HOF Worthy Black Sox

[PhillyA_man]

Ok...gotta get this one out of my system....

Of the eight infamous members of the 1919 Chicago White Sox, which ones have HOF credentials. If one was to separate them from the scandal, who would you elect?

The eight men included Joe Jackson; pitchers Eddie Cicotte and Claude "Lefty" Williams; infielders Buck Weaver, Arnold "Chick" Gandil, Fred McMullin, and Charles "Swede" Risberg; and outfielder Oscar "Happy" Felsch.

Somewhere you could probably find at least one person pushing for each one to be elected. But in truthfullness, who's got the creds?

(my votes go to Jackson and Cicotte)

[PhillyA_man]

oops! sorry wrong category...could someone please move this to Hall of Fame. Thank You!

[wamby]

None of them do.

[jalbright]

The move's been made.

Joe Jackson, absent the Black Sox situation, has a HOF resume. Cicotte can present a case. The rest of those banned for their involvement in the fix weren't close to good enough IMO. I'm not overly enthused about supporting any of them, but if I had to do so, I'd go for Jackson. I am not overwhelmed by Cicotte's claim based on the career he actually had, and he was much more deeply involved in the fix than Jackson. A gray area guy at best with that kind of baggage can rot in my book.

Jim Albright

[STLCards2]

I would only pick Jackson, but Cicotte isn't too far off.

[KCGHOST]

Joe Jackson was certainly working on an HoF career. For the period 1911-1920 (his other three seasons were cups of coffee) he had 570 RCAA. Excluding players who haven't fulfilled their five year waiting period only Pete Browning and Dick Allen have failed to get into the HoF with that career value.

[SABR Steve]

One consideration should be Buck Weaver. Ty Cobb put him on his all-time team at third. Buck also had the least amount of participation in the scandal.

[jalbright]

One consideration should be Buck Weaver. Ty Cobb put him on his all-time team at third. Buck also had the least amount of participation in the scandal.

I don't think Ty Cobb is infallible, and the record sure doesn't indicate to me that Weaver is deserving, regardless of his degree of complicity in the fix.

Jim Albright

[oscargamblesfro]

jackson would have been in and cicotte maybe....mcmullin was just a bench guy and gandil's rather ordinary career was winding down anyway... i doubt if anyone else would've got in but it'd be interesting to find out if any statistical study has been done about the guys who were more or less in their prime to see what their careers MIGHT have looked like had there been no scandal..

[Fuzzy Bear]

Jackson and Cicotte were the "great" Black Sox.

The Clean Sox had Collins and Faber as HOFers.

That's four truly great players; even the greatest teams don't have more, as a rule.

[soberdennis]

One consideration should be Buck Weaver. Ty Cobb put him on his all-time team at third. Buck also had the least amount of participation in the scandal.
Cobb also called Joe Jackson the "greatest pure hitter" he ever saw.
Jackson hit .356 lifetime. He hit .375 in the Series.
His lifetime BA is third all time behind Cobb and Hornsby.
I have always advocated Jackson's induction. Cicotte probably deserves consideration, too.

[Bill Burgess]

Even though Joe Jackson didn't adjust his stroke to capitalize on the new ball in 1919-20, I think he would have realized that to do so would have been to his advantage. He had the natural power and technique. I think he might have fared much better in the 20's than did Cobb, Speaker, Collins, Wheat, Roush.

[rugbyfreak]

I would only pick Jackson, but Cicotte isn't too far off.

Agree here: Jax a shoo-in, Cicotte gets a no from me, but you could make a case for him, especially if you did the comparison game with guys already in the HOF with similar numbers.

freak

[Fuzzy Bear]

There were guys who MIGHT have been HOFers if they continued to play. Lefty Williams and Happy Felsch come to mind.

Buck Weaver is the most overrated member of the 1919 White Sox; he was a glove man who wasn't all that much with the stick. He was nowhere near the level of Heine Groh. Nowhere near.

[CTaka]

Jackson and Cicotte were the "great" Black Sox.

The Clean Sox had Collins and Faber as HOFers.

That's four truly great players; even the greatest teams don't have more, as a rule.

What about Ray Schalk as a "clean Sox"? He may not be truly great, but he is a hall of famer.

[CTaka]

I would only pick Jackson, but Cicotte isn't too far off.

I would agree with that.

[DoubleX]

Somewhere you could probably find at least one person pushing for each one to be elected. But in truthfullness, who's got the creds?

You really think someone out there will argue that Fred McMullin should be in the Hall of Fame?

[EvanAparra]

You mean 300 career games isn't enough nowadays??

[leecemark]

--He was the verge of breaking out though:D .

[Fuzzy Bear]

What about Ray Schalk as a "clean Sox"? He may not be truly great, but he is a hall of famer.

I forgot. Schalk, it appears, was the first TRUE full-time catcher in baseball history, and deserves more respect than he's gotten.

[YANKEESmmm]

I say yes to Jackson. I'm a little less enthusiastic on Cicotte. At 36 and just over 200 wins he wasn't going to accomplish much more. That being said had he performed well in the 1919 WS added a few more career wins and maybe another successful post season or two.

[Ubiquitous]

I forgot. Schalk, it appears, was the first TRUE full-time catcher in baseball history, and deserves more respect than he's gotten.


Malachi Kittridge says "Hey", so does George Gibson, so does Chief Meyers, so does Oscar Stanage and probably a few more besides that.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Malachi Kittridge says "Hey", so does George Gibson, so does Chief Meyers, so does Oscar Stanage and probably a few more besides that.

Only Gibson and Stanage ever had seasons with 400 ABs or more.

Gibson had a three year run, from 1909 to 1911. Stanage had 503 ABs in 1911, then 400 ABs exactly in 1914. That was it.

Beginning in 1913, Schalk completed the first of seven seasons with over 400 ABs. In addition, he walked more often than Gibson and Stanage. In addition, he had two more seasons with over 390 ABs. Schalk finished his career with 1,727 games at catcher, the record before Al Lopez broke it, I believe.

Schalk is the first true "number one" catcher in baseball history, at least if your criteria is over a period of years. Schalk was a career regular; none of the other guys really were.

[Ubiquitous]

There can only be one first and Schalk was not the first true catcher. Malachi was probably (I doubt it) the first true regular catcher. Silver Flint probably holds that honor. Catching in the 19th century and into the early 20th century was a brutal business. Catchers didn't rack up a lot of playing time because they couldn't stay healthy enough to stay in the lineup. Malachi played exclusively as a C for the Chicago team and he was the main catcher catching the majority of the games in a season when healthy.


Gibson was the Pirates regular for 6 seasons before Schalk even got behind home plate.

Schalk was not the first.

[Gee Walker]

Cicotte threw both a spitter and a knuckleball. If he could have stayed on the straight and narrow, he would have been one of the grandfathered pitchers still allowed to throw the spitter after 1920. Using the spitter doesn't bode well for his career - Stan Coveleski was done at 36, and Burleigh Grimes at 37.

But the knuckleball - Cicotte could have had ten years left in his career, throughout the 1920's. Ten years of Tim Wakefield level performance would add 100-130 wins to his 208. Ten years of Phil Niekro level performance would add 130-160 wins, possibly more. Niekro pitched in a five-man rotation towards the end of his career, with relief pitchers finishing most of his games. Cicotte would have pitched in a four-man rotation and finished the majority of his games, adding to his W-L total.

Add a 150-120 record to what Cicotte already had, which would include a couple of serious decline years at the end of his career, and you have a pitcher with a career W-L record of 358-269. That's not quite as good as Warren Spahn's totals, but better than Don Sutton's.

[Ubiquitous]

I doubt it. Knuckleballers were not like they are today. To a pitcher back then a knuckleball was just another pitch in his bag of tricks. It wasn't something he threw 50 or so times a game.

[Gee Walker]

According to Knuckleball HQ, at http://www.oddball-mall.com/knuckleball/list.htm

Cicotte threw 75% knucklers... kind of like Tom Candiotti.

[Ubiquitous]

I think that the part about the knuckle ball being thrown 75% of the time comes from one quote in the Neyer book in which Cicotte says out of 100 pitches he throws 75 knuckle balls. I honestly don't believe that is true. I think it ties back to the various trick pitches he threw and how they were frowned upon at the time.

Almost nobody besides Cicotte in that quote mentioned the knuckleball being thrown that much, and I would think if you threw it that much it would be much more of an obvious matter. Nobody would be mentioning the shine ball or all the other pitches if he threw them only once or twice a game.

[Gee Walker]

It seems as if the nickname that you were known for at the time you were active was "Knuckles", that it wouldn't have been given to you for your propensity for liking nineteenth-century boxing.

Throughout "Eight Men Out" Cicotte was referred to as a knuckleball pitcher - that his pitches danced, fluttered - properties of the knuckleball ... and not usually the properties of tampered balls, which usually dive down.

Cicotte is referred to as "the knuckleballer" here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Black_Sox_Scandal

and here: http://www.answers.com/topic/eddie-cicotte

and here: http://www.oddball-mall.com/knuckleball/k101.htm

Cicotte actually used his knuckles on the ball, as reported in the article above: "Eddie Cicotte invented the knuckleball grip, but by no means invented the first grip that could produce knuckleball-type movement. In fact, photos of his grip show a variety, all with the simple intent of MINIMIZING rotation IN ANY DIRECTION. This is important to understand. It appears that all he was trying to do was to reduce rotation, period, and that any side-to-side movement was an added bonus."

In an article here http://www.thebaseballpage.com/columns/robinson/000901.htm dated in 2000, there's a quote where Cicotte calls his knuckleball his "dry spitter".

I think Cicotte was viewed as a knuckleball pitcher when he was active - especially late in his career, when he was most effective. His off-year in 1918 mirrors Phil Niekro's 1977, Joe Niekro's 1978, Tim Wakefield's 1999/2000, and Hoyt Wilhelm's 1960 - a mid-career crisis featuring a huge increase in hits allowed per inning. All of these pitchers recovered to have many more effective seasons.

[Ubiquitous]

Cicotte in the minors initially used his knuckles but then switched to more standard knuckleball grip perfected by Summers.


In the first link you have a Wiki entry, which basically is written by anybody who cares too. Answer.com is based on Wiki entries as well. I think the third entry makes a rather good point. Cicotte wasn't throwing a typical knuckleball

"Eddie Cicotte invented the knuckleball grip, but by no means invented the first grip that could produce knuckleball-type movement. In fact, photos of his grip show a variety, all with the simple intent of MINIMIZING rotation IN ANY DIRECTION. This is important to understand. It appears that all he was trying to do was to reduce rotation, period, and that any side-to-side movement was an added bonus."

[rugbyfreak]

Jackson and Cicotte were the "great" Black Sox.

The Clean Sox had Collins and Faber as HOFers.

That's four truly great players; even the greatest teams don't have more, as a rule.

Yes, Red Faber--everyone forgets Red. Assuming he had remained honest for the 1919 WS (he was injured, so Gandill did not approach him), throwing that WS would have been that much more difficult. He had a monster '17 WS, going 3-1, including the clincher over the Giants.

And let me add one note about the spitball: It was about so much more than putting a foreign substance upon the ball to change its aerodynamics. Here's how a classic spitter was thrown:

You applied some slippery substance to your pitching hand ("slippery elm" was the most common in the heyday). You lubed up three fingers: your thumb and first two fingers. You then threw the ball with a fastball motion, but "squeezed" or "ptooied" the ball out of those fingers, much as you would squeeze a watermelon seed out of your fingers. The perfectly thrown spitter arrived at the plate having revolved about 360 degrees, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. From there, the wind took over, much as it does with a knuckler, only it had the additional x-factor of having a foreign substance upon it, making it all the more unpredictable. A ball with no spin is at the whim of the prevailing breeze.

Now, if any of you remember how tough it was to control that seed out of your fingers when you were trying to hit your little brother, imagine how tough that spitter was to throw for strikes. Back in Babe Ruth days one afternoon, we all tried it, and the ball went every which way but over the plate!

So, there were two dirty little secrets about the spitter (which I learned from Gaylord Perry):

1.) Even the masters had little knowledge where the hell it was going; and
2.) Because of this, even they used it a lot less than legend would have us believe. They all had other pitches they used as their staples, and the spitter was as much a psychological weapon as an actual one, with batters wondering when--and if--it was coming. It made them fearful of falling behind two strikes in the count, because, then you KNEW it was coming.

Thanks for listening!

freak

[rugbyfreak]

You really think someone out there will argue that Fred McMullin should be in the Hall of Fame?

Fred should definitely be in the "Wrong Place at the Right Time" HOF. Believe his involvement occurred only because he somehow overhead a conversation between (probably) Gandill and someone else. "Eight Men Out" has it happening as he was in the crapper, as likely a scenario as any. Certainly, the conspirators wouldn't have felt in necessary to include a guy who had played all of 70 games that year and was not expected to have an impact on the WS. Thanks for listening!

freak

[Ubiquitous]

Fred was I believe Gandil's roommate and was bound to know about it. I'm away from my material but if I remember correctly Fred wasn't a choir boy when it came to playing the game of baseball. Again I'm not sure but I believe I have read that Fred's role in the fix was a lot more then just horning in on the money.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Fred should definitely be in the "Wrong Place at the Right Time" HOF. Believe his involvement occurred only because he somehow overhead a conversation between (probably) Gandill and someone else. "Eight Men Out" has it happening as he was in the crapper, as likely a scenario as any. Certainly, the conspirators wouldn't have felt in necessary to include a guy who had played all of 70 games that year and was not expected to have an impact on the WS. Thanks for listening!

freak


Actually, McMullin probably came out ahead on the deal, money-wise; he got money for just showing up.

McMullin's career in baseball was just about done; he may have contemplated being a coach/manager, but what was the likelihood he would have made it to the majors? Whether McMullin came out ahead on the deal or not depends on how much value he placed on his integrity and his good name.

[Ubiquitous]

It is likely that McMullin got no money at all.

The 20 grand that Gandil gets around game 4 is split between Williams, Jackson, Felsch, and Risberg. It is widely believed that Chick kept the 10 grand given to him after game two.

[Fuzzy Bear]

It is likely that McMullin got no money at all.

The 20 grand that Gandil gets around game 4 is split between Williams, Jackson, Felsch, and Risberg. It is widely believed that Chick kept the 10 grand given to him after game two.

I believe that McMullin got SOME money, mainly as "hush money". He did, after all, have guilty knowledge.

[Paul Wendt]

P.S.
During World War I, what is the age range sought by the US armed forces in its mass recruitment --the able-bodied males welcomed with or without special skills?
--

Ray Schalk, Red Faber, and Eddie Collins are in the Hall of Fame. I wrote their names in that order because I imagine them on the diamond at Comiskey Park, "up the middle".

How many Hall of Fame players may be expected from a very strong team?

Beside Jackson and Cicotte,

CF Happy Felsch alone showed major league star capability. He played one wrong fielding position to win the honor available in his day, a place on the "All America" teams named annually by Baseball Magazine. He was 28.1 years old when the scandal broke, with merely six years in the majors and most of the 1918 season missing. He was far behind schedule but he can't be dismissed.

1B Chick Gandil did make the All American League team between Stuffy McInnis and George Sisler. That was a kind of fluke in that firstbase was manned by a weak group, especially in his league. Or one may say kind of a fluke in that McInnis and Gandil both demonstrated no longevity but McInnis was a few years ahead. Gandil retired after the World Series at age 31.9 coming off four mediocre seasons.

--
The others were mediocre players, although Williams was a fine sidekick to Cicotte in 1919 and he was crucial to a secure fix.

P Lefty Williams may have been a great beneficiary of good fortune in his W-L record. Outside the 1919 season he 13-7, 17-8, 22-14 --sum 52-29-- with ERA+ 96, 89, 96(!). His 82-48 career record was a good start to a Hall of Fame career but (a) it was a good start for someone younger than Williams, age 27.6 at scandal, and (b) he wasn't pitching well enough to keep it up.

Weaver and Risberg were mediocre players, ages 30.2 and 26.0 at scandal. Fred McMullin was a substitute.

[Paul Wendt]

Cicotte threw both a spitter and a knuckleball. If he could have stayed on the straight and narrow, he would have been one of the grandfathered pitchers still allowed to throw the spitter after 1920. Using the spitter doesn't bode well for his career - Stan Coveleski was done at 36, and Burleigh Grimes at 37.
The grandfather spitballists were registered by their clubs in advance, before the scandal at the end of the 1920 season.

I have not read contemporary reports but I believe I would know of his listing from modern sources. Indeed, given his prominent place in the Black Sox story and the place of that story in the baseball history hobby, I believe many of us would know of his listing.

[Ubiquitous]

Cicotte's specialty was the shineball not the spitter and his knuckleball isn't the kind of knuckleball that we are used to seeing.

As for as I can tell McMullin got no money. The two players that got nothing were Buck and Fred.

[nyykan_t]

In his last two year Eddie Cicotte just got 50 wins and his last four seasons ERA+ were 174, 98, 174, 115. If he is not banned, it's reasonable to give him 50 more wins and his total inning pitched should be above 4000 innings. 250 wins, 115-120 ERA+, 4000 IP and pitching in a contender should be enough to get him in the Hall.

[Brad Harris]

Shoeless Joe would certainly be in the Hall today were it not for his involvement in the fix and subsequent banishment. Cicotte? Probably not, though he's as good or better than the worst pitchers in the Hall.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Shoeless Joe would certainly be in the Hall today were it not for his involvement in the fix and subsequent banishment. Cicotte? Probably not, though he's as good or better than the worst pitchers in the Hall.


Had the Black Sox not been the Black Sox, they probably would have won a few more pennants, and been known as a dynasty into the early 20s. Cicotte would have been the main beneficary of this; he may have gone into the HOF with Waite Hoyt and Herb Pennock; indeed, he may have gone in before both of them.

[STLCards2]

Had the Black Sox not been the Black Sox, they probably would have won a few more pennants, and been known as a dynasty into the early 20s. Cicotte would have been the main beneficary of this; he may have gone into the HOF with Waite Hoyt and Herb Pennock; indeed, he may have gone in before both of them.


He was certainly better than both of them!

[Ubiquitous]

Had the Black Sox not been the Black Sox, they probably would have won a few more pennants, and been known as a dynasty into the early 20s. Cicotte would have been the main beneficary of this; he may have gone into the HOF with Waite Hoyt and Herb Pennock; indeed, he may have gone in before both of them.

I've wrote a post about this (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=9702) here on Fever about this and have the Sox winning the 1920 and 1921 pennant with the 1922 pennant a tossup. AFter that it doesn't look too good.

[nyykan_t]

I've wrote a post about this (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=9702) here on Fever about this and have the Sox winning the 1920 and 1921 pennant with the 1922 pennant a tossup. AFter that it doesn't look too good.
That should be enough to get Cicotte in the Hall, assuming he had one more good season and a few average to below average seasons.

[spark240]

Most of the Black Sox--probably all of them, other than Shoeless--are overrated because of throwing the Series.

I'm not even convinced that they were a lock to win in 1919, as most people assume, if everything had been on the level.

[Ubiquitous]

That should be enough to get Cicotte in the Hall, assuming he had one more good season and a few average to below average seasons.

Cicotte's game was the dirty game and it is unlikely he would have been able to cope with the new era without his bag of tricks. He would be over 36 and playing a different game. In 1920 he had one of the worst years of his career. His ERA since 1912 and was the second highest of his career. His WHIP was at its highest since 1912 again and was his third highest total of his career.

Make him use clean balls and not allow him to doctor them and what kind of performance can we expect out of this 36+ year old man?

[dgarza]

Joe Jackson and Ed Cicotte had HOF careers by the numbers.
Happy Felsch had strong possibilities.
-----------------------------------------
On a somewhat related note, Heinie Zimmerman also has or could of had a strong HOF case.

[SavoyBG]

One consideration should be Buck Weaver. Ty Cobb put him on his all-time team at third.

More evidence that Cobb was not very perceptive about the value of events and of other players.

[SavoyBG]

Jackson and Cicotte were the "great" Black Sox.

The Clean Sox had Collins and Faber as HOFers.



You forgot clean Ray Schalk.

[SavoyBG]

Even though Joe Jackson didn't adjust his stroke to capitalize on the new ball in 1919-20,

He certainly did capatalize on the new ball in 1920. He had by far his best HR and isolated power year that season, with 12 HRs and an isolated power figure of .207.