Steroids

[MICKEY7]

Now that steroids is a fact, it will make it hard to know which players really should be elected to the hall of fame ?
It would be a shame to put players who are a disgrace to the game in a place that gives honor to the game !
MLB said they instituted a tough drug policy, but who knows if it is being implemented ? The drug testing should be done by an outside agency and independent of censoring by MLB management.
If baseball does not make public which players are being tested and their results, the future players elected & their records will be worthless !!:clapping

[Captain Cold Nose]

Now that steroids is a fact, it will make it hard to know which players really should be elected to the hall of fame ?
It would be a shame to put players who are a disgrace to the game in a place that gives honor to the game !
MLB said they instituted a tough drug policy, but who knows if it is being implemented ? The drug testing should be done by an outside agency and independent of censoring by MLB management.
If baseball does not make public which players are being tested and their results, the future players elected & their records will be worthless !!:clapping
While you're busy applauding yourself, you should realize that players have been gaining cometitive edges through history. I guess all records are worthless.

[Dodgerfan1]

While you're busy applauding yourself, you should realize that players have been gaining cometitive edges through history. I guess all records are worthless.

This is a very cynical response, and a bit misleading, I think. Not that you were intentionally trying to mislead, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that, of course, players throughout history did what they could in order to gain a competitive edge, but you make it sound as though they all did it the way Mickey's posting described, through illegal means, thus making all their achievements tainted. Sure, there were the Ty Cobbs and John McGraws of the game who used cheating as a means to excel, and that should matter when trying to determine who the all-time greats are, but to imply that the competitive edge they ALL sought was illegal or unethical, which would make ALL their records worthless, is nonsense, IMHO. I'm sure you would agree with me that the Babe did what he could in order to gain that edge, too, but just what you think it was, I can't imagine. Do you think he cheated? Took performance-enhancing drugs? I didn't catch that new study suggesting that a diet of hot dogs and beer enhanced one's ability to hit a baseball farther.

Now I'm the one being cynical, so please forgive my enthusiasm. Anyway, I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but I disagree with your assessment of what Mickey is attempting to say.

[Captain Cold Nose]

This is a very cynical response, and a bit misleading, I think. Not that you were intentionally trying to mislead, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that, of course, players throughout history did what they could in order to gain a competitive edge, but you make it sound as though they all did it the way Mickey's posting described, through illegal means, thus making all their achievements tainted. Sure, there were the Ty Cobbs and John McGraws of the game who used cheating as a means to excel, and that should matter when trying to determine who the all-time greats are, but to imply that the competitive edge they ALL sought was illegal or unethical, which would make ALL their records worthless, is nonsense, IMHO. I'm sure you would agree with me that the Babe did what he could in order to gain that edge, too, but just what you think it was, I can't imagine. Do you think he cheated? Took performance-enhancing drugs? I didn't catch that new study suggesting that a diet of hot dogs and beer enhanced one's ability to hit a baseball farther.

Now I'm the one being cynical, so please forgive my enthusiasm. Anyway, I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but I disagree with your assessment of what Mickey is attempting to say.
Mine was a blanket statement, not really meant to be taken at face value.
Steroids are by no means such a black and white issue, with a clear conclusion as to what should happen , which is what MICKEY seems to be suggesting. Flippant dismissive attitudes are troubling to me.

[bama50]

You just don't know unless they test positive for steroids.

[Eastvanmungo]

Steroids weren't always illegal.
How should we deal with players known to have used steroids, but were doing it when it wasn't against the rules?

[Lindseynelson]

Your own Mickey7 missed the end of the 61 season after Mel Allen brought him to a quack who had "a special energy shot". Terrible infection.
Greenies were eaten like candy often to shrug off hangovers.
Whitey Ford had Ellie Howard and Yogi hone a metal spot on the shinguard so the ball could be knicked on return to the mound.
Now as for steroids.
I've said it before ,I'll say it now,I have more respect for a player who was doing everything he could to ENHANCE his performance and thereby his clubs than guys who were drunk or stoned and mailing in games.
My problem is that guys like McGwire never owned up and sat their lying and crying about their innocence.
I'd rather have heard ,"Yep. I tried em, they helped me perform at the highest level. They were not banned so I did what I could to be the best player I could for my brief career.I am an adult,I weighed the physical consequences to myself and decided it was worth the risk.Knowing more about them now I may or may not have used them, don't reccomend them but unbanned they made me a better player.By the way don't 10 senators have something better to worry about during a time of war?"
Noone seems to care that pitchers were juicing as well. Ask Grimsley about Petite, Rocket and some others.
Heck let's go to Canton and take down all the Steelers from the 70's they cheated too!

[brett]

I remember reading something from Reggie Jackson explaining that he had to deny that he lifted weights in the 70s because it was considered to be cheating. With weight training alone, the average high school varsity athlete is stronger today than the average 30 year old was in 1985. Look at Roger Maris. He had like 14 inch arms! Same with Mays and Aaron. 6-0 200 was big. Now its a shortstop. There are guys as big and strong as McGwire and Bonds without 'roids who will be inundating the majors in the next decade.

Now that steroids is a fact, it will make it hard to know which players really should be elected to the hall of fame ?
It would be a shame to put players who are a disgrace to the game in a place that gives honor to the game !
MLB said they instituted a tough drug policy, but who knows if it is being implemented ? The drug testing should be done by an outside agency and independent of censoring by MLB management.
If baseball does not make public which players are being tested and their results, the future players elected & their records will be worthless !!:clapping

[Lindseynelson]

I remember reading something from Reggie Jackson explaining that he had to deny that he lifted weights in the 70s because it was considered to be cheating. With weight training alone, the average high school varsity athlete is stronger today than the average 30 year old was in 1985. Look at Roger Maris. He had like 14 inch arms! Same with Mays and Aaron. 6-0 200 was big. Now its a shortstop. There are guys as big and strong as McGwire and Bonds without 'roids who will be inundating the majors in the next decade.Exactly right. baseball and athletics in general have gone from the medicine ball to computer run training.
Diet and exercise have made us all larger and stronger and with the millions spent on athletics at every level the kids are much bigger ,faster and with modern medicine able to return in weeks from injuries that only 30 years ago would end a career.Point to Gale Sayers and his knees to any number of guys who after surgery are back on the field in 5-8 weeks.
Pitchers have gone from "Atomic balm" to ultrasound between innings.
Sports are in a revolution due to the quantum leap in training and diet,as you point out it was not that long ago that todays shortstops were the biggest guys on the field.

[brett]

Let me add that I personally feel that amphetamines have a greater potential affect of a player's performance than steroids. I never used steroids, but was able to build up to 195 pounds when in top shape and only at 5-8. Hank Aaron (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=aaronha01)could have been 6-0 and a solid 220+ if he had lifted like that. Personally, roids wouldn't have made me hit a ball any farther.

I have used legal stimulants though, and they have been around in common use in the majors since the late 50s, and I will tell you that they can be the difference between being ready to play your best, and not being able to get out of bed the next day.

[Skin & Bones]

Let me add that I personally feel that amphetamines have a greater potential affect of a player's performance than steroids. I never used steroids, but was able to build up to 195 pounds when in top shape and only at 5-8. Hank Aaron could have been 6-0 and a solid 220+ if he had lifted like that. Personally, roids wouldn't have made me hit a ball any farther.

I have used legal stimulants though, and they have been around in common use in the majors since the late 50s, and I will tell you that they can be the difference between being ready to play your best, and not being able to get out of bed the next day.

Yep. There have also been reports on players increasing their batspeed after taking one greenie. And pitchers increasing the velocity on their fastball.

While I disagree that Greenies are a better PED than steroids, they do indeed enhance performance to a great degree.

[JRB]

I believe someone mentioned that using steroids was not specifically against the rules at one time. However, if my memory serves me right, wasn't there some catchall provision in the Major League rules at that time which banned the use of any substance that was illegal? I believe there was a federal statute in effect at the time which made steroid use illegal, so steroids if not specifically banned may have been banned by implication. c JRB

[mwiggins]

You just don't know unless they test positive for steroids.
There IS no test for HGH.

[Rowe]

Steroids are not "illegal", they were made controlled substances in the USA specifically in the early '90s. Common anabolic steroids are available by prescription in the USA. Dr. Shortt got in trouble for not bothering to even meet some of the Panthers to whom he prescribed steroids.

[Skin & Bones]

There IS no test for HGH.

Right, but they aren't anabolic steroids. There is a distinct difference between the two.

[brett]

I say "potentially" because I truly believe that many guys can reach a level of strength that would basically max out their ability to hit a baseball, without steroids. In other words, 'roids have a much bigger potential impact on the lean and wirey player than on the naturally large one.


While I disagree that Greenies are a better PED than steroids, they do indeed enhance performance to a great degree.

[brett]

However, there is such a thing as illegal use or possession.

Steroids are not "illegal", they were made controlled substances in the USA specifically in the early '90s. Common anabolic steroids are available by prescription in the USA. Dr. Shortt got in trouble for not bothering to even meet some of the Panthers to whom he prescribed steroids.

[Skin & Bones]

I say "potentially" because I truly believe that many guys can reach a level of strength that would basically max out their ability to hit a baseball, without steroids. In other words, 'roids have a much bigger potential impact on the lean and wirey player than on the naturally large one.

I see, and I agree then. One thing that's better about greenies than steroids is that it's benefits come quick and easy. Steroids are the better long term PED, and guarantee more benefits to an athlete than greenies, but if you wanted to enhance your performance let's say for the first game of the postseason, or a game seven of a worldseries, amphetamines would be the way to go. Just take it and play. No workouts needed, nothing.

[brett]

And its out of your system in 24 hours, right?

I see, and I agree then. One thing that's better about greenies than steroids is that it's benefits come quick and easy. Steroids are the better long term PED, and guarantee more benefits to an athlete than greenies, but if you wanted to enhance your performance let's say for the first game of the postseason, or a game seven of a worldseries, amphetamines would be the way to go. Just take it and play. No workouts needed, nothing.

[Skin & Bones]

And its out of your system in 24 hours, right?

Yep. Which is why they are still used by players today.

[Bench 5]

With weight training alone, the average high school varsity athlete is stronger today than the average 30 year old was in 1985.

I have to disagree with you Brett. Having graduated high school in 1984 I would have to say that the average high school athlete is not much different than when I went to school. I watch a lot of my nephews games and I was surprised to see that the kids on the team are about the same size as when I went to school. I played high school baseball and basketball and our coaches had us on weight lifting programs in the early 80's. The weight rooms that we used probably aren't as big and nice as the ones that are used today but they got the job done. I think that the Baby Boom generation was noticeably taller and bigger than their parents but the kids of the Baby Boomers aren't much taller on average than the Baby Boomers.

I think that players in most pro sports are bulkier than their counterparts from the 70's and 80's but part of that is due to the acceptance of allowing players to compete at heavier weights. Part of the weight gain is due to muscle but I think that obese athletes are much more common that in the past.

There are guys as big and strong as McGwire and Bonds without 'roids who will be inundating the majors in the next decade.

I highly doubt that there will be an influx of athletes that will be nearly as big and strong as guys like the roid'd up McGwire and Bonds - unless they use steroids or other chemical enhancers. Bonds was an outstanding athlete without steroids. Guys like that don't grow on trees.

[brett]

What I said was that the average highschool athlete is stronger now than the average 30 year old was in the mid 80s. Steroids, by the way, were probably more in use in '85 than today, and probably peaked in the early 90s. Many high school "unofficial" weight lifting records were set in the early 90s due to the influx of steroids. All I can say is that the number of high school guys today around 185 pounds who can bench press 185 for 10 reps is a suprise to me.

Its more a question of whether high school guys are stronger than major league baseball players in the 80s and I think the answer is yes. I remember George Brett deciding to do an off-season conditioning program before '85 and coming in at 6-0 190 in pretty good shape and having a career year. He didn't look like a guy who lifted weights. I doubt he could have bench pressed 185 x 10 although that certainly is not the ultimate measure of athletic strength. Mike Schmidt was 6-2 200 and lean and the most powerful guy of his time. I think guys can be 6-2 225 without steroids if they train for it, and I don't think that adding muscle at that point is going to make much difference.

I have to disagree with you Brett. Having graduated high school in 1984 I would have to say that the average high school athlete is not much different than when I went to school. I watch a lot of my nephews games and I was surprised to see that the kids on the team are about the same size as when I went to school. I played high school baseball and basketball and our coaches had us on weight lifting programs in the early 80's. The weight rooms that we used probably aren't as big and nice as the ones that are used today but they got the job done. I think that the Baby Boom generation was noticeably taller and bigger than their parents but the kids of the Baby Boomers aren't much taller on average than the Baby Boomers.