Dummy Hoy

[candy curveball cummings]

His name has undoubtly come up somewhere before here, but what are your opinions on Dummy Hoy (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=hoydu01)? Should he be in the Hall of Fame as a player? How about as a contributor?

[PhillyA_man]

Ironically, last night while reading A Game of Inches: The Stories Behind the Innovations That Shaped Baseball Volume 1: The Game on the Field: By Peter Morris. I came across Dummy Hoy in the section about umpires using signals for balls and strikes. Being deaf (he was not dumb) isnt enough to get him into the hall, but 2000 hits over 14 years plus almost 600 SBs is pretty impressive. I'd have to look into him more. Im trying to increase my familiarity of pre-1901 players.

[KCGHOST]

Hoy, a fine player, has no realistic claim to the HoF. Pete Browning, George Gore, Tip O'Neill, Jimmy Ryan, Paul Hines (and a number of others) have stronger claims from exactly that era and they aren't in either.

[jalbright]

I tend to agree with KCGhost here. Hoy was a fine player, but not the best of his own generation. His ability to deal with his handicap is laudable, but we're not going to see Jim Abbott in any time soon, and Abbott has at least as much claim on that basis. I'm willing to listen to a case being made for Hoy, but based on what I know about him, I'd have to say no.

Jim Albright

[honus14]

Agreed. I don't see him going in on his playing merits alone.

As for the handicap, it wasn't so much that he changed the game, as that others changed things to accommodate him. (If that sounds like a slur, it wasn't meant to be. I'm just saying, it wasn't his actions that changed anything in the game.) Who was the umpire who started using signals? I don't know, and I'm not sure anybody does.

Lots of players have overcome handicaps and diseases . . . Jim Abbott (arm), Monte Stratton (leg), Ron Santo (diabetes), Dave Kingman (rectal-cranial inversion :p ) . . . it's just not a Hall of Fame case, in and of itself.

[oscargamblesfro]

Hoy was a good player, but setting aside the importance of the statistic, he only hit .300 a few times, that might be an overrated stat, but it does come into consideration by many. I'm guessing that he's most similar, overall, among inducted players to someone like Harry Hooper, who while a fine player wasn't a solid choice at all. Hoy had great speed, a pretty decent bat and glove and was a fine player.

[candy curveball cummings]

I actually agree with everyone here, and thank you all for your input. What do some of you guys say about claims that Hoy was the best defensive player of his era?

[THE OX]

.....What do some of you guys say about claims that Hoy was the best defensive player of his era?

Well, at least the announcers couldn't say, "He was off with the crack of the bat!"

With his hearing difficulties, he must have had to male some arrangements for "calling for the ball" with his two fellow outfielders. There was an outfielder with the Cincinnati Reds in 1944-45 (Dick Sipek?) who was also deaf or at least had massive hearing loss.

[Fuzzy Bear]

While I don't believe that the HOF should induct Hoy, it could have a special exhibit for Hoy, Jim Abbott, Pete Gray, and others that played overcoming physical handicaps and disabilities. The HOF is a museum, and that would be an appropriate way to recognize the fact that Hoy made the big leagues and stayed in the big leagues.

I would include Eddie Gaedel in that exhibit. In a real way, voiding his contract was a form of discrimination. Where is the rule that mandates a certain height in order to play baseball?

[tommydale1]

While the numbers themselves are impressive (2,000 and 500 SB's) I agree with everyone. Looking at the era and and Hoy's contemporaries, he doesn't have much of a claim.

Curtis Pride for the Hall!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fuzzy Bear]

While the numbers themselves are impressive (2,000 and 500 SB's) I agree with everyone. Looking at the era and and Hoy's contemporaries, he doesn't have much of a claim.

Curtis Pride for the Hall!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hoy was a WHOLE LOT BETTER than Curtis Pride. :clapping :clapping :clapping

[honus14]

With his hearing difficulties, he must have had to male some arrangements for "calling for the ball" with his two fellow outfielders. There was an outfielder with the Cincinnati Reds in 1944-45 (Dick Sipek?) who was also deaf or at least had massive hearing loss.

I seem to recall reading that Hoy normally played CF, and his fieldmates would simply take any ball if they didn't hear Hoy call them off (I seem to remember that he made a somewhat startling noise to call for the ball.)

Here's a site advocating his election, and (possibly not coincidentally) advertising an upcoming biography:

"Dummy Hoy Homeplate" (http://www.dummyhoy.com/destination_cooperstown/index.html)

[PhillyA_man]

I think looking at Hoy is a challenge especially when considering the era in which he played. As I had questioned earlier
(http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=48921)

the challenge for Hoy is looking at his stats in context of his era. He has some pretty nice stats, but he played a slightly different game than we know now. Mixing in his handicap makes his production that more impressive.

[Steve.Sandy]

Baseball fanatics, its important to keep talking about Dummy Hoy. He has already made the necessary qualification to be select and induct into the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Yes, his name is on the ballot along with other 259 names. One day after the world series will make an announcement about getting support to send email or hand written/typewritten with letterhead to the Veterans Committee. It must be done before December, 2006 which they will select 25 to 30 names for consideration and then in January/February 2007 will vote for the top 75% for induction which will be held in July 2007. Also there is a documentary which is in the works and hope to be complete before November for the 1st Film Festival, and many didn't know there is a feature film in the works. Seriously looking for investors to make it off the ground. The script is just perfect as I have read it. Connie Mack, Sam Wahoo Crawford, Clark Griffith, Frank Selee, Honus "The Flying Dutchman" Wagner, and few others 19th Century inductee had teamed with Dummy Hoy. Quite a few of them has mentioned that Dummy Hoy ought to be in the Hall of Fame. He was one of the most humblest and kindest gentleman on the baseball field. That is why he is not an outspoken player such as Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and many others. He wishes two things before he died: "Live to be 100 and be induct into the Hall of Fame." We can't do anything with the first one but we certainly can do the later one.
16 years of research, contact with the families, obtained materials that was owned by Dummy Hoy and I began to feel whats like Dummy Hoy. He also said, "Call me Dummy as always."

[538280]

I think looking at Hoy is a challenge especially when considering the era in which he played. As I had questioned earlier
(http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=48921)

the challenge for Hoy is looking at his stats in context of his era. He has some pretty nice stats, but he played a slightly different game than we know now. Mixing in his handicap makes his production that more impressive.

It is not really that hard to put Hoy in context-just look at the league averages. This will reveal Hoy's main offensive skill was getting on base via the walk. His .287 BA was only slightly above the league average in his time (.281), and his SLG was below average. His main gift was the OBP. Hoy was basically the same model as Richie Ashburn, just not as good a BA. This makes him a very decent player, and with considerable longevity such a player could merit induction to the HOF, but Hoy doesn't have that.

I don't think it is appropriate to give a player a bonus for any disabilities he may have. The HOF is about electing great players-and Hoy's disability is part of his skill set and thus part of what defines his value. I would like the idea mentioned by others, perhaps an exhibit in the HOF dedicated to players like Hoy and Jim Abbott who overcame disabilities, but nothing more.

[wamby]

There was an outfielder with the Cincinnati Reds in 1944-45 (Dick Sipek?) who was also deaf or at least had massive hearing loss.

DIck Sipek was profoundly deaf. From what I've read, it sounds like Hoy was profoundly deaf, also. I believe that he was a deaf-mute.

[rugbyfreak]

His name has undoubtly come up somewhere before here, but what are your opinions on Dummy Hoy? Should he be in the Hall of Fame as a player? How about as a contributor?

Good job starting this thread, Candy-man. You beat me to it, since I've always taken a special interest in Hoy.

In spite of my admiration for his career, I have to agree he's not quite HOF material. This is no knock on him whatsoever--there are many players I deem great, but not quite HOF. This is simply because I believe in keeping the HOF bar high. I also do not believe in giving handicapped players "extra credit", which again is not a harsh viewpoint at all. Just ask any handicapped person you know, and they will all tell you the last thing they want in life is "pity points"; they simply want an equal opportunity to go after life's prizes, and to be judged by the same standards as anyone else in that pursuit.

That said, I fully support fuzzybear's proposal that the Hall start an exhibit to recognize players such as Hoy, Gray and Abbott, who overcame tremendous odds just to make the majors, which IS a HOF-worthy achievement. Some thoughts:

Abbott: As a Yankee fan, I gave them credit for trading for the lefty back in '92. This being the Yankees, who had always been baseball's most practical and unsentimental movers of personel, you could be sure this was nothing but a baseball move (although there was a cynical minority who viewed it as a PR stunt by the rebuilding Yanks). New York simply believed he could help their rotation. When he pitched a no-hitter that first spring, I considered it one of the inspirational moments in team history. Well, it didn't quite work out in fairy-tale fashion--he was gone after going 20-22 over two seasons, which at the time I shrugged off as simply part of the business. But years later, I've come to believe that the Yanks missed a great opportunity. I believe there would have been a tasteful way to enlist Abbott as a point-person, or spokesman, or what have you, to strike a blow for the great possibilities awaiting challenged athletes who believed in themselves. Granted, if done poorly, it could come off as a cheap PR ploy by the Yanks to puff themselves up as some great humanistic organization, with Abbott as the one-armed pawn. Then again, NY is a media capital, and I'm quite sure some great marketing minds could have been enlisted to figure it out.

Gray: It always pisses me off when writers scoff at Gray's promotion to the majors as a desperate ploy by the Browns that was possible only in a war-depleted league. I say rubbish. For one thing, the Browns, for once, were not desperate--they were defending AL champs when they brought up Gray in '45. Plus, Gray had been Southern League Player of the Year with the Memphis Chicks. If being a AAA POY doesn't merit a guy a shot in The Show, then the farm system is meaningless. Did you ever try to hit a hardball with one hand?! The world needed to see what this guy was about.

Hoy: I see that you guys, like me, grew up with the lore that umpires' use of hand signals was borne of Hoy's request. And I have to admit, the story makes perfect sense. But in recent years, I read somewhere that this, in fact, was not the genesis of hand signals (but I cannot remember where I read it). There is a whole culture of "myth debunkers" out there; sometimes they're right, sometimes not. Can any of you help me here?

Finally, in today's PC world, it's a little amusing, even a little shocking, to look back on the nicknames baseball once routinely gave to players who were different. Deaf-mutes were always "Dummy", Indians were "Chief", German immigrants were "Heinie", and so on. It's especially interesting that, even though today we wouldn't dream of naming players that way, and are ever striving for more correctness, we never attempt to revise history by changing the old names. Dummy Hoy is never William, Chief Meyers is never John, and the Negro Leagues are never the African-American Leagues. I'm not sure what that all says, but I've always found it interesting.

Thanks for listening!

freak

[Rose4theHall]

While I don't believe that the HOF should induct Hoy, it could have a special exhibit for Hoy, Jim Abbott, Pete Gray, and others that played overcoming physical handicaps and disabilities. The HOF is a museum, and that would be an appropriate way to recognize the fact that Hoy made the big leagues and stayed in the big leagues.

I would include Eddie Gaedel in that exhibit. In a real way, voiding his contract was a form of discrimination. Where is the rule that mandates a certain height in order to play baseball?

I definitely agree that overcoming tremendous physical odds should warrant a special exhibit in the HOF, I have thought about making a case for Gray, Abbott et al just because its obvious they would have been better players with all their apendages but an exhibit seems like the least that could happen.

Eddie Gaedel was a media stunt though, he had no prior experience and was not a player. Its terrible that he is even mentioned and his jersey is in the HOF. He shouldnt ever be talked about as he never was a real player at any level.

[wamby]

Gray: It always pisses me off when writers scoff at Gray's promotion to the majors as a desperate ploy by the Browns that was possible only in a war-depleted league. I say rubbish. For one thing, the Browns, for once, were not desperate--they were defending AL champs when they brought up Gray in '45. Plus, Gray had been Southern League Player of the Year with the Memphis Chicks. If being a AAA POY doesn't merit a guy a shot in The Show, then the farm system is meaningless. Did you ever try to hit a hardball with one hand?! The world needed to see what this guy was about.



I have to disagree about Gray. I think his appearance was strictly a publicity thing. I think Gray was exploited and I think he thought he was being exploited also. Several of Gray's teammates thoiught that he cost the Browns the 1945 pennant.

In my opinion, if the atomic bomb hadn't been dropped in Aug, 1945, the big leagues may have folded up the tent after 1945 and shut down until the war was over. Pete Gray would have been exhibit #1 as to why they would have shut down.

[PhillyA_man]

DIck Sipek was profoundly deaf. From what I've read, it sounds like Hoy was profoundly deaf, also. I believe that he was a deaf-mute.

Actually he wasn't a true deaf mute; he contracted meningitis when he was a young child which led to his deafness, but was still able to speak with a high-pitched "squeaky" voice.

Hoy: I see that you guys, like me, grew up with the lore that umpires' use of hand signals was borne of Hoy's request. And I have to admit, the story makes perfect sense. But in recent years, I read somewhere that this, in fact, was not the genesis of hand signals (but I cannot remember where I read it). There is a whole culture of "myth debunkers" out there; sometimes they're right, sometimes not. Can any of you help me here?

According to A Game of Inches: The Stories Behind the Innovations That Shaped Baseball Volume 1: The Game on the Field: By Peter Morris, Dummy Hoy had only a small role in the development of hand signals

[Fuzzy Bear]

Eddie Gaedel was a media stunt though, he had no prior experience and was not a player. Its terrible that he is even mentioned and his jersey is in the HOF. He shouldnt ever be talked about as he never was a real player at any level.

What's a "real player"? Gaedel probably could do nothing BUT draw walks, but what would be wrong with that? Had an owner other than Veeck signed Gaedel, there wouldn't have been the uproar. Of course, no other owner would have signed Gaedel.

[wamby]

Actually he wasn't a true deaf mute; he contracted meningitis when he was a young child which led to his deafness, but was still able to speak with a high-pitched "squeaky" voice.






I've read that Hoy was able to produce a high pitch squeek, but don't know if he was able to use that squeek for actual speaking. He very well might have been, even if he was deafened pre-lingually. In the era when he grew up there was a real bias in teaching manual communication and he very well may have been trainied in the oral method. I do think that in all likelihood that he was a deaf-mute.

[Rose4theHall]

What's a "real player"? Gaedel probably could do nothing BUT draw walks, but what would be wrong with that? Had an owner other than Veeck signed Gaedel, there wouldn't have been the uproar. Of course, no other owner would have signed Gaedel.

I shouldnt have to explain why Gaedel shouldnt be looked at as a real player. He was a legitimate publicity stunt, getting a little person to hit so he could walk? Thats not part of the game. Gaedel never played professionally or semi-pro or even amateur ball, thats what I mean by "not a real player". He popped out of a cake before his debut game for cryin out loud.

I dont think Pete Gray was a pubicity stunt as bad a Gaedel, he put up decent numbers for a guy with 1 arm and he played for several semi-pro teams before getting called up to the Browns.

[ElHalo]

I tend to agree with KCGhost here. Hoy was a fine player, but not the best of his own generation. His ability to deal with his handicap is laudable, but we're not going to see Jim Abbott in any time soon, and Abbott has at least as much claim on that basis. I'm willing to listen to a case being made for Hoy, but based on what I know about him, I'd have to say no.

Jim Albright

I tend to disagree on this. Abbott, as he stands, has no HoF case. But imagine if Abbott had had a very good, but by no means HoF, career. Say, a David Wells career. In that event, I'd be jumping up and down to get him into the Hall, just on the sheer audacity of being able to come along and do something like that.

[rugbyfreak]

I tend to disagree on this. Abbott, as he stands, has no HoF case. But imagine if Abbott had had a very good, but by no means HoF, career. Say, a David Wells career. In that event, I'd be jumping up and down to get him into the Hall, just on the sheer audacity of being able to come along and do something like that.

But, see, that would be getting into the "extra credit" thing that I previously stated was--in my opinion--so dangerous, when you talk about keeping the standard of the Hall at a high level. Unless Abbott--or anyone else like him--put up a career that stood up on its own merits, and in effect, voters were obliged to "forget" all about the handicap, then you're into a dicey new mindset. If Abbott put up a Wells-like career, it would have to be considered, just like Wells', a border-line case. If Jim had hung up a truly HOF career, no one would be cheering louder than I, since as an athletic acheivement, it would be truly sublime, due to the extra challenge involved.

Don't mean to sound cold about this, but I repeat one thing: I believe most physically challenged athletes would agree with me here: They never want extra credit, or "pity points", for what they do. Extra kudos, headlines, praise, speaking engagements, on the other hand--all of that is richly deserved when you do what they do. Thanks for listening!

freak

[jalbright]

I'm largely with rugbyfreak on this one. If an Abbott or a Hoy was a borderline case on his own merits, I could see the wisdom in inducting such a player. After all, some gray area guys make it, some don't, and such a gray area guy would have an inspirational story to tell and would be enormously "famous". But, under EH's example, the player is clearly not a HOFer without factoring in the handicap. At that point, how close is close enough? Is it Hoy? Is it Abbott? Is it Monty Stratten, who IIRC never played in the majors after his accident, regardless of what the movie said.

Jim Albright

[tommydale1]

I tend to disagree on this. Abbott, as he stands, has no HoF case. But imagine if Abbott had had a very good, but by no means HoF, career. Say, a David Wells career. In that event, I'd be jumping up and down to get him into the Hall, just on the sheer audacity of being able to come along and do something like that.

ElHalo hits it on the head here. On a scale of 1-10, 7 gets you enshrined, but a 5 with a disability could get you in. Although, I must say, I think I think it would be harder the play baseball without a hand than without hearing...but I have experience at neither, so I'll keep my mouth shut. I the case of Abbott and Hoy...Hoy has to have a Rusty Staub career where Abbott only has to do a Charlie Hough.

[Steve.Sandy]

I seem to recall reading that Hoy normally played CF, and his fieldmates would simply take any ball if they didn't hear Hoy call them off (I seem to remember that he made a somewhat startling noise to call for the ball.)

Here's a site advocating his election, and (possibly not coincidentally) advertising an upcoming biography:

"Dummy Hoy Homeplate" (http://www.dummyhoy.com/destination_cooperstown/index.html)

You are correct, Dummy Hoy had made that "ideal" so other players would not run into him until they hear his audible yell, it may not make sense to you but it makes sense to the players around him. Hoy also said that to his players be no afraid that if I run behind you, I will not grab the ball from you I am simply assisting in case you drop the ball. They (players) would hear him running behind him due to the shoes Hoy was wearing. It has tongue that was flapping every running step he made. (Old fashion shoes that he peronally made it - his occupation was shoe cobbler before he went pro)

[Steve.Sandy]

His name has undoubtly come up somewhere before here, but what are your opinions on Dummy Hoy (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=hoydu01)? Should he be in the Hall of Fame as a player? How about as a contributor?
He should be in the Hall of Fame as a player. He has enough qualifications to make it. Only the 80 plus Veterans Committee has to select him for the top 25 to 30 in December and vote for him in the top 75%. Increasily enough several dealers has been increasing or hoarding anything related to Dummy Hoy. The last site I checked, Dummy Hoy baseball card is worth 2500 to 3000 dollars. But once Hoy is inducted, the value of the card will increase any-fold.

[Captain Cold Nose]

He should be in the Hall of Fame as a player. He has enough qualifications to make it. Only the 80 plus Veterans Committee has to select him for the top 25 to 30 in December and vote for him in the top 75%. Increasily enough several dealers has been increasing or hoarding anything related to Dummy Hoy. The last site I checked, Dummy Hoy baseball card is worth 2500 to 3000 dollars. But once Hoy is inducted, the value of the card will increase any-fold.
The 80 plus VC hasn't elected anybody yet during their short tenure.
Baseball card value is a poor indicator of HOF worthiness, as well as not a solid predictor of election.
Hall induction, through my experience, does little for card value. Carl Yastrzemski, for instance, had his rookie card decrease substantially upon election.

[Steve.Sandy]

Is Yaz in the Hall of Fame?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Is Yaz in the Hall of Fame?
As I stated, his rookie card value decreased after his election.

[Steve.Sandy]

As I stated, his rookie card value decreased after his election.
Applaud to Yaz, as he has been inducted into the Hall, this issue on Dummy Hoy is pre-induct. If Hoy gets in the Hall and his card decrease in value, then thats fine with me. As long as Hoy is inducted.
For 16 years of research, I have come to known as most as about Dummy Hoy speaking with the living families. They believe that Dummy Hoy to be inducted. Unless you didn't know, Dummy Hoy has been inducted 8 times and counting. I have been witnessing all 3 of them. Baseball Reliquary - Shrine of the Eternal, Cincinnati Reds Hall of Fame, and Ohio School for the Deaf Hall of Fame. Another thing, in 1951 and 1952 there was a group of Deaf supporters who were trying to get Hoy in the Old Timers Hall of Fame, but the question remains, who did they contact. Having learned that Connie Mack was on the Committee at that time. Connie wanted Hoy in but it seems he (Connie) was out-voted. Could tell you as much on Hoy, but lets hope and wait till the documentary and feature film if ever be released soon.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Applaud to Yaz, as he has been inducted into the Hall, this issue on Dummy Hoy is pre-induct. If Hoy gets in the Hall and his card decrease in value, then thats fine with me. As long as Hoy is inducted.
For 16 years of research, I have come to known as most as about Dummy Hoy speaking with the living families. They believe that Dummy Hoy to be inducted. Unless you didn't know, Dummy Hoy has been inducted 8 times and counting. I have been witnessing all 3 of them. Baseball Reliquary - Shrine of the Eternal, Cincinnati Reds Hall of Fame, and Ohio School for the Deaf Hall of Fame. Another thing, in 1951 and 1952 there was a group of Deaf supporters who were trying to get Hoy in the Old Timers Hall of Fame, but the question remains, who did they contact. Having learned that Connie Mack was on the Committee at that time. Connie wanted Hoy in but it seems he (Connie) was out-voted. Could tell you as much on Hoy, but lets hope and wait till the documentary and feature film if ever be released soon.
It seems like you're exactly the type of user we can use in the History forum. As someone who has gone the lenghts to learn about Hoy, perhaps you can fill us in before the film and documentary come out.
I admittedly don't know much about Hoy, but the baseball card issue is not one I look at in tegards to HOF status/worthiness. For anyone.

[Steve.Sandy]

http://www.dacorpictures.com/Welcome.html
Check the link above and you would learn something about the feature film on Dummy Hoy. "The Silent Natural" is the name of the film. Not like, a-la "The Natural" with Robert Redford. Already gotten in touch with Kevin Costner, Robert Redford and few others. They are busy with other productions. If there are interesting investors, give me a ring and I will try to get back to you.
The documentary is still being worked on, but it won't be completed before November 11 for the 1st Film Festival at the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Should there be some serious dollars, then it would be possible to get it complete.
Having been trying to be invited to any place that if anyone who would be interested in hearing this presentation mainly about Dummy Hoy. Already went to Fremont, California, Washington, D.C., and looking forward to Hartford, Connecticut in 2 weeks.
Does the name, Connie Mack, Charlie Comiskey, Honus Wagner, Sam "Wahoo" Crawford, Frank Selee, and Frank Chance mean anything to you? They had teamed with Dummy Hoy and they all have been impressed with Hoy's remarkable skills. Plus it was probably the first to created the "Silent Clap" in other words, the waving hands.

[Steve.Sandy]

Ironically, last night while reading A Game of Inches: The Stories Behind the Innovations That Shaped Baseball Volume 1: The Game on the Field: By Peter Morris. I came across Dummy Hoy in the section about umpires using signals for balls and strikes. Being deaf (he was not dumb) isnt enough to get him into the hall, but 2000 hits over 14 years plus almost 600 SBs is pretty impressive. I'd have to look into him more. Im trying to increase my familiarity of pre-1901 players.
In the old days "dumb" mean mute. Just like a dummy you see at department stores. It didn't mean there was something wrong with the mind.
Most stats shows Hoy from 1888 to 1902, I believe they should add his stats from 1886 to 1903 and his average will be higher.

[Steve.Sandy]

Well, at least the announcers couldn't say, "He was off with the crack of the bat!"

With his hearing difficulties, he must have had to male some arrangements for "calling for the ball" with his two fellow outfielders. There was an outfielder with the Cincinnati Reds in 1944-45 (Dick Sipek?) who was also deaf or at least had massive hearing loss.
Dick Sipek had met Dummy Hoy after one game that Dick was playing, Dick explained that Hoy told him he devised a way to tell the umpire of using the hand signals. So that would be the last time that Dick last saw him. That was in 1945. Hoy passed on 1961 and Dick passed on last year. Thank god I have the letter that Dick typed how he met Dummy Hoy and how the signals came about.

[Steve.Sandy]

I seem to recall reading that Hoy normally played CF, and his fieldmates would simply take any ball if they didn't hear Hoy call them off (I seem to remember that he made a somewhat startling noise to call for the ball.)

Here's a site advocating his election, and (possibly not coincidentally) advertising an upcoming biography:

"Dummy Hoy Homeplate" (http://www.dummyhoy.com/destination_cooperstown/index.html)

Correct, Hoy would shout a throaty call in saying he got the ball, other times he would wave that he would get the ball and do not run into me. Other times he would run behind the left filders or the right fielders, they get scared of running into each other when they heard Hoy running behind them. He advised them that he is in no way gonna grab the ball, he is there to assist in case you dropped the ball. Connie Mack had labeled Hoy one of the smartest man on the field. He didn't need any coaching to tell him where to throw the ball. He just knew which way the runner would run. Not one, not twice but three times in the game that Hoy had thrown from the deepest part of the centerfield to homeplate (Connie Mack) without a bounce or relay, was throwing strikes from the centerfield.

[philipthegreat]

Along with being one of most interesting stories in baseball he had a pretty good record and he finished in the top 20 all time in stolen bases. Is he deserving of VC pick?

[jalbright]

About the only way I'm listening is if you can convince me that the fact they had to use signals to communicate with him really changed the game. Even then, I want to know what he personally did to make it happen, other than be deaf. No doubt he's an interesting and even inspirational story, but so is Jim Abbott. He's a good player, but nowhere near HOF caliber. I'm not in favor of puting him in the HOF just because he had a disability. He strove to compete with healthy people and earned a spot on that basis, and when it comes to the HOF, he should basically do the same thing. By that standard, he's not good enough.

[leecemark]

--If you are a big fan of Hoy you might make your case in the Progressive Hall of Fame thread. He is in his debut year (1907) in the voting there. I doubt he has any real chance of election, but maybe you can generate enough interest to keep him on ballot for more than one years worth of discussion.

[jjpm74]

Hoy was a great player with a very long relationship with baseball (over 70 years in different capacities). However, he didn't do anything that makes him stand out that would make his career a HOF career. He was good enough to get a vote from me in his first year of eligibility for the progressive HOF, but that's mainly because he's better than a 1 and gone candidate IMO. He won't be getting a vote from me in 1908.

I like Hoy's story and maybe he's the best deaf player in the history of baseball. That doesn't make him a HOFer.

[Cowtipper]

Many of Hoy's stolen bases may not be stolen bases at all according to our current definition. As I recall, he played during an era when a stolen base was credited when a player was able to advance more than one base off another player's hit (ie go from first to third).

[Paul Wendt]

at the scorer's discretion.
We don't know how many advances were scored as steals but we can see from the season statistics that it wasn't routine.
I wonder how much we will ever know. Maybe a lot, because one newspaper-season with the necessary detail in its coverage might teach a lot.

--
Hoy suffered a deep mid-1890s batting slump. Five of his six seasons below OPS+ 110 and all three seasons below 100 were 1893-97, the middle five years of his 1888-1902 major league career. Evidently he didn't take any special advantage of the greater pitching distance.

In 1900 he was one of the best players in the American League. Manager Charlie Comiskey liked to begin the game with a walk by Hoy and a sacrifice by Steve Brodie.

[philipthegreat]

About the only way I'm listening is if you can convince me that the fact they had to use signals to communicate with him really changed the game. Even then, I want to know what he personally did to make it happen, other than be deaf. No doubt he's an interesting and even inspirational story, but so is Jim Abbott. He's a good player, but nowhere near HOF caliber. I'm not in favor of puting him in the HOF just because he had a disability. He strove to compete with healthy people and earned a spot on that basis, and when it comes to the HOF, he should basically do the same thing. By that standard, he's not good enough.

If the voters believed that Candy cummings was worthy of the HOF for supposedly inventing the curveball despite his undistinguished playing career they can induct somebody with a better career for supposedly inventing hand signals

[jalbright]

If the voters believed that Candy cummings was worthy of the HOF for supposedly inventing the curveball despite his undistinguished playing career they can induct somebody with a better career for supposedly inventing hand signals

Fine. What I said was two things: convince me how much hand signals changed the game, and how much Hoy is personally responsible for the introduction of those signals. If you provide enough information, I might join you in supporting Hoy. Without it, I'll pass. Also, please don't dredge up old Hall mistakes like Cummings to justify new inclusions. I don't want to simply make better picks than the worst in the Hall--I want to make good picks, period. Mistakes do not address that desire well at all.

[philipthegreat]

[/QUOTE]and how much Hoy is personally responsible for the introductand how much Hoy is personally responsible for the introduction of those signalsion of those signals.[/QUOTE] It is probably based off of circumstantial evidence but I'll research it and get back to you on that.

[dgarza]

If the voters believed that Candy cummings was worthy of the HOF for supposedly inventing the curveball despite his undistinguished playing career they can induct somebody with a better career for supposedly inventing hand signals
Undistinguished career?

While short, I would hardly can his career numbers average or ordinary.
Although not the best, he was one of the better of the day.

[rsuriyop]

If you are all just going to look at his numbers, then you might as well do the same for Ozzie Smith and Bid McPhee and question their Hall credentials as well. Part of Hoy's case rests on him being a top defensive wiz like those other two. And on top of that, he had one of the very best outfield arms of his day.

[Paul Wendt]

Certainly Candy Cummings played a big role in the development of curve pitching, showing teammates and opponents how effective it could be, teaching it to students at Yale (and Princeton?). Probably he was one independent inventor.

There is no evidence that Dummy Hoy played a role in the development of visual signals used by umpires. Teams with deaf players used some visual signals to communicate. After New York acquired Luther Dummy Taylor (1900) there were reports that some of the Giants were learning the sign language.

[KCGHOST]

Bringing up someone like Candy Cummings is a clear obfuscation of the issue at hand: Should Dummy Hoy be in the HoF?? There is nothing in the record that seriously suggests he should be.

[Cowtipper]

These can be combined:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79181&highlight=Dummy

[Cougar]

I tend to agree with KCGhost here. Hoy was a fine player, but not the best of his own generation. His ability to deal with his handicap is laudable, but we're not going to see Jim Abbott in any time soon, and Abbott has at least as much claim on that basis. I'm willing to listen to a case being made for Hoy, but based on what I know about him, I'd have to say no.

Jim Albright

I love Jim Abbott, but Hoy was a much more consequential player than Abbott was.

[Paul Wendt]

I actually agree with everyone here, and thank you all for your input. What do some of you guys say about claims that Hoy was the best defensive player of his era?

I don't recall any remark that Hoy was among the best fielders in the game, in reading limited to the second half of his career. Among contemporary centerfielders Jimmy McAleer, Mike Griffin, and Bill Lange were considered great ones, Hugh Duffy and Steve Brodie at least very good ones. Hoy's successor in Chicago was another great one, Fielder Jones.

Statistics do not support ranking Hoy among the great fielders. If he played backup on many flies that two outfielders could catch, reversing the usual default, then the records may be nearly impossible to interpret.