Santana's statistical dominance

[durang]

Has any other pitcher led this many pitching categories in his league this late in the season ? I wonder . . .

As of today - 9/18 - Santana is number 1 in the AL in:
W, WPct, ERA, SO, WHIP, IP, QS, K/9, BAA, OBP, SLG, and OPS
and number 2 in K/BB

(he leads BOTH leagues in W, WPct, ERA, SO, WHIP, K/9, OBP, and OPS)

[Sweet Lou]

He's still got some room for improvement, but I'd say he's this years Most Improved Player.....:D :D :clapping :crazy
Just kidding around, that guy just blows my mind. I hope Liriano can get healthy, stay healthy, and help lead them to a playoff berth next year. What an incredible 1-2 punch they will be. In the meantime, Santana will have to take the lead this year. Go Twins!

[bama50]

He could be as dominant as Bob Gibson was during his day.

[overhandgas53]

Hof Status?

[durang]

Come to think of it, I would guess that Pedro led in most of those categories in 1999 and 2000 (except for W and WPct - which the pitcher has the least control over).

And his numbers in those 2 years are (for the most part) much better than Santana's numbers this year.

In 2004 Santana had 10 consecutive starts where he allowed 3 or fewer runs and 4 or fewer hits. At the time Elias said that no one had done that since expansion began (not Koufax, Gibson, Pedro, or anyone else). So maybe we can just add Santana to the list of "most dominant pitchers of the expansion era" (or something like that). I would think that you'd only want pitchers who had proved themselves over at least 3 seasons and he has done that now.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What's scary is I don't Santana is even in his prime, given his age.:eek:

[Erik Bedard]

Could we be watching one of the best ever?

[Skin & Bones]

Could we be watching one of the best ever?

Maybe. Maybe he will break Clemens career record of Cyyoungs.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

If you are interested, here is a list of all pitchers who led their leagues in Wins, ERA, Strikeouts, Innings, ERA+, and WHIP:

Roger Clemens, 1997
Bucky Walters, 1939
Lefty Gomez, 1934
Hippo Vaughn, 1918
Pete Alexander, 1915 and 1916
Walter Johnson, 1913
Christy Mathewson, 1908
John Clarkson, 1889
Guy Hecker, 1884


That's it. Lefty Grove never did it. Cy Young never did. Bob Gibson never did. Sandy Koufax never did. Pedro never did.

In fact, the last pitcher to lead BOTH leagues in all six categories was Pete Alexander, in 1915.

[insanefishpossay]

Maybe. Maybe he will break Clemens career record of Cyyoungs.

If it weren't for the ignorant baseball writers last year, he'd already be almost halfway there.

[CanadianKid]

Could he get up there in the all-time strikeouts?

[Erik Bedard]

If it weren't for the ignorant baseball writers last year, he'd already be almost halfway there.

I wish we could reverse that decision, along with several others (Joe D. over Ted for MVP in '41, etc.)

[Erik Bedard]

Could he get up there in the all-time strikeouts?

Indeed he could. I'm rooting for him!

[Astro]

It's good... but it is no where near Pedro Martinez' 2000 season... not even close to it

[Astro]

What's scary is I don't Santana is even in his prime, given his age.:eek:
Actually... most player's primes are around 27 and 28... Pedro's 2000 season he was 28

As for Santana being the best ever? That is laughable, if he can keep this up for another 10 or 12 years then maybe, but that wont happen...

[geezer]

Actually... most player's primes are around 27 and 28... Pedro's 2000 season he was 28

As for Santana being the best ever? That is laughable, if he can keep this up for another 10 or 12 years then maybe, but that wont happen...

Thats to see in the future, but to qualify for one of the best pitchers of all time, he has to go the distance.

[PhilWings24]

he has been incredible...i think there is a bit of hyperbole out there though...these seasons aren't as impressive as pedro's prime was, and probably not as impressive as clemen's or any other true great.

i don't wanna take anything away from him, i think he's clearly the best pitcher in baseball right now, but for him to enter clemens or pedro's stratosphere he'll need to exhibit some real longevity and consistency (which, so far, he has). i'd like to see him spend his whole career in minnesota, and win a championship there. and i'd think the twins'd have the money to redign him, the question is if they'd be left with enough to build a competitive team.

we'll see, he's been pretty ridiculous so far.

[mwiggins]

i'd like to see him spend his whole career in minnesota, and win a championship there. and i'd think the twins'd have the money to redign him, the question is if they'd be left with enough to build a competitive team.



They'll have more money when they move into their new statium, but he doesn't like to pitch in cold weather and has dropped some hints that he's not very happy that they're moving into an open-air stadium.

He's been very durable so far, and doesn't seem to over-use his slider like Liriano has been doing, so I don't think 200 wins is that far fetched for him. If when he loses something off of his fastball, his change is SO good that he should be able to continue to get hitters out.

[YankeeDJW]

He's defianately one of the best pitchers in the game right now. It's unbelievable how effective he is game after game. The only other pitcher I would place on his level at the moment would be Roy Halladay.

[quiksilver]

He's defianately one of the best pitchers in the game right now. It's unbelievable how effective he is game after game. The only other pitcher I would place on his level at the moment would be Roy Halladay.

Halladay is solid but I don't think even he is on Johan's level right now. The only other guy who I think we might have had up there with Johan pound for pound this season is Liriano, unfortunately we didn't have the opportunity to watch him continue to dominate - but maybe next season.

That will be scary...

Santana, Liriano, Slowey, Garza, Bonser - possibly best rotation in all of baseball a few years down the road.

[banda_bou]

Uhum...scary! And to think about it that before Liriano got hurt, Santana wasn't even the best pitcher on his own TEAM!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If it weren't for the ignorant baseball writers last year, he'd already be almost halfway there.
He got robbed big time last season!!!!! Fricking voters and their obssession with win totals! :grouchy

[Ytown Tribe fan]

and Saves ... don't forget Saves. Johan finished behind Mariano Rivera last year too. Awful voting.

Buehrle got robbed even more. He was easily the second-best pitcher in the AL and finished fifth behind Cliff Lee.

[Rose4theHall]

He got robbed big time last season!!!!! Fricking voters and their obssession with win totals! :grouchy

So gross how Colon won it over him. I know who I was scared of when my team had to face the true CY winner, and it sure as heck wasnt colon.

If you want to get really depressed, look at how badly Johan beat Bartolo in every single statistical category except wins. Johan was THE best pitcher in mlb last year, and he came 3rd in voting, ridiculous. Those voters should be ashamed of themselves.

[durang]

Last October a columnist in the Minneapolis paper (who had a Cy Young vote) - Patrick Reusse - named Colon and Rivera as he top two choices and put Santana third. He didn't exactly say that he would VOTE that way but he said that you just can't win the Cy Young Award with 16 wins , pitching for a mediocre team.

So there you go - even in Santana's "hometown" he couldn't catch a break.

(meanwhile: just recently the *same* columnist wrote about how Santana should be considered for MVP - not just the Cy Young - this year and criticized another local writer who absolutely will not vote for a pitcher to be MVP - hmmm, kind of like not voting for a pitcher to get the Cy Young unless he gets 20 wins . . .)

[Rose4theHall]

Last October a columnist in the Minneapolis paper (who had a Cy Young vote) - Patrick Reusse - named Colon and Rivera as he top two choices and put Santana third. He didn't exactly say that he would VOTE that way but he said that you just can't win the Cy Young Award with 16 wins , pitching for a mediocre team.



wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. could they have worse people voting?????

[durang]

It gets better - Reusse then responded to all the nasty emails he got:

"Twins followers and statistical freaks continue to complain that Johan Santana was robbed in voting for another major award: AL's Cy Young. These folks want Santana to receive full credit for going 6-2 with a 1.09 ERA in his final 10 starts -- domination that took place in garbage time of a lost season for the Twins. It was in his previous 10 starts the Twins needed Santana to dominate. That's when they were going from 35-22 and 4 games behind the White Sox in the AL Central to 58-56 and 16 ½ games behind the Mighty Whities (and from 7 ahead to 4 behind Cleveland). Santana was 3-4 with a humdrum 4.64 ERA in that decisive stretch of the season, making a third-place Cy Young finish a generous reward."

except that:

a) 7 of those 10 "garbage" starts were against the White Sox, Indians, and A's
b) 2 of those 10 previous starts were indeed bad games for him (6 ERs in each) ; 2 of them were games where the Twins scored 1 run ; the other 6 were Twins wins (overall in '05 the Twins were 8 - 2 in his no-decision games)
c) Colon's ERA in September was 4.91 (garbage time ?)

[mwiggins]

As a Twins fan living in Mpls, Santana's 2005 season WAS considered a disappointment. Colon didn't deserve the Cy Young, but it's hard to think Santana did. Santana's season was not as good as his numbers looked.

Santana's my favorite current player, but he did struggle last year, and did most of his statisical 'damage' when the Twin's were out of it. And Reusse wasn't the only one saying that in the local media.

[mwiggins]

Last October a columnist in the Minneapolis paper (who had a Cy Young vote) - Patrick Reusse - named Colon and Rivera as he top two choices and put Santana third. He didn't exactly say that he would VOTE that way but he said that you just can't win the Cy Young Award with 16 wins , pitching for a mediocre team.

So there you go - even in Santana's "hometown" he couldn't catch a break.

(meanwhile: just recently the *same* columnist wrote about how Santana should be considered for MVP - not just the Cy Young - this year and criticized another local writer who absolutely will not vote for a pitcher to be MVP - hmmm, kind of like not voting for a pitcher to get the Cy Young unless he gets 20 wins . . .)

He criticized the local write who would not even put a pitcher (in this case, Pedro in 1999) in his top 10 for MVP. He's not saying Santana should win this year, but just that he should be a top candidate. Just like last year he considered Santana a top candidate for the Cy Young. Whatever the stats may say, Santana did not have a very good year last year. When it mattered last year, he struggled. When it mattered this year, he was brilliant.

[Rose4theHall]

As a Twins fan living in Mpls, Santana's 2005 season WAS considered a disappointment. Colon didn't deserve the Cy Young, but it's hard to think Santana did. Santana's season was not as good as his numbers looked.

Santana's my favorite current player, but he did struggle last year, and did most of his statisical 'damage' when the Twin's were out of it. And Reusse wasn't the only one saying that in the local media.

You are straight up brainwashed. Santana was unreal in 05. Look at his game log, and compare it with colons. Santana led the league in everything but Wins, which is the most useless arbitrary stat ever created (you need 3 elements to get a W, offense, defense and pitching, if you only really contribute to 1 of those, why should you get a personal statistic?)

[durang]

As a Twins fan living in Mpls, Santana's 2005 season WAS considered a disappointment. Colon didn't deserve the Cy Young, but it's hard to think Santana did. Santana's season was not as good as his numbers looked.

Santana's my favorite current player, but he did struggle last year, and did most of his statisical 'damage' when the Twin's were out of it. And Reusse wasn't the only one saying that in the local media.

Well - it certainly is true that he was not *as* dominant in '05 as in '04 (after May) or this year. But he "struggled" ? If you mean that he struggled in *some* games then - yes. But the season as a whole ? Ah - no.

His team was 24 - 9 in '05 when he started. He had 24 quality starts out of 33 total starts. That's a very telling stat - teams win the *vast* majority of games where their starting pitcher gets a QS.

And indeed the Twins AS A TEAM were 21 - 3 when he had a QS. But his INDIVIDUAL record for those 24 games was 14 W, 3 L, and 7 ND !

He had TERRIBLE run support for most of the season - with decent run support he probably would have had 20 wins and then he would have won the award, with even Reusse voting him first. And - by the way - he did indeed dominate the AL pitching categories.

(NOTE: this year he has 23 QS so far with an individual record of 18 W, 1 L, and 4 ND and he STILL only has the 26th best Run Support in the AL)

[mwiggins]

Well - it certainly is true that he was not *as* dominant in '05 as in '04 (after May) or this year. But he "struggled" ? If you mean that he struggled in *some* games then - yes. But the season as a whole ? Ah - no.

His team was 24 - 9 in '05 when he started. He had 24 quality starts out of 33 total starts. That's a very telling stat - teams win the *vast* majority of games where their starting pitcher gets a QS.

And indeed the Twins AS A TEAM were 21 - 3 when he had a QS. But his INDIVIDUAL record for those 24 games was 14 W, 3 L, and 7 ND !

He had TERRIBLE run support for most of the season - with decent run support he probably would have had 20 wins and then he would have won the award, with even Reusse voting him first. And - by the way - he did indeed dominate the AL pitching categories.

(NOTE: this year he has 23 QS so far with an individual record of 18 W, 1 L, and 4 ND and he STILL only has the 26th best Run Support in the AL)

I'm not saying he had a bad season in 2005, I'm just saying that most of the REASON he had a good season, or a great season, is that he was absolutely dominent in the last 1/3 of the season. His ERA was over 3.45 in April, May, June, and July. August he was 1.39, and 1.75 in Sept. By the time he was rolling, the Twins were out of it. His ERA was about 3.75 at the end of July. Yeah, he should have won more games than he did, the Twin's offense really underperformed last year.

It's like saying that if A-Rod would have hit .456 with 17 homers and 37 RBI's in September, that he should be considered for the MVP. Sure his season totals may look worthy, but he did it all after the division race was over, and most of the season he was just having a pretty good year, not great. Santana was just above average 2/3'rds of the year, and people were starting to wonder if 2004 was just an aberation. Obviously that's not the case.


BUT Santana probably deserved it more than anyone else last year, certainly more than Colon.

[geezer]

Well Santana lost today, and right now, im not sure if he gets to 20 wins, and by now, it seems it will be the first time ever that a full season finishes without a 20 game winner, thats a bad year for pitchers everywhere.

[KCGHOST]

Santana is the only guy left who might win 20. He is scheduled to start Tuesday night and could start Sunday on normal rest. Two wins there would boost him to 20. I just can't imagine any scenario where the Twins would feel Santana starting on Sunday is a better idea thanbeing ready for a start on either the first or second game of the playoffs.

Santana, barring a collapse of massive proportions, will win the major-league era and strikeout crowns. If he wins Tuesday night or Wang fails to win Wednesday night then he will be a pitching triple crown winner for the AL and MLB.

[mwiggins]

Santana is the only guy left who might win 20. He is scheduled to start Tuesday night and could start Sunday on normal rest. Two wins there would boost him to 20. I just can't imagine any scenario where the Twins would feel Santana starting on Sunday is a better idea thanbeing ready for a start on either the first or second game of the playoffs.

Santana, barring a collapse of massive proportions, will win the major-league era and strikeout crowns. If he wins Tuesday night or Wang fails to win Wednesday night then he will be a pitching triple crown winner for the AL and MLB.

The Twin's coaches have said that Santana will not start on Sunday, unless they need that win to get into the playoffs. Whether they will stick to that plan if they have a chance to win the division on Sunday, that remains to be seen.

[geezer]

Santana is the only guy left who might win 20. He is scheduled to start Tuesday night and could start Sunday on normal rest. Two wins there would boost him to 20. I just can't imagine any scenario where the Twins would feel Santana starting on Sunday is a better idea thanbeing ready for a start on either the first or second game of the playoffs.

Santana, barring a collapse of massive proportions, will win the major-league era and strikeout crowns. If he wins Tuesday night or Wang fails to win Wednesday night then he will be a pitching triple crown winner for the AL and MLB.

Thats incredible, if Santana does it, will be the first pitcher to win a Triple Crown without reaching 20 wins, incredible and sad as well.

[Appling]

So is it fair to Santana this year, that he won't get a chance to win 20 games -- because he will saved to start the first game of ALDS?

Twins owner Pollad wants the Twins to play the Yankees in Round One. That would give them a better chance to upset the Yanks -- in a five game series.
After all, to get to the World Series you have to beat the Yankees sometime.

[mwiggins]

As a Twins fan, the only way I'd want them to start Santana on Sunday is if a win would give them the best record in the AL. Even if they win the division, they still won't have home field advantage against the Yanks. And a short series that Santana can 40% of the games is our best chance against the Yanks.

[geezer]

And whats more important?? Santana pitching on Sunday to get his 20th win, or Santana winning on Tuesday against the Yankees??