Bret Boone...Bueller...Bueller...Bueller....

[tommydale1]

Forgive the quasi-lame 80's reference, but what happened to Bret Boone. Did he have some career ending injury or did his skills leave him amidst steroid scandal?

[candy curveball cummings]

Forgive the quasi-lame 80's reference, but what happened to Bret Boone. Did he have some career ending injury or did his skills leave him amidst steroid scandal?

He retired with the Mets. He said he could physically play still, but he felt he "lost the edge".

[hiddengem]

I think you can figure out why he's done.

He's chillin in San Diego playing golf everyday after he wakes up looking out over the ocean.

[s.f.]

His little brother's career seems endangered too at this point, doesn't it?

[Sweet Lou]

He retired with the Mets. He said he could physically play still, but he felt he "lost the edge".
After the Mariners let him go, he spent a whole three weeks with the Twins and was released. I didn't know he went to the Mets, as that was the last time I heard about him. When was he with the Mets?
I miss Boonie. :(

[Erik Bedard]

No, no, no, no no.

It's "Bueller?"

Also, I started a thread on this topic. It's now in Between Innings, entitled "Whatever happened to... ?"

[EvanAparra]

We all know why Boone is gone...and i dont miss him one bit.

[Astro]

We all know why Boone is gone...and i dont miss him one bit.
Because his skills went with age?

Or do you have some profound theory of conspiracy that you would like to share with us?

[insanefishpossay]

Because his skills went with age?

Or do you have some profound theory of conspiracy that you would like to share with us?

I believe it has something to do with the "S"-word.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Well, Boone is gone, he had a great career, but, it was indirectly but nonetheless oficially said in an MLB.com podcast a few months ago that Boone was a big steroid user.

[Mike D.]

Well, Boone is gone, he had a great career, but, it was indirectly but nonetheless oficially said in an MLB.com podcast a few months ago that Boone was a big steroid user.

It was said it officially tested positive? I don't remember hearing that.

[Astro]

It was said it officially tested positive? I don't remember hearing that.
No, he did not test positive... because his skills declined about the sametime as testing was introduced that makes him an avid steroid user...

Infact, question anyone on any player that they say took steroids, and 99.9999% of the time they have no proof at all

[Mike D.]

No, he did not test positive... because his skills declined about the sametime as testing was introduced that makes him an avid steroid user...

Infact, question anyone on any player that they say took steroids, and 99.9999% of the time they have no proof at all

So, when he meant "offiicially", he meant "in the court of public opinion"? That seems to be the case with most "users" through the years.

[Astro]

So, when he meant "offiicially", he meant "in the court of public opinion"? That seems to be the case with most "users" through the years.
"officially", when talking with someone who is accusing a player of being on steroids, means that they think he has taken them and no matter what you say they are right and you are wrong

I have learned this over the past 2 years

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

It was said it officially tested positive? I don't remember hearing that.
They said it indirectly but they referred to Bret Boone.

[Mike D.]

They said it indirectly but they referred to Bret Boone.

Who are "they" and what did they say?

[EvanAparra]

Because his skills went with age?

Or do you have some profound theory of conspiracy that you would like to share with us?


Astro just likes to argue with people and tell them that they are wrong, when he has no real idea.

Its no profound conspiracy. He knocked the crap out of the ball when they werent testing, and didnt when they started to.

[EvanAparra]

No, he did not test positive... because his skills declined about the sametime as testing was introduced that makes him an avid steroid user...

Infact, question anyone on any player that they say took steroids, and 99.9999% of the time they have no proof at all

Just like everyone was wrong about Palmeiro right? :laugh

[candy curveball cummings]

After the Mariners let him go, he spent a whole three weeks with the Twins and was released. I didn't know he went to the Mets, as that was the last time I heard about him. When was he with the Mets?
I miss Boonie. :(

The Mets signed him to a minor league contract and invited him to spring training. It was there he retired.

[Stumanji]

Because his skills went with age?

Or do you have some profound theory of conspiracy that you would like to share with us?

A tiny little 2nd baseman coming to Spring Training with 30 additional pounds of muscle, then posting career highs in AVG, HR, RBI, OBP and SLG (and, duh, OPS) that same season - it does send up a big red flag.

Don't get me wrong - Boone was a huge hit in Seattle. Everyone loved him. He was a stellar defender, and a great personality. One of my favorites for the three great seasons he played hear. I wish him all the best, and it's sad to see him not playing.

But really, I think his retirement did have to do with diminishing skills and not so much about "steroid testing". He returned to his "norm" in 2004 (.250 avg, 20 hr, 80 rbi) and it wasn't good enough for everyone. People wanted 35+ HRs out of him, and with the team struggling, it became obvious that all he wanted to do was hit homeruns.

He tried pulling every thing he could - he was dangerous in '01, '02, and '03 because he could poke one into the RF stands, or into the RCF gap for a double. In '04 and '05, he tried to hit it out to left almost every at-bat, he stranded a lot of runners this way.

[drtybUsch025]

The Mets signed him to a minor league contract and invited him to spring training. It was there he retired.

Sounds just like Craig Paquette with Det.

[Astro]

Just like everyone was wrong about Palmeiro right? :laugh
I'm sorry, you are right... I mean 1 player out of over 1000 major leaguers tested positive...

Dumb people are aggrevating

[Astro]

A tiny little 2nd baseman coming to Spring Training with 30 additional pounds of muscle, then posting career highs in AVG, HR, RBI, OBP and SLG (and, duh, OPS) that same season - it does send up a big red flag.

Don't get me wrong - Boone was a huge hit in Seattle. Everyone loved him. He was a stellar defender, and a great personality. One of my favorites for the three great seasons he played hear. I wish him all the best, and it's sad to see him not playing.

But really, I think his retirement did have to do with diminishing skills and not so much about "steroid testing". He returned to his "norm" in 2004 (.250 avg, 20 hr, 80 rbi) and it wasn't good enough for everyone. People wanted 35+ HRs out of him, and with the team struggling, it became obvious that all he wanted to do was hit homeruns.

He tried pulling every thing he could - he was dangerous in '01, '02, and '03 because he could poke one into the RF stands, or into the RCF gap for a double. In '04 and '05, he tried to hit it out to left almost every at-bat, he stranded a lot of runners this way.
Dont attempt to reason with them, they know everything already

[Skin & Bones]

No surprise here. Common misconceptions about steroids floating around again. For the record, Boone's skills " declining " after a testing policy is put in place doesn't prove anything, for many reasons. 1.) Steroids benefits don't disapear right away. With a solid workout program, and any product from the local GNC, you can maintain that muscle very easily. 2.) Undetectable steroids. Isn't that what Giambi's supposedly doing now ? Because he can actually hit again ?

Boone's numbers ( Like Randy Johnson's, and many others) " falling " during the first year of testing doesn't prove a damn thing really. Well, atleast to people who actually have knowledge on anabolic steroids, not things the media spoonfeeds to you.

[EvanAparra]

I'm sorry, you are right... I mean 1 player out of over 1000 major leaguers tested positive...

Dumb people are aggrevating

Youre right they are. So please stop posting in the same threads i do. :laugh

[Astro]

No surprise here. Common misconceptions about steroids floating around again. For the record, Boone's skills " declining " after a testing policy is put in place doesn't prove anything, for many reasons. 1.) Steroids benefits don't disapear right away. With a solid workout program, and any product from the local GNC, you can maintain that muscle very easily. 2.) Undetectable steroids. Isn't that what Giambi's supposedly doing now ? Because he can actually hit again ?

Boone's numbers ( Like Randy Johnson's, and many others) " falling " during the first year of testing doesn't prove a damn thing really. Well, atleast to people who actually have knowledge on anabolic steroids, not things the media spoonfeeds to you.
Knowledge you say? We dont have none of that around here

[EvanAparra]

No surprise here. Common misconceptions about steroids floating around again. For the record, Boone's skills " declining " after a testing policy is put in place doesn't prove anything, for many reasons. 1.) Steroids benefits don't disapear right away. With a solid workout program, and any product from the local GNC, you can maintain that muscle very easily. 2.) Undetectable steroids. Isn't that what Giambi's supposedly doing now ? Because he can actually hit again ?

Boone's numbers ( Like Randy Johnson's, and many others) " falling " during the first year of testing doesn't prove a damn thing really. Well, atleast to people who actually have knowledge on anabolic steroids, not things the media spoonfeeds to you.

You're right, i dont know if Boone was on sterioids, i dont know that he wasnt either. Steriods were rampant at the time that he is accused of using, so its not like this is out of the blue.

Jason Giambi? He pretty much admitted he had used them.

Boone

2001 - 37 HRs
2002 - 24 HRs
2003 - 35 HRs
2004 - 24 HRs

That equals 120 HRs in 4 years... He had hit 121 in the previous 8 years.

Most Sluggers dont start hitting HRs when theyre 33, when they didnt have all that much power before.

The last year before the testing started, he hit 24 HRs and slugged .423

The next year, he hit 7 HR and slugged .350.

The next year, he retired.

This all, of course, raises flags, but even then this still doesnt mean he took steriods, but theres not problem with raising serious questions.

[Skin & Bones]

You're right, i dont know if Boone was on sterioids, i dont know that he wasnt either. Steriods were rampant at the time that he is accused of using, so its not like this is out of the blue.

I don't have a problem with it, but some of the arguements presented here are extremely weak. And show not any bit of knowledge regarding steroids benefits.


Jason Giambi? He pretty much admitted he had used them.
Who said he didn't ?



Boone

2001 - 37 HRs
2002 - 24 HRs
2003 - 35 HRs
2004 - 24 HRs

That equals 120 HRs in 4 years... He had hit 121 in the previous 8 years.

Most Sluggers dont start hitting HRs when theyre 33, when they didnt have all that much power before.

To a certain extent, yes, but it happens. Honus Wagner after the age of 30 became a VASTLY better player than he was before. Ripped off six straight seasons of 40 or more WinShares, including his career high 59 ( the singleseason record, BTW), at age 34. Boone's " increase " was small compared to Wagner's. But ofcourse, Since Wagner didn't play baseball in the 90's, there's no way in hell he used anything remotely close to a PED.



The last year before the testing started, he hit 24 HRs and slugged .423

The next year, he hit 7 HR and slugged .350.

The next year, he retired.

This all, of course, raises flags, but even then this still doesnt mean he took steriods, but theres not problem with raising serious questions.[/QUOTE]

None of this raises flags. Again, muscle gained during your steroid years could easily be maintained after, without touching the drugs. Boone's production declining after testing also doesn't prove anything to me other than the fact that he declined, as most players do as they age. Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi maintained an elite performance during the " tougher " steroid testing years, that however doesn't prove at all that steroids don't work. They may be very well on undetectable drugs, and or using other supplements to maintain the muscle, or just didn't benefit from them as much as others. Randy Johnson, after posting the best numbers for pitchers in the 2004, declined DRASTICALLY in 2005 when " tougher " testing was put in place. Does that mean he was taking steroids ? ( and No, the switch from NL to AL isn't big enough to quantify Johnson's huge decrease in production).

[W_Marone]

We all know why Boone is gone...and i dont miss him one bit.

He's gone becuase his skills deminished. I liked Bonnie back in the day.

[Skin & Bones]

I love how one's skills diminishing proves steroid use, and another whose skills don't diminish proves it as well.

[EvanAparra]

He's gone becuase his skills deminished. I liked Bonnie back in the day.

So did i. I was a big fan. Still am.

[EvanAparra]

None of this raises flags. Again, muscle gained during your steroid years could easily be maintained after, without touching the drugs. Boone's production declining after testing also doesn't prove anything to me other than the fact that he declined, as most players do as they age. Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi maintained an elite performance during the " tougher " steroid testing years, that however doesn't prove at all that steroids don't work. They may be very well on undetectable drugs, and or using other supplements to maintain the muscle, or just didn't benefit from them as much as others. Randy Johnson, after posting the best numbers for pitchers in the 2004, declined DRASTICALLY in 2005 when " tougher " testing was put in place. Does that mean he was taking steroids ? ( and No, the switch from NL to AL isn't big enough to quantify Johnson's huge decrease in production).

Of course it raises flags, it has raised flags. Its not like this is the first time its ever been mentioned.

[YankeeDJW]

He's gone becuase his skills deminished. I liked Bonnie back in the day.
haha, thats a good point.

[Skin & Bones]

Of course it raises flags, it has raised flags. Its not like this is the first time its ever been mentioned.

It may raise flags, but there's never been one legitmate piece of evidence linking Boone to illegal steroid use.

Heck, the closest thing was Canseco's claims about him in his book. Which has been proven to be false.

On Bret Boone:

I remember one day during 2001 spring training, when I was with the Anaheim Angels in a game against the Seattle Mariners, Bret Boone's new team. I hit a double, and when I got out there to second base I got a good look at Boone. I couldn't believe my eyes. He was enormous. "Oh my God," I said to him. "What have you been doing?"

"Shhh," he said. "Don't tell anybody." Whispers like that were a sign that you were part of the club ...
-- p. 264

This conversation almost certainly didn't take place.

The Mariners and Angels played five spring training games in 2001.

On Friday, March 2, the Angels beat the Mariners, 5-2. Jose went 0-for-2 as a DH, and did not reach base.

On Friday, March 9, the Mariners beat the Angels, 8-3. Canseco struck out twice in two at-bats. Boone did not play.

On Sunday, March 11, the Angels beat the Mariners, 5-4. Neither Canseco or Boone played.

On Monday, March 12, a Mariners split-squad beat an Angels split squad, 4-2. Canseco did not play.

On Tuesday, March 27, the Mariners beat the Angels, 15-2. Canseco did not play.

In spring training 2001, Canseco hit only one double in 39 at bats. He did not steal a base.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=1992820&type=story

[W_Marone]

I actually really just liked him becuase of the Boonie bat flip, but yes I was implying that his age led to his skills diminishing, not steroids.

[EvanAparra]

lol...all this backup...but when it comes to Barry or BigMac everyone is really quick to pull the trigger.

[Skin & Bones]

lol...all this backup...but when it comes to Barry or BigMac everyone is really quick to pull the trigger.

Not me, I'm the furthest thing from Anti-Steroid. Heck, I know what these drugs could do for individuals, and I know if taken properly, could provide fantastic results, with little to no negative side-effects. I also know that in 91, when banned, it was because of percieved health risks.

I also know that the old-timers used and benefitted from various and effective ways of cheating. That's why I never buy into some of their " it's an unfair advantage " rants that some go on, when they know damn well a good amount of their contemporaries were cheating themselves. Bob Feller and Jim Bunning come to mind.

[W_Marone]

I really havent accused anyone for steroids besides Bonds and McGuire and Sosa, that is for players who havent already been caught or have admitted it.

[EvanAparra]

Not me, I'm the furthest thing from Anti-Steroid. Heck, I know what these drugs could do for individuals, and I know if taken properly, could provide fantastic results, with little to no negative side-effects. I also know that in 91, when banned, it was because of percieved health risks.

I also know that the old-timers used and benefitted from various and effective ways of cheating. That's why I never buy into some of their " it's an unfair advantage " rants that some go on, when they know damn well a good amount of their contemporaries were cheating themselves. Bob Feller and Jim Bunning come to mind.

You know its funny, because although i think a lot of players took them, a lot of high profiles that havent been caught, i could really care less. I dont care if a guy has a needle sticking his arm when he bats... I just like trying to figure out whos doing it.

[hiddengem]

He tried pulling every thing he could

.........???

[Stumanji]

.........???

"He tried pulling everything he could" = "He tried hitting every pitch to left field (pulling the ball)".

This was a negative, because he had a lot of success going to right field.

[EvanAparra]

"He tried pulling everything he could" = "He tried hitting every pitch to left field (pulling the ball)".

This was a negative, because he had a lot of success going to right field.

Yeah, i think HG thought you meant something else.

[ESPNFan]

Not me, I'm the furthest thing from Anti-Steroid. Heck, I know what these drugs could do for individuals, and I know if taken properly, could provide fantastic results, with little to no negative side-effects. I also know that in 91, when banned, it was because of percieved health risks.

I also know that the old-timers used and benefitted from various and effective ways of cheating. That's why I never buy into some of their " it's an unfair advantage " rants that some go on, when they know damn well a good amount of their contemporaries were cheating themselves. Bob Feller and Jim Bunning come to mind.

God do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over?

Steroids werent banned because of "health risks". Like every almost every drug created if you use it incorrectly/abuse it you suffer the effects.
They were made a specific type of controlled substance because they were widely being abused by athletes. so please just give it up ok?
There are plenty of things that can kill you by using them exactly how they are supposed to that are still perfectly legal so your whole moralising of steroid cheaters is not only factually wrong but completely transparrent, among other things.....

[Skin & Bones]

God do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over?

Steroids werent banned because of "health risks". Like every almost every drug created if you use it incorrectly/abuse it you suffer the effects.
They were made a specific type of controlled substance because they were widely being abused by athletes. so please just give it up ok?
There are plenty of things that can kill you by using them exactly how they are supposed to that are still perfectly legal so your whole moralising of steroid cheaters is not only factually wrong but completely transparrent, among other things.....


Read.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=2

It specifically says that a player on steroids should seek out treatment from that team's physician. Had nothing to do with cheating. It had to do with a drug being abused by athletes, which in the longrun, could hurt them badly. The " cheating " issue wasn't a factor until 2002.

[hiddengem]

"He tried pulling everything he could" = "He tried hitting every pitch to left field (pulling the ball)".

This was a negative, because he had a lot of success going to right field.


Trust me, I "know" why he tried to pull everything...he couldn't leave the yard to right anymore and he was getting embarrased because he would flip his bat and the ball wouldn't even make it to the warning track.

Its not rocket science, guys.

[EvanAparra]

ah, gotcha..

[ESPNFan]

Read.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=2

It specifically says that a player on steroids should seek out treatment from that team's physician. Had nothing to do with cheating. It had to do with a drug being abused by athletes, which in the longrun, could hurt them badly. The " cheating " issue wasn't a factor until 2002.

Spit tobacco is used by more ball players than Steroids and its not banned. It kills people just by using it exactly the way your suppoed to. Steroids are an issue in sports because they are used to cheat. Its that simple. Quit trying to spin it as just a health issue because nobody is buying it. If Steroids had no bearing on athletic performance you wouldn't be here wasting our time talking in circles. The only reason MLB took so long to deal with the problem is that the owners didnt care as long as the fans came (especially after the 94 strike) and paid money, and the players were making money by using them and getting bigger contracts, and it took OUTSIDE forces to get to push both parties to the point were at today. At least 5-7% (most likely more) of the league tested positive for them during the "informational" testing. Baseball didnt have a "health" problem it had a cheating problem. The real health problem, (aside from the reported and medically verified steroid related injury increase), will unfortunately not be known till after playing days are over and the mysterious illnesses pop up over and over.

[west coast orange and black]

ESPNFan: Baseball didnt have a "health" problem it had a cheating problem. The real health problem, (aside from the reported and medically verified steroid related injury increase), will unfortunately not be known till after playing days are over and the mysterious illnesses pop up over and over.

i believe that you are correct on this.
and... yeah, that "5-7%" that kicked in the testing agreement is a falsehood.

[ESPNFan]

and... yeah, that "5-7%" that kicked in the testing agreement is a falsehood.

WCOB here is a link....
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/14/baseball_gets_tougher_over_steroid_use/

Until last year, baseball did not test for steroids. But as part of the league's new labor contract -- which went into effect Sept. 30, 2002 -- a testing plan was started. All players were tested last season, and if the positive tests reached a certain threshold, then the league could impose punishments.

The disciplinary procedures took effect after the league announced the number of positive results were between 5 to 7 percent of the 1,438 anonymous, unannounced tests (1,198 players were tested, and 240 were randomly selected for a second round of tests).

Under the terms of baseball's collective bargaining agreement, all players on 40-man major league rosters will be subject to two tests next year -- an initial test and a follow-up test five to seven days later. The tests will also be for THG, a previously undetectable steroid discovered earlier this year. Any player found to test positive once will be required to enter clinical treatment, which will include additional testing.

I have never heard of this info being in error but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[overhandgas53]

it was about time he retired.. No offense. But he wasnt that good a hitter. He was usually batting in the .270s and hitting about 20 homers a year. I will say this about him, outstanding fielder. Anway, good luck in your retirement! You were a good player!:clapping

[Mike D.]

My favorite Boone memory was when he did the playoff coverage on Fox (2003, I believe), and he repeatedly made Tim McCarver look like a tool by outbroadcasting him, out color-commentating him, and even picking on him when he went on one of his "in my day we played smart" rants. :D

[tommydale1]

My favorite Boone memory was when he did the playoff coverage on Fox (2003, I believe), and he repeatedly made Tim McCarver look like a tool by outbroadcasting him, out color-commentating him, and even picking on him when he went on one of his "in my day we played smart" rants. :D

I would love to have that on tape!!!! McCarver getting out-performed by an amateur!!!:clapping :clapping :clapping

[Mike D.]

I would love to have that on tape!!!! McCarver getting out-performed by an amateur!!!:clapping :clapping :clapping

It was classic...when McCarver was going on with his "today's players don't play smart" rant, Boone brought up a game that he remembered from childhood (Boone's father and McCarver were teammates) in which McCarver hit a home run and then over-ran the runner ahead of him...leading to an out. It was awesome. :clapping

[trosmok]

Bret Boone will likely make his way back into baseball in some capacity, but only on his own terms. If he was smart with his money, which I'm fairly certain he still is, he can dictate his terms of future employment as a broadcaster, coach, scout, executive or any other interest he may have. For now, I can only guess he enjoyed his first season off in forever, but baseball is in his blood; three going on four generations of blood at that. He didn't really show up McCarver, Tim does that to himself without any help. Remember in an LCS a few years back, he kept reiterating his false notion of the interference rule, so Steve Palermo joined the booth gang to set things straight. When the umpire supervisor had concluded his correct explanation of the rules, all that McCarver could muster was a sheepish: "I disagree.":crazy

[EvanAparra]

it was about time he retired.. No offense. But he wasnt that good a hitter. He was usually batting in the .270s and hitting about 20 homers a year. I will say this about him, outstanding fielder. Anway, good luck in your retirement! You were a good player!:clapping
.270 with 20 HRs is bad for a 2nd baseman?

[bama50]

He just ran out from playing good baseball.

[SamtheBravesFan]

.270 with 20 HRs is bad for a 2nd baseman?

After Davey Johnson and before Marcus Giles, Boone was the best offensive second baseman the Braves have ever had, even for just a season.

[tommydale1]

After Davey Johnson and before Marcus Giles, Boone was the best offensive second baseman the Braves have ever had, even for just a season.

Glen Hubbard and Mark Lemke would disagree:clapping :clapping :grouchy

[SamtheBravesFan]

Glen Hubbard and Mark Lemke would disagree:clapping :clapping :grouchy

I said offense. Not defense. ;)

[Skin & Bones]

Spit tobacco is used by more ball players than Steroids and its not banned. It kills people just by using it exactly the way your suppoed to. Steroids are an issue in sports because they are used to cheat. Its that simple. Quit trying to spin it as just a health issue because nobody is buying it. If Steroids had no bearing on athletic performance you wouldn't be here wasting our time talking in circles. The only reason MLB took so long to deal with the problem is that the owners didnt care as long as the fans came (especially after the 94 strike) and paid money, and the players were making money by using them and getting bigger contracts, and it took OUTSIDE forces to get to push both parties to the point were at today. At least 5-7% (most likely more) of the league tested positive for them during the "informational" testing. Baseball didnt have a "health" problem it had a cheating problem. The real health problem, (aside from the reported and medically verified steroid related injury increase), will unfortunately not be known till after playing days are over and the mysterious illnesses pop up over and over.


Steroids were placed in the same category as heroin and cocaine and other serious drugs, this is A FACT. And using any of THose drugs is only a misdemeanor, not a felony. These drugs were being abused by athletes, and yes, were causing serious health problems. The fricken punishment at the time was to seek out treatment from that team's physician. The ban had NOTHING to do with cheating, it had to do with percieved healthrisks.

[ESPNFan]

Steroids were placed in the same category as heroin and cocaine and other serious drugs, this is A FACT. And using any of THose drugs is only a misdemeanor, not a felony. These drugs were being abused by athletes, and yes, were causing serious health problems. The fricken punishment at the time was to seek out treatment from that team's physician. The ban had NOTHING to do with cheating, it had to do with percieved healthrisks.

Steroids are banned because in sports because they are used to enhance perfomance and in using them for that aim they become health hazards, not before. The reason why they were lumped with Cocaine and other recreational drugs in baseball was that that was MLB and the comissioner's only recourse without an amendment to the collective bargaining agreement. The fact that the punishment is different now makes your argument look foolish. Hell they could barely fight the union on the cocaine issue itself.

As I have stated before, in modern medicine, Steroids and other anabolic substances, are used to treat people with illnesses that cause wasting conditions. If Steroids were simply an across the board "healthrisk", as you say, these treatments would never be attempted. You yourself have made a point over and over, like a broken record, to say the following:
Steroids "if taken properly, could provide fantasticresults".
(Another of your blanket statements which is flawed btw because there are some Anabolic steroids that have toxic effects on the liver no matter how they are used.)

If as you yourself assert, Steroids can be used with no health ramifications, then why would the also be banned for health reasons? Because in using them to to enhance ones athletic performance, health concerns are ignored in exchange for more results, bigger gains etc...
See people aren't just going to sit here and ignore your double talk because you can't spin it both ways.

As far as Sports are concerned Anabolic Steroids become a healthrisk when they are used to enhance ones performance, its that simple. If there is no attempt to enhance performance then ther is no health risk.

[Skin & Bones]

Steroids are banned because in sports because they are used to enhance perfomance and in using them for that aim they become health hazards, not before. The reason why they were lumped with Cocaine and other recreational drugs in baseball was that that was MLB and the comissioner's only recourse without an amendment to the collective bargaining agreement. The fact that the punishment is different now makes your argument look foolish.

No, it doesn't make it look foolish. The " tougher " punishment has to do with pleasing the fans and congress. The cheating issue was NEVER brought up until Caminiti's confession in 2002. Well, maybe some talk of it back in 98 when that reporter found andro in Mac's locker, but besides that, nothing much.

As I have stated before, in modern medicine, Steroids and other anabolic substances, are used to treat people with illnesses that cause wasting conditions. If Steroids were simply an across the board "healthrisk", as you say, these treatments would never be attempted. You yourself have made a point over and over, like a broken record, to say the following:
Steroids .


Right, and athletes who abuse them aren't taking them properly. Nobodies whose been an experienced anabolic steroids user for years takes a gargantuan amount of steroids right away without doing any prior research on them, and not taking time off of cycling. The way Barry Bonds was described to have used steroids in games of shadows prior to the 2001 season is a perfect example. It caused him serious injuries, and almost made him think otherwise about using these drugs.

If as you yourself assert, Steroids can be used with no health ramifications, then why would the also be banned for health reasons? Because in using them to to enhance ones athletic performance, health concerns are ignored in exchange for more results, bigger gains etc...
See people aren't just going to sit here and ignore your double talk because you can't spin it both ways.


Common misconceptions, that's why it's a percieved healthrisk. Yes, they are risky, again, if taken improperly. Here's a good video on what I'm talking about.
http://www.steroidlaw.com/images/steroids_0002.wmv

Hey, remember that you once thought that amphetamines were banned because of health risks, yet when a professional ballplayer asked you to name five people who died because of greenies, you never anwsered the question. They, like steroids, are assumed to do worse than they actually do.



As far as Sports are concerned Anabolic Steroids become a healthrisk when they are used to enhance ones performance, its that simple. If there is no attempt to enhance performance then ther is no health risk.

Well, no ****, if they aren't abused, this wouldn't be an issue. But they are abused, by many athletes, and now young teens, so it is an issue.

[ESPNFan]

No, it doesn't make it look foolish. The " tougher " punishment has to do with pleasing the fans and congress. The cheating issue was NEVER brought up until Caminiti's confession in 2002. Well, maybe some talk of it back in 98 when that reporter found andro in Mac's locker, but besides that, nothing much.

Actually it does because if Steroids were just banned because of strictly health issues as you keep asserting then why would MLB or any other Sports Organization need to maintain a PED policy regarding themwhen a blanket substance abuse policy would work? That's because unlike cocaine and pot and other recreational drugs Steroids are used to get an advantage in the context of the respective games and only in doing so become health hazards.


Right, and athletes who abuse them aren't taking them properly. Nobodies whose been an experienced anabolic steroids user for years takes a gargantuan amount of steroids right away without doing any prior research on them, and not taking time off of cycling. The way Barry Bonds was described to have used steroids in games of shadows prior to the 2001 season is a perfect example. It caused him serious injuries, and almost made him think otherwise about using these drugs.

And again your missing the point. Most Athletes who resort to taking them don't care about taking them properly, they just care about the results on the feild. Tell me how do you go about taking a drug ment for Horses properly? Give it up your argument is so full of these holes its not even funny.


Common misconceptions, that's why it's a percieved healthrisk. Yes, they are risky, again, if taken improperly. Here's a good video on what I'm talking about.
http://www.steroidlaw.com/images/steroids_0002.wmv.

I get my info from Medicially verfied sources. NIH, CDC etc...
Steroidlaw.com? I'm sure everyone trusts the medical opinion of a site that has links like this on its site...
http://www.steroidlaw.com/images/legalmuscle.gif
But thanks for the Laugh....:laugh


Hey, remember that you once thought that amphetamines were banned because of health risks, yet when a professional ballplayer asked you to name five people who died because of greenies, you never anwsered the question. They, like steroids, are assumed to do worse than they actually do.

And again your like a broken record. I answered your "5 Deaths Question" months ago.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=633810&highlight=search#post633810
So like I said go google Amphetamines related deaths. Its not hard. I'll even give you a head start. Kurt Jenson and Tommy Simpson..


Well, no ****, if they aren't abused, this wouldn't be an issue. But they are abused, by many athletes, and now young teens, so it is an issue.

So your agreeing with me that Steroids need to be abused in order for them to be a health issue and not before.
Thank god. I would hate to have to explain all this to you yet again...:rolleyes:

[PopTop]

He didn't really show up McCarver, Tim does that to himself without any help.:laugh So true, tro, so true.

[-Kyle-]

I would love to have that on tape!!!! McCarver getting out-performed by an amateur!!!:clapping :clapping :clapping

From watching the 2004 WS over and over again, I think he get outperformed a lot.:laugh

[Skin & Bones]

Actually it does because if Steroids were just banned because of strictly health issues as you keep asserting then why would MLB or any other Sports Organization need to maintain a PED policy regarding themwhen a blanket substance abuse policy would work? That's because unlike cocaine and pot and other recreational drugs Steroids are used to get an advantage in the context of the respective games and only in doing so become health hazards.

I agree, however, the main reason why it's banned is because of health. I agree, it's takes massive abuse of steroids to cause these health problems, but morons likE Tom House chose to do so, and hurt their health.

"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

House, a former pitching coach with the Texas Rangers and co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, is one of the first players to describe steroid use as far back as the 1960s.

He was drafted in 1967 by the Braves and pitched eight seasons for Atlanta, Boston and Seattle, finishing his career with a 29-23 record and 3.79 ERA.

House, 58, estimated that six or seven pitchers per team were at least experimenting with steroids or human growth hormone. He said players talked about losing to opponents using more effective drugs.

"We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed," he said. "And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."

House said he gained almost 30 pounds while using steroids, blaming the extra weight for contributing to knee problems. He said the drugs helped improve recovery time and conditioning but did not add velocity to his fastball.

"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 miles per hour," House said. "I was a failed experiment." http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-03-steroids-house_x.htm?csp=34




And again your missing the point. Most Athletes who resort to taking them don't care about taking them properly, they just care about the results on the feild. Tell me how do you go about taking a drug ment for Horses properly? Give it up your argument is so full of these holes its not even funny.

Actually, many do care about taking them properly. Maybe not at first, but then they learn. Ask Barry Bonds why steroids weren't working for him in the beginning. Ask Mcgwire why He had so many injury problems during his first years of steroid abuse. ( Or alleged). Ask Giambi in 2004 about taking huge amounts of steroids at once, and eating bigmacs before each and every game.



I get my info from Medicially verfied sources. NIH, CDC etc...
Steroidlaw.com? I'm sure everyone trusts the medical opinion of a site that has links like this on its site...
http://www.steroidlaw.com/images/legalmuscle.gif
But thanks for the Laugh....:laugh

What the heck is so funny ?

I posted a link to a video on two steroid abusers who have used them for years and saw great results, and no health problems at all. Or how about this guy Clapp ?

In '91 he told me, "I'm hoping people might just look at me and say, 'Here's a man who has taken anabolic steroids for 33 years and look at him.' From what you hear, I should have been dead at 40. But I'm not. I've put anabolic steroids into my body for over 30 years. I'm not violent. I've got children and grandchildren. All the parts of my body work."

Fifteen years ago, I remember thinking, "This guy could tear me limb from limb."

Well, things have changed.

Clapp is an even older grandfather now. And I'd have to say, "This guy could tear me limb from limb . . . with one hand."

But that wouldn't happen, because as Clapp points out, he has never had what some call a " 'roid rage."

"Unfortunately," he said, "all that we've done is to demonize steroids. It's tragic."

Earlier this month, one of the foremost experts on steroids, Penn State Professor Charles Yesalis, told an interviewer, "It's a shame to say, but we have no idea (about possible long-term effects of steroids.) There have been long-term studies done on alcohol and a variety of drugs like marijuana and heroin but never on steroids."

"We're out there," Clapp said. "There are guys like me who became involved in steroid use in the 1950s and '60s. And we're still here. There are quite a few of us. If researchers really wanted to study this they could. But we've put such a cloud over the issue that it becomes impossible for anyone to step forward and say that there is another side to the story."

Clapp has come to take a philosophical view on the subject. It's not so much about steroids anymore, he said, but about what he calls "body sovereignty."

"It's hard for me to agree that anyone should have control over our bodies," he said. "And things are changing. Steroids are being used. We just use different terms like 'hormone replacement therapy.' It takes time to change people's minds."

In the meantime, he enjoys his family. He follows the football careers of his grandsons. And he finds the steroid scandal in baseball amusing. He said that while Barry Bonds is made the personification of a cheater, others are given free rides. By way of example he points to one of the most famous home runs in baseball history. It was struck in the 1988 World Series by Kirk Gibson of the Dodgers, who received a cortisone shot before the game.

"Another steroid," Clapp said.

Last week, researchers in Australia released a study suggesting that anabolic steroids help older people recover from joint replacement surgery. This, too, makes Clapp chuckle. After more than 40 years on "the juice," his joints are doing fine.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/columns/articles/0709montini0709.html




And again your like a broken record. I answered your "5 Deaths Question" months ago.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=633810&highlight=search#post633810
So like I said go google Amphetamines related deaths. Its not hard. I'll even give you a head start. Kurt Jenson and Tommy Simpson..
Fair enough, but it wasn't my question, it was a professional ballplayers question. You did NOT anwser him.




So your agreeing with me that Steroids need to be abused in order for them to be a health issue and not before.
Thank god. I would hate to have to explain all this to you yet again...:rolleyes:

I never disagreed. They were banned because athletes abuse them and cause themselves serious health problems. The cheating part was NOT an issue until Caminiti's confession.

[ESPNFan]

I agree, however, the main reason why it's banned is because of health. I agree, it's takes massive abuse of steroids to cause these health problems, but morons likE Tom House chose to do so, and hurt their health.

Again you don't understand, its not a chicken and the egg situation. The use and abuse of the drug has to take place before Steroids become a health issue. I'll say it again spit tobacco is probably more dangerous than Steroids and baseball doesn't ban it. Steroids are banned because they are used to enhance performance and in doing so they are a health hazard. Not to mention the fact that Baseball was basicly embarrased into drug policies with both the cocaine scandal and the Steroid issue.


Actually, many do care about taking them properly. Maybe not at first, but then they learn. Ask Barry Bonds why steroids weren't working for him in the beginning. Ask Mcgwire why He had so many injury problems during his first years of steroid abuse. ( Or alleged). Ask Giambi in 2004 about taking huge amounts of steroids at once, and eating bigmacs before each and every game.

Athletes care about taking them in a way that gives them results, its that simple. Giambi cared simply about success, and the resuragnce of a allegedly career long steroid user should be evidence of that. You also fail to mention the reports of Barry allegedly taking Steroids agisnt the advice of Anderson who obviously new more about them than Barry.
Meanwhile, Bonds began asserting more control over the drug regimen. He could feel the drop of energy that came when he was cycling off the performance enhancers and was mindful of the distance of his home runs; when his power started to decline he would tell Anderson to start him on another drug cycle, according to a source familiar with Bonds. Anderson kept the calendar that tracked his cycles. If he told Bonds he didn't need a cycle, Bonds would just tell him, "F--- off, I'll do it myself."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/9.html

Bottom line is that Athletes care much less about the health risks with steroids because most of the more serious risks are percieved to be years away. There have been polls that have asked athletes if they would trade thier health for athletic achievement and many answered that they would.


I posted a link to a video on two steroid abusers who have used them for years and saw great results, and no health problems at all. Or how about this guy Clapp ?

And there are some peopel that smoke heavily and live long lives. These are the exceptions, not the rule.

Fair enough, but it wasn't my question, it was a professional ballplayers question. You did NOT anwser him.

What are you his mother?

I never disagreed. They were banned because athletes abuse them and cause themselves serious health problems. The cheating part was NOT an issue until Caminiti's confession.

The cheating is an issue reguardless of when light is shed on it. Baseball was one of the last orginazations in sports to institute a enforciable policy. They were behind the times and Bad PR forced them to address it. But make no mistake guys like Canseco were suspected long before.

[Skin & Bones]

Again you don't understand, its not a chicken and the egg situation. The use and abuse of the drug has to take place before Steroids become a health issue. I'll say it again spit tobacco is probably more dangerous than Steroids and baseball doesn't ban it. Steroids are banned because they are used to enhance performance and in doing so they are a health hazard. Not to mention the fact that Baseball was basicly embarrased into drug policies with both the cocaine scandal and the Steroid issue.


Right, and as you said before, many athletes tend to abuse them, which causes health problems. HEALTH is indeed the main issue here. You've never proven me wrong on that yet.


Athletes care about taking them in a way that gives them results, its that simple. Giambi cared simply about success, and the resuragnce of a allegedly career long steroid user should be evidence of that. You also fail to mention the reports of Barry allegedly taking Steroids agisnt the advice of Anderson who obviously new more about them than Barry.


And Giambi was a heavy steroid abuser. Ask Canseco who said he was the most obvious steroid abuser in Baseball. I know he wanted results, I don't think I ever argued that he didn't. I did however say that his massive mis-use of anabolic steroids caused him all the health problems he recently had. As for Bonds, no need to tell me anything, I own the book. And My point was correct. Barry ( allegedly) Misused steroids, and it caused him that injury in 99 which made him re-think twice about using them. Until he saw a ripped Canseco in 2000.

Bottom line is that Athletes care much less about the health risks with steroids because most of the more serious risks are percieved to be years away. There have been polls that have asked athletes if they would trade thier health for athletic achievement and many answered that they would.

I agree, but none of this proves me wrong in any possible way. If athletes actually cared more about their healths, and no success, they wouldn't pull a Jason Grimsley or Tom House and take every kind of PED known to man all at once.



And there are some peopel that smoke heavily and live long lives. These are the exceptions, not the rule.

Longlives, sure, free of health problems ? Unlikely.




The cheating is an issue reguardless of when light is shed on it. Baseball was one of the last orginazations in sports to institute a enforciable policy. They were behind the times and Bad PR forced them to address it. But make no mistake guys like Canseco were suspected long before.

Yes, fine, but it's not THE issue. And I agree MLB ignored it's Steroids/Amphetamines problem for way too long. I agree that the fact that these drugs clearly benefit athletes is why they chose to ignore it. However, the main reason for all the hoopa over illegal PED'S, I still stand, is health. Heck, aren't we worried about the kids risking their lives for success ?

[ESPNFan]

LOL I am so done with this arguement. Its obvious now that your simply talking in circles.

However I do love the fact that in the same thread you assert that Canseco is a source that can't be trusted and in your previous post you site him as a source for info on Giambi's abuse. But what ever suits your argument at the moment eh?

[Skin & Bones]

LOL I am so done with this arguement. Its obvious now that your simply talking in circles.

Sure Buddy.


However I do love the fact that in the same thread you assert that Canseco is a source that can't be trusted and in your previous post you site him as a source for info on Giambi's abuse. But what ever suits your argument at the moment eh?

Somebody whose been using steroids since his college years would have a knowledge on who may or may not be abusing the drugs. The article I posted was correcting factual errors in his book. Giambi being a heavy steroid abuser for many years is only something he knows, and only something we can speculate on. Which is what Canseco did. The stuff on Boone is something that could be proven right or wrong, and it was proven wrong. The event did NOT happen.