There is an "I" in Jeter

[KCGHOST]

In last night's game (the second game of a DHer) in the 7th inning in what looked like it would be Derek Jeter's last chance to extend his 25 game hitting streak Jeter showed there is an "I" in Jeter. After going 0-3 he was at the plate with a 3-0 count with a runner on 2B and one out. He then swung at a very marginal pitch rather than chance a walk. This did move the runner to 3rd, but a runner on 3rd and two outs is less productive than runners on 1st and 2nd with one out.

The broadcast crew of Morgan and Miller seemed a little perplexed at this, but decided that they, unlike Marc Antony, had come "to praise Jeter, not bury him".

[PopTop]

Maybe Jeter thought he could do something with at 'marginal pitch.' But then, I'm not as good at reading minds as others.

[bama50]

Jeter is a class act and always has been.

[EvanAparra]

Jeter is a class act and always has been.

Swinging at that pitch wasnt a classy act. How many times have you seen Jeter swing at a 3-0 pitch?

[SamtheBravesFan]

I can't stand it when people don't swing at 3-0 pitches. It's more likely than not it's going to be a strike right down the pipe.

[Pinstripe Pride]

Once he swung at the 3-0 count the first thing that didn't come to mind was "My God he is sooo selfish!". Maybe since he moved the runner (Cairo) over, he thought Abreu could get him home.

Who knows besides him what he was thinking?

But there is an "I" in WInner, ChampIon, and CaptaIn for sure.

[EvanAparra]

Once he swung at the 3-0 count the first thing that didn't come to mind was "My God he is sooo selfish!". Maybe since he moved the runner (Cairo) over, he thought Abreu could get him home.

Who knows besides him what he was thinking?

But there is an "I" in WInner, ChampIon, and CaptaIn for sure.

Haha yeah, im sure he though..."Man if i get a 3-0 pitch, i can hit a grounder that will get Cairo over" :laugh :laugh ..... VERY likely...

[drtybUsch025]

Maybe he just prayed that the ball would go to the gap, and the runner would move over. Of course Miguel probably would of scored if that happened.

[EvanAparra]

Well of course he was hoping for it to go to the gap, thats the whole point, he wanted a hit. But how often does Jeter swing on a 3-0 pitch is the point...

The guy was trying to tell me that Jeter, on a 3-0 pitch, was trying to move the runner over, which is ridiculous.

[drtybUsch025]

With that explosive offence even if he were to walk he had Bobby behind him, and it could have turned out even better.
_______________________
“A lot of people said I could be a good player. I just wanted the opportunity to show it. I just let it happen.” - Albert Pujols

[EvanAparra]

exactly...the smart thing would have been to walk...Maybe if he was a big power hitter he could have taken a swing...but if he got good wood on the ball it probably would have been a single anyway... it just doesnt make sense, he was thinking about the streak and not winning the game.

[drtybUsch025]

Against the Soxs you just can't put yourself ahead of the team against that kind of opponent

Don't know why I am disscusing this when I could care less about both teams.

[Mattingly]

If Jeter had gotten a hit on that 3-1 pitch, would anyone have even wondered if he was being selfish? Whether going for a hit, getting a groundout instead, walking, he'd help his team to me.

If he hits, he helps his team. If he walks, he helps his team. If he grounds out, at least he's moved a runner over. Not ideal, but if he thought he could've hit safely, I'd say to do this. He's an aggressive hitter, which is why he's got good numbers. There's lots of times he's struck out, so I don't see how someone can interpret one AB as his being selfish.

With the inconsistent pitching, funks by A-Rod, up-and-down performances by Giambi, Matsui and Sheffield out, Jeter has been the one person who's been steady in the 2006 Yankee lineup.

[EvanAparra]

Because it was a 3-0 pitch!!! A 3-1 and 3-0 is a pretty big difference Matt, you know that. I think in this instance he was selfish, but i dont think hes this way at all times. He should have taken the pitch, just like he takes every other 3-0 pitch.

[SoxSon]

If he hits, he helps his team. If he walks, he helps his team. If he grounds out, at least he's moved a runner over. Not ideal, but if he thought he could've hit safely, I'd say to do this. He's an aggressive hitter, which is why he's got good numbers. There's lots of times he's struck out, so I don't see how someone can interpret one AB as his being selfish.



I agree that there's no way to know what the real deal is, Mattingly, but you have to admit that there's a little room for suspicion in this particular situation, given the 25-game hitting streak. I can understand why it might be tempting for Derek...it would be a very human tendency to go for the hit.

[ElHalo]

I can't stand it when people don't swing at 3-0 pitches. It's more likely than not it's going to be a strike right down the pipe.

Ditto. I've never once in my life understood why you would want to take a pitch that's most likely going to be the meatiest beam right down the pipe you've ever seen.

[SoxSon]

Ditto. I've never once in my life understood why you would want to take a pitch that's most likely going to be the meatiest beam right down the pipe you've ever seen.

Well, depending on your power, you may be trying to hit the ball only to advance to the exact same spot that a likely walk would've taken you.

[Mattingly]

I agree that there's no way to know what the real deal is, Mattingly, but you have to admit that there's a little room for suspicion in this particular situation, given the 25-game hitting streak. I can understand why it might be tempting for Derek...it would be a very human tendency to go for the hit.
As many times as he's carried the team, I wouldn't blame him for once thinking about himself. In the 2001 WS, the Yanks hit about .182. Jeter was hurt, he didn't hit diddly squat. The team feeds off him. My theory was that once he, the lightning rod/spark plug of the team wasn't doing it, the Yanks weren't either. Pitching and late-game comebacks at Yankee Stadium helped avoid a sweep by the Snakes.

I think there was more room for speculation on how Torre treated Jeter in 2003. Back then, the Sox' Bill Mueller won the bat title, Manny came in 2nd, Jeter 3rd. On the last game at YS-II, Torre was constantly checking what inning the Sox were in, and how many hits Mueller had. When Jeter failed to get a hit in 2-3 tries, he was taken out of the game.

Right now, if you've been carrying a heavy load, to think about getting one hit that would've won the game, a little glory never hurts. You'd think that after countless times helping his team this season, he'd be allowed this.

What's bothered me about Jeter this season was his tendency to bunt Damon over to 2B if Damon walked or singled. He was hitting .340, so why bunt?

Either case, while I'd agree that walking may have been the best bet for the team, I'll forgive him. How often does he get a hit streak?

[Mattingly]

Ditto. I've never once in my life understood why you would want to take a pitch that's most likely going to be the meatiest beam right down the pipe you've ever seen.
All depends. Sometimes I've wondered why hitters don't let pitchers just "come to them". By that, I mean that if the pitcher can't find the zone, if it's 3-0, he's gotta throw 3 straight strikes. If that's the case, I wouldn't even swing at the 3-1 pitch. That may be the only strike he could throw.

If you make contact and it's a DP, he's out of trouble. He walks a batter, he's gotta start all over again. The more often a patient batter comes to the plate, the more pitches he throws, the more of a chance he'll have to walk another batter. He walks that batter, he loads the bases by then.

If that's the case, the pitcher's very worried about failure. I say make him throw strikes or pay the price, which is walking in a batter. If a guy cannot locate a pitch, no need to do him any favors by swinging away. If an exception, make sure that you can hit it past the infield. Anything deep will score the 3B runner if less than 2 outs.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Oh come now, anyone would want to extend his hit streak, even if it is for "I".

We can't always think about others if we don't think about ourselves.

[cardsfanatic]

You know, it's quite possible he got the "swing away" sign.

[drtybUsch025]

Ditto. I've never once in my life understood why you would want to take a pitch that's most likely going to be the meatiest beam right down the pipe you've ever seen.

Agreed...

I don't know a pitcher out there who would not throw a strike on a 3-0 pitch unless it is a great hitter, intentionally walk him, or something else. Why not it the ball if it's your pitch.

There chances of it being exactly where you want it though are slim.

[ESPNFan]

I not only think Jeter selfishly swung at ball four, but I also think that Joe Torre left in Mike Myers to deliberately allow the Red Sox to tie the game so Jeter could get up again in the 9th.

Then again I also blame the Yankees for World Hunger, Disco and Rosie O'Donnell, so last nights infractions seem to me to be relatively minor....

[W_Marone]

Let's no get caught up in something that is very insignificant boys.

[drtybUsch025]

I don't think they would let the Sox tie, with that rivalry I don't see that happening. Though, I wouldn't of thought that Jeter swung on a 3-0 count.

[hiddengem]

Ditto. I've never once in my life understood why you would want to take a pitch that's most likely going to be the meatiest beam right down the pipe you've ever seen.


Because many guys don't like to swing at a pitch when they have such a positive Idea of whats coming. You often times swing too hard, do to much and come out of you game.

Until you speculate why Jeter did what he did, you need to look at alot of other factors involved. Who was on the mound? Was he right handed or left, is Abreu hot or is he cold? What is the score and what is the inning. Who is the pitcher most likely going to want to go after?

My guess is Jeter took all of that into consideration and determined that this pitcher was going to try to throw a pitch right down the middle so he aggresively anticipated it to be there.

On top of that, for those of you sitting at home watching the game from your lazy boy, the game seems awfully easy, and borderline pitches off the plate look awfully easy to take. Well, its not and their not.

[Pinstripe Pride]

Well of course he was hoping for it to go to the gap, thats the whole point, he wanted a hit. But how often does Jeter swing on a 3-0 pitch is the point...

The guy was trying to tell me that Jeter, on a 3-0 pitch, was trying to move the runner over, which is ridiculous.

I didn't say he was trying to move the runner over with a sac. He was going for the hit, but since it worked out that the runner moved over, he might have thought that a basehit by Abreu could get him home since he (Jeter) didn't. At least he moved the runner over, although Abreu struke out .

[hiddengem]

I didn't say he was trying to move the runner over with a sac. He was going for the hit, but since it worked out that the runner moved over, he might have thought that a basehit by Abreu could get him home since he (Jeter) didn't. At least he moved the runner over, although Abreu struke out .

It takes a hit either way...Jeter was not trying to move the runner over, his natural stroke is right center.

[Pinstripe Pride]

Jeter just took a 3-0 pitch and spanked a 2-run HR off of Burnett! http://basketballboards.net/forum/images/smilies/rofl.gif

[KCGHOST]

Jeter just took a 3-0 pitch and spanked a 2-run HR off of Burnett! http://basketballboards.net/forum/images/smilies/rofl.gif


So what?? The pitch yesterday was a poor pitch one to be hacking at with only one out. Today the core was tied and there were two outs and he got a good pitch in the strike zone to swing at.

We are not being mildly critical of a guy for swinging at a 3-0 pitch (there is a time and place for it). We are being critical at swinging 3-0 pitch that wasn't exactly a strike in a situation that didn't call for it.

[PhilWings24]

I can't stand it when people don't swing at 3-0 pitches. It's more likely than not it's going to be a strike right down the pipe.

i'm with you completely, except its important to note that a player should swing at the fat pitch because its a fat pitch, not because its 3-0.

i'm sure thats what you meant, but widening your strikezone on 3-0 (as jeter seemed to do) makes NO sense whatsoever.

if it was a floater right down the middle, then yeah, swing at it. but it wasn't.

i'm not gonna pass jusgment on him too much, i've always thought he is clearly a more team oriented player than your average guy, but that his reputation as super teammate the likes of which baseball has never seen was completely unwaranted.

[Pinstripe Pride]

Today the core was tied and there were two outs and he got a good pitch in the strike zone to swing at.


The score was not tied. Yankees were down 3-2 at the time.

[hudsonharden]

Give me a break. The guy swings at a 3-0 pitch and all of a sudden he's selfish? I'm no Yankee lover, but Jeter is the most unselfish player I've seen in decades.

[EvanAparra]

Like when he wouldnt let A-Rod take SS? Puhleese...

[SamtheBravesFan]

Like when he wouldnt let A-Rod take SS? Puhleese...

So in order to be unselfish, he should have moved to third base?

[EvanAparra]

No, probably CF. A-Rod was clearly the better SS.

[W_Marone]

well....why should Jeter give up his position for the new guy? I think Jeter is better defensivly that A-rod, but hey, maybe thats just me.

[EvanAparra]

Yeah, its definately just you. Maybe Jeter is better defensively at SS than A-Rod at 3B, but at SS, A-Rod was superior, and it wasnt close.

[W_Marone]

Jeter was not selfish to not give up SS to A-rod, it was his position, if anything, Torre should have made a descision.

[EvanAparra]

This arguement has been done. Check the Yankee forum.

[YankeeDJW]

"He usually doesn't get to swing 3-0; he took advantage of it," Torre said. "I wanted him to swing 3-0 because I trust him as much as anybody with a man in scoring position. It had nothing to do with the hitting streak, either; it was a matter of knocking in a run."

[EvanAparra]

Well yeah, because if the streak WAS the reason, im sure torre would have come out and said it.

[YankeeDJW]

Whatever floats your boat. If you want to get uptight about it, go ahead. I've got some playoff plans to arrange right now.

[EvanAparra]

Haha, typical.

[west coast orange and black]

ep: he was hoping for it to go to the gap, thats the whole point, he wanted a hit. But how often does Jeter swing on a 3-0 pitch is the point...

i do not believe that that was what jeter was after, swinging just hoping to keep his streak alive.
but even if it was, his career dictates that he deserves that much... and more.

[EvanAparra]

ep: he was hoping for it to go to the gap, thats the whole point, he wanted a hit. But how often does Jeter swing on a 3-0 pitch is the point...

i do not believe that that was what jeter was after, swinging just hoping to keep his streak alive.
but even if it was, his career dictates that he deserves that much... and more.

Oh no, you shall now be crucified!

[Brooklyn]

... Jeter is the most unselfish player I've seen in decades.

This seems to be the common sentiment. I'm not sure where it comes from. Can someone give me an example of Jeter being "unselfish"?

[W_Marone]

Lets not make a big deal out of something that is not a big deal at all.

[soberdennis]

Like when he wouldnt let A-Rod take SS? Puhleese...
I don't recall the choice being given to ARod or Jeter. THey asked ARod to move to third. Arod and Derek are known to be very good friends and have been long before they became teammates. You are talking about two of the most team minded players around.

[soberdennis]

Yeah, its definately just you. Maybe Jeter is better defensively at SS than A-Rod at 3B, but at SS, A-Rod was superior, and it wasnt close.
I don't think either one has been compared to Ozzie Smith at SS.
I do believe Jeter is underrated defensively though.

[yankillaz]

If Jeter had gotten a hit on that 3-1 pitch, would anyone have even wondered if he was being selfish? Whether going for a hit, getting a groundout instead, walking, he'd help his team to me.

If he hits, he helps his team. If he walks, he helps his team. If he grounds out, at least he's moved a runner over. Not ideal, but if he thought he could've hit safely, I'd say to do this. He's an aggressive hitter, which is why he's got good numbers. There's lots of times he's struck out, so I don't see how someone can interpret one AB as his being selfish.

With the inconsistent pitching, funks by A-Rod, up-and-down performances by Giambi, Matsui and Sheffield out, Jeter has been the one person who's been steady in the 2006 Yankee lineup.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper here, since you all know my Yankee-Hating ways, but...Isn't there an unwritten rule in baseball that you NEVER swing at a 3-0 pitch? It can be the best pitch you've ever seen in your life and you NEVER swing at the pitch!!!

But since we all know Jeter is the prima donna in the Yankees Club House...he's allowed to do it. Andruw Jones once got to cocky fielding, what did Bobby Cox did? Sat him in the Middle of the Game!!! Felipe Alou once did the same to his own son Moises because he didn't run like he cared.

So what's common in all of this? Jeter didn't think in the welfare of his OWN team, he just cared on himself. But Yankee fans don't care about it.

BTW, Melkys Cabrera has been as consistent as Jeter.

[Erik Bedard]

Jeter is underrated and A-Rod is overrated. I always saw them as about equal.

[EvanAparra]

Jeter is underrated and A-Rod is overrated. I always saw them as about equal.


In every defensive stat i saw when they were both SS, A-Rod was at the top of the league and Jeter was at the bottom, and most of the time, dead last. So i think it MIGHT be fair to say A-Rod was better.

[Erik Bedard]

I thought Michael Young was dead last?

Defensive stats don't usually tell the whole story.

[EvanAparra]

I thought Michael Young was dead last?

Defensive stats don't usually tell the whole story.

I said when Jeter and A-Rod were both SS, which means that Young was playing 2nd.

They dont tell the whol story, but the little bit that they might not tell doesnt bring you up from the bottom of the barrel to good.

[Erik Bedard]

No, but stats like fielding % overrates guys with no range, and underrates guys with lots of range.

[EvanAparra]

No, but stats like fielding % overrates guys with no range, and underrates guys with lots of range.


Im not using fielding percentage at all.

[Erik Bedard]

Good. What stats are you using? I'm not too good with stats, though, so....

[EvanAparra]

Good. What stats are you using? I'm not too good with stats, though, so....

Range stats... And Bill James' Fielding Bible.

Plays expected to make compared to plays actually made

Stuff like this..

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008292.php

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...5-gold-gloves/

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=120031

[Erik Bedard]

The first link doesn't include A-Rod, the second one doesn't work, nor does the third one.

[EvanAparra]

The first link doesn't include A-Rod, the second one doesn't work, nor does the third one.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/2005-gold-gloves/

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=120031


Those work on my comp.


I cant find many ranking A-Rod, since its been a 3 years since he played SS, but i was just showing you these as a basis of the stats i use.

[Brooklyn]

ESPN.com has Range factor and zone rating from back to 2001. These may not be as sophisticated as others, but are far superior to fielding percentage.

Here are the years they both played SS:

2001 Range Factor (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2001&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor) Out of 23 qualified SS, Arod is 6th, Jeter 23rd

2001 Zone Rating (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2001&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating) Out of 23 qualified SS, Arod is 10th, Jeter 23rd

2002 Ranger Factor (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2002&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor) Out of 27 qualified SS, Arod is 9th, Jeter 27th

2002 Zone Rating (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2002&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating) Out of 27 qualified SS, Arod is 1st, Jeter 26th

2003 Ranger Factor (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2003&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor) Out of 22 qualified SS, Arod is 9th, Jeter 22nd

2003 Zone Rating (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2003&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=zoneRating) Out of 22 qualified SS, Arod is 9th, Jeter 22nd

While one can argue that these might not be as good as other "advanced metrics", it is pretty telling the Jeter is at the bottom of every stat (except for one which he finished 2nd to last) and A-Rod is in the top third

[YankeeDJW]

Isn't there an unwritten rule in baseball that you NEVER swing at a 3-0 pitch? It can be the best pitch you've ever seen in your life and you NEVER swing at the pitch!!!

No, there isn't actually. Most players and most managers adopt that rule in most circumstances, but there aren't any "never's" involved. Thats why when you are watching a game, you sometimes hear the announcer say "hmm... I wonder if so-and-so will have the green light here." It's usually up to the manager to decide and they sometimes let their better hitters make the decision themselves.

[Astro]

I'm not trying to be a party pooper here, since you all know my Yankee-Hating ways, but...Isn't there an unwritten rule in baseball that you NEVER swing at a 3-0 pitch? It can be the best pitch you've ever seen in your life and you NEVER swing at the pitch!!!

But since we all know Jeter is the prima donna in the Yankees Club House...he's allowed to do it. Andruw Jones once got to cocky fielding, what did Bobby Cox did? Sat him in the Middle of the Game!!! Felipe Alou once did the same to his own son Moises because he didn't run like he cared.

So what's common in all of this? Jeter didn't think in the welfare of his OWN team, he just cared on himself. But Yankee fans don't care about it.
I hate the Yankees aswell... but what you say in this is laughable

[yankillaz]

Laughable???

GMAB. Isn't it obvious. Certain managers show their players who's boss. But there are certain players that are allowed to show their managers who's boss. Both Cox and Alou did the right thing.

Not saying that Torre hasn't, but Jeter has been allowed to do whatever he wants. I'm not being "laughable" when i say this. Gonzo's blooper should've been caught, hadn't Jeter been playing a shallow infield (BTW, he was the only Yankee that did this at the time). Oh, but sometimes it works: remember O'neill's relay to get Giambi at home plate back in 2000? What the heck was Jeter doing in right field??? The relay was for Knoublauch (Or Sojo???) but NOOO, Jeter HAD to make the cut. Wasn't the throw perfect, the man would've been safe.

But, y'know, I'm just being laughable.:D

[trosmok]

Because many guys don't like to swing at a pitch when they have such a positive Idea of whats coming. You often times swing too hard, do to much and come out of you game.......
,,,, On top of that, for those of you sitting at home watching the game from your lazy boy, the game seems awfully easy, and borderline pitches off the plate look awfully easy to take. Well, its not and their not.

My thoughts, exactly. Hindsight is always 20/20 though, isn't it? When a batter has a 3-0 or 3-1 count they are usually given a "hit your pitch" type sign, particularly when a runner is in scoring position. Our 3B coach used to dig knuckle deep in his nose indicating "pick a good one." Some guys necks would swell up and they tried to hit a five run homer, especially if they were having an oh-fer game so far. I hate the Yankees, and am no fan of Jeter's, but I have to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to swinging on a hitters count, streak or no streak.

[Astro]

Laughable???

GMAB. Isn't it obvious. Certain managers show their players who's boss. But there are certain players that are allowed to show their managers who's boss. Both Cox and Alou did the right thing.

Not saying that Torre hasn't, but Jeter has been allowed to do whatever he wants. I'm not being "laughable" when i say this. Gonzo's blooper should've been caught, hadn't Jeter been playing a shallow infield (BTW, he was the only Yankee that did this at the time). Oh, but sometimes it works: remember O'neill's relay to get Giambi at home plate back in 2000? What the heck was Jeter doing in right field??? The relay was for Knoublauch (Or Sojo???) but NOOO, Jeter HAD to make the cut. Wasn't the throw perfect, the man would've been safe.

But, y'know, I'm just being laughable.:D
Uhhh... well I dont really see how the middle of the 1st base line qualifies as right field...

That is why it is laughable, you have no idea what you speak

[Mattingly]

I'm not trying to be a party pooper here, since you all know my Yankee-Hating ways, but...Isn't there an unwritten rule in baseball that you NEVER swing at a 3-0 pitch? It can be the best pitch you've ever seen in your life and you NEVER swing at the pitch!!!

But since we all know Jeter is the prima donna in the Yankees Club House...he's allowed to do it. Andruw Jones once got to cocky fielding, what did Bobby Cox did? Sat him in the Middle of the Game!!! Felipe Alou once did the same to his own son Moises because he didn't run like he cared.

So what's common in all of this? Jeter didn't think in the welfare of his OWN team, he just cared on himself. But Yankee fans don't care about it.

BTW, Melkys Cabrera has been as consistent as Jeter.
I'm familiar with not swinging at the 3-0 pitch. I've advocated this myself. However, is he the first player in MLB history to have done so? Would every other player who swings at the 3-0 be considered a prima donna? Or is that your term because Derek Jeter did this?

I don't remember Torre taking anyone out for swinging on 3-0. Do you? Care to name the Yankee players Torre has taken out of the game for doing the same thing?

I consider hitting into an inning-ending and rally-killing DP on the first pitch to be the biggest sin of them on as far as pitch counts.

Your Yankee hatred wouldn't be raring its face about now, would it?

[EvanAparra]

I'm familiar with not swinging at the 3-0 pitch. I've advocated this myself. However, is he the first player in MLB history to have done so? Would every other player who swings at the 3-0 be considered a prima donna? Or is that your term because Derek Jeter did this?

I don't remember Torre taking anyone out for swinging on 3-0. Do you? Care to name the Yankee players Torre has taken out of the game for doing the same thing?

I consider hitting into an inning-ending and rally-killing DP on the first pitch to be the biggest sin of them on as far as pitch counts.

Your Yankee hatred wouldn't be raring its face about now, would it?


See: Jeter hadnt done it since 2002.

[soberdennis]

We have all heard that players are supposed to take a 3-0 pitch, supposedly making the pitcher throw a strike.
But managers have been known to give batters the green light on 3-0. Whose to say Torre did not here. Whether he should have or not of course can be debated.
Of course all a green light does is say you can swing, doesn't make you swing.

[Mattingly]

Not saying that Torre hasn't, but Jeter has been allowed to do whatever he wants. I'm not being "laughable" when i say this. Gonzo's blooper should've been caught, hadn't Jeter been playing a shallow infield (BTW, he was the only Yankee that did this at the time). Oh, but sometimes it works: remember O'neill's relay to get Giambi at home plate back in 2000? What the heck was Jeter doing in right field??? The relay was for Knoublauch (Or Sojo???) but NOOO, Jeter HAD to make the cut. Wasn't the throw perfect, the man would've been safe.

But, y'know, I'm just being laughable.:D
Which play are you referring to? Seems more like you're rehashing every single anti-Jeter moment you can think of. Do you do this with other shortstops, or just him?

Since this was in the 2000 ALDS, was this against Jason or Jeremy Giambi? There was no "Gonzo" or "Gonzalez" on the 2000 Oakland playoff team.

I don't remember the play. Care to refresh my memory on this?

[Mattingly]

See: Jeter hadnt done it since 2002.
I checked his "splits" from espn.com and you're correct in this. However, who's to say a batter is prohibited from swinging at something he really wants to put into play.

If he drives the runner in, who's to say he's attempting to help himself, rather than helping the team. I believe the Yanks were down a run or two at the moment, so an RBI would've definitely helped. If the team was ahead by a few runs, I could see the point about stat padding or so, but right now, it seemed like he was trying to help the team, even if using an ill-advised attempt.

[soberdennis]

Laughable???

GMAB. Isn't it obvious. Certain managers show their players who's boss. But there are certain players that are allowed to show their managers who's boss. Both Cox and Alou did the right thing.

Not saying that Torre hasn't, but Jeter has been allowed to do whatever he wants. I'm not being "laughable" when i say this. Gonzo's blooper should've been caught, hadn't Jeter been playing a shallow infield (BTW, he was the only Yankee that did this at the time). Oh, but sometimes it works: remember O'neill's relay to get Giambi at home plate back in 2000? What the heck was Jeter doing in right field??? The relay was for Knoublauch (Or Sojo???) but NOOO, Jeter HAD to make the cut. Wasn't the throw perfect, the man would've been safe.

But, y'know, I'm just being laughable.:D
Are you not familiar with Knoblauch and his arm problems in his last years. Do you ever think that with that in mind, it may have seemed the appropriate thing to do. Torre may have even instructed Derek to do so.

[Mattingly]

Are you not familiar with Knoblauch and his arm problems in his last years. Do you ever think that with that in mind, it may have seemed the appropriate thing to do. Torre may have even instructed Derek to do so.
I think it was mostly Chuck's inability to throw to 1B. Confused the dickens out of many Yankee fans.

Chuck later went to LF, but would often play very deep, as he had gotten very late jumps on the balls.

In the 2001 playoffs (I think the Yanks lost 15-4 or so vs Seattle), Chuck played too deep, dove for a ball, caught it, but the ball popped out of his glove. Instead of an inning-ending rally, Seattle tacked another 4 runs or so that inning.

[EvanAparra]

I checked his "splits" from espn.com and you're correct in this. However, who's to say a batter is prohibited from swinging at something he really wants to put into play.

If he drives the runner in, who's to say he's attempting to help himself, rather than helping the team. I believe the Yanks were down a run or two at the moment, so an RBI would've definitely helped. If the team was ahead by a few runs, I could see the point about stat padding or so, but right now, it seemed like he was trying to help the team, even if using an ill-advised attempt.


I just cant be led to believe that it had NOTHING to do with the streak when it hadnt happened in 4 years. Its just too much of a coincidence for me to overlook.

[Mattingly]

I just cant be led to believe that it had NOTHING to do with the streak when it hadnt happened in 4 years. Its just too much of a coincidence for me to overlook.
Could be. Does one AB indicate selfishness for a player who's been the sole consistent spot for this Yankee team?

Each of Wang, Moose, Unit, Giambi, A-Rod, Matsui, Sheffield, Cano, Damon haven't played their spots that much. Our pitching hasn't been too great. Damon's right foot has acted up, so he's spent many days either letting Bernie play CF or him DHing. Giambi and A-Rod have had see-saw batting (and fielding in Rodriguez' case), Cano has spent time on the DL. Other than Posada, Jeter's been the only Yankee who's played a major position about every day. He's also had a very fine BA for us too.

Even if he was thinking about himself, after 11 years of thinking about the team, he's not allowed to think about himself? How selfless can one be?

He still busts it out of the box, doesn't begin his HR trot (however rare) :D until he's past 1B, has bunted guys over when we wanted him to single. He's given of himself (and his high BA) to help the team so often, I'd hate to see people focus upon one single AB and say that this is the very definition of Derek Jeter. To me, he's done too much for the team. He's my choice for Yankee MVP. There's not even a question as to who is our Yankee MVP. IMO, not even the great Mo would get that honor. However, very Honorable Mention on his part. :)

[EvanAparra]

Could be. Does one AB indicate selfishness for a player who's been the sole consistent spot for this Yankee team?

Each of Wang, Moose, Unit, Giambi, A-Rod, Matsui, Sheffield, Cano, Damon haven't played their spots that much. Our pitching hasn't been too great. Damon's right foot has acted up, so he's spent many days either letting Bernie play CF or him DHing. Giambi and A-Rod have had see-saw batting (and fielding in Rodriguez' case), Cano has spent time on the DL. Other than Posada, Jeter's been the only Yankee who's played a major position about every day. He's also had a very fine BA for us too.

Even if he was thinking about himself, after 11 years of thinking about the team, he's not allowed to think about himself? How selfless can one be?

He still busts it out of the box, doesn't begin his HR trot (however rare) :D until he's past 1B, has bunted guys over when we wanted him to single. He's given of himself (and his high BA) to help the team so often, I'd hate to see people focus upon one single AB and say that this is the very definition of Derek Jeter. To me, he's done too much for the team. He's my choice for Yankee MVP. There's not even a question as to who is our Yankee MVP. IMO, not even the great Mo would get that honor. However, very Honorable Mention on his part. :)

I think you're going above and beyond what i was talking about Matt. I dont think hes a selfish player on the whole, i just hate that people think that because its DEREK JETER he couldnt do something like that.

He lays it out on the line for his team everyday, but it doesnt mean that he couldnt have possibly wanted a hit streak to continue.

This AB isnt the definition of Jeter whatsoever, but i'm not going to ignore it because he is who he is.

[Mattingly]

I think you're going above and beyond what i was talking about Matt. I dont think hes a selfish player on the whole, i just hate that people think that because its DEREK JETER he couldnt do something like that.

He lays it out on the line for his team everyday, but it doesnt mean that he couldnt have possibly wanted a hit streak to continue.

This AB isnt the definition of Jeter whatsoever, but i'm not going to ignore it because he is who he is.
OK. I'll just say that for all the showboaters out there who admire their HRs, take their sweet little time circling the basepaths, I'd think that swinging on the 3-0 to keep one's hit streak up would be the least of the worries. If he did, I won't worry. If he didn't, so much the better.

One of those forgiveable sins, I figure. Kind of like jaywalking. :)

He started another streak yesterday, but unless he gets a hit today, that would be the shortest streak known to mankind. Hey, as Barney Rubble would say, "Even womankind, too" :p

[W_Marone]

Let's lay off the man, so maybe...maybe he was selfish just one time out of all the games he's played as a yankee, can you blame him, any of us would say they would want a hitting streak to continue if it meant swinging at a 3-0 pitch.

[EvanAparra]

im out of this thread. I cant stand everyboyd giving Jeter a free pass because hes jeter. If this was anyone else, everyone would be jumping all over him. unless it was bret boone.lol.

[W_Marone]

dude, why do you try to start conflict, why would i bash someone for swining at a 3-0 pitch? I'm not giving him the benefit becuase of his name, I hate Jeter and the Yankees, and always will, just give the guy a break.

[Astro]

im out of this thread. I cant stand everyboyd giving Jeter a free pass because hes jeter. If this was anyone else, everyone would be jumping all over him. unless it was bret boone.lol.
Actually if it was anyone else there would not be a thread made about it...

[Mattingly]

im out of this thread. I cant stand everyboyd giving Jeter a free pass because hes jeter. If this was anyone else, everyone would be jumping all over him. unless it was bret boone.lol.
Who's giving him a free pass?

When was the last time a player who'd swung at a 3-0 pitch had a thread made about this? If not for his name being Jeter, I doubt this would even be an issue. Players have swung at 3-0 pitches for ages. Have they had success? Perhaps not, but some have. Either case, it's been done before and it'll be done about every day thereafter.

You know how many players have swung at both "ball 4" and the fictious "ball 5", meaning they've struck & missed twice on a pitch that wasn't in the strike zone? Stuff happens.

[EvanAparra]

Who's giving him a free pass?

When was the last time a player who'd swung at a 3-0 pitch had a thread made about this? If not for his name being Jeter, I doubt this would even be an issue. Players have swung at 3-0 pitches for ages. Have they had success? Perhaps not, but some have. Either case, it's been done before and it'll be done about every day thereafter.

You know how many players have swung at both "ball 4" and the fictious "ball 5", meaning they've struck & missed twice on a pitch that wasn't in the strike zone? Stuff happens.

Everyone in this thread is, you are.

Other than KCGhost and I everyone just seems to say "well its jeter so whatever"

[W_Marone]

I think you and KcGhost are the only two making a bigger deal out of this than anyone else is, thats what I think it is.

[EvanAparra]

I think you and KcGhost are the only two making a bigger deal out of this than anyone else is, thats what I think it is.

Thankfully i dont care what you think..

Anyway, we're talking about it, thats it. Its not like we are saying Derek should be benched, fined, or anything. Just talking about it. But you people dont even want to talk about it because its Derek.

[Astro]

Thankfully i dont care what you think..

Anyway, we're talking about it, thats it. Its not like we are saying Derek should be benched, fined, or anything. Just talking about it. But you people dont even want to talk about it because its Derek.
No we dont want to talk about it because its not a big deal at all... there was really no reason to make a thread about it, but because JETER did it people try to find a way to bash him...

But apparently, even tho how many people disagree with you, you are ALWAYS correct

[W_Marone]

Thankfully i dont care what you think..

Anyway, we're talking about it, thats it. Its not like we are saying Derek should be benched, fined, or anything. Just talking about it. But you people dont even want to talk about it because its Derek.

ahh yes, childish, good to see I'm not the only one on here who starts conflict.

[W_Marone]

No we dont want to talk about it because its not a big deal at all... there was really no reason to make a thread about it, but because JETER did it people try to find a way to bash him...

But apparently, even tho how many people disagree with you, you are ALWAYS correct

Agreed my friend

[EvanAparra]

Im glad to find that you two are together on this. Only makes me feel better about disagreeing.

And astro... im looking but i dont think i started this thread... soo.....

[Pinstripe Pride]

No we dont want to talk about it because its not a big deal at all... there was really no reason to make a thread about it, but because JETER did it people try to find a way to bash him...

But apparently, even tho how many people disagree with you, you are ALWAYS correct

Hammer meet nail. http://www.bobmonline.us/Q_and_A/animation/ani-hammer-nail.gif

[EvanAparra]

Hammer meet nail. http://www.bobmonline.us/Q_and_A/animation/ani-hammer-nail.gif

Yankee fan meet bias.

[W_Marone]

You remind me of a writer I'm familiar with, a man by the name of Steven A. Smith, a man who knows nothing but, for some reason thinks that whatever statment leaves his mouth is 100 percent correct, and guess what....Steven A. Smith gets no respect from me. I think you can equate where that puts you right buddy, becuase after all, you are very bright.

[EvanAparra]

Yeah, you know, since i'm really on this site pining for respect from you. I guess this makes you the be all and end all here. I may not know much, but it seems that you dont much as well, so therefore i dont tend to take tips from you.

Im sure Steven A Smith really cares about respect from you as well.

[W_Marone]

I'm not the one on this site disagreeing for the mere sake of disagreement, you are the only one who is making a big deal out of jeter swinging becuase its jeter, no one else really cares, now I'm just in here to see what podantic and ridiculous comment you will write next.

PS: Steven A. doesnt get much respect around where I come from, and from what I'm drawing on this website the same can be sed for you. Have a nice night.

[EvanAparra]

I'm not the one on this site disagreeing for the mere sake of disagreement, you are the only one who is making a big deal out of jeter swinging becuase its jeter, no one else really cares, now I'm just in here to see what podantic and ridiculous comment you will write next.

PS: Steven A. doesnt get much respect around where I come from, and from what I'm drawing on this website the same can be sed for you. Have a nice night.

Im talking about people just brushing it off because its Jeter. I didnt make this thread here, so i dont know why you think its me who wanted to blast it. I argued with those i disagreed with, which is what a lot of people do here. It worked a lot better with people like Mattingly because he doesnt resort to personal attacks like you and Astro.

I dont look for respect from people that I dont respect, so you not respecting me is in no way a problem for me. Same goes for Astro.
I dont like doing this on a thread, out of RESPECT for those who actually want to talk about what actually happened. So this stops here. Id rather have a debate with someone about the actual event that took place, than if Steven A Smith gets any respect in Philly.

So im done here. Id rather talk about the game than whatever you and astro try and make this thread about. Sorry to the mods, didnt mean to get so off-track.

[W_Marone]

I must say what I like about you is that you speak your mind, but hey, if you feel as if I care about getting respect, not at all, dont really care, becuase opinons are just that, opinons, but hey, thats not just me. Have fun.

[Astro]

Im talking about people just brushing it off because its Jeter. I didnt make this thread here, so i dont know why you think its me who wanted to blast it. I argued with those i disagreed with, which is what a lot of people do here. It worked a lot better with people like Mattingly because he doesnt resort to personal attacks like you and Astro.

I dont look for respect from people that I dont respect, so you not respecting me is in no way a problem for me. Same goes for Astro.
I dont like doing this on a thread, out of RESPECT for those who actually want to talk about what actually happened. So this stops here. Id rather have a debate with someone about the actual event that took place, than if Steven A Smith gets any respect in Philly.

So im done here. Id rather talk about the game than whatever you and astro try and make this thread about. Sorry to the mods, didnt mean to get so off-track.
Not sure what I did, I stayed on topic there captain... I just think you are a fool, but that really has nothin to do with this topic so I dont bring it up

[W_Marone]

Let us go into our respective corner, astro's to astro, Me to Phillies, and Evan, uhhhh.....ummmm...to the..... wherever your team is.....but perhaps we should wait and hear what evan has to say, being he is always right.

[Blackout]

I always get mad when someone doesn't swing at a 3-0 pitch unless its completely out of the stirke zone

[EvanAparra]

I always get mad when someone doesn't swing at a 3-0 pitch unless its completely out of the stirke zone

But then everyone values OBP so much, im sure most people dont like to.

[Blackout]

But then everyone values OBP so much, im sure most people dont like to.

taking a chance at an RBI > walking

[EvanAparra]

taking a chance at an RBI > walking

I was talking about 3-0 pitches in general. Like your last post.

[Mattingly]

I was talking about 3-0 pitches in general. Like your last post.
Did you see the pitch? Was it in the strike zone? What would you have preferred that Jeter have done? Take it for a walk? Look at a strike? If it had been a waist-high and flat meatball down Broadway, what would you have preferred he'd done?

[Hammerin Hank]

Did you see the pitch? Was it in the strike zone? What would you have preferred that Jeter have done? Take it for a walk? Look at a strike? If it had been a waist-high and flat meatball down Broadway, what would you have preferred he'd done?

What was the score? What inning? Who was batting behind Jeter? How many outs? Who was one base?

[Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by hudsonharden
... Jeter is the most unselfish player I've seen in decades.


This seems to be the common sentiment. I'm not sure where it comes from. Can someone give me an example of Jeter being "unselfish"?

Can anyone respond to this? Jeter seems to constantly get accolades like "unselfish", but is that a media hype or are there examples?

[Mattingly]

What was the score? What inning? Who was batting behind Jeter? How many outs? Who was one base?
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/playbyplay/MLB_20060917_BOS@NYY_2
Yankees 7th
Craig Hansen pitching:
Miguel Cairo: Ball, Ball, Foul, Ball, Strike swinging, Foul, Foul, Cairo walked.
Melky Cabrera: Pickoff attempt, Strike looking, Cabrera sacrificed to third, Cairo to second.
Derek Jeter: Ball, Ball, Ball, Jeter grounded out to first, Cairo to third.
Bobby Abreu: Javier Lopez relieved Craig Hansen, Ball, Strike looking, Strike swinging, Abreu struck out swinging.
End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/live/MLB_20060917_BOS@NYY_2

Yanks were up 4-2. 7th inning. Bobby Abreu was batting 3rd behind Jeter. 1 out. Miguel Cairo was on 2B.

[PopTop]

He should have taken the pitch, just like he takes every other 3-0 pitch.So you're saying that he has NEVER swung at a 3-0 pitch before?

[Hammerin Hank]

Yanks were up 4-2. 7th inning. Bobby Abreu was batting 3rd behind Jeter. 1 out. Miguel Cairo was on 2B.

He should've taken that pitch and he knows it.

[EvanAparra]

So you're saying that he has NEVER swung at a 3-0 pitch before?

He hasnt put one into play since 2002, which i had said above.

To Matt, he should have taken the pitch, IMO. Just like he takes every other one, works pretty well for him, dont you think? With a singles hitter like Jeter, wouldnt you want to put 2 men on with 1 out for Abreu, who does have some power?

[KCGHOST]

This has been a highly amusing thread. I really started not to disrepect Jeter (they guy is amazing) but really to tweak the noses of the mindless Jeter fans (you know who you are).

No matter how many times the situation was described (score, count, hittability of pitch, etc) the majority of his worshippers simply can't accept that Jeter did something in his own self interest.

The simple and correct answer is that Jeter showed us he is as human as the rest of us. Not exactly a great sin.

[EvanAparra]

This has been a highly amusing thread. I really started not to disrepect Jeter (they guy is amazing) but really to tweak the noses of the mindless Jeter fans (you know who you are).

No matter how many times the situation was described (score, count, hittability of pitch, etc) the majority of his worshippers simply can't accept that Jeter did something in his own self interest.

The simple and correct answer is that Jeter showed us he is as human as the rest of us. Not exactly a great sin.


Yeah, i really dont get this. Everyone is acting like im saying Jeter is just a selfish #@! or something, but i'm not. Just commenting on one instance. Jeter is a great player, HOFer. But he did put himself in front of the team during this one instance. Like i said before, its not like im saying Torre should bench him or anything, its not THAT big a deal.

[Mattingly]

He hasnt put one into play since 2002, which i had said above.

To Matt, he should have taken the pitch, IMO. Just like he takes every other one, works pretty well for him, dont you think? With a singles hitter like Jeter, wouldnt you want to put 2 men on with 1 out for Abreu, who does have some power?
Actually, how do you know he's taken every single other 3-0 pitch? Just because he hasn't gotten a hit on that specific picth doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't swung and fouled it off.

The Yanks were leading by 2, but eventually lost the game 5-4. That potential RBI, with Damon on 3B, would've helped.

With a 2-run lead against Boston and it being the 7th inning, I wouldn't say that this lead is safe.

I'm curious, every single batter that swings at a 3-0 pitch is being selfish in that specific instance?

[EvanAparra]

Actually, how do you know he's taken every single other 3-0 pitch? Just because he hasn't gotten a hit on that specific picth doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't swung and fouled it off.

The Yanks were leading by 2, but eventually lost the game 5-4. That potential RBI, with Damon on 3B, would've helped.

With a 2-run lead against Boston and it being the 7th inning, I wouldn't say that this lead is safe.

I'm curious, every single batter that swings at a 3-0 pitch is being selfish in that specific instance?

Well i really doubt he has taken every other pitch, im sure hes fouled some off. In that case, without having any success on 3-0 before, what makes him think this is a good time to do it?

You're stepping over what this thread is all about, Matt. Of course every batter isnt selfish, and you know why this one is different. I realize you are backing up your player, but you are completely ignoring the point of this thread.

[Mattingly]

Well i really doubt he has taken every other pitch, im sure hes fouled some off. In that case, without having any success on 3-0 before, what makes him think this is a good time to do it?

You're stepping over what this thread is all about, Matt. Of course every batter isnt selfish, and you know why this one is different. I realize you are backing up your player, but you are completely ignoring the point of this thread.
He could be trying to foul it off. If the ump was giving the Boston pitchers some leeway on the strike zone, that could be a reason to foul off the pitcher. Remember, it's not a ball or a strike until the ump says so. Even a ball becomes a strike if someone swings at it.

I figure there are two reasons to swing at a pitch: if you think it's close and wish to foul it off. If you think you can do something with it. Since Jeter's aggressive, I figure he thought he could do something with it. I didn't see the pitch. Did you?

As to my knowing why this one is different, please explain. You've said I missed the point of this thread. In that case, please explain what the point of this thread is.

[EvanAparra]

About the missed point. You start talking about if its selfish for ANY player to swing at a 3-0 pitch.This is different, because of the situation. (streak)

Why would Jeter want to foul off a 3-0 pitch? I dont see how that makes any sense whatsoever. People only do that on 2 strike pitches.

The only thing I think Jeter could have done with that pitch would be to poke it into right, it looked low and away. I dont see how hitting a single into right is that much better than walking, considering the possibility or creating an out.

[Mattingly]

About the missed point. You start talking about if its selfish for ANY player to swing at a 3-0 pitch.This is different, because of the situation. (streak)

Why would Jeter want to foul off a 3-0 pitch? I dont see how that makes any sense whatsoever. People only do that on 2 strike pitches.

The only thing I think Jeter could have done with that pitch would be to poke it into right, it looked low and away. I dont see how hitting a single into right is that much better than walking, considering the possibility or creating an out.
So I said it's selfish of Jeter to swing at a 3-0 pitch? I asked you if it were selfish for *ANY* player to do so. I don't remember saying that Jeter or anyone else would be selfish for doing so.

I listed fouling off a pitch as one reason someone would swing. If he thought he wanted to see if he could at least do this, since he'd been hitless in the game, perhaps another pitch, he could've gotten a hit off of. At least touching the ball would've been better than nothing.

As to poking it into RF, on which count should he have done this? 3-1? 3-2? I don't even know why RF is so important. He's never hit into LF or CF before? I sure remember his doing so.

As to a single vs a walk, there was 2B runner, and a single would likely have driven him home, whereas a walk would've set up the inning-ending DP, as there was 1 out already.

[EvanAparra]

So I said it's selfish of Jeter to swing at a 3-0 pitch? I asked you if it were selfish for *ANY* player to do so. I don't remember saying that Jeter or anyone else would be selfish for doing so.

I listed fouling off a pitch as one reason someone would swing. If he thought he wanted to see if he could at least do this, since he'd been hitless in the game, perhaps another pitch, he could've gotten a hit off of. At least touching the ball would've been better than nothing.

As to poking it into RF, on which count should he have done this? 3-1? 3-2? I don't even know why RF is so important. He's never hit into LF or CF before? I sure remember his doing so.

As to a single vs a walk, there was 2B runner, and a single would likely have driven him home, whereas a walk would've set up the inning-ending DP, as there was 1 out already.

I didnt say you said it was selfish for Jeter to have swung. No, its not selfish of any player to swing at a 3-0 pitch, but take into account the situation, it seems selfish of Jeter to have done so there.

Touching the ball would NOT have been better than nothing. How is grounding out better than walking? That pitch could easily have been called a ball.

I dont know what you are talking about with the LF and CF stuff. You asked what he couldnt have done with it, and i said he could have poked it to right field.

And about the single vs. walk, I KNOW that a single is better than a walk in that situation, but i also said that the risk was high. And i questioned whether it was worth the risk.

[Mattingly]

I didnt say you said it was selfish for Jeter to have swung. No, its not selfish of any player to swing at a 3-0 pitch, but take into account the situation, it seems selfish of Jeter to have done so there.

Touching the ball would NOT have been better than nothing. How is grounding out better than walking? That pitch could easily have been called a ball.

I dont know what you are talking about with the LF and CF stuff. You asked what he couldnt have done with it, and i said he could have poked it to right field.

And about the single vs. walk, I KNOW that a single is better than a walk in that situation, but i also said that the risk was high. And i questioned whether it was worth the risk.
Which are you referring to? A single vs a BB or a GO or a BB? You've discussed both, so I'm not clear on what you're saying. In post #116, you'd mentioned:
I dont see how hitting a single into right is that much better than walking, considering the possibility or creating an out.
Now you're talking about a groundout. Which one are you referring to?

I just mentioned LF & CF as alternate places where a single could've been hit. Why did you mention RF specifically? Only a hit to RF would've plated a bench guy who's on 2B?

As to the risk being high, if he'd have missed the pitch, it would've been 3-1, right? How do you know that the 3-0 pitch will be better than the 3-1 pitch? Or that either will be better than the 3-2 pitch? On which pitch count is there a better likelihood of receiving a pitch that one could put into the OF?

[EvanAparra]

Which are you referring to? A single vs a BB or a GO or a BB? You've discussed both, so I'm not clear on what you're saying. In post #116, you'd mentioned:

Now you're talking about a groundout. Which one are you referring to?

I just mentioned LF & CF as alternate places where a single could've been hit. Why did you mention RF specifically? Only a hit to RF would've plated a bench guy who's on 2B?

As to the risk being high, if he'd have missed the pitch, it would've been 3-1, right? How do you know that the 3-0 pitch will be better than the 3-1 pitch? Or that either will be better than the 3-2 pitch? On which pitch count is there a better likelihood of receiving a pitch that one could put into the OF?

I said RF because the pitch was low and away, thats that usually what is done with those pitches.

The whole point of "if the pitch would have been better", this whole thing would have been solved if he took it, since it was probably a ball.