is this good enough [Archive]

bugboy900

09-11-2006, 01:28 PM

i dont know what to do
i am 5'10"
125 pounds
16 yrs old

my speeds are

4 seam: 57-64
2 seam: 53-61
curve: 47-53
knuckle ball: 36-45
circle-change: 50-54

this is exact by a radar gun

is this good enough for high school. my school team only throws 70's for varsity

bbjunkie

09-11-2006, 01:47 PM

My son is league age 12 and throws as fast as you. He was a good pitcher at the LL level because of control, not blazing speed. But, you need to increase speed. I suggest a program of practice that includes some long throwing to increase arm strength, and probably some weight work. Get Nolan Ryan's book. He lays out very detailed routines for pitching specific exercise. Good luck.

Jake Patterson

09-11-2006, 02:35 PM

EdmondsFan#1

09-11-2006, 04:40 PM

Your speeds are fine, you are actually honest is why kids that say they throw 80 are just full of it.

Take a longer stride, that increases velocity big time. Worked for me at least. Your stride should be 90% of your height some say but i don't think it should be that big because i tend to get alot of injuries when i do. But 70% is good.

Your hips should open before your shoulders, your hips should be whipping your upper body around to throw the ball.

Also, No offense bbjunkie, But how is arm strength supposed to make your throw harder? Speed does not come from your arms, it comes from your lower body which whips your upper body through, so your torso and legs is what provides velocity. Your arm is merely a whip, if you are gripping the ball hard enough you want to chuck it at your target which arm strength you should be a lot looser. If speed comes from your arms explain to me how irvin santana throws 94 ish, Cassy Fossum throws 94ish, Roy Oswalt throws 96, etc. when they are tiny compared to the rest of the athletes? Also, Nolan Ryan threw over 100's on daily basis 15 years before he ever picked up a dumbell. Just because it worked for him doesn't mean it will work for anyone else, just because he is nolan ryan does not mean he is right. And, i didn't make up this information myself, i got this information by a pitching specialist and sports scientist.

Hawaii

09-11-2006, 04:51 PM

Dear bugboy:

I echo the other replies. The speeds you posted are too slow for where I am, even if you have good control.

However, I guess you are wondering about your chances with your own school team. You said 70's is what your varsity is throwing, and you were at a max of 64 on your 4-seam. The first question is what do you mean by 70's? There is a big difference between 71 and 79 (the difference is about a whole year of hard work).

If you are at 64 and your varsity competition is at 70-71, then with some hard and smart work you might be able to catch up by next season. Conversely, if you are at 64 and they are at 79, and you have only until next March to catch up, that is a huge (15 mph) difference, and catching up seems unrealistic to me. I have not seen anyone improve that much in 5-6 months. If this is the situation you are in, then frankly, you might consider working on your hitting and fielding instead. Sorry if I'm being too negative, I'm just trying to "tell it like it is." I'm not factoring in important things like what is your passion, and what is your dream--I'm just looking at how can you best spend your time to have the best chance of making the team in any capacity. if you are 15 mph slower than the other pitchers trying out, and assuming they have decent control, I do not believe you can catch up to them in the next 5-6 months.

ON THE OTHER HAND, some coaches (not many) WANT a guy who can throw "slow" with great control. It can be really frustrating for a hitter to have seen a guy throwing gas the first 2-3 at-bats, and then a new pitcher comes in and throws 10-15 mph slower. So, before you stop pitching because you are not fast enough, it would be worth a visit with the coach to see what he is looking for, or what his particular needs are.

POHusKy9

09-11-2006, 06:39 PM

Your speeds are fine, you are actually honest is why kids that say they throw 80 are just full of it.
you kidding? im 15, a sophomore, and kids were throwing 80+ at freshmen level for almost every team we faced. my friend constantly throws from 79-83
EVERY one of our varsity pitchers throws 80+, some tip 90's on a good day
just don't know why you would make that ignorant of a statement..

now back to your question
going from a pitcher that throws 70+ down to high 50's could screw with the other team's timing very badly.
i suggest you start weight training, drinking protein shakes, and eating a lot more
5'10" 125lbs is very skinny, im 5'7" 155. i put on 20 lbs since last year when i started with a trainer

CanadianKid

09-11-2006, 08:00 PM

EdmondsFan#1

09-11-2006, 08:02 PM

you kidding? im 15, a sophomore, and kids were throwing 80+ at freshmen level for almost every team we faced. my friend constantly throws from 79-83
EVERY one of our varsity pitchers throws 80+, some tip 90's on a good day
just don't know why you would make that ignorant of a statement..

now back to your question
going from a pitcher that throws 70+ down to high 50's could screw with the other team's timing very badly.
i suggest you start weight training, drinking protein shakes, and eating a lot more
5'10" 125lbs is very skinny, im 5'7" 155. i put on 20 lbs since last year when i started with a trainer

Have they been clocked at 80?

Maybe around your city they do, but over here no. And, sorry, but it wasn't that ignorant of a comment. I'm voicing my opinion, and my opinion is that alot of high schoolers are full of ****. 70% of them say they throw faster than they do, and what you say is not going to change my opinion I don't care how ignorant that sounds.

Also, again with the "get bigger and stronger" **** like it's going to help you pitch faster. That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard about pitching, seriously, sadly a 13 year olds opinions are nothing but **** to older teens and adults but it's still a ridiculous theory. In high school teenagers seem to believe that because you get bigger throughout the years of high school that's why you throw harder. But it isn't, it's because your body is growing alot and maturing alot at that age so you're just turning more adult. It has nothing to do with how big you are, it's a natural thing for an adult to throw harder then a kid because their bodies are more mature. There was a kid, that was 5'9'' and 135 lbs as a sophmore, his dad was dissapointed that he could only throw 70 mph. The kid always practiced and always worked on mechanics and that made his dad even more upset that he couldn't throw harder. The problem was, the kid was just a late bloomer each year he always practiced and was determined, he was gaining about 7 mph each year but he never got a whole lot bigger just his body devoloped more and the practice, by his senior year he was throwing about 94 mph. And he was drafted by the Atlanta Braves (i think) in the 1st round draft (6th overall pick) I don't know his name though. And i believe the year he got drafted was 1999.

So basically, the kid was never big and strong but he still threw in the 90's at maybe 170 lbs, 6'0, how is this? Practice and maturing. Not getting bigger, he never lifted weights and never used conditioning. But since you didn't even read the last paragraph because you probably think it's too long, nevermind. I wasn't thinking of argueing in the first place because no matter how many times pitching specialists such as dick mills and others prove this has nothing to do with weight lifting and getting bigger and stronger nobody still listens.

I could go into detail why lifting weights to get bigger doesn't help speed too but i don't want to ramble.

Btw, I'm 13 years old and i'm only 5'5'' 107 lbs, yet i throw close to 70 mph... Most 13 year olds throw around 60 maybe, so explain to me how i can do this. It's because i practice alot, and practice my mechanics alot, and everything else. I never lift weights. And i know 70 mph isn't that impressive but for someone who thinks lifting weights makes you throw harder a 107 lb kid throwing 70 should be slightly impressive.

jbooth

09-11-2006, 08:34 PM

70% of them say they throw faster than they do, and what you say is not going to change my opinion I don't care how ignorant that sounds.

You're right, pitcher's speeds often get exaggerated. However, I do have a very expensive radar gun, and I check a lot of pitchers at a lot of games, at a lot of different ages. The top Varsity high school pitchers (not necessarily pro prospects, just the top on their team), throw in the 80's the second and third pitchers on a team are usually high 70's. Mid to low 60's at the varsity level is VERY slow.

Btw, I'm 13 years old and i'm only 5'5'' 107 lbs, yet i throw close to 70 mph... Most 13 year olds throw around 60 maybe, so explain to me how i can do this. It's because i practice alot, and practice my mechanics alot, and everything else. I never lift weights. And i know 70 mph isn't that impressive but for someone who thinks lifting weights makes you throw harder a 107 lb kid throwing 70 should be slightly impressive.

Most 13's that actually are regular pitchers for their team, throw upper 60's to mid 70's. You must live in an area that doesn't have much in the way of pitching talent. Around here, most 13 to 15 year-olds throw 65 to 75 with a few around 78 to 82 and some really good ones, around 86.

Our 11 year-old all-star team had 3 pitchers who throw 62 to 65. Our 12's had 6 guys that throw above 63, two that throw 66 to 68 and one very wild 11 year-old who throws 70 on occaision, 66 consistently.

And contrary to what Dick Mills believes; the arm has a LOT more to do with speed than he thinks, but the rythm and timing of all the body parts is the most important thing, and you do have to get the legs and torso involved. You can't just throw with your arm, and just increasing arm strength, won't make a dramatic increase in your speed, but increasing arm strength WILL add SOME speed. It's stupid to say you don't need to work on arm strength.

EdmondsFan#1

09-11-2006, 08:45 PM

You're right, pitcher's speeds often get exaggerated. However, I do have a very expensive radar gun, and I check a lot of pitchers at a lot of games, at a lot of different ages. The top Varsity high school pitchers (not necessarily pro prospects, just the top on their team), throw in the 80's the second and third pitchers on a team are usually high 70's. Mid to low 60's at the varsity level is VERY slow.

Most 13's that actually are regular pitchers for their team, throw upper 60's to mid 70's. You must live in an area that doesn't have much in the way of pitching talent. Around here, most 13 to 15 year-olds throw 65 to 75 with a few around 78 to 82 and some really good ones, around 86.

Our 11 year-old all-star team had 3 pitchers who throw 62 to 65. Our 12's had 6 guys that throw above 63, two that throw 66 to 68 and one very wild 11 year-old who throws 70 on occaision, 66 consistently.

And contrary to what Dick Mills believes; the arm has a LOT more to do with speed than he thinks, but the rythm and timing of all the body parts is the most important thing, and you do have to get the legs and torso involved. You can't just throw with your arm, and just increasing arm strength, won't make a dramatic increase in your speed, but increasing arm strength WILL add SOME speed. It's stupid to say you don't need to work on arm strength.

Where do you get the arm information? Any pitching specialist in particular?

Dick Mills reasons say lifting weights to improve arm strength would not work because arm has very little to do with pitching because the main part of pitching is the lower body which pretty much pieces it together. Lifting weights would also make your explosive motion from your back foot to your front foot slower because the motions in lifting weights are slow which would teach your arms to be slower and you would be building more mass so you have more weight to move quicker from back foot to lead foot.

And, actually, i think we do have some pitching talent. I never really gunned myself but i just figure that's what i throw around, because at 12 i was clocked at 50 when i was never a pitcher and didn't care and hardly even knew what a 4 seamer was and 0 mechanics about pitching. It was also my first year of organized baseball... my knowledge has improved Alot.

The reason i think our city does have pitching talent is because we have a kid on our junior high school team that throws about 80 mph and he is 13. But he already has a 5' oclock shadow beard for some reason. Also last year 4 pitchers were drafted to the minors from 2 of our public colleges that i know of... Not sure about the others.

FiveFrameSwing

09-11-2006, 10:12 PM

bbjunkie

09-12-2006, 05:17 AM

Would any of the drills in Ryan's book be suitable for a softball windmill pitcher?
Sorry, I can't answer that. My daughter's SB coach wants her to start pitching, so I'm just beginning to learn what a SB pitch is supposed to look like. I'm way too early in the learning curve to give a decent answer.

POHusKy9

09-12-2006, 07:39 AM

Have they been clocked at 80?

Maybe around your city they do, but over here no. And, sorry, but it wasn't that ignorant of a comment. I'm voicing my opinion, and my opinion is that alot of high schoolers are full of ****. 70% of them say they throw faster than they do, and what you say is not going to change my opinion I don't care how ignorant that sounds.

Also, again with the "get bigger and stronger" **** like it's going to help you pitch faster. That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard about pitching, seriously, sadly a 13 year olds opinions are nothing but **** to older teens and adults but it's still a ridiculous theory. In high school teenagers seem to believe that because you get bigger throughout the years of high school that's why you throw harder. But it isn't, it's because your body is growing alot and maturing alot at that age so you're just turning more adult. It has nothing to do with how big you are, it's a natural thing for an adult to throw harder then a kid because their bodies are more mature. There was a kid, that was 5'9'' and 135 lbs as a sophmore, his dad was dissapointed that he could only throw 70 mph. The kid always practiced and always worked on mechanics and that made his dad even more upset that he couldn't throw harder. The problem was, the kid was just a late bloomer each year he always practiced and was determined, he was gaining about 7 mph each year but he never got a whole lot bigger just his body devoloped more and the practice, by his senior year he was throwing about 94 mph. And he was drafted by the Atlanta Braves (i think) in the 1st round draft (6th overall pick) I don't know his name though. And i believe the year he got drafted was 1999.

So basically, the kid was never big and strong but he still threw in the 90's at maybe 170 lbs, 6'0, how is this? Practice and maturing. Not getting bigger, he never lifted weights and never used conditioning. But since you didn't even read the last paragraph because you probably think it's too long, nevermind. I wasn't thinking of argueing in the first place because no matter how many times pitching specialists such as dick mills and others prove this has nothing to do with weight lifting and getting bigger and stronger nobody still listens.

I could go into detail why lifting weights to get bigger doesn't help speed too but i don't want to ramble.

Btw, I'm 13 years old and i'm only 5'5'' 107 lbs, yet i throw close to 70 mph... Most 13 year olds throw around 60 maybe, so explain to me how i can do this. It's because i practice alot, and practice my mechanics alot, and everything else. I never lift weights. And i know 70 mph isn't that impressive but for someone who thinks lifting weights makes you throw harder a 107 lb kid throwing 70 should be slightly impressive.
i wasn't saying to get bigger to throw harder, i was just saying that in general
and i might have sounded a bit like an a-hole last night, i just had woken up from a car ride

1 has been clocked at 80-82 and 2 sophomores at 83-86

and i did read that paragraph, ive got nothing better to do around my house

Chris O'Leary

09-12-2006, 07:39 AM

You can't just throw with your arm, and just increasing arm strength, won't make a dramatic increase in your speed, but increasing arm strength WILL add SOME speed. It's stupid to say you don't need to work on arm strength.

I think conditioning the arm is more important than just strengthening it. There's no question that a properly-conditioned arm, and here I've talking about the muscles of the rotator cuff, will be a lot more durable.

The problem with saying that pitchers need strong arms is that that more often than not leads guys to work their biceps, which are largely irrelevant to pitching.

GFK

09-12-2006, 08:21 AM

Where do you get the arm information? Any pitching specialist in particular? ...

EdmondsFan#1, jbooth and the others that are telling you arm strength is important are giving you good information.

How about you try a little experiment for yourself. Sit on a bucket, or chair, or just sit on the ground. Throw the ball as hard as you can and have someone radar the throw. Now throw to the same radar gun from flat ground or a mound. My bet is you will find the first velocity to be no less than 50% of what your full "off the mound" velocity is. That should be a good indicator to you of how much arm strength comes into play.

bbjunkie

09-12-2006, 08:57 AM

Anecdotally, my son has been chopping a lot of wood lately. He feels like he has gotten stronger and that his pitching has picked a little speed. Since I catch for him a lot in practice, I tend to agree.

chan7718

09-12-2006, 05:00 PM

Sorry, I can't answer that. My daughter's SB coach wants her to start pitching, so I'm just beginning to learn what a SB pitch is supposed to look like. I'm way too early in the learning curve to give a decent answer.

bbjunkie,

If you haven't ran across these yet:

Ernie Parker one of the best in the business of FB pitching:

http://www.ernieparkervideos.com/

EdmondsFan#1

09-12-2006, 08:35 PM

i wasn't saying to get bigger to throw harder, i was just saying that in general
and i might have sounded a bit like an a-hole last night, i just had woken up from a car ride

1 has been clocked at 80-82 and 2 sophomores at 83-86

and i did read that paragraph, ive got nothing better to do around my house

no you are not the a--hole i'm the one that sounded like the a--hole and i always am...

bbjunkie

09-12-2006, 08:37 PM

bbjunkie,

If you haven't ran across these yet:

Ernie Parker one of the best in the business of FB pitching:

http://www.ernieparkervideos.com/
Thanks, looks like a good resource.

couldagonepro

09-12-2006, 09:44 PM

BUGBOY900

I took my stepson to a baseball "center" where they do weight training with and indoor mound, radar gun and target inside a net cage. My stepson who is 14 5'9" 135lbs has 1 pitch, a slow 63mph fastball. He has really good control and can basically put it where he wants. The owner of the facility put the gun on him and asked him to throw as hard as he could which was the previously mentioned 63mph. He showed me how his leg and torso were basically stationary and that all the speed was coming from his arm. Twenty minutes later and a completely different delivery where his lower body and his right leg was giving more effort he hit 71mph. No control however. That'll take more time.
Crack it like a wip the coach say's.

Size and strength don't matter, delivery and conditioning however do.

Take a look a Tim Lincecum 6'0" (stretch) and 165lbs and he has hit 100mph countless times and has a wicked breaking ball. Pac 10 pitcher twice, golden spikes award in college, and went in the first round tenth pick to San Francisco this past June.
Now for the gentlemen who says highschoolers are full of s_ _ _ t. Some are and we all know how kids embelish. There are four other 15-17 year olds at the center and using a "stalker" brand radar gun I've seen 86mph from a 16 year old and 88mph from a 17 year old who has been pitching for his second full season.

Bug Boy 900 don't EVER let anyone tell you that you're not big enough. If you don't grow another inch or gain one pound you cannot ever quit. ONLY YOU WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU CAN'T. LISTEN TO NO NEGATIVE FEEDBACK. After your finished being as bullheaded as humanly possible, start a thread and let us know what round your going to be drafted.

Hawaii

09-13-2006, 02:07 PM

The prior reference to Linceum brought to mind a basic paradox for pitchers. Speeding up your delivery can help, but is not an automatic improvement. As with most things, if you overdo it, problems are created. By speeding up your delivery (a la Linceum who looks like he is in fast forward when he pitches), you can increase speed, but your timing needs to be perfect, because any problem with release point etc gets magnified and control suffers. "Fast delivery" pitchers can have more "bad games," because if they are slightly off, they can go really off. On the other hand, if your delivery is too slow, it can also create problems with balance, posture, momentum and consistency, especially if your core strength is not where it needs to be. A lot of good pitchers seem to have a good compromise right in the middle, not too slow, not too fast.

CanadianKid

09-13-2006, 02:56 PM

When people mention weight lifting it's not only to get bigger and stronger but also prevent injuries from occuring. Now that doesn't mean go out and bench 300lbs it means do some weights to strengthen your muscles so that they aren't weak and vulnerable to injuries.

EdmondsFan#1

09-13-2006, 03:39 PM

EdmondsFan#1, jbooth and the others that are telling you arm strength is important are giving you good information.

How about you try a little experiment for yourself. Sit on a bucket, or chair, or just sit on the ground. Throw the ball as hard as you can and have someone radar the throw. Now throw to the same radar gun from flat ground or a mound. My bet is you will find the first velocity to be no less than 50% of what your full "off the mound" velocity is. That should be a good indicator to you of how much arm strength comes into play.

you are on of the few that seems really stubborn...

What comes from your arm is not how big your biceps/triceps are an how strong they are, it's mainly to do with the tendons and ligaments in your shoulder. That is what provides the speed the arm gives you, which is very very important in pitching. But those you can not work out. It's not how strong they are it's how loose they are or how tight they are, and that is something you are born with. You can't have tight ligaments in your shoulders and make them loose. When you pitch, you arm is providing speed by the arm speed. Arm speed comes from the lower body torque then you should rotate your upper body so your legs can help it move faster. Then, the ligaments and tendons in your shoulders and flexibility which has to do with it, is what makes your arm speed move faster too. Pitching Speed comes from, good mechanics, and transfering your weight from your back foot to your front foot in a explosive motion. Flexibility naturally makes you throw the ball harder but when you also devolop good mechanics it helps the motion be more explosive. That is what speed comes from. Flexibility helps your motion be more explosive because of the more elastic energy. There is nothing you can say to make me disagree. To improve elastic energy you should stretch everyday.

But, conditioning the arm is important, i agree.