WE need the POSSE back

[wogdoggy]

this place sure got boring.and not quite as sophisticated .:laugh :laugh :laugh :waving

[virg]

It's in the eye of the beholder so look at the bright side. They're out there saving the rest of the world from themselves.

[PullFactor]

It's in the eye of the beholder so look at the bright side. They're out there saving the rest of the world from themselves.
As opposed to saving the world from wristhitting, like they should be doing. I would agree that we need the posse back. This forum is next-to-boring (and a lot less informative) without them.
=/

[cartersball]

this place sure got boring.and not quite as sophisticated .:laugh :laugh :laugh :waving

I agree with the less informative part. The Posse may have had thier enemies around here, but they always came across with great info. Some may find the info incorrect in thier personal opinion, but you can't convince them all. They made a lasting effect on this forum, and it will take some time (for those who want to) to recover from that. Personally, I would love to see them frequent this forum more often, but I understand why they don't. So here's to you Posse :coffee (imagine thats a cold brew instead of a coffee mug), I hope that you guys keep up the good work, and don't forget about the folks here at BF.

[Jake Patterson]

... but I understand why they don't.

They moved on to another site.

[cartersball]

They moved on to another site.

Well said Jake :D . I was trying to think of a good way to put that. You might add though that some of them were unceremoniusly booted for a period of time also. But thats over with I believe.

[Jake Patterson]

Well said Jake :D . I was trying to think of a good way to put that. You might add though that some of them were unceremoniusly booted for a period of time also. But thats over with I believe.

Not some - just one

[cartersball]

Not some - just one
Okay, I checked back myself also and it was one. I don't know anything about the situation and I don't care to know. What I do know is that yes they are on another site, as well as many of the other frequent posters from this forum. Our loss or thiers? I don't know and I am sure there are varying opinons, but the point remains the same. A loss has been felt and it has been noticeable. I love BBF, and I will always be a member here, as well as a contributing member of this forum. As a contributing member here I agree with wogdoggy that the information about teaching certain aspects of the game has somewhat diminished. I hope that one day it will thrive again. I would like to see the Posse be a part of that if they wanted to.

[Jake Patterson]

As a contributing member here I agree with wogdoggy that the information about teaching certain aspects of the game has somewhat diminished. I hope that one day it will thrive again. I would like to see the Posse be a part of that if they wanted to.
I agree, the level of help has diminished. The other thing to keep in mind is that it is the end of the season and many are moving on to other things. All are still welcomed.

[chesspirate]

If y'all loved the posse so much, you can follow them to the site they now frequent... soon i believe it will be completely open. Oh yeah, and it rocks!

[ssarge]

Actually, I think you'd find that everyone considered to be part of the "possee" reads virtually EVERYTHING on the internet they can find related to hitting.

Voraciously.

Including here.

And occasionally post, and will I'm sure continue to do so.


I guess I have a bias, but my observation is that - with perhaps a couple of exceptions - the motivation of the so-named group is to engage in dialog to HELP people, not to prove oneself correct or shout down someone else.

Obviously, that has to stop somewhere short of total ecumenicalism if the content is going to have any teeth and actually help. Not everything out there that people say about hitting can carry equal weight obviously. Judging what does is the challenge facing the reader, whether he be a "possee" member or just BB Dad (which actually, MOST "possee" members are.)

And sometimes, that process will be painful to somebody on the "other" side. Unfortunate. But after all, the opportunity exists for ANYONE to post, provide documentation for the belief, withstand peer review, and persuade.


And frankly - my final point - not too many people who are serious about hitting - or for that matter, serious about entertaining themselves on the internet - DESIRE total agreement on all points. Pretty boring conversation where nothing is learned, and at least one of the parties involved is redundant.

It is reasonable to expect that a measure of respect be afforded in that process, and that people be "steered" when they violate this, and if too eggrigious a violation, that there may be sanctions. I am not aware of anyone who disrespects Jake for any role he has felt compelled to play in such situations.

But discourse, discussion, differing points of view are good.

Personally, I like when someone demonstrates I am wrong about some aspect of hitting. An ego blow, sure, but it means it was a day where I learned something, and hopefully became a better coach.

Absolute best regards,

Scott

[jbooth]

this place sure got boring.and not quite as sophisticated .:laugh :laugh :laugh :waving

IMO, it got boring when people stopped posting swings for analysis. Probably because the youth season is basically over.

I don't miss one certain individual one bit, and I don't actually know who the members of "the posse" are.

Can you name them for me?

[Stealth]

I can tell you one person who is not;

Swingbuster - LOL:laugh

I guess I could name a few more but...........

Bottom line - more discussion, disagreements etc. is how we all learn!

[jbooth]

Bottom line - more discussion, disagreements etc. is how we all learn!

Discussion and/or disagreement is fine. Holier-than-thou attitudes, personal insults at a person who has a different belief and claiming you have THE answer without backing it up with some sort of fact, is not a productive or enjoyable way to learn.

[virg]

As opposed to saving the world from wristhitting, like they should be doing.

Brilliantly, in fact immaculately concieved. When and where did I mention it or the website around here? Do you know any more about hitting than what you heard? Just another of that hit-and-smear gang.

[wogdoggy]

As opposed to saving the world from wristhitting, like they should be doing. I would agree that we need the posse back. This forum is next-to-boring (and a lot less informative) without them.
=/


amen with the wristhitting comment..wonder how VIRG can sleep at night ruining young innocent kids with wristhitting...

lets face it look at the subject matter now..batting gloves and the pros who dont use them...lol

[hellborn]

amen with the wristhitting comment..wonder how VIRG can sleep at night ruining young innocent kids with wristhitting...

lets face it look at the subject matter now..batting gloves and the pros who dont use them...lol

Think you could go back to sleep, woggy?

[wogdoggy]

hard to sleep just counting major league players using batting gloves

[hellborn]

hard to sleep just counting major league players using batting gloves
Must have the opposite effect of counting sheep...

Thought that I had found early photo evidence of Cobb using batting gloves, but they turned out to be brass knucks...

[Ifubuildit]

What Scott stated. Bottom line. I will be back, but I have about 50 other sites I am investigating as well because I provide both fast pitch pitching lessons and hitting. I am also looking for the best methods for my students.

I have spent a considerable amount of time on Steves site but that too is about to become somewhat limited for me because of my other activities.

I would post some clips on here for you but they would be of female students and I am not sure you guys would enjoy them that much.

Like Mcarthur. I shall return to create that special moment of tension you all are missing when we disagree.

Elliott.

[Freestate]

I thought maybe it was just a seasonal slowdown. But now it's obvious to me that it was more than that.

What site(s) did they move on to?
And if that info is not appropriate for a public post, please PM me.

Kinda feels like being at a party, you stop in to the restroom, and when you come back out, everyone's gone! ;-)

[hellborn]

....

I would post some clips on here for you but they would be of female students and I am not sure you guys would enjoy them that much.

.....

Elliott.

Well, I'M not going to complain about seeing clips of athletic young ladies!!!!
;)


(Sure gotta be more enjoyable than seeing some ugly lunk like Hafner...)

[swingbuster]

The Posse were committed students and more committed to the financial success and promotion of their friend Steve.

They believe in him and support him....that is what friends do.

They did more than just participate at B-F for a time waiting for the " new site" to be built.

Their absence now would suggest they all used this venue against it's rules openly for personal reasons.

Most of the members on the new site are past purchasers of the DVD series so in essence it is a pre-pay-for-view. Not a bad system to protect the presentation of intellectual properties.

When they learn how to load the upper body in synch with the rotation of the lower body they will have a complete knowledge of hitting. :laugh

Mankin is right here..

the hips rotate ahead of the shoulders due to added load the shoulders have of accelerating the bat around the swing plane.

They do not know how to put the load on the shoulders as the move to hit begins


It is just the off- season and the visits will kick up after Christmas when the cold wind blows driving people back on line

[PullFactor]

The Posse were committed students and more committed to the financial success and promotion of their friend Steve.

They believe in him and support him....that is what friends do.

They did more than just participate at B-F for a time waiting for the " new site" to be built.

Their absence now would suggest they all used this venue against it's rules openly for personal reasons.

Most of the members on the new site are past purchasers of the DVD series so in essence it is a pre-pay-for-view. Not a bad system to protect the presentation of intellectual properties.

When they learn how to load the upper body in synch with the rotation of the lower body they will have a complete knowledge of hitting. :laugh

Mankin is right here..



They do not know how to put the load on the shoulders as the move to hit begins


It is just the off- season and the visits will kick up after Christmas when the cold wind blows driving people back on line
And I guess your solution to that would be either BHUT or step today, and swing next week?

[EvanAparra]

this place sure got boring.and not quite as sophisticated .:laugh :laugh :laugh :waving

Yeah, cause your ZZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzz post was VERY sophisticated. :laugh

A kid wants to know about batting gloves, and if eveyone used them, you're pretty much a jerk for making fun of him. But i guess thats sophistication now a days.

[Jake Patterson]

Guys,
This thread is becoming a little off topic. Those who have been around for a while know where Richard, Steve and others went and why. Steve did so to try and build something for himself.

BBF is the largest BB online site in the world. Once things get going during the winter I am certain others will find us and we can have as meaningful discussion as we did this past spring and summer. I personally would rather have a wide spectrum of forumers asking what ever legitimate questions they may have rather than a very narrow list of contributors beating the same thing to death. I think it's great that these young guys feel comfortable asking these questions. Most of us are coaches - our job is to teach.

Just my humble opinion.
Jake

[fungo22]

The Posse were committed students and more committed to the financial success and promotion of their friend Steve.So now you're psychic, like Tom?


They did more than just participate at B-F for a time waiting for the " new site" to be built.

Their absence now would suggest they all used this venue against it's rules openly for personal reasons. Psychic or not, you don't know what you're talking about. Our (relative) absence here now suggests nothing of the kind. It might simply suggest that we're busy elsewhere. It suggests nothing about the past or why we were here. Some things never change. Your inability to reason and draw valid inferences is one of them.

Most of the members on the new site are past purchasers of the DVD series so in essence it is a pre-pay-for-view. Not a bad system to protect the presentation of intellectual properties. You dang skippy.

[swingbuster]

And I guess your solution to that would be either BHUT or step today, and swing next week?

They got back sooner than I said.... not sooner than I thought.


My solution is Mankin's solution. ...

Learn how to load the upper body and begin the swing with the correct forces creating resistance to segment the hips and shoulders naturally, yield bottom hand dominance at launch, and create top hand whip at contact utilizing an inside / out stroke.

You either have some idea how to do that or you don't. If you don't you are not on the path to a high level swing.... IMHO. I did not make this up. I learned it from others and I believe it to be true.

[tom.guerry]

Anything new Greg ?

[PullFactor]

Yeah, cause your ZZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzz post was VERY sophisticated. :laugh

A kid wants to know about batting gloves, and if eveyone used them, you're pretty much a jerk for making fun of him. But i guess thats sophistication now a days.
No offense to Richmond Hill whatever, but I think it's pretty easy to turn on the TV and get a brief idea of who wears them and who doesn't.

[PullFactor]

To be honest, when I found this forum, the first people I found to have beliefs I could agree with on an intellectual, scientific and logical level were Steve and his posse.

I think everyone who seriously used/s this forum for honest, scientific discussion of what creates an effective swing realizes that, while sometimes (in general) the posse were not always the most well-met crowd, they were for certain and by far some of the most informative and knowledgeable people you could discuss a high-level swing with.

I don't think the fact that they have migrated says anything about their purpose in coming to this board to begin with. Yes, they recommended their friend's work, but, regardless, it was and still is simply the best piece of hitting instruction available. What they did not have to do, however, if their purpose was to advertise Steve's stuff, was dedicate an immense amount of time to spreading their own personal beliefs, and advice seperately from their collective opinion. I don't think it would have taken all of that invested time to get people to buy Steve's DVDs.

There is simply a better place to discuss a high-level swing nowadays.

I think the fact that board activity is probably not even 5% of what it was two months ago says that other people, besides me, agree that this board's best source of information has diminished greatly. And if you want to look at my posts, you'll see I'm not the guy who's respect is easily earned or kept.

PF

[jbooth]

There is simply a better place to discuss a high-level swing nowadays.


Where is that place?

[chesspirate]

So, when you need a good mechanic or plumber or electrician, do you research those fields, take some courses then search the yellow pages and interview a bunch of them to figure out who most closely agrees with your thoughts on the subject?

OR

Take advice or services from a proffesional because of a good or great reference from a friend?

I had heard many good things about Steve, so when he came to my nick of the woods, i went to see him and thought that the praise of him at the time was modest.

I felt others could benefit, so if someone had a question i would suggest finding out about Steve or his stuff. Sounds simple enough to me.

[Jake Patterson]

I think the fact that board activity is probably not even 5% of what it was two months ago says that other people, besides me, agree that this board's best source of information has diminished greatly. PF

Over the last week we have had nearly 7000 views and 400 posts. And we are at the end of the baseball season and well into football season.

Those who feel information is better elsewhere should just go elsewhere.

[fungo22]

Those who feel information is better elsewhere should just go elsewhere. Kind of touchy, aren't we? Information is important, and it may very well be better elsewhere, but that doesn't mean this isn't still a good forum. It is what it is.

Pullfactor: I like the way you think ... and write. Nice post.

[Jake Patterson]

Kind of touchy, aren't we? Information is important, and it may very well be better elsewhere, but that doesn't mean this isn't still a good forum. It is what it is. Pullfactor: I like the way you think ... and write. Nice post.

Not touchy - I agree information is important. What I am struggling with is whether or not the information in this particular thread is of any use to those visiting here or the intent of BBF in general. Fungo and Pull - What is it you would want BBF to do with the fact that others have left? Ask them back?

PS; I agree with Steve being great at what he does, but he chose to move on....

[Ifubuildit]

I dont think Steve made a choice to move on as much as he has had to make a choice to support his customers. There are many and growing each day. He has discovered that providing the kind of support he does on his web site is very labor intensive.

You of all people should understand that, if you run and monitor this forum. Having done some of what Steve is doing right now in my past, I know I was often up until the wee hours of the morning responding to email and making modifications to my site. My customer base was a lot smaller than his is today.

He is responding to damn near every question posed on his web site about his hitting methods. Pretty intense for a business model. That would be the reason he has left here and may never return.

Elliott.

[fungo22]

What I am struggling with is whether or not the information in this particular thread is of any use to those visiting here or the intent of BBF in general. Can't help you there, but surely not every post in every thread has to be "of use" to those visiting.

Fungo and Pull - What is it you would want BBF to do with the fact that others have left? Ask them back?
Not much BBF can do. In fact BBF doesn't have to agree that things were better in the days of yesteryear. Not all discussion on the forum has to be a call for action. Just let people talk.

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: The Posse were committed students and more committed to the financial success and promotion of their friend Steve.
They believe in him and support him....that is what friends do.

They did more than just participate at B-F for a time waiting for the " new site" to be built.

Their absence now would suggest they all used this venue against it's rules openly for personal reasons. I'm not sure what makes one a member of The Posse or not. If, as seemed to be the case, the membership requirements were (a) being banned by Nyman from the Hitting-mechanics.org site, (b) believing in the general principles of PCR, and (c) believing that Steve had a better understanding of the physiological components of such a swing than just about anyone and that he was also astonishingly effective at teaching it to people (based on the accolades offered by others), I guess I too could be considered a member of that Posse -- assuming that there were no requirements of actually being a skilled baseball hitter or thinker.

With that said, I don't think folks came to support Steve because he was their friend, but rather came to think of him with friendly thoughts because of his skills combined with his unfailing gentleness and generosity of spirit, even towards Nyman. Perhaps others who contribute to this thread are envious that, in the "marketplace of ideas", they haven't attracted that kind of following. But I've never heard any Posse members say, "Let's all support Steve and his website so he can make money," although those of us who are in the business world have joked that he's got one of the worst business models around.

But, I think it's somewhat paranoid to think that everyone plotted to somehow abuse and exploit this Board solely as a means to somehow ultimately advance the interests of Steve's business. Heck, I'd guess most folks either didn't know Steve was seriously planning to set up his own web site or, if he was, questioned whether it would actually get off the ground. The argument that some people now spend time elsewhere rather than here is hardly proof that the original intention at the time of their postings here was to aid such a potential site -- in fact, it's downright silly. And, c'mon, regardless of motives, a lot of good information has been and continues to be distributed here at no charge by these folks. Sound like truly evil people to me. ;)

The fact is that anyone who asks a serious question or posts a swing still gets serious attention from solid thinkers and arguable "posse members". Heck, any one of five or six different people who've been posting in this thread alone can give you a pretty good PCR analysis or your kid's swing, including but not limited to SSarge, Fungo, Woggy, and JBooth, among others. And look at all the good analysis given in the "8 y/o swing" thread that Jim Booth just started.

Yeah, it's fun to see some of the miscreants swing against each other and pad the threads with dozens of nasty posts. But, if you're looking for the substance they offer, it's still available here. Just ask.

[LClifton]

Originally Posted by cartersball
Well said Jake . I was trying to think of a good way to put that. You might add though that some of them were unceremoniusly booted for a period of time also. But thats over with I believe.


Not some - just one
I like your posts Jake, always have. This one, however, is wrong.

If you want to Pm me, I'll explain.

[Jake Patterson]

I dont think Steve made a choice to move on as much as he has had to make a choice to support his customers. There are many and growing each day. He has discovered that providing the kind of support he does on his web site is very labor intensive.

You of all people should understand that, if you run and monitor this forum. Having done some of what Steve is doing right now in my past, I know I was often up until the wee hours of the morning responding to email and making modifications to my site. My customer base was a lot smaller than his is today.

He is responding to damn near every question posed on his web site about his hitting methods. Pretty intense for a business model. That would be the reason he has left here and may never return.

Elliott.

Elliot Fully understand and have spoke to Steve Via Email.
I wish him all the luck in the world and as I said respect him for what he does and how he does it - but that has nothing to do with this particular thread.

Part of my job is to insure the threads are bringing value to those who participate at BBF not other sites. Lamenting over how the talent level here has declined because others have chose to move to another site brings little in the way of intelligent baseball discussion.

I do not feel that Steve had anything but good things to say here and taht he had ulterior motives other than his passion about talking about baseball. As I have said repeatidly, I respect, and miss the discussion also, but it is time to move on. I agree with Ursa. Post a swing and you'll get valuable feedback.

[Jake Patterson]

Can't help you there, but surely not every post in every thread has to be "of use" to those visiting.

Not much BBF can do. In fact BBF doesn't have to agree that things were better in the days of yesteryear. Not all discussion on the forum has to be a call for action. Just let people talk.

Fungo - agree on all accounts.

[bbjunkie]

I am not, apparently, considered a posse member. (I think there must be a threshold number of posts necessary to be a member, and I didn't fulfill Ursa's first criterion of being banned from Nyman's board) Although I didn't post enough, I did on occasion defend Steve's methods on this board. I bought his dvd's and even brought him up to my neighborhood. I go to his site often and have found it very helpful and informative.

I guess I view BBF's role in Steve's success a little differently than some. I learned about Steve here as many others did, and profited (not financially)from that awareness. I see Steve's site as a kind of spin off from this board. I think he would agree that his current success is partially attributable to the relationships with others that were developed on this site. It is a tribute to BBF that people seriously interested in many aspects of baseball knowledge can come here to learn and share knowledge in a usually civil manner. There are others, including Jake and ifubuiltit, whose outside endeavors have most likely also benefitted from exposure on this site.

I would hope that contributors would have a little generosity of spirit and wish Steve and others well in their ventures that have evolved outside this board. Also, the overseers of BBF deserve a great deal of credit for building a site where baseball devotees can learn and teach.

[wogdoggy]

It's in the eye of the beholder so look at the bright side. They're out there saving the rest of the world from themselves.


and wristhitting..God bless them

[hellborn]

No offense to Richmond Hill whatever, but I think it's pretty easy to turn on the TV and get a brief idea of who wears them and who doesn't.
I need to rely on you guys who shell out for cable. :p
It's more or less impossible to see any baseball on broadcast TV in the Boston area these days.
And I prefer to use the $1k/year or whatever that cable costs to buy sporting equipment and play myself.

[hellborn]

To be honest, when I found this forum, the first people I found to have beliefs I could agree with on an intellectual, scientific and logical level were Steve and his posse.

......

There is simply a better place to discuss a high-level swing nowadays.

I think the fact that board activity is probably not even 5% of what it was two months ago says that other people, besides me, agree that this board's best source of information has diminished greatly. And if you want to look at my posts, you'll see I'm not the guy who's respect is easily earned or kept.

PF
I agree that there was a lot of really high-level swing info flying around a while ago, but, in my opinion, not much of it was of use to somebody who was not already in a particular club. And, requests for elucidation in terms that would make more sense to the non-specialist were usually met with derision and a suggestion to "do your homework".
4 or 5 people conducted a twinspeak discussion on this site using their own patois that was probably very meaningful to them, but I have to say that it doesn't mean much to me that they're gone. If they found a better site for exploring their interests, more power to them. If they come back here, fine. Just doesn't mean much to me either way.
I guess what did help me was learning that somebody like Steve Englishbey exists and to put the bug in my head that it might be worth studying his DVDs, or something like them, if I want to really work on my swing in the future. Beyond that, it was mostly yada-yada to me...not that anybody on this site is obliged to entertain or enlighten me.
Oh, the swing clips were usually good...the words with them, less so.

[Ifubuildit]

I dont think your expertise level has declined just taken a break. ;) You run a great board here and as BB pointed out it has true value. If it didnt you wouldnt see me posting on here. Even if some of it was more in the line differing opinions about how to hit a ball.

I never posted on Nymans site. There was a reason for that. There was too much belittling done by the boards owner there. Something that, while it does happen here now and then, (Belittling of each other) its not in the context of just being mean and degrading for the sake of winning a point.

I often get parents who come to me with questions about this movement or set up in their kids stance or swing from a coach and they ask me why he is telling them to do that. I can generally tell now what coaches have been reading Epstien, Mankin, Englishbey Ect based on the set up of the swing.

A lot of that recognition factor has improved because of your site and the conversations I have read and participated in on here. The knowledge base is excellent.

Steve and Tom while they have their differences of opinion have given all of us a lot to contemplate and think about in their discussions on this board. Lively no doubt. Of value. Without question.

Those that miss the posse are missing the content that they provided and contributed as well as the bantering. :radio I dont get as vocal as some of them but I could and do if I feel something is way out of line. That is what got me in trouble with Nyman on his pitching site he closed. :grouchy

I have been reading Tom for many years now and while I may not always agree with him he often makes me think in ways I had not considered and that too is of value.

What sold me on Steve was I like his methods of teaching. Even more so now that I just spent the last weekend watching him in person. That blows the DVD's away. Actually seeing him swing is impressive. How he ties his personal appearance together with the information on his DVDs.

Seriously priceless.

I am not inclined to exagerate. He does things in person that really pull it all together for hitters. Very quickly.

I will continue to contribute when I get a little less busy.

Elliott.

[Mark H]

And, requests for elucidation in terms that would make more sense to the non-specialist were usually met with....and a suggestion to "do your homework".

If you don't go through the process of figuring it out for yourself with help along the way as you ask questions that show you are digging on your own, you will have been cheated. Much truth to the old saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

[GFK]

If you don't go through the process of figuring it out for yourself with help along the way as you ask questions that show you are digging on your own, you will have been cheated. Much truth to the old saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

Read, research, review video
rinse and repeat as needed

[hellborn]

If you don't go through the process of figuring it out for yourself with help along the way as you ask questions that show you are digging on your own, you will have been cheated. Much truth to the old saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

Good post...I wasn't in the process of really researching swing mechanics, so what was posted on this website was not of much meaning to me. I was interested enough to ask some questions, but the "teachers" probably didn't want to have to recover an immense amount of ground to try to bring me up to the speed of their high level discussion. Like I said, they didn't owe me anything, and I didn't want to disrupt their discussion. But, it gets back to the point that I don't feel much has been lost to the bulk of BBF users, even on this particular forum, by the "departure" of the "posse"...they were having a very limited discussion, not in technical or intellectual breadth, but in terms of how many users could really comprehend, contribute, and benefit.

[wogdoggy]

They got back sooner than I said.... not sooner than I thought.


My solution is Mankin's solution. ...

Learn how to load the upper body and begin the swing with the correct forces creating resistance to segment the hips and shoulders naturally, yield bottom hand dominance at launch, and create top hand whip at contact utilizing an inside / out stroke.

You either have some idea how to do that or you don't. If you don't you are not on the path to a high level swing.... IMHO. I did not make this up. I learned it from others and I believe it to be true.


how do you hit an inside pitch fair using the circle hand path

[wogdoggy]

So now you're psychic, like Tom?


Psychic or not, you don't know what you're talking about. Our (relative) absence here now suggests nothing of the kind. It might simply suggest that we're busy elsewhere. It suggests nothing about the past or why we were here. Some things never change. Your inability to reason and draw valid inferences is one of them.

You dang skippy.


lol yeah they purchased his dvd ,yeah the steve sight has great stuff that NO OTHER guy has not mankin or anybody.NO he doesnt promote the wait for the ball to pop hands back hitter.

[wogdoggy]

say what you want but there is a void here.this forum has degenerated to how many players wear batting gloves.whats a better bat the combat or the vexum..cmon..the bantering the disagreements the clips the analysis of the clips..we had booth ohfor fungo steve guerry swingy..everybody was goin at it..I learned a heckuva alot here in that time.Its gone now.but if you look you can still find it.You gotst to admit this board hummed back then,,and quite frankly it has ZERO to do with the off season.

[swingbuster]

NO he doesnt promote the wait for the ball to pop hands back hitter.

And I don't promote connect the arms and turn turn turn

[Ursa Major]

Wogdoggy said: How do you hit an inside pitch fair using the circle hand path?
Woggy, I don't think that Mankin and other PCR types differ much on the use of the circular hand path or the way you'd release your hands on an inside pitch. As long as you keep your arms bent and release your hands late, the inside pitch can be a lovely pitch to pop down the left field line. That's sorta what Ursa Minor did in his most important hit of the Spring season -- it wasn't his prettiest swing, but it drove in the winning run in their last regular season game:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/0524DodgersADGamewinnerSm2.gif

And I don't think Mankin promotes the "inside/out" swing the way SwingB describes it. I've looked at his DVD at least half a dozen times (although not recently), and don't recall any "inside out" cues. To be sure, a swing that could be described that way may be the result of a bent arm swing on an outside strike hit deep in the strike zone.

[wogdoggy]

And I don't promote connect the arms and turn turn turn


even my 12 yr old now knows that if his hands start the swing he fails.took him a lil while but he figured it out..if your hands or arms start the swing he only gets the benefit of his 8lb arms..connect them to his torso and now he gets an 80lb swing not an 8lb swing.plus he doesnt get the 16 frame swing the hands and arms promote either.

[Ursa Major]

Hellborn said: Good post...I wasn't in the process of really researching swing mechanics, so what was posted on this website was not of much meaning to me. I was interested enough to ask some questions, but the "teachers" probably didn't want to have to recover an immense amount of ground to try to bring me up to the speed of their high level discussion. I understand what you're saying, guy. When I first tried to learn this stuff, it was kinda Greek to me and so I'd say, "You mean that a person should be doing XYZ?", and certain people would laugh me down. And when people started talking about "internal hip rotation" and the like, I was really lost. I'm still far from expert, but I think I pick up most of it.

I think you need a comprehensive video of some sort to really walk through all the stages of PCR theory as a foundation for adding some of the refinements you're now confused by. Frankly, I started with Mankin's video at Wogdoggy's suggestion and, while there's a lot in his theory that I've been persuaded is not-optimal, some of the basics are well explained.

I think the destination is worth the journey. The beauty is that in some ways it's easier to teach when you pull it all together in your head. I've PM'd you with an additional thought I've got about training videos.

UM

[wogdoggy]

Woggy, I don't think that Mankin and other PCR types differ much on the use of the circular hand path or the way you'd release your hands on an inside pitch. As long as you keep your arms bent and release your hands late, the inside pitch can be a lovely pitch to pop down the left field line. That's sorta what Ursa Minor did in his most important hit of the Spring season -- it wasn't his prettiest swing, but it drove in the winning run in their last regular season game:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/0524DodgersADGamewinnerSm2.gif

And I don't think Mankin promotes the "inside/out" swing the way SwingB describes it. I've looked at his DVD at least half a dozen times (although not recently), and don't recall any "inside out" cues. To be sure, a swing that could be described that way may be the result of a bent arm swing on an outside strike hit deep in the strike zone.


minor turned the knob to the pitcher ..thats why he got that pitch..hard to tell if he pushed it or turned it but he did it,,if he just swung in a circle he would have never got that pitch..the mankin PATHfinder bat would never keep that ball far,,but the turn the knob to the pitcher using the middle is tha correct way.

[swingbuster]

hands start the swing

Woggy..everything in the swing starts moving at once unfortunately. How to get the hands to go back as the hips rotate opposite is what is at stake here.

How to get shoulder resistance to get segmentation is at stake

Mechanisms to stop bat drag are at stake here.

Can you teach all of this at once or must one break these steps apart and possibly change the hand set or loading pattern later after lower body rotation is learned?

Is it easier to teach upper body loading as you teach lower body action

Are they inseparable or not is the question. The answer is " it depends on how good the hitter is". Did Robert Stock hold the bat around the corner and learn to turn or did he use the upper body pattern he has now as a kid?

[Ursa Major]

Woggdoggy said: minor turned the knob to the pitcher ..thats why he got that pitch..hard to tell if he pushed it or turned it but he did it,,if he just swung in a circle he would have never got that pitch..the mankin PATHfinder bat would never keep that ball far,,but the turn the knob to the pitcher using the middle is tha correct way. Gee, you can tell a lot considered it was a grainy video, shot from the back and through a chainlink backstop, with the swing spread out over only three frames. :confused: As I said, it wasn't a pretty swing, but certainly there was some rotation going on there and the hands did "tighten the arc" to produce the angular displacement to get the bat around quickly against a very fast pitcher and smack it down the left field line. Actually, if the truth be told, I just saw it as an opportunity/lame excuse to post an almost relevant .gif of one of Minor's greatest moments. So there! :D

I am curious as to the difference between (a) "turn[ing] the knob to the pitcher using the middle" (which you call the correct way, (b) "turning the knob" the way Minor did, and (c) "[swinging] in a circle" the way you say that Mankin teaches it. (And, I'll admit that Minor didn't use much "middle" on that swing.)

[swingbuster]

(And, I'll admit that Minor didn't use much "middle" on that swing.)

He WILL use secondary adjustments often as the perfect pitch that one can sinply turn through is rather rare in the games I watch.

Having the bat rotate around the hands as the shoulder rotates around the body helps make necessary secondary adjustment with some pop.

THat will come in handy soon enough....heck... seems to be needed even now

[hellborn]

I understand what you're saying, guy. When I first tried to learn this stuff, it was kinda Greek to me and so I'd say, "You mean that a person should be doing XYZ?", and certain people would laugh me down. And when people started talking about "internal hip rotation" and the like, I was really lost. I'm still far from expert, but I think I pick up most of it.

I think you need a comprehensive video of some sort to really walk through all the stages of PCR theory as a foundation for adding some of the refinements you're now confused by. Frankly, I started with Mankin's video at Wogdoggy's suggestion and, while there's a lot in his theory that I've been persuaded is not-optimal, some of the basics are well explained.

I think the destination is worth the journey. The beauty is that in some ways it's easier to teach when you pull it all together in your head. I've PM'd you with an additional thought I've got about training videos.

UM
I think that it would be really fun to get deep into this stuff...just not sure if/when it might happen. Again, the hitting discussion here on BBF has at least served to get me to realize that there are a lot of resources out there to avail myself of if I choose to go down that path.
Thanks for the PM, the understanding, and the suggestions, UM.