt and the rotation. I think Jim's PVC box would be better used for this drill so that he can also add "maintaining the box". Then you would be using one drill to focus on three key aspects of the swing. I agree with you though that the rear arm is situated correctly with the bat behind the back. But, I have found it more difficult to get my players to "trust" in maintaining the box rather than taking the hands to the ball. They still want to use thier arms to swing rather than allowing them to come through by force of the rotation. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not to good with explainations.:noidea

[jbooth]

Jim, I like the video, and it certainly coincides with what I feel is a nice set of cues to keep the swing "on plane".

I realize that you're addressing a high level hitter rather than the under 12 crowd that I deal with. But, I am curious about one part of your clip, where you repeat that the lead elbow should travel to where the lead shoulder started. I haven't seen this cue from you or anyone else. Certainly, using the shoulder as a direction to head to keeps the swing on plane. But I would worry that the cue might cause hitters to pull off the ball or "chickenwing". (You may recall that you got some of this criticiscm for this in your demonstration of the fence drill.) In other words, hitters may -- at the point where the knob is pointing at the pitcher -- move the hands sideways (in a straight line) directly up to the shoulders, losing some of the benefits of angular momentum. And, it could lead to premature disconnection.

So, do you think using this "elbow to the shoulder" cue for younger hitters poses any dangers? Is it necessary to use it if you've been using the "hands [and back shoulder] follow the lead elbow" cue? I'm not questioning your physics, but rather the unintended consequences of the cue.

You make a good point, and the problem is that I assumed (which makes an ASS out of U and ME), that the student knows that you are supposed to turn the box. If you turn the box the elbow goes toward the shoulder without anything changing. Yes, if you move the elbow independantly toward the shoulder, by changing the elbow angle and/or changing the hand-at-shoulder position; you have a problem. But, I assumed that maintaining the box was a given when I was demonstrating.

"Pull off the ball" to ME, can only be done by changing the spine's tilt angle. If you go from tilted, toward vertical, your head and your shoulder come away from the ball, and they raise up.

The old; "stay down" or "keep your head in there/down" is accomplished by keeping the spine tilted. Your head moves because the spine changes angle and/or your legs did something wrong (straightened or bent.)

[Jake Patterson]

A more productive modification of this drill is to use a longer stick -- like a broom stick -- and then use a tee as you suggest, with a wiffle ball. The stick can be in front (better) or behind the kid. Here's sorta what your boy would look like doing it.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/DrakeCarter.BTBannot.gif

The stick can only meet the ball if the kid has the right posture, and it also forces the kid to keep his head in to hit the ball. In your case, the youngster has pulled his head away throughout the swing. You can also try to work on lower body mechanics to the extent the kid is ready for them.

Agree, but still would suggest the stick/bat be held in the front.

[jbooth]

Would it be possible to send me the "specs" on this?
What size pipe, how large to make, ect...

It's 1 inch (inside diameter) plastic water pipe.

It's a rectangle with the length being the width of the shoulders and the width is the length of the upper arm from shoulder to elbow. This one is 13 x 19. It should probably be more like 12 x 18 or if you plan to use it for small kids; 10-11 x 16-17.

A "T" connection is on the top that represents the spine.

I don't have them swing it (they'll whack themselves in the head when the bat comes around), I just use it as a demo to show how the corner that represents the hand connection (where the bolt attaches the bat) moves as part of the movement of the box and how the bat will move without arm power or hand power.

[tom.guerry]

Jim-

If you look at the entire swing/demo you show the 2 frames from, you will see that the head is on the way up in the first frame, gets up higher,then gets lower again by the time of the second frame. Much "standing up" and variation of tilt happened already before the first frame. Head should not come up this soon.

[jbooth]

Jim-

If you look at the entire swing/demo you show the 2 frames from, you will see that the head is on the way up in the first frame, gets up higher,then gets lower again by the time of the second frame. Much "standing up" and variation of tilt happened already before the first frame. Head should not come up this soon.

Whatever, Tom, it wasn't even a real swing. I was moving my body in slow motion. The ground I'm standing on isn't even level, the back foot is in grass and higher than my front foot that is on carpet. That could be part of it, also. Can YOU move in slow motion and keep everything exactly where it is supposed to be?

I didn't post the video for a critique of my swing, I posted it to discuss the principles of the swing. And, primarily the fundamentals involved in how the arms and hands move from the start of the swing, to, and through, the ball. Why are you worried about a tiny bit of head movement IN A DEMO SWING? If you want to pick apart the slo mo demo swing, it has other flaws too, I was just showing the student/player what he needed to focus on, in order to fix HIS problem, which was related to his hand path. I wasn't worried about anything else. He knows how to do the other stuff.

If you want to critique MY swing, I'll post some video of my actual swing, hitting a moving ball.

[Jake Patterson]

If you want to critique MY swing, I'll post some video of my actual swing, hitting a moving ball.

I think it's pretty good for an old bird like you.
I sent you a PM...

[bbjunkie]

Drew, this drill is generally used solely to get kids used to rotating aggressively and to get their arms momentarily out of the swing/rotation process. It may help with posture, but probably not.

A more productive modification of this drill is to use a longer stick -- like a broom stick -- and then use a tee as you suggest, with a wiffle ball. The stick can be in front (better) or behind the kid. Here's sorta what your boy would look like doing it.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/DrakeCarter.BTBannot.gif

The stick can only meet the ball if the kid has the right posture, and it also forces the kid to keep his head in to hit the ball. In your case, the youngster has pulled his head away throughout the swing. You can also try to work on lower body mechanics to the extent the kid is ready for them.
I agree with everything you said Ursa. But, I think the point of the exercise (with a tee of course) is to teach connection. I have the kids hook their arms over the bat as it is held at the lower part of the back (as I think someone else described). It's nearly impossible for kids to disconnect their arms from their torso with the bat (or stick) held like this.

I also use the stick in front drill, but they can still disconnect with this drill. I use it more for a demonstration of maintaining swing plane and box after they have a pretty good handle on rotation and connection.

[MSandman]

I don't see what you see. But, that's OK. I think my tilt is maintained and the bat is rotating perpendicular. Maybe it is an optical illusion from video, but the swings look fine to me.
:confused:

http://members.cox.net/ksanda/JB%20standing%20up.gif

Below is video of HR's by MLB players. Remember my camera was at waist height and the TV centerfield camera is 20 feet up, so the way the shoulder looks is affected by camera angle, but even so, the MLB hitter's shoulder appears to go up.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bbtn080706TouchEmAll.mpg (7 meg)
Taking some lessons from Ohfor, and posting mass quantities of clips to try to prove a point? :rolleyes: I realize this wasn't the discussion point you were looking for by posting the video lesson, but... in almost all of the swings you provided, I still see much better maintenance of posture/tilt than in your slomo practice swings. And for those whose front shoulder does rise, I believe it's because they start it lower than their rear; so that when they simply turn their torso around a stationary/consistent posture, it naturally rises. But I think yours rises in a very different way - it is following your rising head. I think whomever pointed out the "you're pulling your head out" or "your shoulder's flying open" (Tom?) was right in this case. Though their shoulder may move a bit, to me, it looks like it's turning. Their heads remain more over the plate, and I get a sense that their torso/shoulders turn around a very stationary axis, anchored by the stationary head. Your head is facing the pitcher at a very early point in the swing.

IMO, when you post something like this looking for input on its usefulness, I do believe it's pertinent to consider the entire post/video - not just the part you were focusing on. IOW and with no insult intended, I would think most good players would find it hard to buy into emulating this swing. Why not try to make your point to them using MLB clips instead of your own?

My 2 cents.

http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Maintaining%20tilt.gif

[swingbuster]

Your amazing Sandman...

I like the batter in the third box. When he gets on plane from the higher rear elbow you see the upper body rotation center set up nicely and you see the x factor form.

Jims low rear elbow and 45 slot launch starting position creates less resistance and separation. There is room for improvement at the cusp that is subtle but important . the problem might be THERE IS NO CUSP. It is a dead start and things can get jerked out of optimal position without a smooth properly executed cusp setting up stretch.

I am 50 also so I must give Jim credit though. He is a good teacher.

Jims lead elbow points to tee and rear elbow is down. Batter 3 lead elbow points to ground and rear elbow up ( the box is tilted). Jim hits is 30 feet farther like batter 3 IMHO


Look at a new/ different x factor diagram. Check a line that batter 3's bat is pointing vs his hip line. Look at Jims bat line direction vs his hips. Tell me which bat is going to swap ends harder

That x angle will yield better angular displacement and bat tip whip

[MSandman]

Thanks Donny.

FWIW, I agree that Jim has a lot of good things to say and probably helps quite a few hitters. I just think that using himself as a physical model perhaps doesn't help get his message across as well as sitting down at a PC w/ a student and showing/explaining MLB clips.

Jim, seriously, no offense intended; I'm just being honest.

Now... I'm going to go watch/listen to your video lesson to review the areas on which you were trying to generate discussion.

[Jake Patterson]

Now... I'm going to go watch/listen to your video lesson to review the areas on which you were trying to generate discussion.

Sand - Great post...
Couple things...

1. I am certain Jim is not advocating head movement.

2. Your point about using pros is valid. The ability to do so however, in this format is directly proportional to our ability to manipulate existing clips. I have been working with several guys to get the right kind of software that will allow me to do so. What do you use?

3. I view these posts from the perspective of teaching young players (12-19). From what perspective are you viewing these posts??

[jbooth]

Thanks Donny.

FWIW, I agree that Jim has a lot of good things to say and probably helps quite a few hitters. I just think that using himself as a physical model perhaps doesn't help get his message across as well as sitting down at a PC w/ a student and showing/explaining MLB clips.

Jim, seriously, no offense intended; I'm just being honest.

Now... I'm going to go watch/listen to your video lesson to review the areas on which you were trying to generate discussion.

No offense taken, and your markups of the MLB swings is fantastic, and you proved that my head DOES move (in THIS DEMO swing), and I appreciate seeing that. I don't know if I do that in a real swing. We'll see. :D

HOWEVER, I am simply amazed, astonished, flabberghasted, and unable to comprehend the thought process that you, Tom, SB and BBJunkie have.

Why in the world, would you be nit-picking the entire swing, (which is not really a swing, it's a slomo movement), when I'm talking, pointing and focusing your attention on only one part of the swing? Do you have A.D.D.? :laugh What difference does it make if some "off topic" parts are a LITTLE bit off. Pay attention to the point being made.;)

I DO sit down with my students and show them video of their swing compared to MLB players. But, the player for whom this video was made, was not even in the same state as me. I sent him this because we couldn't get together. I couldn't sit down with him. I made the video because it was easier to show and tell with him, because I couldn't be in person with him to review his swing compared to others'. HE got it. HE didn't come back and talk about my feet moving wrong or my head moving. He focused on the topic at hand. Which was; that he needed to let his elbow naturally raise, and to make sure his hands followed the plane up and around. He was letting his hands drop out of plane, and out of arc, just before contact.

Again, I love what you did with those MLB swing clips. That should really get the point of maintaining tilt, across to just about anybody. However, you drew lines related to tilt, when the topic of the video was relating to how the arms move, during rotation. Particularly the front elbow and hands. You're off topic. Why don't you go back to those clips and markup the upper arm position and movement, which is what I was trying to show. I was trying to show that the front elbow is UP and the upper arm is perpendicular to the spine, and the hands follow that path. Spine tilt is important, and a part of the movement, but the focus is on how the front elbow and hands travel during the swing. Markup some clips for us, that show THAT.

[MSandman]

Jake,

Perhaps you misinterpreted my "I'm going to go watch/listen to your video lesson to review the areas on which you were trying to generate discussion." comment? I wasn't saying, "Yes you were [focusing on head movement or anything else]". Rather, I simply meant that I was going to view the video, trying to see/understand the points Jim meant to highlight when he posted. Sorry for the confusion.

At any rate, I do believe that Jim makes a valid point about the spatial path the hands take sort of following the path of the lead elbow. However, Jim's posture being lost and his "drop and tilt" (which I don't see so much in this clip of ARod, and yes, I realize the pitch heights are slightly different, but I don't think that's really the reason), coupled with his cutoff shoulder rotation... causes him to "chicken wing" through the last part of his swing. I think it would be hard for a student to watch him do this and really get a good sense of his point. I think the point is driven home much better by watching and drawing lines on an MLB clip.

http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Hands%20follow%20elbow.gif

As for software, I used a combination of V1 Home Edition, and Jasc's (now Corel) PaintShop Pro and Animation Shop to do these - along w/ a few years of trial-and-error education. ;)

[MSandman]

Jim,

I was obviously in the process of marking up the elbow path while you were replying. :)

I chose to address the previous points about head/posture movement before addressing the video.

Just a thought... if you're doing long-distance training, perhaps you could do voice-over on MLB swings, combined w/ GIFs like I've included here? Would that be the best of both worlds?

Gotta go grab some wings/pizza before kickoffs! :)

Be back soon.

[MSandman]

Sand - Great post...
3. I view these posts from the perspective of teaching young players (12-19). From what perspective are you viewing these posts??

Jake,

I would agree, but I got the impression that Jim was perhaps dealing w/ someone a bit more advanced on this one?

[jbooth]

Jake,

Perhaps you misinterpreted my "I'm going to go watch/listen to your video lesson to review the areas on which you were trying to generate discussion." comment? I wasn't saying, "Yes you were [focusing on head movement or anything else]". Rather, I simply meant that I was going to view the video, trying to see/understand the points Jim meant to highlight when he posted. Sorry for the confusion.

At any rate, I do believe that Jim makes a valid point about the spatial path the hands take sort of following the path of the lead elbow. However, Jim's posture being lost and his "drop and tilt" (which I don't see so much in this clip of ARod, and yes, I realize the pitch heights are slightly different, but I don't think that's really the reason), coupled with his cutoff shoulder rotation... causes him to "chicken wing" through the last part of his swing. I think it would be hard for a student to watch him do this and really get a good sense of his point. I think the point is driven home much better by watching and drawing lines on an MLB clip.

http://members.cox.net/ksanda/Hands%20follow%20elbow.gif

As for software, I used a combination of V1 Home Edition, and Jasc's (now Corel) PaintShop Pro and Animation Shop to do these - along w/ a few years of trial-and-error education. ;)

OK, I'm not being defensive here, I just can't comprehend your thought process. Don't YOU ever EXAGGERATE a movement in front of a student, to get the point across? My elbow "chicken winged" as you describe it, because I was trying to get the viewer to focus on the topic, which is; that the elbow cannot drop down or extend. It needs to stay bent and move upward. In real swings it may or may not do that to perfection, due to pitch location and whether you were on time. Did you listen to my words while watching this video or did you turn off the audio?

In the swing you showed above, I wasn't concerned and didn't care diddly what my head or legs were doing. I was showing the viewer ARM movement.

[jbooth]

Jim,

I was obviously in the process of marking up the elbow path while you were replying. :)

Re-read my reply, I edited it a couple of times, so you may not have seen the final version.

I chose to address the previous points about head/posture movement before addressing the video.

OK, but head/posture was/is not the topic of the video. Arm/hand movement is the topic.

Just a thought... if you're doing long-distance training, perhaps you could do voice-over on MLB swings, combined w/ GIFs like I've included here? Would that be the best of both worlds?

It sure would, but I did this in hurry for him. We talked on the phone and I sent him some stills and video of MLB players for him to look at and confirm the point I was making in my video. He's at a high enough level to be able to filter out the irrelevant parts and to grasp the concept of what I was teaching. You are not seeing the forrest for the trees. Focus on the big picture and stop nit-picking lesser parts.

[MSandman]

OK, I'm not being defensive here

Yes, you ARE.

And yes, I did listen to the audio. That's why I drew the lines of the elbow path and the hand path that you said was following it.

In the swing you showed above, I wasn't concerned and didn't care diddly what my head or legs were doing. I was showing the viewer ARM movement.
Yes, but last I checked the ARMS are attached to the SHOULDERS. And your shoulders stop turning as you disconnect and push your hands. :ughh

IMO, it's just as important to relate HOW the hands move in order to follow the elbow path than it is to simply make the observation. Your demonstration does not emulate how that really should happen due to the reasons pointed out.

And now I'm done w/ this. :waving
Let the other viewers draw their own conclusions. Geez.:rolleyes:

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

That is a wonderful job of showing the look of "flying open" (JIM nonlive demo/drill) vs "keeping the front shoulder in" (derby Glaus and the later side view) as the traditional cues might be used. The high level mlb hitter who may resemble Jim here the most might be MOISES ALOU - a late learner.

Still, you can't inhibit shoulder rotation by trying to 'keep it in' the wrong way. All cues are 2 edged, so when you demonstrate things like this with video it is EXTEREMELY helpful to get the bigger picture/visual.

Here is another area that needs better video exploration. During the coiling part of the swing up until "cusp"/reversal/launch of bathead, there must be pelvic loading or posture (really total body here) change that permits the RATE of stretch of torso muscles to KEEP INCREASING or at least remain uninterrupted and have a last quick incresed rate of stretch.

When emphasized, the action is part of the "sit" or what Jones in golf called the "power squat".

An important part of this is "pelvic projection" as pelvis starts to go from pinch/flexion to unpinch/extension. Bagwell is one who accentautes this aspect. It is also part of what Yaz does in that recent clip you posted at hsbaseball.

Have you noticed or tried to illustrate that ?

[Ursa Major]

I think the reason that Jim either is or seems to be "chickenwinging" is because the contact point is ON the plate, rather than in front of it. So, the only way he could get the fat part of the bat on the ball would be to either pull of it or retract the elbow slightly.

Jim validly caught me on my earlier point, where I worried that the "elbow to the shoulder" cue for younger hitters might result in the unintended consequence of this kind of 'chickenwinging'. I myself have accused others of too readily condemning a drill or cue (say, the fence drill) because the possibility that it might be misused. Assuming that the cue Jim mentioned is used as part of a one-on-one coaching relationship, the coach should be able to readily detect if the hitter is misinterpreting the cue and correct the him.

What MSandman's wonderful graphics do show, albeit unintentionally, is that Jim's hands/shoulder unit moves to where the elbow was and the elbow moves to where the shoulder was, but the hands do NOT continue on to where the elbow had moved to. That kind of action by the hands could really result in disconnection and chickenwinging. Fortunately, Jim doesn't go there.

Anyway, I can understand Jim's frustration at having the video criticized for flaws that do not relate to the specific point that he was trying to make to a particular audience of one. So, I think that we need to have available to people who post suggestions on this board a ready made disclaimer to avert such problems in the future. Here is my modest suggestion:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/HittingDisclaimer.jpg

[swingbuster]

think the reason that Jim either is or seems to be "chickenwinging" is because the contact point is ON the plate, rather than in front of it. So, the only way he could get the fat part of the bat on the ball would be to either pull of it or retract the elbow slightly.

He also " reversed pivoted" flattening the rear foot. His front hip is moving to his back hip. Proper weight shift in synch with the cusp and as you say "getting the barrel rotation coming square out front" corrects the chicken wing.

A great rotational weight shift cue in baseball and golf is " don't unhinge the barrel until the hands pass the lead pocket.

[cartersball]

:laugh :laugh :laugh

Can we get that disclaimer in a downloadable PDF file link placed at the top of the forum?? Ursa, I have always suspected, but never confirmed until now YOU HAVE ENTIRELY TOO MUCH SPARE TIME ON YOUR HANDS. Funniest thing I have seen today. Thanks for the laugh.
Drew

[Jake Patterson]

http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/HittingDisclaimer.jpg


Ursa great post - LMAO -

[jbooth]

Yes, you ARE.

And yes, I did listen to the audio. That's why I drew the lines of the elbow path and the hand path that you said was following it.


Yes, but last I checked the ARMS are attached to the SHOULDERS. And your shoulders stop turning as you disconnect and push your hands. :ughh

IMO, it's just as important to relate HOW the hands move in order to follow the elbow path than it is to simply make the observation. Your demonstration does not emulate how that really should happen due to the reasons pointed out.

And now I'm done w/ this. :waving
Let the other viewers draw their own conclusions. Geez.:rolleyes:

I'm done too. What you and some others are doing is like; critiquing and pointing out errors in grammar, made by the math teacher who is trying to teach you how to solve an equation. Ignore his bad grammar, focus on that in English class, focus on what he is telling you about solving the equation.

In my demo swing I wasn't concerned about what my hips were doing, how my feet looked, how I loaded (didn't load), or whether my head was moving, I was simply showing how the elbow and hand look when you turn the box, and trying to provide a visual of the elbow and hand path within the arc of the swing. I think I accomplished that for most people. The video was not intended as a demonstration of a perfect swing, with every body part doing the perfect thing, it was meant to show how one PART of the swing works.

[Mark H]

"Pull off the ball" to ME, can only be done by changing the spine's tilt angle. If you go from tilted, toward vertical, your head and your shoulder come away from the ball, and they raise up.



It can also be done by rotating around the back hip instead of the front.

Some of you boys need to chill a little on picking on Jim. If Steve wasn't available, I'd be comfortable with Jim working with my kid and I can count the number of people I'd say that about without taking a second breath. Would we argue about some things? Probably. But as obstinate as he can be, he's not scared to put his position out there and he's not scared to change when he thinks it's the right thing to do and he's not theorizing from an ivory tower and he's not taking a position based on emotion. Especially with the much discussed absence of some others, you guys are lucky to still have some input from Jim. Keeps it a little more real around here. You badger and nitpick him enough that he goes away, the readers of this forum will have lost more than Jim would have lost.

[Ursa Major]

Cartersball said: Ursa, I have always suspected, but never confirmed until now YOU HAVE ENTIRELY TOO MUCH SPARE TIME ON YOUR HANDS. Nah, it's just that, where I'd spend Sunday afternoons in the Fall watching the 49ers on television, I'd rather play with this kind of thing .... or drive 20d nails into my head, for that matter.

Mark H said: If Steve wasn't available, I'd be comfortable with Jim working with my kid... Well, Jim has worked with my kid and my only regret is that he's just a bit too far away to get back over to work with him regularly. He's terrific. And, honest, he's a lot more pleasant in person.... :)

[swingbuster]

You badger and nitpick him enough that he goes away, the readers of this forum will have lost more than Jim would have lost.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody was badgering Jim. Any swing gets critiqued. I recall posting a swing of a kid with a great one plane swing and said " this is a kid with a great one plane swing that I did not teach him".

I posted a kid with a two plane swing that I did not teach at the same time.


Man..the post the followed those clips totally ignored what I said.

In this case with JIm people were developing thought patterns of other things they saw( including me). Cues were given that cause/ correct what we saw. Jim , I apologize if I offended. I was using footage to make statements that were generic . I got you intended point and agree with it

In my case they were just being a**holes

[jbooth]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody was badgering Jim. Any swing gets critiqued.

But, the video was NOT a swing to be critiqued. I could have stood straight-legged and flat-footed. All you were supposed to be looking at was my elbow and hand movement. I was showing how the elbow stays bent and does not move in a downward plane to the ball. You weren't supposed to be at all concerned with any other body part. I wasn't, that's why it isn't perfect in all parts. If I wanted to demonstrate proper leg movement, I would have done leg movement right, and I probably wouldn't care, in that case, what any other part was doing. Why is this so difficult to grasp? You were supposed to just get the concept of keeping the front elbow moving up and around the body, while bent, as opposed to it moving down and/or extending. You don't/shouldn't look at anything else.

[jbooth]

It can also be done by rotating around the back hip instead of the front.

That's true. Good point, and that's probably what caused it in the DEMO. I was moving slowly so there was no momentum to get me to the front. Plus, as I resonded to SB. It wasn't a SWING demo, it was a demo of elbow arm angle movement. Every other part of the demo movement could and should have been ignored. The viewer was supposed to be watching the front arm.

You badger and nitpick him enough that he goes away, the readers of this forum will have lost more than Jim would have lost.

Yep, and any posts I make today, are the last you will probably see from me, here.

[wogdoggy]

Cool video. Thanks.

I do think your gadget is a better explanatory tool than Mankin's pathfinder bat.

As an aside, I've also had fun with PVC building things to help me teach pitching, that people have (to my surprise) expressed an interest in buying, and could give you some advice on how to progress.

One quick question.

I don't know if this is relevant or just an artifact of the mechanism, but notice that the bat doesn't fly out until the shoulders start to stop rotating. This is caused by the conservation of momentum and causes the energy of the large rotating body (the body) to be funnelled into the smaller rotating body (the bat). This boosts the batspeed.

The same thing happens when a pitcher throws the ball; their elbow rapidly extends 90 degrees as their shoulders start to stop rotating.

It would seem that the point at which the shoulders start to stop rotating, and that the bat starts to fly out, would be relevant to how well you hit the ball. For example, if you rotate your shoulders too much, then the whip of the bat will happen too late and you won't get the best angle between the bat and the ball at the point of contact.


how can you hit an inside pitch using mankins pathfinder bat and keep it fair?

[wogdoggy]

Drew, this drill is generally used solely to get kids used to rotating aggressively and to get their arms momentarily out of the swing/rotation process. It may help with posture, but probably not.

A more productive modification of this drill is to use a longer stick -- like a broom stick -- and then use a tee as you suggest, with a wiffle ball. The stick can be in front (better) or behind the kid. Here's sorta what your boy would look like doing it.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/DrakeCarter.BTBannot.gif

The stick can only meet the ball if the kid has the right posture, and it also forces the kid to keep his head in to hit the ball. In your case, the youngster has pulled his head away throughout the swing. You can also try to work on lower body mechanics to the extent the kid is ready for them.


you guys are on the right track,,BUT in my opinion this kid is using his LEGS to rotate and NOT his middle..dont wanna sound like a sales rep for STEVE but this kid is YOUNG enough to get him moving the CORRECT way,....DAD spend the money and buy Steves stuff.youll learn about the box and moving the right way..this kid is the perfect age to learn.

[bbjunkie]

What you and some others are doing is like; critiquing and pointing out errors in grammar, made by the math teacher who is trying to teach you how to solve an equation. Ignore his bad grammar, focus on that in English class, focus on what he is telling you about solving the equation.
Back in the dark ages when I went to school, all teachers, no matter the subject, graded us on grammar and spelling. It was assumed that these areas of expertise were relevant to all areas of human endeavor. I still agree with that notion, although your point is well taken and I admit guilt in critiquing aspects of the vid that had nothing to do with your subject. Sorry.

BTW, URSA, I'm glad your form recognized that "beer league" is the highest level of baseball achievement, or at least I like to think so after a brew or two.:crazy

[jbooth]

you guys are on the right track,,BUT in my opinion this kid is using his LEGS to rotate and NOT his middle..dont wanna sound like a sales rep for STEVE but this kid is YOUNG enough to get him moving the CORRECT way,....DAD spend the money and buy Steves stuff.youll learn about the box and moving the right way..this kid is the perfect age to learn.

Now you're sounding like Fungo22. The middle can't move by itself. Again, a problem with words, maybe. But, the legs DO move the middle. I explained that to Fungo in the synching upper and lower body thread.

[jbooth]

:confused:

http://members.cox.net/ksanda/JB%20standing%20up.gif

The line on the upper arm that I added, is the subject of the video, not spine tilt.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/jbelbow.gif

[wogdoggy]

Now you're sounding like Fungo22. The middle can't move by itself. Again, a problem with words, maybe. But, the legs DO move the middle. I explained that to Fungo in the synching upper and lower body thread.


really thats funny i can do it

[jbooth]

really thats funny i can do it

Can do what? Turn you hips?

How, anatomically do you think it happens?

I'll give you a clue, it has to do with the many muscles that connect the femur (thigh bone) to the pelvic region (hip/groin);

The primary muscles involved are;
sartorius
tensor fasciae latae
pectineus
adductor longus
adductor brevis
adductor magnus
gracilis
gluteus medius
quadratis femoris

You can view these and see how they work at:

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/thighmuscles/anteriormuscles/menu/menu.html

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/thighmuscles/posteriormuscles/menu/menu.html

These muscles move the LEGS, but your weight is on the legs, mostly the back leg to start, so when they contract, the ground is the immovable spot and the contraction moves the femurs which push/pull on the hips. The forces and action are occurring between the ground and your hip socket where the upper leg bone inserts.

THAT is what "move the middle" means; which is a dumb synonym for saying "turn the hips" or "rotate your hips."

The external and internal obliques rotate your spine, which turns your shoulders. The only way those muscles act upon your hips is; after the spine twists to its maxium it turns the hips. So, you would have to turn the shoulders, THEN the hips to use those muscles, and that is not what you do when you swing. The legs turn the hips, which rotates the spine, and then the obliques unwind the spine. The obliques attach to the upper body.

You can rotate the hips using the legs OR the obliques, but in a swing you turn from the ground up. You turn the hips then the shoulders. You use the legs, THEN the obliques.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

I would agree, but I got the impression that Jim was perhaps dealing w/ someone a bit more advanced on this one?

I think what I was try to ask.. Is when you view information here at BBF in general- from what perspective do you view it. I view it from the standpoint of training 12-19 y/o's.

[wogdoggy]

Can do what? Turn you hips?

How, anatomically do you think it happens?

I'll give you a clue, it has to do with the many muscles that connect the femur (thigh bone) to the pelvic region (hip/groin);

The primary muscles involved are;
sartorius
tensor fasciae latae
pectineus
adductor longus
adductor brevis
adductor magnus
gracilis
gluteus medius
quadratis femoris

You can view these and see how they work at:

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/thighmuscles/anteriormuscles/menu/menu.html

These muscles move the LEGS, but your weight is on the legs, mostly the back leg to start, so when they contract, the ground is the immovable spot and the contraction moves the femurs which push/pull on the hips. The forces and action are occurring between the ground and your hip socket where the upper leg bone inserts.

THAT is what "move the middle" means; which is a dumb synonym for saying "turn the hips" or "rotate your hips."


turn WITHOUT moving your legs to do it,read dixon.if your feet come off the ground you may be using your legs or your,magnus,longus brevisusssusus.lol

[jbooth]

turn WITHOUT moving your legs to do it,read dixon.if your feet come off the ground you may be using your legs or your,magnus,longus brevisusssusus.lol

If you turn without moving your legs, you are twisting the spine with the obliques. You are turning the shoulders which THEN turn the hips. Is THAT how you teach kids to swing? By moving the shoulders first? I hope not.

I added more info to my post after you viewed it. View it again if you wish.

Dang it, man, this isn't a theory, I'm giving you FACT. Anatomical fact from the science of kinesiology. If you don't understand it, that's one thing, but you look like an idiot if you say it's wrong. From what I understand, Dixon was a photographer, not a kinesiologist. Do think he just MIGHT not have it correct?

[Mark H]

Now you're sounding like Fungo22. The middle can't move by itself. Again, a problem with words, maybe. But, the legs DO move the middle. I explained that to Fungo in the synching upper and lower body thread.

Dixon. :)
.

[wogdoggy]

Dixon. :)
.


JOHN it is a MUST have BOOK.

[jbooth]

Dixon. :)
.

What do I need Dixon for? I just gave you the FACTS and identified the muscles and explained how they move. I provided a website with the diagrams of the muscles and the site has animation to show what the muscles do. If you don't agree then you are ignoring the facts.

[jbooth]

JOHN it is a MUST have BOOK.

Why, when I have plenty of other sources? Anatomy books, anatomy websites, a model skeleton in my room, video from a PhD in kinesiology who studied the swing, and a friend who has a masters in kinesiology, several friends who are physicists and my own knowledge from study of anatomy, kinesiology and physics, and most important my experience and knowledge of the baseball swing.

I'm not a casual poster here with unsupported theories. I have studied this stuff, in depth, by listening to everything everybody says, and then going through a thorough process of analyzing it and proving them or myself, correct or incorrect. I've found myself to be wrong on occaision as well as others. I think I've separated the fact from fiction pretty well. I know how and why things work, and I try to pass on that knowledge from long, hard study, to people here, but they are free to disagree.

I won't be passing it on much longer. Today is the last day.

[wogdoggy]

What do I need Dixon for? I just gave you the FACTS and identified the muscles and explained how they move. I provided a website with the diagrams of the muscles and the site has animation to show what the muscles do. If you don't agree then you are ignoring the facts.


what do i need school for dad? after seeing you perform the fence drill..ahem...

[Mark H]

What do I need Dixon for? I just gave you the FACTS and identified the muscles and explained how they move. I provided a website with the diagrams of the muscles and the site has animation to show what the muscles do. If you don't agree then you are ignoring the facts.

Guess you'll know when you read the book. :)

[Mark H]

I'm not a casual poster here with unsupported theories. I have studied this stuff, in depth, by listening to everything everybody says, and then going through a thorough process of analyzing it and proving them or myself, correct or incorrect. I've found myself to be wrong on occaision as well as others. I think I've separated the fact from fiction pretty well. .

I know. That's why I bother to pass along things to you that I think are good.

[jbooth]

what do i need school for dad? after seeing you perform the fence drill..ahem...

Nothing wrong with the fence drill if you know what it is supposed to accomplish. If you lack the understanding of what it is for, then it won't help you. It's a DRILL, not the swing. BTW, due to the debate on that drill, I learned from it. I still use the fence drill, but I modified it from the way Epstein uses it. I make it more like a real swing than the exaggerated movement he forces.

You and others laughed at my "wall drill" too, because you just didn't get it. That drill was using all the muscles I previously described. But, you were too hung up on the fact that I let my body shift to my front leg, to get the REAL point of the drill and what was REALLY happening with my muscles. Just like the video lesson, you guys miss the point all the time. You can't see the forrest for the trees, and can't seem to open your mind to thoughts that are different from what you believe to be fact.

When I believe something to be a fact, and someone says something different, I don't blow them off, I research further to see who is actually right. Sometimes, I have found myself to be wrong and in other cases, confirmed that I was right, in other cases, there isn't sufficient evidence to prove either person right or wrong. I don't see you doing that. You're locked in to your beliefs.

[jbooth]

what do i need school for dad? after seeing you perform the fence drill..ahem...

What a assinine statement. You apparantly can't disprove my statements, or present an intelligent rebuttal to my beliefs, so you pull some stupid statement out of thin air. What has the fence drill, or my execution of it, got to do with my detailed explanation and analysis of how the legs turn the hips?

Why not prove me wrong, or at least give your thoughts on how you think the hips turn, instead of bringing up a totally irrelevant topic?

[Jake Patterson]

Gentlemen,
I have great heart ache with the manner in which we handle these threads. Too many of us are viewing suggestions from others with a What can I find wrong with this? stanpoint than we are What can I learn from this? standpoint.

I am not smart enough or experienced enough to take a firm position on anything posted here. What I try to do is learn, especially from those who have paid their dues.

Pushing away contributors benefits no one.

[Jake Patterson]

JOHN it is a MUST have BOOK.
Depending upon who you speak with so is Lau's, Hirniak, Williams, Ripkin, Lopez, Epstein, Schupak, Delmonico, Walker, Anderson, Morgan, Winfield, Gwynn, Baker, Schmidt, Ferolli, Boulware, Altopp, Hudgens, Ellis, Thomas, etc., etc, etc.

I hope you get my point....

[Mark H]

You need to read Dixon too.

[ssarge]

Lots of books / tapes on hitting mechanics, Jake.

Not many that talk about HOW the body moves to throw and hit, and what movements elite hitters have in common.

It really is kind of seminal.

And referenced often enough that for the serious hitting student / coach to defer purchasing it - for $20 - seems an omission. If for no other reason than to understand the references alluded to by others, and what they have determined to be foundational.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Who is Lopez?

Regards,

Scott

[wogdoggy]

Nothing wrong with the fence drill if you know what it is supposed to accomplish. If you lack the understanding of what it is for, then it won't help you. It's a DRILL, not the swing. BTW, due to the debate on that drill, I learned from it. I still use the fence drill, but I modified it from the way Epstein uses it. I make it more like a real swing than the exaggerated movement he forces.

You and others laughed at my "wall drill" too, because you just didn't get it. That drill was using all the muscles I previously described. But, you were too hung up on the fact that I let my body shift to my front leg, to get the REAL point of the drill and what was REALLY happening with my muscles. Just like the video lesson, you guys miss the point all the time. You can't see the forrest for the trees, and can't seem to open your mind to thoughts that are different from what you believe to be fact.

When I believe something to be a fact, and someone says something different, I don't blow them off, I research further to see who is actually right. Sometimes, I have found myself to be wrong and in other cases, confirmed that I was right, in other cases, there isn't sufficient evidence to prove either person right or wrong. I don't see you doing that. You're locked in to your beliefs.

john I didnt laugh at you,,actually i think you are a GREAT contributor to this board.although I dont agree with all your stuff you know a heckuva lot.mark.

[Jake Patterson]

Who is Lopez?
Regards,
Scott

Andy Lopez - University of Florida - he wrote Coaching Baseball Successfully - Published by Human Kinetics

Can you give me Dixon's ISBN I will order and read.

My point with the above is.... If you go to the World Baseball Convention you will see in one place hundreds of college and professional coaches and players - many of which have the "greatest" book, DVD, method, devise ever created.

[wogdoggy]

Andy Lopez - University of Florida - he wrote Coaching Baseball Successfully - Published by Human Kinetics

Can you give me Dixon's ISBN I will order and read.

My point with the above is.... If you go to the World Baseball Convention you will see in one place hundreds of college and professional coaches and players - many of which have the "greatest" book, DVD, method, devise ever created.


nobody has touched the subject like jim dixon has...wait until you see george brett in this book...its amazing..what happens under the uniform is the answer.

[ssarge]

My point with the above is.... If you go to the World Baseball Convention you will see in one place hundreds of college and professional coaches and players - many of which have the "greatest" book, DVD, method, devise ever created.

I understood your point.

Dixon died 3 months ago. I believe his son is still selling The Exceptional Player.

Sean Dixon
1726 Golden Valley Drive
Christiana, TN 37037

speeddixon@bellsouth.net

As I recall, price is $25.

Regards,

Scott

[jbooth]

nobody has touched the subject like jim dixon has...wait until you see george brett in this book...its amazing..what happens under the uniform is the answer.

Summarize for me, if you will, how Dixon believes that the hips turn under the uniform.

[MSandman]

I think what I was try to ask.. Is when you view information here at BBF in general- from what perspective do you view it. I view it from the standpoint of training 12-19 y/o's.

I suppose I usually view it from the same. But in this case, I thought it was pretty evident that Jim was dealing w/ someone perhaps a bit older and more advanced. Not sure I get your point tho?

[Jake Patterson]

I suppose I usually view it from the same. But in this case, I thought it was pretty evident that Jim was dealing w/ someone perhaps a bit older and more advanced. Not sure I get your point tho?

I understood from which perspective Jim was sharing his points. I was wondering if the disagreements we have are because we see things from different ends of the spectrum.

[swingbuster]

Summarize for me, if you will, how Dixon believes that the hips turn under the uniform.

I bought the book and gave it to Ken Roberts. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Mark H]

Summarize for me, if you will, how Dixon believes that the hips turn under the uniform.

We would be doing you a disservice. Get it from the source.

[Mark H]

I bought the book and gave it to Ken Roberts. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

I know, I know, he doesn't talk about hand set. ;)

[ssarge]

Lots of guys have a much broader knowledge base than I possess. But Dixon was eye-opening for me. I am stunned if there are people who read the book that weren't impressed by it, or who didn't take something away from it.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Jake:

Your point is valid.

Although I don't think age of the hitter is the demarcation point.

I think there is one group of folks who observe a young hitter and conclude - largely accurately - what is different about the young hitter as compared to an MLB hitter.

Which has a certain value. Although comments such as "Bonds does it better" - no matter how they are packaged - are only moderately helpful to ME.

And it is a given that young hitters DON'T look like Bonds, because after all, BONDS didn't look like Bonds until he was about 35.


And I think there is another group who are willing to forego an attempt to emulate certain characteristics of MLB hitters until such time as what is "under the covers" on the young hitter is tracking towards what is under the covers for the elite hitter. This group is MUCH more concerned w/ cause and effect.


The first group thinks the second group is blind, and is ignoring obvious realities of what the MLB swing "looks like."

The second group thinks the first group is putting lipstick on a pig in an attempt to copy certain movements without the underlying foundation to support them.


And it is largely impossible for a 3rd party to determine which approach is better simply by reading posts.


I would hope that the 3rd parties would seek out and be moved by other evidence, since as before / after video of actual young hitters, etc. But who knows?

Best,

Scott

[swingbuster]

And I think there is another group who are willing to forego an attempt to emulate certain characteristics of MLB hitters until such time as what is "under the covers" on the young hitter is tracking towards what is under the covers for the elite hitter. This group is MUCH more concerned w/ cause and effect.


Scott ,

I think both groups are concerned about effect. we might disagree on cause.

To teach a player how to rotate the barrel at swing initiation using a technique that has been chronicled in 1000's of clips by Mankin doesn't make this group a reckless fringe element . It is anything but.....

I agree that age is not the determining factor. I really am not sure what the determining factor should be to embark on one method or the other.

It is probably the skill level of the messenger in doing it the way he/she feels most confident or competent

[Jake Patterson]

And it is largely impossible for a 3rd party to determine which approach is better simply by reading posts. Scott

I think the casual forumer can only benefit if they are able to plug the information posted here into a process that acknowledges learning how to hit is a process. The process defined as taking the young hitter to a point where they emulate the higher level hitters.

We spoke about this before. The issue I have with some youth coaches is having them teach Hitting 505 before they teach Hitting 101. The example I like to use is the coach teaching a young student spinal perpendicularity when they have not taught how to properly grip a bat.

The reason I asked the question about perspective goes back to Jim's post. Using his post to train specific aspects of the swing - a building block if you will- is great. Trying to evaluate Jim's "building block" as a high level swing leads to misinterpretation, confusion and frustration at all levels.

Appreciate your post,
Jake

[ssarge]

To teach a player how to rotate the barrel at swing initiation using a technique that has been chronicled in 1000's of clips by Mankin doesn't make this group a reckless fringe element . It is anything but.....

You are reading more into my comments than is warranted.



That said, since you raise the topic, it is true that Mankin shows many examples of elite hitters "using" what he calls "Top-Hand-Torque."

And many others frequenting these hitting boards have shown equally large numbers of hitters who DON'T do it.

So under no circumstance is it universal among elite hitters.

I would hope and assume you'd concede this point?


Assuming that you do, two questions remain - for me, anyway.


One is "cause and effect." I can certainly make a case that in many of the examples of hitters who DO use what Mankin calls THT, the action is precipitated by rotational forces and / or shoulder movement. Meaning that it is NOT a movement INITIATED by the hands.


The other is basically, so what? What if some hitters DO use THT? Does that help them generate more bat speed? Earlier bat speed? Better quickness?

And the evidence on that one causes me to lean towards a resounding "no." Guys like Adair - a world class physicist - and for that matter, someone like JJA (a Cal Tech physicist who resides on internet hitting boards) say no. ANd make a very compelling case.

IMO, it is difficult to say that Mankin w/ a VCR has more credibility on this than someone like Adair.


Others can - and apparently do - conclude differently.

But when I personally look at the totality of the evidence. I see:

1) a move that is not universal

2) a movement that in some cases is definitely precipitated by earlier movements of biggger body parts (in other words, has a different cause to create the effect than is being ascribed to it),

and,

3) is completely unproven as to having any effect. And the hard science seems to be saying it DOESN'T have any effect.


Frankly, the evidence seems to point to an antecedent assumption that it MUST be true by those who are proponents. Which is a shaky basis for theorem. I personally just can't find any other support for it.


I WOULD allow that as a rythym and tempo mechanism, it could be valuable to some hitters.

But that is certainly far from a universal, too.

Best regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

I think the casual forumer can only benefit if they are able to plug the information posted here into a process that acknowledges learning how to hit is a process. The process defined as taking the young hitter to a point where they emulate the higher level hitters.

I think you are correct.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

Meaning that it is NOT a movement INITIATED by the hands.

You are right!. The hands should not come forward at swing initiation and this mechanism all but assures that fact . To hold the hands back " dead" with a pinched scap muscle doesn't resonate with kids. The brain doesn't talk that way.

The THT IS initiated by the hands but the MISSED point is that the hands initiate it by their "negative move". Mankin called it prelaunch torque which is the counter rotation of the bat around the hands as the hips coil as the weight is carried forward.


You have two fly wheels turning in opposite directions and the bigger one engages causing a rapid reversal of the smaller one and the resistance( hands staying back) and stretch is tremendous.

When the bat is tipped to the pitcher as the hips coil then two centers are stretched/ primed to fire back. SO ...it is the coiling of the hips and the cocking of the hands out of plane that sets up a players ability to rotate the barrel around the hands AS the shoulder turn.

Hip coil is very important and so is priming of the forearm flexors and initiation of that rotation center as it effects angular displacement...." getting the darned bat out"

Without the prelaunch torque as the first move one is relying on the shoulders staying "in" at swing initiation. This is highly variable in kids with ball fear and once the front shoulder opens early the swing is gone in your model. A better way of keeping the front shoulder "in" is keeping the " hands back". Prelaunch torque happens early in the sequence and is a more reliable mechanism for having the front shoulder " in" as the hips rotate open.

[Mark H]

To hold the hands back " dead" with a pinched scap muscle doesn't resonate with kids. The brain doesn't talk that way.

.

Huh? Where did this come from?

[wogdoggy]

You have two fly wheels turning in opposite directions and the bigger one engages causing a rapid reversal of the smaller one and the resistance( hands staying back) and stretch is tremendous


this works much better with kids..lol

[ssarge]

To hold the hands back " dead" with a pinched scap muscle doesn't resonate with kids. The brain doesn't talk that way.

Neither does anyone who has a clue about hitting.

If you are representing that this is my position, or that of Englishbey or guys whom he influences, you are DEFINITELY mis-characterizing.


You are right!. The hands should not come forward at swing initiation and this mechanism all but assures that fact .

It also often causes a slotting of the elbow rather than letting the shoulder complex control this aspect of the swing.

And in many cases leads to bat drag which kids (unlike pros) lack the technique or physical attributes to correct.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

this works much better with kids..lol

A bunt works best :clapping . Cuts your strike outs down but totally eliminates the gap doubles and HRs

[wogdoggy]

A bunt works best :clapping . Cuts your strike outs down but totally eliminates the gap doubles and HRs


maybe you can post a clip of your student showing his best bunt huh swingy...with torque applied of course

[swingbuster]

We don't bunt......

[wogdoggy]

We don't bunt......


lol..good one swingy

[swingbuster]

lol..good one swingy

It sounded like a line from a John Wayne movie huh?

With my seniors graduated we might bunt every inning. It might be the only way we make contact.

we do have three juniors coming back that hit 13 HR as 10th graders

An I bought a digital mini DVD camera yesterday.

You guys can really crawl my a** soon

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: "To hold the hands back " dead" with a pinched scap muscle doesn't resonate with kids.
****
"You have two fly wheels turning in opposite directions and the bigger one engages causing a rapid reversal of the smaller one and the resistance( hands staying back) and stretch is tremendous"

Wogdoggy, replied: "This works much better with kids..lol"

ROTFLTTRDMCADIMS, Woggy. And I think I'll add to the list of things I've got to do before I die -- which now includes seeing ballgames at Wrigley Field and Fenway Park and something about Tricia Nixon that I can't get into -- is to get together with you for a couple of brews, hombre.

UM

[swingbuster]

UM...You will also get to do one more thing before you die. You will get to realize that your son could have been a heck of lot better if you had tried to understand how the hands / forearms load and work in the swing.

The " I could have had a V-8 " will be " I wish I hadn't drank the kool-aid"

I have been where you are and raised one to age twenty. He graduated at 18 and learned what makes the barrel pop at 19 when I showed him after I finally learned it. That is a sick feeling

I have seen the end of the video you are watching in a figurative sense. The Titanic sunk.... believe me.

I understand your position. I thought Nyman was right for three years. I was wrong. It is not funny when you realize it too late. What works on the loopy inside pitches will not work later and later arrives with no real pop and adjustment mechanism ingrained and you have wasted the formative years badly.

Don't get drunk off early success in LL with -12 bats and hanging/ loopy inside pulled pitches. The game gets harder and you know that better than most

[bbjunkie]

What works on the loopy inside pitches will not work later and later arrives with no real pop and adjustment mechanism ingrained and you have wasted the formative years badly
Passages like this cause my eyes to glaze and my mind to disregard any kernels of truth that may be hidden in your posts.

[swingbuster]

They are already glazed over... I didn't do it. Failure to function well at a higher level could make you look again.

[stickaball junkie]

I understand your position. I thought Nyman was right for three years. I was wrong. It is not funny when you realize it too late. What works on the loopy inside pitches will not work later and later arrives with no real pop and adjustment mechanism ingrained and you have wasted the formative years badly.



Can you explain what is wrong and mention what you have learned? I have been viewing this site for a while listening and applying everything I can. I respect your opinion and would love to hear what you have to say about this.

[swingbuster]

It can be quite simple to apply and test for yourself . Always test. Work with this and see if you can find it . You can PM me and we can talk on the phone and I can talk you through some experiences with it if you like

Put a ball on a tee with the seams facing backwards. Swing at it by pulling the knob with the front shoulder. You will find it difficult to hit anything but the outside seam pulling the ball if your feet are aligned up the middle

Now place the bat vertical , loaded splitting the helmet or in front of the body in front of the rear collar bone. Have the lead elbow down near chest and the rear elbow up and back. You will notice the top hand is facing downward ( that is called pronation of the hand) and both are relaxed.

Start your swing by turning the bat back on plane with the hands and forearms as you turn the body to hit. All of this happens at once but down rush the total move.

Put the tee a little back in your stance and try to hit the inside seam . You will hit the ball center .

You want to get rid of the step /pull the knob feel and replace it with one motion where the hands turn the bat back on plane as the body turns.

[jbooth]

I think the casual forumer can only benefit if they are able to plug the information posted here into a process that acknowledges learning how to hit is a process. The process defined as taking the young hitter to a point where they emulate the higher level hitters.

We spoke about this before. The issue I have with some youth coaches is having them teach Hitting 505 before they teach Hitting 101. The example I like to use is the coach teaching a young student spinal perpendicularity when they have not taught how to properly grip a bat.

The reason I asked the question about perspective goes back to Jim's post. Using his post to train specific aspects of the swing - a building block if you will- is great. Trying to evaluate Jim's "building block" as a high level swing leads to misinterpretation, confusion and frustration at all levels.

Appreciate your post,
Jake

Here are a couple of examples of what this thread was supposed to be about. Which is; how the arms move with the upper body;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/apujolsmarkup.gif

The blue line shows the consistent distance kept from hands to shoulder for a long time. The reddish line shows how long the forearm to bat angle is kept.

Another example;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds90view.gif

[swingbuster]

Jim...your image and highlight on Pujols hands( wrist angle) supports my long time finding coaching the " Little Guys"

I wrote about it in 2005 in Webball

Crucial Teaches in the Developing Hitter

The most crucial part of hitting is having the hands come to cocked position when the front foot touches down. One only need to watch a little league game to figure this out. Just sit and count how few kids actually do this. The corollary might be that I can go to a LL practice and say ³keep your bat cocked right here and your lead elbow bent until you foot touches and hit² and make the entire team hit remarkably better in 45 minutes.

The loopy pitches and wild pitches of youth ball make upper body mechanics actually more crucial than lower body mechanics during this period of play and development. It is hard to stride to a balanced point and swing at a ball coming down or at you. So the youngest kids that learn how to pre load and unload the upper body have more success regardless of what they doing below the waist. Even with other imperfections concerning stride , swing plane, and balance, maintenance of this cocked hand position until launch will insure some very good pop. For the immature batters it is advisable to have the bat near the launch point, centered behind the head , with cocked hands and hit the ball hard with the hips. Getting to the contact zone with the hands leading the barrel is key here and the key later too.

Somebody posted a clip of Nyman from the side view swinging in a cage recently along with a frontal view.

The first thing I noticed was thatNyman went to toe touch without the proper hinge angle. It stands out big time to me as I have coached years using that indicator and it's predicatbility to power


That is a LL absolute. I won several City Tourneys with that cue alone. I wrote that before I discovered how to optimize it in older kids and before I experiemented with the optimization with little kids. You and Jake are right about getting to Hitting 501 before you pass Hitting 101. Some can skip steps and some cannot

[Mark H]

Lord knows I have reason to not defend Nyman but to be fair, he never held up his swing as one to emulate. He felt like he was more like a mediocre 12U as I recall trying to learn to swing at the age of whatever old he is. I agree with Jim's analysis here and agree the hinge angle should be maintained around the corner.

[wogdoggy]

Lord knows I have reason to not defend Nyman but to be fair, he never held up his swing as one to emulate. He felt like he was more like a mediocre 12U as I recall trying to learn to swing at the age of whatever old he is. I agree with Jim's analysis here and agree the hinge angle should be maintained around the corner.



agreed

but where does arm action is king fit in here

[swingbuster]

Lord knows I have reason to not defend Nyman but to be fair, he never held up his swing as one to emulate

At 52, mine is not one to exhibit flexability. My son recently told me " Dad, your playing good golf now because your too stiff to get off line"

Thanks Buddy

"Every player's hands must come to a cocked position when his front foot hits the ground"...Tony Gwynn

If you have swung a bat or anything for that matter you could never go to foot plant with no hinge angle. If you missed that in your " discovery" your model would not work

[tom.guerry]

woggy-

arm action fits in several places. one is in how the body resembles or does not resemble the mechanics of the double pendulum/2 piece whip.

when you look at the mechanical double pendulum demo/model, what you will notice is that the "hinge angle" (angle between the 2 links) gets very narrow before the second/distal link/pendulum whips.

when you look at actual video of high level hitters you do not see this prominent narrowing of the hinge angle.

In addition,later in the swing we do not want to see the hinge angle open up to early.

how do these requirements get reconciled ?

it takes arm action - external rotation of back arm/internal rotation of lead arm associated with OAffie's latest discoveries - supination of the back arm (the "swivel that he sees Steve E do that apparently remains "tacit" info to PCR detainees) and pronation of the lead arm.

These actions prevent the hinge angle fron OVERnarrowing which prevents degrading swing quickness.

These actions can take place without the lead wrist opening the hinge angle early as lead wrist aDduction can be saved for contact/timed to synch with full extension of the front leg.

[Mark H]

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I don't think it was serious question Tom.

[tom.guerry]

I don't think it was a serious question either, but, it was a good question and a serious answer.

Where's old 4x4 when you need nonserious questions ?

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: "UM...You will also get to do one more thing before you die. You will get to realize that your son could have been a heck of lot better if you had tried to understand how the hands / forearms load and work in the swing.
* * * * *
I understand your position. I thought Nyman was right for three years. I was wrong. It is not funny when you realize it too late. What works on the loopy inside pitches will not work later and later arrives with no real pop and adjustment mechanism ingrained and you have wasted the formative years badly." Gee, that first statement is awfully provocative. Sounds almost like the Marshallites telling us all that our kids' arms will literally snap off Dave Dravecky-style if we don't follow the teaching of the Prophet from Zephyrhills, Fla. At some level, I don't worry about 'coulda/shoulda' with my son, 'cuz I have trouble enough getting him to get ready for school in time in the morning, much less counseling him to adhere to the minute details of my teachings on hittng.

Since the post that apparently inspired this was simply my invite to Wogdoggy to get a beer sometime -- heck, I'd enjoying catching a beer with you t0o if we're ever in the same town (so you can show me what I have trouble picking up from your words here) -- I'm not sure how you know what I have and have not tried to learn about "how the hands / forearms load and work in the swing". I am trying to get Ursa Minor to cock his hands a bit more in the style you push, but am more concerned with good lower body action getting into place first.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what position of mine it is that you "understand". If it has something to do with Nyman's teaching (as contrasted with others who have moved on from him), I'm certainly not a disciple of his. What I mostly ascribe to him in my learning is the physics of angular momentum that he convinced me of with his little videos with his CAD/CAM computer tools.

[swingbuster]

I was a little pushey and you took it with a sense of humor... forgive me.

Splitting the helmet is a good start.

I wish too that we could have a beer and I could check his grip, hands, wrist, and elbow position in the set up.

It needs to be perfect to feel right.

My 20 yo is just now trying to learn to study for a test. He is getting ready for school finally. :)

[GFK]

Gee, that first statement is awfully provocative. Sounds almost like the Marshallites telling us all that our kids' arms will literally snap off Dave Dravecky-style if we don't follow the teaching of the Prophet from Zephyrhills, Fla. At some level, I don't worry about 'coulda/shoulda' with my son, 'cuz I have trouble enough getting him to get ready for school in time in the morning, much less counseling him to adhere to the minute details of my teachings on hittng....

UM, you should think about writing editorials. Nice work:atthepc

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: I wish too that we could have a beer and I could check his grip, hands, wrist, and elbow position in the set up.
It needs to be perfect to feel right.

It sounds like a bad joke. Two guys walk into a bar with a 12 year old and a baseball bat . . . Sounds like we'd get tossed out of most bars well before he got into his stance. :grouchy

I think the biggest problem we have to overcome on hand position is a lifelong tendency to drop the bathead to horizontal as the pitch comes in. We've drilled to start the bat completely vertical a la Moises Alou, but in game conditions he reflexively still has it droop. I think a postural adjustment will help that, but I'm open to any other suggestions you might have.

He had a game this summer where we were killing the opponents and he came up in the last inning. I think because the pressure was off (and the pitcher was slow), he suddenly "found" the perfect bat angle in the middle of his at-bat and you could tell he was "on". The count was 3-and-1 and the manager (who'd missed a number of games) gave him the "old" take sign. Thankfully, UMinor either missed it or ignored it and made a picture perfect swing on a low strike and crushed it into centerfield. I'm trying to get him to re-capture the feeling of that stance and hand position.

[swingbuster]

I think the biggest problem we have to overcome on hand position is a lifelong tendency to drop the bathead to horizontal as the pitch comes in. We've drilled to start the bat completely vertical a la Moises Alou, but in game conditions he reflexively still has it droop. I think a postural adjustment will help that, but I'm open to any other suggestions you might have.

Since he was very young the pitch came in loopy and going horizontal with the bat to swing around his body on that plane has become ingrained. At higher level most great players are setting the barrel vertical as they carry the weight in the stride to hit the Lo ball. You can set the plane for lo and adjust to higher but not visa versa without crashing the lead knee( bending through the swing rather than extension through the swing).

Another way if saying it is " you can change dynamically from a diagonal plane to more horizontal but not visa versa."

What he is doing is logical since he sees the swing as a horizontal plane whereby you pull the bat around the body.

All previous tee work might have had the ball about belly button high or higher so it has supported that plane.

He needs some practice off of a tee location that is just above the knees
( his little knees) . Very few commercial tees go that low so you might have to rig one. Also , the tees give you a sense that you have to swing level off of those which further confounds the mind. I made a tee that allows and encourages a kid to swing diagonal. I need to patent it but it really works. You cannot change the hand set until you change to the diagonal plane

He is not used to swinging on the more effective diagonal swing plane and few youth players really are and they need to practice there to make the transition to the higher levels.

So , starting the bat more vertical and entering the diagonal plane from just above it on his NEW TEE location will help. Swinging more down with the hands leading the barrel makes it easier to release the bat tip rather than drag the knob upward


But, If he goes it the yard and hits loopy pitches that fall across a line that is too deep he will revert.


The vertical hand set/ the diagonal plane, is something we see and know is good but he will not always be able to use it on loopy pitches that fall nearer his back foot location playing with his age group

ex: try to hit slow pitch softball that falls almost straight down at your back shoulder vs a flatter pitch that lands nearer your front foot.

[GFK]

... I think the biggest problem we have to overcome on hand position is a lifelong tendency to drop the bathead to horizontal as the pitch comes in. We've drilled to start the bat completely vertical a la Moises Alou, but in game conditions he reflexively still has it droop. I think a postural adjustment will help that, but I'm open to any other suggestions you might have....

Let me start off by saying what the bat does after impact has no bearing on the impact. What the bat does after impact is an outcome of all the movement leading up to impact. You may want to try giving him the cue to "Finish High". For Minor to do this, he is going to have to fight going horizontal with the bat prior to launch. As you stated, postural adjustment very well could be the fix.

[swingbuster]

GFK..

How do you reconcile the low finish of CLemente , Aaron, Schmidt....?

I think he means the bat barrel is 0 degrees at foot plant

[Mark H]

GFK..

How do you reconcile the low finish of CLemente , Aaron, Schmidt....?



He offered the idea as a cue, not a hitting absolute. Thus no need for a reconciliation.

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: He needs some practice off of a tee location that is just above the knees.

GFK said: You may want to try giving him the cue to "Finish High". For Minor to do this, he is going to have to fight going horizontal with the bat prior to launch. As you stated, postural adjustment very well could be the fix. Both very good suggestions. Thanks for your thoughful responses. When he does flatten the bat, he has all sorts of trouble hitting pitches below the waist. Almost all of his good hits last spring were on pitches above the belly button. He did better over the summer on lower pitches, but not surprisingly tended to hit grounders on them.

[swingbuster]

I think when you do both you have executed a swing on the diagonal plane something kids don't know exist.

The all to common wrapped ball exhibits amazingly slow bat speed as a rule

It hits the outside of the baseball and not the center of the back of the ball where compression lives.

IT is usually preceded with a flat launch OR a launch where the batter got to foot plant with his hands really out over the plate.

Conversely, the turning of a more vertical bat back on plane at the cusp ssts up the inside out swing path. At the first part of the hip turn the knob gets redirected toward the oppo box moving away from the belly button.

For pitches inside, they will just open the foot more going to foot plant. They will make the same upper body move on every pitch and adjust to the ball with the lower body.

Five years of study and 30 times watching this and each time you seem to find another pearl buried in there......

http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/batspeed/coiling/coiling.htm

Without plane transition they will usually only set the upper body for the inside pitch each swing. Then there is not readjustment for middle / away going to foot plant and they are stuck their whole life yanking the ball

[GFK]

... When he does flatten the bat, he has all sorts of trouble hitting pitches below the waist. Almost all of his good hits last spring were on pitches above the belly button. He did better over the summer on lower pitches, but not surprisingly tended to hit grounders on them.

I think pitching at the younger levels tends to promote the "flattening out of the bat". Usually the pitchers do not have enough control to keep it across the thighs. Most strikes are belly button to chin.

[Mark H]

I don't think it was a serious question either, but, it was a good question and a serious answer.


I thought it was a funny question but I agree it was a serious answer.

[LClifton]

Jim,
I just got the chance to view this. I think you did a nice job FWIW, from me.

I think there is confusion on just one aspect of the swing. Again you did a nice job putting words with pictures / video.

To take the time to help others see the thoughts you have on the elbow / upper body movement is commendable.

Thanks for sharing it with us.

This comment by Jake was particularly relevant:
Too many of us are viewing suggestions from others with a What can I find wrong with this? stanpoint than we are What can I learn from this? standpoint.