Synching upper and lower body

[MSandman]

I had started typing this in the 8-year old thread, then realized I'd be totally hijacking that thread. So I started a new one.

I didn't want to tamper much w/ Kevin's swing this summer, as he was confident and pounding the ball (led his All-Star team in AVG, OBP, OBS, triples and had his first HR).

Now that he's just doing fall rec ball, we're going to start working on improving his mechanics this fall/winter. EDITED: oops, he's also playing on a fall ball travel team, comprised mostly of his All-Star team. So heavy adjustments might have to wait another month.



...

If you could work some BHUT with the hip coil , you would take the top hand out of the early swing (eliminate bat drag the only way you can really totally eliminate it quickly) and have the bottom hand lead in the early swing and perserve the top hand for the whip. That would also make it possible to keep the lead elbow bent and the hands near the armpit instead of going out long. THis kid has the hard part down perfectly which is the hip coil/ carry. When you see one like this better arm action fits it so well IMO

Making his first upper body move BHUT keeping the hands close to the arm pit and turning the knob around instead of pushing the lead arm long can make almost immediate results.

When the lead shoulder/ arm pushes the bat back then the rear shoulder / arm often incorrectly brings it forward and we have named it bat drag. Most people take the wrong approach when " fixing " it. . It becomes a never ending cycle of lead arm pushes bat back and rear arm brings it forward.

Bottom hand drills do not work very well and are not necessary if you pronate the top hand going to foot plant where it cannot lead at foot block.

IF THE FIRST MOVE OF THE REAR ELBOW IS SLIGHTLY UP AND OVER (TOP HAND PRONATED) IN CONCERT WITH THE HIP COIL/ CARRY.

THE BOTTOM HAND WILL LEAD AS THE BAT SEEKS THE PLANE

THE REASON WE USE THE TERM B(HAND)UT IS THAT YOU WANT THE ARMS RELAXED AND FLOWING NOT TIGHTING THE REAR SHOUDLER. WE "THINK" RELATIVE HAND POSITION DURING THE LOADING PROCESS AND THE ARMS FIGURE IT OUT BETTER.

Jim...he seems to have the bat closer to vertical ( splitting the helmet) " weightless" on the way to foot plant. FWIW he is close to perfect if the rear elbow could up and over and the top hand pronate a little during the " carry". As Yeager puts it maintain the " barrel loading over the helmet" for a few more hundreths of a second.
As you can see, he pretty much has the upper body loading sequence "backwards". Compared to ARod, during his very first movement, his hands move up and back (bat knob pointing at umpire) and he flattens the bat, instead of his hands arriving there dynamically during his stride.


What I want to try to get him to do is to start w/ his hands lower and more "in front" of him (as opposed to his elbows pointing sorta 45 degrees "behind" him). He tends to start a bit counter-rotated. From there, as he lifts his foot (yeah, not so high, I know ;)), tilt the bat slightly out of plane (BHUT). Then, lift his rear elbow as he puts his foot down and carries his body forward.

The ultimate goal would be to correct this deeply-engrained launch position:

I swear I could go dig up a 4-year old eteamz post and find the same swing. :(

I'm hoping that the result of this (besides mere prettiness) will be better synching of upper/lower body. Does this make any sense?

Thanks,
Sandman

P.S.
Sorry about the gap in the frames. I didn't think I needed it when I was screen capturing from V1. Then when I saw that I probably should've left a couple, I was too lazy to go find that swing again (still in a full AVI) and redo. I think you can still get the point - that the damage is done very early in the sequence, long before the stride foot comes down/forward.

[swingbuster]

Mike,

He forms some very good angles that are in synch. I see your point. If he started in the 45 slot , loaded to 90 , and back to 45 he would be like ARod

I see your point that he is not " barrrel loading to foot plant" and I think with a more loopy pitch it might not serve him well to try....I don't know.

The contact point for Kevin in that clip is chest high where ARod is thigh high

Balls crossing the thighs are in the " wheel house" for a slightly more vertical bat as it IS on plane to rotate on plane down through the low FB.

[MSandman]

I'll try tonight to find a swing at a lower pitch from the same session.

[swingbuster]

I would like to see the low ball. Albeit unique, there is nothing wrong with what he is doing now. He started with a weighless bat and placed it in the launch slot and started his move to hit

His lead arm connected as the lead knee opened and the lead arm stretch seems to come from the torso linkage vs pushing it back and then swinging.

The proper connection he demonstrated IS the reason he did not top hand drag the bat IMO

The key elements of a good swing are there but I clearly see what you are after in the off season.

Notice the lead leg extension just at bat unhinges on the ball. Notice the head still and the rotation around a stationary axis in Kevin and Arod. Notice the weighless rear foot. THese are good things

[Jake Patterson]

Comments on body angle???

[swingbuster]

Jake,

great illustration that goes to the need to morph to a different axis and box tilt to handle FB down as kids grow older. Kids get at a loss to know how to rotate down through the low pitch. It is unfortunate as that swing yields hard liners and hard GBs that are not wrapped.

I always said that a kid could stay on the back foot and rotate to hit the real loopy pitch at ages 7-8 because that was on plane.

The plane changes over time and coaches must be aware of the effect that can have on the player and the swing.

Mentally , kids reach the higher leagues still feeling the need to swing up and worse waiting for an inside pitch to swing up and pull. We spend considerable time overcoming that thought process. It takes some work to change from and outside / in upper cut to an inside/ out swing with the hands staying ahead of the barrel

I have pointed out many times before that tilting the box helped hitter handle the low ball and it is my personal feeling that it helps with the outside pitch as well.

Evidence of the tilted box is the lowering of the lead elbow to closer to the chest and the raising of the rear elbow. The bat goes to splitting of the helmet( or more vertical) and the hands more BHUT . Tip to tip elbow distances do not change.

These images show BHUT and " barrel loading over helmet to foot plant in Arod and not in Kevin. IT is often overlooked that BHUT loading keeps the back shoulder UP to foot plant making it easier to drive the low FB back flatter through the infield

Both hitters sent the ball back in the direction from whence it came

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

I am personally a BIG believer in carryover from overhand throw. I would work on good throwing mechanics at same time. The Wolforth program incorportaing backwards shaping from Nyman is good as is Jaeger's long toss.

For more direct carryover/sequence/details, Hodge's BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape is very good but hard to get a hold of.

Understanding what is similar and different between throw and swing can be very useful.

[MSandman]

Comments on body angle???

Jake,

Thanks for taking the time.

Though the body angle likely does impede a lot of proper movements later in the swing... is it really the cause or is it just an effect of something earlier (watch the bat).


Do we then ask the same question about the bat (seeing it's not just moving all by itself and there are probably several ways to make it move the way it is)? :crazy Watch the lead elbow rise and the rear elbow push back (towards 3B dugout, if it were there). Compare that to how "quiet" ARod's upper body and arms are during his initial moves (before really carrying his stride leg out). Also notice the major postural difference even this early in the swing, as well as what Donny refers to as BHUT (Bottom Hand Under Top) in ARod, but not in Kevin... resulting in totally opposite bat movement. This might explain what often looks like he's left his hands behind the rotation - he's disconnected his arms (and the bat) from his torso before he's even started most of the swing. :(

Is this all caused by him subconsciously feeling the need to pre-counter-rotate and get on plane, so that he can just turn from there (not realizing that he'll then have to push the bat to get it down to a lower pitch)??? Does this move explain why most of his power shots are in the RCF gap, but he doesn't often pull anything except GBs to SS?

FWIW, I'm reasonably sure that he exhibits these same flaws on slightly lower pitches too.

My challenge will be to convince him that much of the success he's had through All-Stars, and playoffs before that, and the last few games of the regular season... might have been due to not really facing good/fast pitching. Not that they were "easy/slow", but rather more "medium". But he's trying out for an AAU team for next Spring, and I truly believe that his current swing could be too slow to get around on good pitching w/ the same success. He has excellent hand/eye coordination, but I don't think that'll save him if his swing takes this long to develop.

The funny/frustrating thing tho is... I can have him do dry swings in the family room and he can move his body exactly like ARod's. But w/ a ball, completely opposite. I will try to film this this weekend, just so you don't think I'm nuts. ;) But then is it just a matter of a few more thousand reps?

Thanks,
Sandman

[MSandman]

Mike-

I am personally a BIG believer in carryover from overhand throw. I would work on good throwing mechanics at same time. The Wolforth program incorportaing backwards shaping from Nyman is good as is Jaeger's long toss.

For more direct carryover/sequence/details, Hodge's BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape is very good but hard to get a hold of.

Understanding what is similar and different between throw and swing can be very useful.

Tom, do you have a link to where I might find Wolforth's material? Thanks.

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

Try http://www.pitchingcentral.com/

or phone:

281-587-8754 or

281-298-6319

[Jake Patterson]

Swing,
Is this what you refer to as BHUT?

[fungo22]

Comments on body angle???



Kevin is launching rotation with his legs, which is jump-started with momentum created with his stride/weight shift. He is not loading and unloading his middle.

The relatively lower rear shoulder is due to his "dropping" his shoulder/hands to set the swing path. More important for his rotation is the angle of his hips compared to Arod: Notice that Arod's are loaded ("cocked") where Kevin's have already started opening to allow his hands to come through. Notice also the open front knee.

Or so it seems to me.

[swingbuster]

Swing,

Is this what you refer to as BHUT?

We use the term to get the " barrel Loaded" more vertical and maintained to near foot plant. ( Yeager's work)

It created more resistance at the shoulders at the cusp. It sets up the top hand release/ pop.

I use the term for kids to show the hand position because kids can understand and set it . In reality it does many good things if used right

[MSandman]

Kevin is launching rotation with his legs, which is jump-started with momentum created with his stride/weight shift. He is not loading and unloading his middle.

The relatively lower rear shoulder is due to his "dropping" his shoulder/hands to set the swing path.
Yes, but WHY is he dropping them? My contention is that because they're too far up/back, due to the preload "push" he gives them - all part of his way of getting the bat on plane from an upright position.


More important for his rotation is the angle of his hips compared to Arod: Notice that Arod's are loaded ("cocked") where Kevin's have already started opening to allow his hands to come through. Notice also the open front knee.

Or so it seems to me.
If I get some time over the next couple days, I'd like to superimpose a barrel over both hitters' torsos, and extending up a bit higher than the bat. I think we'd see that ARod keeps his hands and the bat inside the barrel, whereas Kevin immediately pushes his hands and bat outside it and crashes the bat on the back/upper rim of the barrel.

Would that image convey a mental image to strive for?


Fungo, thank you for your input. I agree w/ you, and think that simply developing better posture might get his hips and lower body in a better position. Coupled w/ the upper body changes noted above, I think we'd have 2 solid goals to work on this off-season.

Thanks everyone.

[jbooth]

Kevin is launching rotation with his legs, which is jump-started with momentum created with his stride/weight shift.

Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the rotation is coming from the weight of his leg falling forward. I need clarification, because rotation DOES get launched by the legs, it can't been done effectively, any other way.


He is not loading and unloading his middle.

If you mean "the middle" is the pelvic bone, it can only be moved by the muscles that attach from the upper leg bone, to the pelvic bone.

The muscles in the middle (belly button to bottom rib) attach the rib and spine to the upper pelvic bone to allow shoulder rotation. I have yet to understand the PCR crowd's statement of "move the middle." You all say it alot, but you don't say how you believe it is done.

The legs turn the pelvic bone and stretch the muscles in "the middle" which then, in turn contract against the pelvic bone and turn the shoulders. Anatomy 101.

He doesn't have a problem in the leg/hip area. You are correct that he is dropping his back shoulder and hands by tilting reward, rather than turning the shoulder in and down toward the plate. The pitch is higher than the one A-Rod is swinging at, so his posture isn't the same, but he should have turned the shoulder at the ball, so to speak, rather than drop it and then lift it back up.

[jbooth]

Yes, but WHY is he dropping them? My contention is that because they're too far up/back, due to the preload "push" he gives them - all part of his way of getting the bat on plane from an upright position.

I think it is just an incorrect "feeling" he has. He probably has been told that the shoulder needs to dip, but he is dipping it incorrectly. It correctly goes down if your spine is tilted toward the plate. He is almost vertical.

Also, he thinks he is lifting his leg the way A-Rod does, but he isn't. He is lifting the leg and simultaneously raising the front hip. The hip goes up with the leg. A-Rod's hip is pretty much stationary and he just raises the leg. When your son raises the hip, the spine tilts, then the shoulder drops. Now, when he goes into front foot strike, he is out of correct posture.

He flattens his bat early, but that isn't a big problem, if he maintains the hands at the shoulder, and the 90 degree forearm/bat angle.

He needs to keep the weight on the inside of the back knee when he lifts his leg, and keep the hips horizontal as he lifts the leg. A-Rod doesn't rock back when he lifts the leg, he just lifts it. There is a slight shift back, but mostly it is an unweighting of the front foot by just breaking the post, if you will, not by swaying back and transferring the weight that was on the front, to the back.

[Mark H]

I have yet to understand the PCR crowd's statement of "move the middle." You all say it alot, but you don't say how you believe it is done.

.

You can find clarification in Dixon's book and Steve's materials.

[jbooth]

You can find clarification in Dixon's book and Steve's materials.

Thanks, but I already know exactly how the body accomplishes the rotation. I have simply never heard any PCR person explain how it is done. All I've heard is "you need to move the middle."

Middle isn't defined and how you move whatever that is; is never explained.

Load and unload the pelvis is another frequent statement that makes no sense, and I haven't read what it means, or how it is supposed to be done. The pelvis is essentially, always loaded, every body part is attached to it in some way. It turns, and can/may turn back and forth, but I don't know what "load the pelvis" means. Load it with what?

[Mark H]

My answer to each of your questions would be the same.

[wheelhouse]

Mark,

I have been reading your Posts on different Forums for a number of years. I never recall you answering anyone’s questions. Your standard reply is: watch video, read Dixon and buy Steve’s DVDs.

How about an answer to Mr. Booth’s question; in "Mark’s words”? You have stated that you watch a ton of video, have read Dixon and certainly you must own Steve’s DVDs. Mr. Booth’s question should be easy for you.

[wheelhouse]

Mark,

I almost forgot, after reading this thread:
http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php

It appears the “posse” could be losing its Chief Deputy.

[jbooth]

Mark,

I almost forgot, after reading this thread:
http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php

It appears the “posse” could be losing its Chief Deputy.

Sounds like Teacherman/Ohfer finally understands the hip/shoulder movement I've been describing for a couple of years. He's almost got the arm part too, but not quite. Nice to see that he actually does have the capacity to change his thinking. Too bad he never did it here.

The huge problem is WORDS. Quite often a person processes and interpretes and conjures up an image from a word or phrase completely different from what the author of the words meant. Much of what is discussed/debated on this forum turns into arguments, when in reality the various people are actually in agreement, the words just get in the way.

SwingBuster, Tom Guerry and the PCR crowd and myself have more in common than many people think. The problem is; each has their own fundamental beliefs and their own way of describing their ideas and that leads to the belief that the idea is different when it isn't.

We get too complicated also, IMO. The swing IS complicated and it is easier said than done, to swing well, but it is a simple concept.

Keep your hands back near your shoulder;
Turn the hips first, and let them pull the shoulders around;
keep the hands at the shoulder and let the shoulders move the hands around;
maintain the arm/elbow angles as the hands move so that the bathead stays back;
release the bathead last;

and knock the heck out of the ball.

[tom.guerry]

There is not much difference in the various adequate descriptions of high level swing.

There is a bIG difference on ones based on the Nyman approach where there is overemphasis on hook as compensation for poor loading/cusp/direction understanding.

Follow Nyman and you get a swing rarely found in nature,the late connection spinhook. Be careful what you buy into there.

Mark H maybe you can clarify this for me. Dixon says torso does not include shoulders. Steve E includes shoulders. Does it matter ?

[LClifton]

The huge problem is WORDS. Quite often a person processes and interpretes and conjures up an image from a word or phrase completely different from what the author of the words meant. Much of what is discussed/debated on this forum turns into arguments, when in reality the various people are actually in agreement, the words just get in the way.

You are correct, IMO.

[fungo22]

Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the rotation is coming from the weight of his leg falling forward. I need clarification, because rotation DOES get launched by the legs, it can't been done effectively, any other way. I should have said his swing is jump-started with his stride/weight shift.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what you mean by rotation getting launched by the legs.


If you mean "the middle" is the pelvic bone, it can only be moved by the muscles that attach from the upper leg bone, to the pelvic bone.

The muscles in the middle (belly button to bottom rib) attach the rib and spine to the upper pelvic bone to allow shoulder rotation. I have yet to understand the PCR crowd's statement of "move the middle." You all say it alot, but you don't say how you believe it is done.

Positon yourself between two chairs and lift your feet off the ground by straightening your arms (as if on parallel bars). Now rotate your hips. Snap them quickly like a cat flipping over in mid air. I'm confident you are not using your legs to rotate your hips. Are you using your arms to rotate? Not really; the arms are just providing the "platform" or the "suspension system."

This is pretty much the role of the legs in "supporting" hip rotation. At least that is my understanding of what's going on.

The "middle" is not the muscles from the belly button to the bottom ribs. The "middle" is a bunch of muscles around your hips, your butt and just above the butt in the lower back. Stick out your butt. Bow your back and lift your butt. Push it toward the pitcher. Which muscles are stretching and contracting? I just finished doing all of these movements both with my feet on the ground and with my feet off the ground.* Using the same muscles: the "middle."

Rotation from the Middle 101

* Then I did an L-sit, and then a handstand into a backwards somersault dismount.

[LClifton]

Also notice the major postural difference even this early in the swing,
I would agree. Cue: keep your butt out, tuck your belt line in. ???

Is this all caused by him subconsciously feeling the need to pre-counter-rotate and get on plane, so that he can just turn from there (not realizing that he'll then have to push the bat to get it down to a lower pitch)??? Does this move explain why most of his power shots are in the RCF gap, but he doesn't often pull anything except GBs to SS? FWIW, I'm reasonably sure that he exhibits these same flaws on slightly lower pitches too.
Mike, I suspect if Kevin will "keep the belly tucked"....the over flattening of the bat and the swing plane / path will improve. Perhaps not totally,,, but once the hands go to the position his are in, it's a long way around to contact. I think your observation on this is accurate.


But he's trying out for an AAU team for next Spring, and I truly believe that his current swing could be too slow to get around on good pitching w/ the same success. He has excellent hand/eye coordination, but I don't think that'll save him if his swing takes this long to develop.
He will get quicker. Bat angle set, maintain it, go.
I think this,,,,he's gonna get it. Also, I know your dilemma in making changes during a time when he needs to remain as productive as possible. It's hard to know when to implement things. I don't think he's far away, at all.

Lclifton

[Jake Patterson]

Sounds like Teacherman/ Nice to see that he actually does have the capacity to change his thinking. Too bad he never did it here.
He also seems like he has also developed a better way to present his thoughts.

[jbooth]

Positon yourself between two chairs and lift your feet off the ground by straightening your arms (as if on parallel bars). Now rotate your hips. Snap them quickly like a cat flipping over in mid air. I'm confident you are not using your legs to rotate your hips.

That's true because you're not on your legs, the hips are being turned by the muscles that connect from the rib and spine area to the upper pelvic bone. The fact that your arms are supporting the weight, provides the immoveable object that the muscles can pull from to turn the hips. Your rib cage and shoulder bone are stationary and the muscles pull on the hips that have nothing to resist against to prevent the movement. Your legs are dangling and moving because they are connected to the bottom of the pelvis.

When you are standing on your feet, the opposite occurs. The ground is stationary and immovable, and the rib cage, shoulders and arms have no resistence. When the muscles that connect the legs to the bottom of the pelvis activate, they pull on the pelvis from several directions and move the legs, which move the pelvis, which in turn moves the shoulders.


The "middle" is not the muscles from the belly button to the bottom ribs. The "middle" is a bunch of muscles around your hips, your butt and just above the butt in the lower back.

OK, and some of those middle muscles connect from the middle to the legs, and some connect from the middle to the lower back and the lower part of the rib cage. You don't seem to understand the connections, and which ones move which bones. The middle can be turned from the top or the bottom, but when you are swinging a bat, the initial movement of the middle needs to come from the muscles that connect the legs to the middle. The shoulders rotate by using the muscles that connect the middle to the spine and ribs.


Stick out your butt. Bow your back and lift your butt. Push it toward the pitcher. Which muscles are stretching and contracting? I just finished doing all of these movements both with my feet on the ground and with my feet off the ground.* Using the same muscles: the "middle."

You may think or feel that they are the same muscles, but you don't yet understand which ones are moving you in each situation.

I've studied anatomy off and on all my life, and I've done a LITTLE study of kinesiology. I'm not an expert, but I honestly think I have a deeper understanding, and have done more study in this area than you. I could be wrong, but your statements above lead me to believe that I am not.

If you are truly interested in knowing in detail how the bones are moved in swing rotation, I might take the time to explain my understanding of it. If you just want to debate and say I'm wrong, then I'll pass.

In the meantime, here are a couple of good sites on anatomy you might want to browse;

http://www.innerbody.com/index.html

The next one is really good; click on the muscular system and skeletal system

http://www.getbodysmart.com/

[fungo22]

I was trying to help you understand what it meant to rotate "from the middle." But never mind, Jim. Your "instructional video" has convinced me you've got it nailed, and I'm out of my league. Your lifelong "off and on" study of anatomy puts my understanding to shame. Forget rotating "from the middle." Use your freakin' legs. That pro player in a slump is damned lucky to have you.

[jbooth]

I was trying to help you understand what it meant to rotate "from the middle." But never mind, Jim. Your "instructional video" has convinced me you've got it nailed, and I'm out of my league. Your lifelong "off and on" study of anatomy puts my understanding to shame. Forget rotating "from the middle." Use your freakin' legs. That pro player in a slump is damned lucky to have you.

Are you being serious, or sarcastic?

[MSandman]

Yes, but WHY is he dropping them? My contention is that because they're too far up/back, due to the preload "push" he gives them - all part of his way of getting the bat on plane from an upright position.

If I get some time over the next couple days, I'd like to superimpose a barrel over both hitters' torsos, and extending up a bit higher than the bat. I think we'd see that ARod keeps his hands and the bat inside the barrel, whereas Kevin immediately pushes his hands and bat outside it and crashes the bat on the back/upper rim of the barrel.

Would that image convey a mental image to strive for?


Fungo, thank you for your input. I agree w/ you, and think that simply developing better posture might get his hips and lower body in a better position. Coupled w/ the upper body changes noted above, I think we'd have 2 solid goals to work on this off-season.

Thanks everyone.

Well, I'm not sure how much value this image has, but it WAS fun to create. :D I know their bodies aren't centered within the barrel; I was trying to anchor the right side of the barrel against their lead shoulder, as well as make the barrel wide enough to include their hands at least touching it.



Some points that might be worth noting:

1. SHOULDER TILT: Obviously, the barrel in which they are swinging is much more vertical (from left to right, not just posture) in ARod than in Kevin, where it tilts back rather severely. Maybe Slugger (who has his own thread about his coach being concerned w/ dropping his rear shoulder) will see this? As I've suggested before, I think the incorrect upright posture leads Kevin to use his early shoulder drop to get the bat on plane to where the ball will be. I would guess that the severe rearward tilt of this barrel is what leads to Kevin's "cutoff finish" on many swings at lower pitches. What I mean is that just after contact, the bat seems to deflect and his lead elbow ends up chicken-winging across his body. I've tried before to explain to him that his BODY/TORSO is rotating on one plane, but his HANDS are bringing the bat down to the ball on another. It seems to cause a bit of a "geometric collision". Getting the hands moving along the top of this barrel's rim would seem to yield the bat moving in a plane that is matched to the plane of the turning shoulders.

2. MAINTAINING THE BOX: In ARod, you see the oft-referred-to "box" being formed. In this case, you can see the hands and lead elbow both moving almost directly along the top rim of the barrel superimposed over his torso through frame 6. By frame 4, Kevin's lead elbow has risen out of the barrel and his hands are far behind the barrel's rim.

I do believe that most of the issues in my son's swing stem from a lack of executing proper posture during the stride. If he bent over more, he would need to drop his rear shoulder to set the swing plane. My next step will be to film him taking some dry swings - where he is much better at doing this than live.

3. BAT POSITION: Notice how ARod's bat appears to stay within the outer wall of the cylinder (imagine the barrel continued upward over the bat). His bat pretty much never leaves the barrel. But Kevin's bat starts outside the barrel and it stays flat and outside of it.

Anyway, if this image can help anyone else draw some relevant/interesting conclusions, then let's hear it. As I said, it was something I had been wanting to draw anyway. ;) Maybe I can pipe it into Kevin's dreams at night until he decides he wants to emulate it more. :)

Regards,
Sandman

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

Fantastic stuff.

Another way to think of this barrell/cylinder stuff is in terms of showing when bathead launch occurs which should be when "cusp" (torso stretch) reverses. The best definition of launch is when the bathead (actually center of mass of bat) gets outside radius of handpath after which there is a self feeding acceleration as described by Nyman in his letter to Mankin:

http://setpro.com/NEWWEB/best%20of%20max00.htm

This is hard to estimate, but probably best seen in bird's ey view motionanalysis as with Peavy :

http://peavynet.com/news/handpaths.htm

NOTE: one curve shows bat tip, another shows handpath, see where bat tip gets outside of handpath which would be slightly before center of mass gets out of radius.

This does not occur until near what is traditionally thought of as the "lag" position due to the way the body is moving forward and the sequnec of coil/uncoil of parts. This handpath radius cylinder would wider cylinder due to the "linear" nature of handpath prior to launch (CHP or tightening handpath from launch to contact).

Some other thoughts:

You might review Dixon and get a hold of Hodge's BIOMECHANICBASEBALL.

A useful way that Dixon describes getting from spin (mid level swing) to whip (high level swing) is that you have to ADD a middle phase to the swing to get to whip. The whip is a longer swing (starts earlier/dance with pitcher show your backside when he shows his), but much of the early prpearation is generic and then permits a much quicker execution/much later and more successful adjustment in timing and space and ability to check swing late.

Notice that Arod is doing something (as compared to kevin) with the upper body/arms that is creating some sort of resistance so that his shoulders stay back while the hips open, then they turn quickly and fully to contact. He is doing something different in the middle of the swing. What he does before this must get him to this point in the right sequence of positions.

Epstein calls it winding rubber band as you stride to toe touch.

Lau/peavy call this pulling the knob with the lead arm not shoulder.

Slaught says the swing starts when the back elbow begins to slot.

Hodge says the KEY to synching upper and lower body in high level pattern (throw or swing) is that the front leg turns open when the back elbow starts down.

This is arm action before scap tilt/turn which is essential to creating resistance/ keeing upper body/shoulders back/getting a good cusp in the right place for a quick swing well matched to contact location.

Hips and hands are turning together/in synch while shoulders stay reactively back.bat uncocking, lead leg turning front foot open, body coiling/rubber band winding, and sitting to keep muscles stretching.

In throwing, Hodge says "when the throwing arm starts up, the front thigh turns over" which he thinks is best describes as "synchronized external rotation".

The synched action of the limbs at either end are what control the coil of the middle. The arm action putds hands in control and can get the momentum into the bathead efficiently without wasting energy overrotating the earlier links in the chain.

Then this is followed by the "drop and tilt". Scaps slaved to hands/arms then tilt out of plane with hips and bat to create optimal cusp and plane. This is when you get the bat blur.

Quick last stretch/cusp is formed up until about "lag" position.

Then bathead launches "in plane" (not exactly since the body links/parts are moving) to contact.

The Dixon description is somewhat adequate for explaining the way momentum is created and transferred, but it has little to do with plane matching or the feel aspects of the high level swing which I think Williams/Epstein are best at describing (keep things in context of how to HIT optimally at the highest levl, not just swing).

[MSandman]

This was the last image I'd posted over there, showing how much front shoulder drop and prestride sway he has in dry/tee swings:


But since that post, I've been reviewing some live BP video from a couple weeks ago (that I had posted a swing of on Teacherman's site). Live, he doesn't dip the front shoulder; he still dips the rear one because he is too upright.

Maybe instead of all this dry/tee swing drill stuff, I need to just focus more on live BP (or soft toss, just something live) and having him develop better posture? (as Jim suggest back in the fall :( ) Then see what happens? I mean, the dry/tee swings are SOOO different from live (at least regarding the early front shoulder dip) that maybe I'm wasting my time w/ those??? :confused: But I kinda got away from the posture focus because the dry/tee swings he was taking w/ a tilted posture were even worse than these (his front elbow almost touched his lead knee at its highest!). Maybe the effort would've been better spent abandoning the tee/dry work, but continuing the conscious focus on better posture - in his live BP setting?

Here's a clip of a handful of live BP swings. This was his first time hitting live since last fall tho (not saying his mechanics are any different, just that I certainly cut him some slack on the lack of consistent great contact ;)).
Kevin - live BP (http://members.cox.net/dsanda/Kevin-BP1.mp4)

The coach was only ~25' away and standing, so the pitches were coming in a bit downward ("loopy", as swingbuster would say ;)). When I pitched the other night from the same distance, I sat on a bucket to get the pitches on more of a line. But I forgot to setup the camcorder. I suspect his swing would be the same tho.

Appreciate thoughts on whether to abandon the dry/tee swing stuff and focus on live swings of some sort WITH better posture? Thank you.

[Jake Patterson]

Comments on body angle???



I still have the same issue with body angles...

[MSandman]

Yes, I fully understand that to be an issue. But just telling him "stride to balance" and "keep your head over your belly button", etc. do not work. What does?

[Jake Patterson]

Yes, I fully understand that to be an issue. But just telling him "stride to balance" and "keep your head over your belly button", etc. do not work. What does?

In lieu of the the high long stride have you ever had him just try a short front toe tap forward?

The white line shows his foot path in this particular clip - the yellow shows what might be better..

[MSandman]

Yes, not in awhile tho. He gets/looks very unathletic from a no-stride, so I hesitate to remove it. Maybe better to reduce it. AAMOF, I just discussed w/ him a few days ago that I would like to try putting a baseball glove down a few inches in front of his foot (maybe only allowing about HALF of what his current stride length is).

If I understand what you're suggesting... that by reducing the stride, IOW, the distance he REACHES out w/ his lead leg, he might be better able to keep his head centered over his lower body? I've thought the same, but haven't actually DONE the "glove on the ground" stride thing yet.

Thanks Jake.

As I've said before, the diagnosis seems a lot easier than the prescription. We can all see that he doesn't shift his upper body along w/ his lower during his stride. He does a better job of that w/ dry/tee swings, but his upper body has so much extra time, that he FILLS it w/ excess/bad arm/shoulder movement. :( But vs. live pitching, he hangs back - probably because he realized in mid-stride that "I don't have time to finish shifting my upper body to match what I've started w/ my lower body, so I'm going from HERE!" ;)

Finding a way to get him to continue forward w/ his upper body vs. live pitching would be very helpful.

[Jake Patterson]

If I understand what you're suggesting... that by reducing the stride, IOW, the distance he REACHES out w/ his lead leg, he might be better able to keep his head centered over his lower body? I've thought the same, but haven't actually DONE the "glove on the ground" stride thing yet.

Thanks Jake.

I feel it's just too much extraneous movement.

Check Molitor from Siggy's. Nice short and compact. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro2?p=40&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[MSandman]

Oh, I'm not refuting that lots of pros stride less (Cabrera, Ortiz, etc.). They also tend to start wider in their stance too.

Any thoughts on whether to ditch the tee/dry swing practice and just focus on live? The 2 swing patterns are SOOOOO different.

[Jake Patterson]

Oh, I'm not refuting that lots of pros stride less (Cabrera, Ortiz, etc.). They also tend to start wider in their stance too.

Any thoughts on whether to ditch the tee/dry swing practice and just focus on live? The 2 swing patterns are SOOOOO different.

Have you tried a hitting stick? I find it better than a tee..

[MSandman]

I do have a Hit-n-Stik, but I haven't filmed him hitting it in a long time. We use it more for game warmups. I would think it would be similar to the tee, lots of extra time - unless I MOVE it towards him, so that I can control how much (little) time he has to fill w/ slop.

[Jake Patterson]

Oh, I'm not refuting that lots of pros stride less (Cabrera, Ortiz, etc.). They also tend to start wider in their stance too.

Any thoughts on whether to ditch the tee/dry swing practice and just focus on live? The 2 swing patterns are SOOOOO different.

Caitlin may be a better example
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic?p=9&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[MSandman]

Yup. And she also starts wider. Thanks.

[dannyboy]

Mike,

Answering you, No.
Kevin and Arod may very well have the same reaction time (although it is unlikely). Do you know what Kevin’s reaction time is to simple choice? Have you ever tested it? How about complex reaction time? Have you ever tested that?


Ray,

Are you suggesting that, because there is different reaction time, that their mechanics should be visibly different too? I don't think I'd agree w/ that.

Not here to debate.
Suggesting that, because there is different available time to react, that their mechanics cannot be relatively compared.




And a possible reason why Kevin must start his elbow down early, when he is being thrown to from 25 ft.

[MSandman]

Then why does he also start his elbow down early when thrown to from 46' in a game?

[swingbuster]

Mike,

I have not follwed this thread much but you simple question is interesting

I think kids start to line their back elbow up on the swing plane before they get the foot down

[dannyboy]

Mike,

how he has learned (so far).

i am sorry, i am rushed to work and tied up this evening (and possibly tomorrow).
please know, my true intent is to help kevin (at such a crucial age), and give you my perspective (and you can do with it what you want). and if you want to discuss, i will be here maybe tomorrow night, but certainly friday. or if you would rather discuss by email, fine. i'm really not looking to puff my chest.

how he learns, is infinitely more important to know, than how we teach.

[MSandman]

Mike,

I have not follwed this thread much but you simple question is interesting

I think kids start to line their back elbow up on the swing plane before they get the foot down

Definitely! But WHY? In Kevin's case... maybe it's a posture issue? He's so upright that he HAS to drop his elbow to get the bat on plane.

[MSandman]

Yes Ray. Please do stop back when you get some more time.

[dannyboy]

with that, - sounds like you don't want any opinion from me. very well.

[MSandman]

Huh?

You said "and if you want to discuss, i will be here maybe tomorrow night, but certainly friday."

And I politely replied: "Yes Ray. Please do stop back when you get some more time."

I may or may not agree w/ what you will offer, but how is that "not wanting your input"?

[dannyboy]

Mike,

First, my apologies. I foolishly mistook your response to be intentionally sarcastic. There was absolutely no good basis for me to interpret it that way, and I hope that you will forgive me and my wrong assumption.

What I mean when I say that I’m more concerned with how hitters learn as opposed to how coaches teach, is the “how” of nonconscious processing of stimulus-response. Procedural memory. Like, being able to ride a bike without being conscious of how you execute the procedure. You can’t teach procedural memory (you can influence it, however, both correctly and incorrectly), and that’s what I believe you’re up against with Kevin’s elbow drop. Kevin’s problem-solving procedure. Trying to illicit an implicit response from an explicit directive is a gargantuan task. Sure visual aids help, but the correct physical response must be coordinated to the relevant physical stimulus.

I wish I had your video skills, Mike. In fact, I had suggested in an email to another that I would really like to work on timing and speed-accuracy trade-off research with you.

Anyhow, let’s try something (if you are willing):

Let’s look at video in a different way.
I remember a thread at Shawn’s in which I asked everyone when they thought the swing started. There were a variety of responses but, I personally like to look at the bat head to be the key to “start”. In all cases it is not the best, but I certainly always count it when reviewing. And to especially compare it with body part movement stages and frames to contact.

Please review “Kevin-BP1”

If when you open the quicktime, I refer to that frame as “0”. By that standard, and advancing 1,2,3…etc., there are 396 action frames and one non-action frame at the end (397 clicks).
Advance frame by frame through the video and write down the frame that you first consider the “bat head” to “start”. Also write down the frame that you consider to be the “contact” frame. For example: In Kevin’s first swing I consider frame “27” to be the start, and frame “34” to be contact. Please, do that for the entire video. Post your findings and we will discuss. (if you disagree with my example, then let’s discuss that).

[MSandman]

Ray,

Sorry, but I missed this reply since you posted it and only found it now. We're heading out for practice in a few mins, but I'll get back to you early this week.

My quick answers are:

1. I agree that there seems to be something missing in my teaching - this "do this, move here, step there..." approach is probably not how high-level hitters got where they are and it's not really getting him anywhere either. :(

2. I concur w/ your frame 27 bathead moves and 34 at contact on his first swing. Swing 2 = 19/26, 3 = 29/36, 4 = 33/39, 5 = 16/23, 6 = 29/37, 7 = 21/29, 8 = 25/32, 9 = 22/29, . Ok, I get it... he has a 7-frame (slow) swing (not that I didn't know that already ;)). Not-so-coincidentally, in his case, the bathead appears to first move when his rear elbow first starts to come down - quite a bit before his stride foot even lands.

FWIW, here's yesterday and today's efforts. In between, I spoke w/ FlippJ and he recommended focusing on "developing dynamic posture". So that's the swing on the right (outside in 30 degrees today ;)).



Unfortunately, instead of setting his posture WHILE lifting his stride foot, he's setting it BEFORE lifting it. He's also still loading the upper body too early (turning elbows toward catcher).

Tho this swing resulted in a fugly lunge, that wasn't our concern during this practice session - so I'm not gonna get hung up on that. We were trying to get him to stay bent and not stand up.

Thanks for taking the time,
Mike

[TwinEngine]

Which one of these clips does Pujols stay bent over and not raise up as he swings?

Pujols (http://recruit.hittingillustrated.com/Library.htm)

[MSandman]

Sorry I wasn't clear... we weren't trying to get him to "stay bent" during the swing (tho he did). Rather, during the stride because in the past, when we've tried to start w/ more posture in the stance, he tended to stand up and lose it during the stride.


I think I understand what you're suggesting (that everyone stands up during the swing). But even Pujols - tho he raises up slightly at contact - is still basically maintaining most of the posture he established earlier. IOW, his back is nowhere near vertical.

[TwinEngine]

For proper weight shift, hip clearance and momentum, you have to come out of your tilt as you swing, IMO.

Maintaining the tilt until after you turn the corner means you can't swing until after you turn the corner.

Mlb hitters swings are launched before they turn the corner.

[MSandman]

For proper weight shift, hip clearance and momentum, you have to come out of your tilt as you swing, IMO.
Yes, but in order to come out of your tilt, you first have to get some, don't you? :p

Look at Kevin's lack of tilt just yesterday in the cage vs. today outside.

[TwinEngine]

I have no problem with Kevins' tilt.

I don't believe it is a priority to get you to where you want to be.

[swingbuster]

Mike the high leg kick and resulting LONG stride makes the mechanics of block then lead leg extension a little off maybe

The center of pressure of the front foot is to far out too finish off the hip turn with power.

The long stride( more of a reach) makes it hard to stay head over belt buckle at foot plant so he is tilted( un-leveraged from leg and lead shoulder) before the time for lateral shoulder tilt.

That all lead to a weak upper body tilt

If the lateral tilt is weak, then the barrel must come around more with the arms and without the lateral tilt( cusp) the barrel must be advanced with the arms and the top hand has to come over to keep the barrel moving forward.

So,,,BHUT loading ( a segmentation/ X angle set up move) cannot really correct a core launch move problem if that makes sense. BHUT creates a bigger X factor and late scap loading and bringing the lead shoulder back to the ball as the hips open. It has nothing to do with block/ tilt mechanics. The second engine works best when the first engine works best too

[MSandman]

Just to be as clear as possible guys... the "tilt" I was referring to that we were working on was "bend over at the waist tilt", not "drop and tilt" to launch the swing.

I hear what you're saying tho and thanks.

BTW, during/after Saturday's hitting session, he was feeling some pain in the right shoulder tip area. He's never complained of that before. Any chance that's related to an extreme "push" w/ the top hand?

[Jake Patterson]

BTW, during/after Saturday's hitting session, he was feeling some pain in the right shoulder tip area. He's never complained of that before. Any chance that's related to an extreme "push" w/ the top hand?

Mike could be wrong... but when I watch the last clip of him hitting outside there seems to be some disconnected lunging (for lack of better words) post-contact point, especially with his right side. Isolate the right arm and see if you see it.

[FlippJ]

I see some good things happening here Mike...



Pretty impressive after only one day. :clapping

Jason

[LClifton]

I see some good things happening here Mike...



Pretty impressive after only one day. :clapping

Jason
Yes, very good things.
From the initial set, he vertically loads, maintains it and it is reflected in his "landing"...IMO.

I think the lunge that follows is nothing more than being early.
Be Careful with analysis on an ill-timed swing / launch.

[MSandman]

I tend to agree and am really not concerned w/ the lunge right now. AAMOF, at one point when I pointed out to him that he was lunging, he asked, "Do you think that this new posture is making my swing quicker and I'm just early?".

Now THAT's what I've been waiting 5+ years for - HIM to start thinking about what he's doing and how to make changes... "trial and error" that isn't force fed by Dad! ;)



I only have a second now (have to take my daughter to library), but... try this:

Hit your browser's Stop button right as he makes contact. It's tough to tell w/ all the clothing on in the outdoor one, but isn't his rear shoulder much lower than his lead one compared to the cage swing? That would be improvement, IMO (not huge, but baby steps ;)). As always, I don't bring that up for ME to get a pat on the back; rather, to verify that it's something HE should get one for! :)

[dannyboy]

Mike,

My point wasn’t to demonstrate Kevin having a slow swing, rather how he (mind and body) has found his solution.
What do I mean?

You asked earlier, “Any thoughts on whether to ditch the tee/dry swing practice and just focus on live?”

Emphatic yes. And more than that, live from 46 ft, at an average speed he’s used to seeing in competition.
It is my opinion that Kevin has a 7 frame swing (from what I consider “start”) because he must start the bat earlier if he is pitched to from 25 ft. A lot of coaches think that you can get a young player to quicken his swing if you pitch faster from a shorter distance. The player’s solution usually is not to quicken, but to simply start earlier. You said that his elbow drops the same in game swings as in practice. Take a look at his HR swing. From “start”(what I consider) to contact”, it’s 6 frames. Yes, he still starts his swing before toe touch in both, but that is his solution carry over.

Mike, you’re focusing on his elbow start, and that is an excellent observation. Simply put, - you cannot (should not) “start” the bat before both feet are on the ground. Should not “start” the bat before toe touch. At toe touch, sometimes yes, but you cannot start the bat while one foot is in the air and look fastball and adjust to change at higher levels.

I am a firm believer that toe touch is the pivotal point in the swing. It is the point at which a batter transitions from anticipatory moves to procedural moves. Where, if he has decided to swing, a batter starts his “adjustments”. The major adjustments to speed (forgetting location and movement for the moment) occur from toe touch to heel drop. [if I can find some old video I’ll try and put it up to show. Actually that is what I would really like to work with you on]
If you believe me to be right, then Kevin will have a hell of a time making adjustments to higher level pitches, if his stride foot is still in the air.

Some info:

In the latest side by side swings, Kevin in the cage on the left “starts” the bat at frame 27 and toe touch occurs at 28. In the right (Kevin outside), he “starts” the bat at 28 and toe touches at 29.

Also, from stride lift-off to toe touch on the left is 9 or 10 frames, and from the swing on the right it’s 10 or 11. Were the distances that you threw from, similar?
His HR swing is 13 or 14.

With all due respect, you and Sonny’s kid are not in the same boat. He “starts” the bat after toe touch. I know it’s only a tee swing. We’ll see what it’s like in competition.

What to do?

Well I can suggest plenty. I have really spent (and still do) most of my time on timing (as opposed to mechanics), but I don’t want to waste my time. If you disagree with my observations then we’ll just call it a day (getting tired of debates/arguments) and good luck to Kevin and you.

[swingbuster]

The bat coming forward with the toe touch is exactly opposite of what should be happening right?

If you put the barrel in front of the arm pit and tip it as you hip coil I don't believe it can do anything but GO BACK during the stride

[Drill]

What pitches can he hit the hardest

location that is

after he smashes the ball what field does he normally hit to? Hit pattern


just woundering


drill

[MSandman]

He hit his HR to LCF (240', measured), but his usual power alley is RCF gap.

[rocko]

It is very simple and if you believe the Doyle technique, the problem is the front elbow needs to stay pointing down. It is down at the beginning then he point the elbow straight out created a lever going in the wrong direction.

If he keeps front elbow down, it will lower the front shoulder also.

[ctandc]

FWIW I don't think the lunge is a 'lunge'. My son tends to be early ALOT as well. And from his past performance every season, it tends to be MUCH worse in the early pre-season when hitting soft-toss, and live BP in the cage. He doesn't trust yet that he has plenty of time to trigger the swing. I believe it's more a 'timing' issue than a 'swing flaw'. Last night in the cage he was missing pitches he would normally hit....so I told him simply to "Wait longer...try to hit it to RF.." The rest of the session he was crushing it...and most were CF and left of CF. I try to promote this in soft-toss by telling him not to start the swing until the ball is on it's way DOWN when tossed. I actually get aggravated with soft-toss for kids...because if the coach or kid that is doing the tossing, is not doing it 'correctly' I think it can do more harm than good. Things I see that I (personally) don't like...tossing them too fast...doesn't let the hitter get 'set' each time and correctly initiate the swing. Throwing the ball behind the hitter...too high too low etc etc.

I'll be your son is like mine and tends to pull just about everything. And I bet when Dad or a Coach is pitching BP it's usually faster than the average pitching he sees.

Try alternating speed when throwing BP....let them understand for themselves, that they have more time to trigger it.

Hope that made sense, and again just my opinion.

[Jake Patterson]

It is very simple and if you believe the Doyle technique, the problem is the front elbow needs to stay pointing down. It is down at the beginning then he point the elbow straight out created a lever going in the wrong direction.

If he keeps front elbow down, it will lower the front shoulder also.

Rocko - I have not seen Doyle used here. Do you have a link??
Jake

[rocko]

here is link to his website but little teaching info is on it: www.doylebaseball.com

There were three Doyles laying professional baseball at the same time. I know two are Denny and Blake.

They have done clinics nationwide and used to do them officially for Little League before Al and Al.

For hitting they teach the finish, which they call the powerline.
They then teach the stance and then the trigger.
It is very regimented. Theory is teach the finish and proper start, hopefully everything flows smooth in between.

Finish: Toes straight

[rocko]

here is link to his website but little teaching info is on it: www.doylebaseball.com

There were three Doyles laying professional baseball at the same time. I know two are Denny and Blake.

They have done clinics nationwide and used to do them officially for Little League before Al and Al.

For hitting they teach the finish, which they call the powerline.
They then teach the stance and then the trigger.
It is very regimented. Theory is teach the finish and proper start, hopefully everything flows smooth in between.

STANCE-TRIGGER-SWING

STANCE:
TOES * toes straight ahead
SPREAD * feet spread twice shoulder width
FLEX * legs flexed at the ankles
WAIST* waste slightly bent
SHOULDER * front shoulder on pitcher
HEAD * had a straight at pitcher
GRIP * bat held in fingers
UP * hands near back arm pit
IN * hands in comfortably
BACK * hands back near shoulder
45 DEGREES * bat angle 45 degrees + or -
60/40 * body weight 60% back 40% forward

TRIGGER * first movement of arm/hands/bat

FINISH * end the upswing

FRONT FOOT * closed
FRONT LEG straight
BACK FOOT * pivot
BACK SHOULDER TURN* 180 degrees
EYES AT CONTACT * eyes and noise at contact
BAT HEAD HIGH* point above horizon

After reviewing this, other small faults may be slight head movement forward on swing, front foot should be closed(facing straight, not open)

[MSandman]

I'll bet your son is like mine and tends to pull just about everything. And I bet when Dad or a Coach is pitching BP it's usually faster than the average pitching he sees.

Actually, as I said above, he hits more to RCF than pulls. AAMOF, he seldom pulls the ball down the LF line - he may poke a few into the LCF gap, but seldom down the line. He pretty much sprays it all over the field, hitting it where it's pitched.

Truthfully tho, I wish he would pull more pitches. But in games, I don't think he goes after the inside pitches enough (or they don't throw him that many?). He's usually good for a double or triple every other game or so to RCF. :)

[MSandman]

It is very simple and if you believe the Doyle technique, the problem is the front elbow needs to stay pointing down. It is down at the beginning then he point the elbow straight out created a lever going in the wrong direction.

If he keeps front elbow down, it will lower the front shoulder also.

But telling a kid to "keep your front elbow down" doesn't necessarily achieve that result - unless of course, you have video evidence of a youth hitter who barred their lead arm, then stopped doing so by simply being told to?

[jbooth]

It is very simple and if you believe the Doyle technique, the problem is the front elbow needs to stay pointing down. It is down at the beginning then he point the elbow straight out created a lever going in the wrong direction.

If he keeps front elbow down, it will lower the front shoulder also.

Keep the front elbow down? When?

The crucial part of the swing is to quickly raise the front elbow and lower the back one. The front shoulder raises and the back one lowers,

Like this;





or these;

[MSandman]

I assumed he meant "keep the front elbow down until the stride is complete (ready to launch)"?

Like this:

[jbooth]

I assumed he meant "keep the front elbow down until the stride is complete (ready to launch)"?

Like this:


Maybe that's what he meant, but he said, "Keep it down then point it straight out."

[Drill]

My son is not a coach by any means but he does have knowledge of the baseball swing. Maybe not a frame by frame knowledge. I ask him what are his first impression of your sons swings.

He said he is over striding and locking himself up.

everybody is a critic, sorry

I would give you my son stats but i don't even believe them and I kept the score book through just the little league regular season. After that so not to be bias someone else kept all stars and post season tournaments stats; averages went up when someone else keep them. His last 7 at bats in a tournament he went 7 for 7.

He has been blessed from God to have the talent he has at this stage in his game.

But what ever you come up with for your own son keep it simple. Work on one swing key at a time is the only thing I would suggest.



love the game,

drill

[MSandman]

Maybe that's what he meant, but he said, "Keep it down then point it straight out."

Actually, that's NOT what he said. I think he was referring to Kevin's habit of starting the elbow down, but then straightening - and not suggesting that "it should be pointed straight out".


It is very simple and if you believe the Doyle technique, the problem is the front elbow needs to stay pointing down. It is down at the beginning then he point the elbow straight out created a lever going in the wrong direction.

[MSandman]

You're right not to recite your son's stats, Drill; stats have no place in a mechanics discussion, IMO.

As I've said before, my son's stats are quite good too. He was considered (by his coaches and teammates) to be the best hitter on his 11YO All-Star team last year. He was 2nd in avg/RBI's on our reg. season team only to our 12YO league stud. And that was while missing 7 games early in the season and fighting his way back from a broken elbow. (He did finish the last 14 games, plus playoffs tho.) But so what? I know that his mechanics still need improvement to compete vs. top pitching. Don't get me wrong; he hits the best pitchers in our league (which is quite competitive). But who knows how much longer that will last?

I've filmed lots of "great" youth hitters - great stats in their leagues - but you look at their swings and wonder "How the HELL do they ever hit a ball?!". :p But somehow, they manage to get the bat on the ball and even drive it... for NOW. But maybe they're among the large group of kids who stop playing ball in their early teens - for various reasons, but often because the game just got too hard.

With all due respect, this forum lacks the context to place any importance/relevance on your son's stats too. We don't know what level pitching he faced, Dad did his scorebook (and even during tournaments, where his coaches did it, I've heard most of the coaches in our own league inflate just about every hitter's stats), etc..

I don't mean to come across too confrontational, but I'm trying to make the point that stats are irrelevant to mechanics discussions. If I cared about stats, I wouldn't bother posting; my son will very likely have another successful year... NOW. But I'm trying to break some bad habits while he's still young.

OTOH, your advice to stick to one cue at a time is worthwhile. I know that's not my strong point (obsessive/compulsive? :)). Thank you.


BTW... have we seen a video clip of your son's swing out here?

[Drill]

You're right not to recite your son's stats, Drill; stats have no place in a mechanics discussion, IMO.

As I've said before, my son's stats are quite good too. He was considered (by his coaches and teammates) to be the best hitter on his 11YO All-Star team last year. He was 2nd in avg/RBI's on our reg. season team only to our 12YO league stud. And that was while missing 7 games early in the season and fighting his way back from a broken elbow. (He did finish the last 14 games, plus playoffs tho.) But so what? I know that his mechanics still need improvement to compete vs. top pitching. Don't get me wrong; he hits the best pitchers in our league (which is quite competitive). But who knows how much longer that will last?

I've filmed lots of "great" youth hitters - great stats in their leagues - but you look at their swings and wonder "How the HELL do they ever hit a ball?!". :p But somehow, they manage to get the bat on the ball and even drive it... for NOW. But maybe they're among the large group of kids who stop playing ball in their early teens - for various reasons, but often because the game just got too hard.

With all due respect, this forum lacks the context to place any importance/relevance on your son's stats too. We don't know what level pitching he faced, Dad did his scorebook (and even during tournaments, where his coaches did it, I've heard most of the coaches in our own league inflate just about every hitter's stats), etc..

I don't mean to come across too confrontational, but I'm trying to make the point that stats are irrelevant to mechanics discussions. If I cared about stats, I wouldn't bother posting; my son will very likely have another successful year... NOW. But I'm trying to break some bad habits while he's still young.

OTOH, your advice to stick to one cue at a time is worthwhile. I know that's not my strong point (obsessive/compulsive? :)). Thank you.


BTW... have we seen a video clip of your son's swing out here?


Sorry the last thing I want to do is bring my son abilities into the discussion. But it seem this forum cry for validity at times.

Yes i would agree that stats are over inflated especially scoring little league. The high school assistant coach was talking to me about my son and he said the only stat he is concerned about is on base %. Everybody has there idea what is right or wrong, I just don't know anymore with all the theroies out here.

I know he is having a lot of fun and thrives on pressure. (i guess the the only stat I should be concerned about for my son is the having fun stat. Which is the reason I am backing away from keeping score this year.)

There are times I cannot suggest things to him (you know how kids get when we over coach them) All i do now is plant a seed and let it grow until he hears it from someone else. (Example)One of the local clinics he went to last summer, did video tape his swing from different angles. It was fun to sit and watch each player be analyzed by professionals players/coaches. What I picked up is that over 70 percent of his age group, the players have the same swing flaw. Even my son. But just working on that one swing flaw with one drill helped him out with more power. It also helped him know where to locate some of his pitches when he saw players he faced with that same swing flaw he had. He was pitching to a man/boy in the qualifiers to state who was constantly lifting the ball 30 ft over the fence. (you know the kind of kid, the one that every one wants to have a look at his birth certificate to make sure he is of legal age) Any ways all the man/boy could do is pop up and hit a weak fly ball to right field, just because my son knew the man/boys hitting flaw and knew where to pitch him because of his swing flaw.

Sorry I got to talking about my son. I asked his opinion about your sons swing and he said what he said in the above post. I guess I wanted to see if my son could see a flaw. Your son has a good solid swing and you are helping him adjust it to become a better player. I am doing the same thing and am blessed to be in a baseball hot bed of ex pro players and coaches who I have access to when my son needs position or mechanical help. He is talking like he wants to catch more this year, he's got a gun, and is fairly accurate with his throws. He is his own perfectionist, so getting him aimed in the right direction well I have to leave that to the coaches. I am just here to keep him in good equipment now and take him to where ever he needs to go. And give him father love when he needs it.

Good luck, have a good season.

Sorry if I came across wrong, it was not my intent.


drill

[Jake Patterson]

Sorry if I came across wrong, it was not my intent. drill
Nothing wrong with being proud of your kid. Enjoy it while it lasts. I would give my right leg for just one more day on the field with mine.
Jake

[MSandman]

Agreed, Jake - nothing at all wrong w/ being proud of our kids... as long as we don't cross the line between "pride" and "justification" (wherein we try to use our sons' accomplishments to validate our own teachings).