dave bancroft

[oscargamblesfro]

Here's a guy you don't hear very much about, a shortstop with the Phillies, Giants, Braves etc who did some managing too. Doesn't seem like he's all that great of a hitter in most years, even for a shortstop. I've read that he was a great fielder, but he seems to be one of the worst selections of his position and the era ( mid teens to very early 30's). I guess the only weaker shortstops in the Hall might be Rizzuto, T. Jackson, and guys like that. Can anyone make a reasonable argument for his selection? I can't really get an idea of what this guy was like, who comparable players are, or if there's something I'm missing here- he really seems like one of those vague and not terribly interesting HOF'ers if you know what I mean...

[candy curveball cummings]

Here's a guy you don't hear very much about, a shortstop with the Phillies, Giants, Braves etc who did some managing too. Doesn't seem like he's all that great of a hitter in most years, even for a shortstop. I've read that he was a great fielder, but he seems to be one of the worst selections of his position and the era ( mid teens to very early 30's). I guess the only weaker shortstops in the Hall might be Rizzuto, T. Jackson, and guys like that. Can anyone make a reasonable argument for his selection? I can't really get an idea of what this guy was like, who comparable players are, or if there's something I'm missing here- he really seems like one of those vague and not terribly interesting HOF'ers if you know what I mean...


In my mind, the only reason why he or Rizzuto were elected was because of cronies on the Veteran's Committee. I can see somewhat of a case for Travis Jackson, but it's quite weak. In my mind, Rizzuto is the worst selection in HoF history, and Bancroft is right there with him.

[JimAbbott]

Bancroft? Now there's a household name for you. Rizzuto? There's a joke selection if I ever heard one. The crying that went on in the media before the vet committee put him in was pitiful

[candy curveball cummings]

Bancroft? Now there's a household name for you. Rizzuto? There's a joke selection if I ever heard one. The crying that went on in the media before the vet committee put him in was pitiful

For once, I think we might agree.

[Fuzzy Bear]

In another thread, there was a discussion as to who the worst shortstop ever was in the HOF. Bancroft's name came up, of course. Many say he's the worst SS in the Hall because he's part of the Frankie Frisch list of selections, but is that fair?

Rizzuto's numbers are not as good as Bancroft's, but Bancroft played in an era with higher averages, plus, Rizzuto was a RH hitter in Yankee Stadium who lost three prime years to WWII. He deserves some credit for that. Rizzuto won an MVP in 1950, and, arguably, deserved it; Bancroft never had such a season. Bancroft's career was longer, and WWII or not, Bancroft deserves credit for that.

The issue with Bancroft (and Rizzuto, for that matter) is: Why are they in the HOF, and most comparable shortstops out? Why Bancroft and Rizzuto, but not Art Fletcher or Dick Bartell? Why Bancroft and Rizzuto, but not Johnny Logan, Billy Rogell, Marty Marion, Roy McMillian, Vern Stephens, or Dick Groat? I won't even mention Trammell or Glasscock.

Bancroft may not be the worst SS in the HOF, but it's OK to say he was.

[oscargamblesfro]

I suppose aside from the cronyism, a simple but true part of why the Bancrofts and Hafeys et al are in are not only the fact that they were put in by friends/ teammates during the Frisch years, but that they were part of dynasties, it seems clear that as a generalization, if you played for a powerful club like the Giants, Cards, Yankees etc in that period, you have a better shot than a more or less equal player from a worse team.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I suppose aside from the cronyism, a simple but true part of why the Bancrofts and Hafeys et al are in are not only the fact that they were put in by friends/ teammates during the Frisch years, but that they were part of dynasties, it seems clear that as a generalization, if you played for a powerful club like the Giants, Cards, Yankees etc in that period, you have a better shot than a more or less equal player from a worse team.

Thanks to Frisch, the Giants and Cardinals have more HOFers from that period than the Yankees. At least it seems that way.

[oscargamblesfro]

Thanks to Frisch, the Giants and Cardinals have more HOFers from that period than the Yankees. At least it seems that way.


Yeah, It wasn't right. I have no problem with getting in by helping a great team be a great team- I think individual players should get some credit for the success as a whole-and even the worst of the Frisch choices did do that- I mean none of them were terrible players, all were at least good, solid players: but some of these guys weren't all that much better than pretty good...On the other hand, when you have a fine team it gets easy to say that everyone was great and pile 'em into the Hall.

[oscargamblesfro]

The impression I get from Bancroft is that he was a fiery guy, sort of like a better version of, say, Larry Bowa. Is that accurate?

[candy curveball cummings]

In another thread, there was a discussion as to who the worst shortstop ever was in the HOF. Bancroft's name came up, of course. Many say he's the worst SS in the Hall because he's part of the Frankie Frisch list of selections, but is that fair?

Rizzuto's numbers are not as good as Bancroft's, but Bancroft played in an era with higher averages, plus, Rizzuto was a RH hitter in Yankee Stadium who lost three prime years to WWII. He deserves some credit for that. Rizzuto won an MVP in 1950, and, arguably, deserved it; Bancroft never had such a season. Bancroft's career was longer, and WWII or not, Bancroft deserves credit for that.

The issue with Bancroft (and Rizzuto, for that matter) is: Why are they in the HOF, and most comparable shortstops out? Why Bancroft and Rizzuto, but not Art Fletcher or Dick Bartell? Why Bancroft and Rizzuto, but not Johnny Logan, Billy Rogell, Marty Marion, Roy McMillian, Vern Stephens, or Dick Groat? I won't even mention Trammell or Glasscock.

Bancroft may not be the worst SS in the HOF, but it's OK to say he was.

Rizzuto has a career OPS+ of 93, Bancroft's is 98. Neither is impressive, but Bancroft was better verses his contemporaries than Rizzuto was. Rizzuto did not deserve his 1950 MVP. He was probably the third best player on his team, behind Dimaggio and Berra.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Rizzuto has a career OPS+ of 93, Bancroft's is 98. Neither is impressive, but Bancroft was better verses his contemporaries than Rizzuto was. Rizzuto did not deserve his 1950 MVP. He was probably the third best player on his team, behind Dimaggio and Berra.

I can't agree with you on the 1950 MVP award. Rizzuto wasn't the only viable candidate, but he deserved the award. Rizzuto had a higher OBP than DiMaggio and Berra, and scored more runs than DiMaggio or Berra. Additionally, Rizzuto played the key infield defensive position, so he gets a defensive bonus over the other candidates.

I would also give Rizzuto some slack for the war. He missed three full seasons to the draft. That's a lot, and they were prime seasons. His career totals would all be more impressive if he had those years back.

I grant you that Rizzuto is a poor selection to the HOF. He was a good player, a star, but not a great player.

[538280]

I can't agree with you on the 1950 MVP award. Rizzuto wasn't the only viable candidate, but he deserved the award. Rizzuto had a higher OBP than DiMaggio and Berra, and scored more runs than DiMaggio or Berra. Additionally, Rizzuto played the key infield defensive position, so he gets a defensive bonus over the other candidates.

I agree. Rizzuto had a lot of offensive value that season outside what OPS+ would indicate. He was known as one of the best baserunners in the game, grouded into VERY few double plays, had a truly awesome OBP. He was a great leadoff man that season, and of course he was also one of the best defensive shortstops of all time. I would say he deserved the award that season.

[KCGHOST]

Like most folks I agree that Rizzuto's MVP, if not right, is at least defensible. His HoF selection is not.

[josh24]

Coul you tell me some reasons why Dave Bancroft is in the HOF?

[Buzzaldrin]

He played with Frankie Frisch.

Jesse Haines, Rube Marquard, Chick Hafey, Dave Bancroft, Ross Youngs, George Kelly, Jim Bottomley, and Freddie Lindstrom.

How many of these men truly deserve to be in the Hall? Frisch corrupted the concept of the hall of fame by getting in a bunch of his old teammates in the early 70s.

Bottomley actually might deserve it, and if Youngs had had a few more good seasons, or even one really outstanding one maybe him too, but the rest of these men don't belong in the hall.

[jalbright]

threads merged

[Second Base Coach]

Dave Bancroft is not the worst shortstop in the Hall of Fame, yet I don't think he had enough really good seasons to be a HOFer. As stated before, cronyism served him well and he slid in safely.

He drew some walks, scored some runs, helped win two World Series, but did not play well in the four he participated in, had more hits than games, and his OPS is at the league average while is RF is above the league average.

Not terrible, but he's more good than great.

[CTaka]

Another contender for the title of "worst SS in the HOF" would be Joe Tinker. Yes, Tinker was a stud with the glove (BJ's fielding grade is A+), as was Rizzuto (A+) and Bancroft was very good (A).

At first glance, Tinker would seem "safe" with a career OPS+ of 95 compared to Scooter's 93 and Bancroft's "steller" 98. But here's where I start to wonder about Tinker. If we can assume that all three are not considered "power hitters", Bancroft has a career OBP that is 4.7% above league average. Even Scooter managed an OBP that was 1.4% above league average (always a good sign for one of the game's immortals to be slightly above average!). Tinker's OBP was 6.7% BELOW league average.

Sure, that means Tinker's power was better relative to the rest of the league than either Rizzuto or Bancroft, but I don't see Tinker's power as being such a strong asset to make him a hall of famer (somehow I don't put him in the same power group as ARod, Banks or Honus). Perhaps I'm wrong, but Tinker's poor OBP seems to offset his great fielding and makes him a good candidate for "worst HOF SS" along with Bancroft and Scooter.

[yest]

Bancroft made it mostly because of his defensive play for example he holds the record for most chances accepted (984) in a season in 1922 (his team finished 2 Ks under the league avg.) though he was in what was regarded as a gold glove infield.