Eppa Rixey

[PhillyA_man]

Ok...I've been meaning to do this one for a long time....

Eppa Rixey (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=rixeyep01):
Who, What, When, Where, Why and HOW?

I know little about him, don't see his name mentioned very often and taking a quick glance at his stats, Im not impressed. So what's the story?

[KCGHOST]

Rixey was a pretty good pitcher who happened to pitch for a lot of weak teams. His career W-L of 266-251 looks a lot better when expressed as a SNWL of 291-226. He also lost a year to WWI. He is the 8th winningest LHed pitcher in history.

In a more stats oriented evaluation he still looks pretty good. He had an ERA+ of 115, a WHIP of 1.27, and an RCAA of 217. These are all very respectable numbers. Five of his ten best comparables are in the HoF. That puts him as a below average HoFer to be sure, but not an embarrassment.

Think of him as an earlier version of Billy Pierce.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/R/Rixey_Eppa.stm

[Ubiquitous]

I think several things led to his enshrinement. His voting total started to take off when Warren Spahn was approaching his win record. Up until Spahn Rixey was the leader in wins by a left hander in the National league. When Spahn got near his vote total started rising. Before that he got 3 to 5 a year. The second thing is that when he finally got to the VetCom he was near death and his fellow ballplayers probably gave it to him as an honor. A month after he was elected he died. Don't know exactly his medical condition but if he was detiorating and his fellow ballplayers knew it I think that is a factor.

[STLCards2]

Rixey was a pretty good pitcher who happened to pitch for a lot of weak teams. His career W-L of 266-251 looks a lot better when expressed as a SNWL of 291-226. He also lost a year to WWI. He is the 8th winningest LHed pitcher in history.

In a more stats oriented evaluation he still looks pretty good. He had an ERA+ of 115, a WHIP of 1.27, and an RCAA of 217. These are all very respectable numbers. Five of his ten best comparables are in the HoF. That puts him as a below average HoFer to be sure, but not an embarrassment.

Think of him as an earlier version of Billy Pierce.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/R/Rixey_Eppa.stm

Agreed. I have him just outside of the Hall, but he was far better than his W % indicates.

[candy curveball cummings]

Agreed. I have him just outside of the Hall, but he was far better than his W % indicates.

Better than what his percentage was and certainly not the worst pitcher in the Hall of Fame (I don't think he's one of the 5 worst). Unfortunately, there are better pitchers outside of the Hall than him.

[STLCards2]

Better than what his percentage was and certainly not the worst pitcher in the Hall of Fame (I don't think he's one of the 5 worst). Unfortunately, there are better pitchers outside of the Hall than him.


I have 14 guys ahead of Rixey not in Cooperstown:

Blyleven
Gossage
Mays
Tiant
John
Mullane
Kaat
Pierce
Walters
Bridges
Cicotte
Shocker
Warneke and
Ferrell

I still have Rixey ranked #93 All-time, including negor league pitchers and 1800's pitchers.

[candy curveball cummings]

I have 14 guys ahead of Rixey not in Cooperstown:

Blyleven
Gossage
Mays
Tiant
John
Mullane
Kaat
Pierce
Walters
Bridges
Cicotte
Shocker
Warneke and
Ferrell

I still have Rixey ranked #93 All-time, including negor league pitchers and 1800's pitchers.

Great List. I agree with it whole-heartedly. A guy you don't have on there is Jack Quinn. I don't necessarily think he is ahead of Rixey, probably right at the same level, maybe a notch below (although I can see an argument of him being a notch a head of Rixey).

[Fuzzy Bear]

Cicotte shouldn't be on the list for reasons of dishonesty.

[oscargamblesfro]

Isn't it true though that the teams Rixey played for weren't as bad as they are sometimes believed to be? The Phillies won a pennant- in a year that wasn't that great for Rixey- and had some other years where they were contenders, and those Reds teams of the 20's were sometimes pretty strong contenders and had 2nd place finishes, and also some quite impressive pitching staffs, with guys like Luque, Mays, and Donahue too. Yes, he played for some wretched teams too, but it's not exactly like he always played for the Red Sox or Phillies or Braves, or some of those White Sox teams or another generally awful team of that era. I think he's more of a 'squeaks by' kind of guy than a truly solid choice...

[Dalkowski110]

"his fellow ballplayers probably gave it to him as an honor."

I'm surprised ol' Eppa Jeptha's reaction to his induction hasn't been posted by you guys...

"I'm in the Hall of Fame? Wow, they must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"

I'm a big Eppa Rixey fan. Not really sure why, I've just studied him a lot. Like it's been said in this thread before, he's below-average for a HoF'er, but not an embarrasment. The ballplayers probably did want to get him in before he died because he was a good-natured guy who always had a sense of humor and was well-liked by his fellow players.

"Blyleven
Gossage
Mays
Tiant
John
Mullane
Kaat
Pierce
Walters
Bridges
Cicotte
Shocker
Warneke and
Ferrell"

Bert Blyleven...agreed 100%
Goose Gossage...although it's apples/oranges since Gossage was a relief pitcher, yes, I do say put him in the Hall.
Carl Mays...Put me with the people who say Carl Mays is the best submarine-baller who ever lived (we'll never be able to properly gauge Dizzy Dismukes). Many forget that Mays was one of a handfull of players who wanted to integrate pro baseball. Killing Ray Chapman is the only thing that, IMO, will never get him elected.
Luis Tiant...He gets in. His double career peak is a little odd, but better than Vic Willis' "double peak," and Tiant is a hard guy to forget.
Tommy John...I for one do support Tommy John in the Hall of Fame. However, a lot of guys have made the following remark about Herb Pennock, who is generally said to be undeserving: "He's his era's Tommy John! He doesn't belong!" Considering Tommy John pitched 26 years and got 288 wins, he may or may not go in. For the record, I do think Eppa Rixey was a better pitcher.
-Tony Mullane...I've always been torn about Tony Mullane. Probably because I don't have enough info about him to say put him in. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing him in there. Even with his racist behavior towards Fleet Walker, well, Ty Cobb's in the Hall of Fame and I can't think of a bigger racist!
-Jim Kaat...As a member of the five guys in NY State I know of belonging to the "Jim Kaat for the Hall of Fame Association," (couple baseball fans at a shooting range) can you guess where I stand on this one?
-Billy Pierce...Overlooked, and similar to Eppa Rixey. I'd say Pierce should probably be in there. He has some uncontestably spectacular seasons.
-Bucky Walters...Ah, the first guy I ever got from the 1941 Play Ball baseball card set (I'm now 8 cards away from a complete set) and the first guy I ever got appearing on a pre-war baseball card. He'll always have sort of a special place for that. That said, I don't think he belongs. His career peak is too short (1939-1944 or 1945), he doesn't have the win totals, and his later peak seasons come during the War, when a lot of first-rate guys are in the Armed Forces.
-Tommy Bridges...Another guy I got from that 6-card lot of 1941 Play Ball, lol. Again, he falls a little too short. Maybe if he'd gotten more decisions or pitched more innings from 1938-1943, I'd give it to him.
-Eddie Cicotte...Get him off the list.
-Lon Warneke...The Arkansas Hummingbird's career w/l percentage is pretty good, although his ERA's versus the league average are really streaky. He was also an outstanding umpire, but only for five years (read: he was no Augie Donatelli). It was pretty sad how he died after the ambulance driving to his home after a heart attack crashed and he probably could've been saved. He was a likable ballplayer, and an All-Star. But not a HoF'er.
-Wes Ferrell is certainly more deserving of the Hall than his brother, but I don't think he deserves the Hall regardless.

[B.White]

"
"
a HoF'er.
-Wes Ferrell is certainly more deserving of the Hall than his brother, but I don't think he deserves the Hall regardless.

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I cut and pasted this from an earlier thread that I remembered. I think pitchers from the 1930s get the short end of sabrmetrics.

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Connie Mack on Ferrell in 1929: "I wish I had him. He's the finest looking young pitcher I've seen in years. A terrific amount of stuff, good control, plenty of nerve and, I'd be willing to bet, a pretty good noodle. He acts and pitches like a fellow who's thinking about the job."

The Sporting News on Ferrell in 1930. "Down the years through the game's history great pitchers have bobbed up overnight, flashing a natural ability that made years of experience unnecessary. In these days of free hitting and mediocre pitching, such men are getting fewer and fewer and may be considered rare specimens indeed. However, Wesley Ferrell is one of those exceptions."

Connie Mack on Ferrell in 1930: "I have repeatedly said Ferrell is a great pitcher, one of greatest youngsters I have ever seen."

John McGraw when asked to name his 1930 Major League All-Star team: "I quite agree with Ruth and his committee. Grove and Ferrell have been standouts all season. Their records alone would decide that choice."

Noted baseball writer Joe Williams on Ferrell in 1931: "Everyone tabbed him right off as the best young pitching prospect since Christy Mathewson's time. They call him the second Matty."

Baseball writer John Kieran of the NY Times on Ferrell in 1931: "The late MIlleer Huggins only had to watch Ferrell twice before declaring him the best young hurler he has seen since Matty."

Grantland Rice on Ferrell in 1931: "Built along the lines of Matty and Walter Johnson, Ferrell in certain particulars is a reminder of both in their early years. Like Matty in his younger days, Ferrell has speed, a fine curve and first-class control."

Baseball Magazine on Ferrell in 1931: "The mantle of the lamented Christy Mathewson has fallen upon the shoulders of this stalwart North Carolina hurler. Where others acquire pitching finesse by years of toil and painful experience, Ferrell is a pitcher by divine right. He has everything, great speed, a sweeping curve, a tantilizing change of pace, air-tight control and the capstone of the pitching ace - cool self-confidence."

After Ferrell beat Dazzy Vance and the Dodgers in a 1932 spring game. Vance allowed no hits and fanned seven in four innings. Ferrell went the full nine, allowing 13 baserunners and not fanning a batter.

Dodger manager Max Carey: "Ferrell is another Christy Mathewson. That means he is one of the greatest pitchers I have ever seen, and if his arm does not go back on him he ought to develop into the best right-hander the American League has ever produced."

Dodger coach Casey Stengel: "Geez, that guy gets in my hair. He makes pitching look so darn easy."

Joe McCarthy on Ferrell in 1932: "Why this Ferrell is another Matty. I realized last year that he was a great pitcher, but not until Saturday, when he shut us out after the second inning, did I appreciate the mental side of his skill. That young man knows how to pitch."

Walter Johnson in 1934: "Ferrell was a great pitcher, and still is for that matter."

Joe Williams quoting Walter Johnson in 1934: "Ferrell is still a great pitcher. He'd make the Yankees a sure pennant winner, and he'd help any team that can pay him what he thinks he is worth."

Lefty Grove in 1944: "Wes Ferrell was one of the greatest pitchers I have ever seen, and one of the greatest competitors."

Noted writer Frank Graham after Ferrell beat the Yanks with a two-hitter on opening day. "Ferrell still pitches at Matty did - with no exaggerated motion, no fuss and no effort, but with plenty on the ball. It...was interesting for anyone who has an appreciation of the fine art of pitching. His smoothness, his control and the ease...compelled your admiration."

Mickey Cochrane on Ferrell in 1937 after he had burnt out by numbskull manager Joe Cronin. "From a press-box seat Ferrell had a 'nothing' ball. At the plate hitting it, it was just about that. What he had was suberb control, an endless file cabinet in his mind of the likes and dislike of every batter he ever faced, and not to be underestimated, confidence that he could still win."

[Dalkowski110]

Wes Ferrell probably got a lot of the attention directed toward him because his brother is in the Hall. That's just my opinion, but it's out there. The quotes are a double-edged sword. Branch Rickey once said the finest pitcher he ever saw was Ron Necciai. I can see that, but Necciai blew out his arm in the Army and his ML stats sure don't reflect Rickey's comment. Rickey never retracted it either. That's just one example of quotes going anywhere. Sure, he has good single seasons, and a fine peak, but his career is too short. Should we be putting Wes in the Hall along with Earl Whitehill, another guy consistently under league average in ERA (including one spectacular 22-8 season in 1933)? Whitehill was another fine hitter as well, although he only played one game in the outfield during his entire career, and is derailed by an arm injury. Whitehill does have more victories. Ferrell has a better ERA vs the league average, though (although they're not terribly far apart). But looking at both of their careers, neither belongs in the Hall of Fame.

[STLCards2]

Just for the record, I am not in favor of all of those pitchers I mentioned making Cooperstown...just before Rixey. I will agree that factoring in Cicotte's gambling, that Rixey should make it before Eddie.

[Old Mike]

Baseball Primer's WARP system rates Ferrell's 1929-1936 seasons as having more cumulative value than Lefty's Grove's 1929-1936 seasons. Ferrell was clearly the best pitcher in the AL in both 1930 and 1935. In 1930 Ferrell outdrew Grove in both existing MVP ballots -likely based on the well-known nformation that Mack would not pitch Grove against NY in 1930. The 1930's was a difficult time to evaluate pitchers, especially American League pitchers, due to two facts; 1) the amount of doubleheaders being played due to the Depression caused odd pitcher usage patterns (Cronin started Ferrell on consecutive days once over 1935 and 1936 and 11 times on two days rest, while Grove started just once on two days rest in that same period), and 2) the huge difference in the Al's juiced ball versus the NL's deader ball (just check out the walk totals).

Ferrell's "peak" was shorter the Grove's, the same as Hubbell's and longer than Dean's. From 1929 to 1936 Ferrell was considered among the elite superstars of the game.

How can one write off the quotes of people like Mack, Stengel, Carey, Al Simmons (who said Ferrell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced), Walter Johnson, Miller Huggins and Joe McCarthy. They were actually there while we just look at some numbers in a book.

[Dalkowski110]

Easy...the guy didn't play long enough. He flamed out. He fell apart. He did not and could not last. To me, there is a dividing line with only very special cases such as Addie Joss and maybe Sandy Koufax being excepted that a starter must win 200 games. And even then, he may not be deserving. Just look at Jim Perry, Bobo Newsome, or Joe Niekro. On the other hand, if you want a really underappreciated guy in the Hall, put in Jack Powell.

[Dodgerfan1]

...and just who ARE the five worst pitchers in the HOF, if Rixey isn't one of them? Not including relievers, how about:

Don Sutton
Early Wynn
Jesse Haines
Rube Marquard
Dazzy Vance

I almost included Vic Willis, but he has excellent numbers.

[Dalkowski110]

"Early Wynn"

One sentence...He won lots of games with the Senators. I think that sums it up.

[Dodgerfan1]

Early Wynn was 72-87 while playing for the Senators. In the 5 years he pitched 'full time' for Washington, he was 61-79. That's losing a lot more games than winning. Look, I'm not saying he wasn't an excellent pitcher. There's no doubt that he was. I'm not even saying he doesn't belong in the Hall, although there are those, myself included, who are doubtful (he's in the Hall by virtue of his 300 wins ALONE, which is a truly great milestone, but Sutton also had 300 wins, and he DOESN'T belong in the HOF, IMO. Both were very good pitchers, but as so many people point out nowadays, the Hall of Fame was created as a shrine to baseball immortals - it's not called the Hall of Very Good). I'm just saying that Early Wynn is one of the 5 LEAST deserving pitchers in the Hall.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Dalkowski110]

"That's losing a lot more games than winning."

That's my point. How could Wynn possibly succeed with the dreadful Senators, even in their two wartime years of "competition?"

"he's in the Hall by virtue of his 300 wins ALONE"

There was the 1959 Cy Young Award, the post-season play, and the numerous All-Star teams...then there are his Hall of Fame tests. Although he's a point out on the Black Ink Test, his 264 vs. 185 average on the Gray Ink Test is right there, he fails the HoF Standards Test (a test that has difficulty with pitchers with longtime losing seasons anyway), but is above average by 32 points in the Hall of Fame Monitor Test.

As for Don Sutton, sorry, but anyone who sticks around long enough to get 300 belongs in. Remember that he also lost 256 games. Roger Craig had it pretty much right when he said "It takes a good pitcher to lose a lot of games." Sutton was kept in there with subpar teams (1967-1969 Dodgers, 1979 Dodgers, does well with the '82 Astros, then goes back to below-average form with the below-average '84 Brewers, and by 1986-1988, he's worn out). He finished in the top 5 Cy Young Award balloting five times, was a four-time All-Star, had a career ERA below league average, and even has a career fielding percentage quite higher than league average. Sutton fails the Black Ink Test, but passes the Gray Ink Test (240 to 185), is above Hall of Fame Standards (by six points), and passes the Hall of Fame Monitor by 49 points.

And that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.