The Keltner List! [Archive]

SamtheBravesFan

08-31-2006, 10:17 PM

Just for fun, do the Keltner Test for your favorite bubble or surefire candidate for the Hall of Fame!

Dale Murphy

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

I would have to say yes. Someone most have said it. Pete Rose said in 1985 (in a book about his race for Cobb's hit record) that he believed that Murphy was the best player in the National League. That's good enough for me. :)

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Several years. From 1982-87 at the very least. The year 1988 is debatable; he did lead the team in doubles and homers, but he didn't hit much beyond that.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

I believe that he was the best center fielder in baseball from 1982-86.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

1982 NL West, that's all, unfortunately.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

He went from his prime into decline with a thud from 1987 to 1988, but he was still able to play regularly from 1988 to 1991.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Hahahaha, do I have to answer that?

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

1. Joe Carter (901)
2. Duke Snider (880) *
3. Don Baylor (875)
4. Ron Santo (875)
5. Gil Hodges (873)
6. Ruben Sierra (866)
7. George Foster (865)
8. Jack Clark (862)
9. Luis Gonzalez (861)
10. Ellis Burks (859)

Just one.

8. Do the numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Murphy meets 34.3% of HOF standards, which isn't too bad, but it's not great.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that hte player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really, the stats tell his story.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

If someone knows a better center fielder, tell me, because I don't know one.

11. How many MVP-type season did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Dale won the MVP in 1982 and 1983, he had good enough seasons in 1984, 1985 and 1987 as well (he had a slightly better season than Andre Dawson in '87), compared to the MVP champion of those seasons.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many games get in?

He played in seven All-Star games, all of those seasons were All-Star caliber. I believe many people have played in seven ASGs but aren't in the Hall.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

He couldn't do it alone. Usually, he had to. So I would say no.

14. What impact did the palyer have on baseball history? We he responsible for any rule changes? did he introduce any new equipment? did he change the game in any way?

Hahahahha no

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Boy, did he ever. One of the main reasons he became so popular in Atlanta was his sportsmanship and high character.

:gt

RuthMayBond

09-01-2006, 06:49 AM

Just for fun, do the Keltner Test for your favorite bubble or surefire candidate for the Hall of Fame!

Dale Murphy

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

I would have to say yes. Someone most have said it. Pete Rose said in 1985 (in a book about his race for Cobb's hit record) that he believed that Murphy was the best player in the National League. That's good enough for me. :)The MVP voters said it. Twice.

<2. Was he the best player on his team?

Several years. From 1982-87 at the very least. The year 1988 is debatable; he did lead the team in doubles and homers, but he didn't hit much beyond that.>

Arguably in 1980 also

<3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

I believe that he was the best center fielder in baseball from 1982-86.>

I'll have to look and see why not in '87

<4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

1982 NL West, that's all, unfortunately.>

And this is a bogus question if you're on bad teams

<6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Hahahaha, do I have to answer that?>

That should be reworded to "can a reasonable argument be made that he is the best player not in the Hall?"

<7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

1. Joe Carter (901)
2. Duke Snider (880) *
3. Don Baylor (875)
4. Ron Santo (875)
5. Gil Hodges (873)
6. Ruben Sierra (866)
7. George Foster (865)
8. Jack Clark (862)
9. Luis Gonzalez (861)
10. Ellis Burks (859)

Just one.>

The "Most Similar Batters" metric is flawed

<8. Do the numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?>

Not sure about this test either

<10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

If someone knows a better center fielder, tell me, because I don't know one.>

If Dawson counts. Then it's just Van Haltren, Jimmy Wynn and Jimmy Ryan.

<12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many games get in?

He played in seven All-Star games, all of those seasons were All-Star caliber. I believe many people have played in seven ASGs but aren't in the Hall.>

I'm surprised it'd be that many

<13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?>

Another bad question. It depends entirely on what the rest of the team is like. But if he's a 2-time MVP, I don't see why not

<14. What impact did the palyer have on baseball history? We he responsible for any rule changes? did he introduce any new equipment? did he change the game in any way?>

This applies to so few people it's ridiculous

<15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?>

Like they're really worried about this. This is used as a catchall if there's a borderline player they want to deny. It didn't stop Cobb from being elected

Brooklyn

09-01-2006, 07:19 AM

He played in seven All-Star games, all of those seasons were All-Star caliber. I believe many people have played in seven ASGs but aren't in the Hall.>

I'm surprised it'd be that

Eligible for the Hall and not in with 8+ AS games. I didn't have it down to seven, but there are more than I would have thought

Bill Freehan (11)
Steve Garvey (10)
Dave Concepcion (9)
Joe Gordon (9)
Goose Gossage (9)
Elston Howard (9)
Fred Lynn (9)
Frank McCormick (9)
Ran Santo (9)
Joe Torre (9)
Walker Cooper (8)
Del Crandall (8)
Andre Dawson (8)
Gil Hodges (8)
Bob Johnson (8)
Harvey Kuenn (8)
Marty Marion (8)
Tony Olivia (98)
Lance Parrish (8)
Jim Rice (8)
Ted Simmons (8)
Verne Stephens (8)
Darryl Strawberry (8)

Captain Cold Nose

09-01-2006, 07:39 AM

Eligible for the Hall and not in with 8+ AS games. I didn't have it down to seven, but there are more than I would have thought

Bill Freehan (11)
Steve Garvey (10)
Dave Concepcion (9)
Joe Gordon (9)
Goose Gossage (9)
Elston Howard (9)
Fred Lynn (9)
Frank McCormick (9)
Ran Santo (9)
Joe Torre (9)
Walker Cooper (8)
Del Crandall (8)
Andre Dawson (8)
Gil Hodges (8)
Bob Johnson (8)
Harvey Kuenn (8)
Marty Marion (8)
Tony Olivia (98)
Lance Parrish (8)
Jim Rice (8)
Ted Simmons (8)
Verne Stephens (8)
Darryl Strawberry (8)
Gossage and Dawson are the only ones on that list that have a chance to get voted in, with Gossage being highly likely. Torre should get in as a manager. That's my opinion on how the elctions will turn out, not whether or not I feel they should get in.

Biggtone23

09-01-2006, 09:02 AM

question about the All-Star game list. Is that including the players who appeared in both games when they had 2 games in the late 50s-early 60s. Because that would kind of skew things.

Brooklyn

09-01-2006, 09:26 AM

question about the All-Star game list. Is that including the players who appeared in both games when they had 2 games in the late 50s-early 60s. Because that would kind of skew things.

No. it only counts one per season. Of course there were more opportunities to make the all-star team between 1959 and 1962 due to 2 a year, but whether you made one team or both, it counts once.

It also counts any time you were selected, whether or not you actually played

GiambiJuice

09-01-2006, 09:33 AM

I was very surprised to see that Tony Oliva made 98 All-Star teams :eek:

Brooklyn

09-01-2006, 09:38 AM

I was very surprised to see that Tony Oliva made 98 All-Star teams :eek:

and all consecutively:ughh

RuthMayBond

09-01-2006, 09:48 AM

I was very surprised to see that Tony Oliva made 98 All-Star teams :eek:Wow, I knew the guy was OLD, but ...

KCGHOST

09-01-2006, 10:13 AM

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

If someone knows a better center fielder, tell me, because I don't know one.

Gee Whiz, Pete Browning, George Gore, Jim Edmonds, George Van Haltren, Jimmy Ryan, Paul Hines, Bernie Williams, Fred Lynn, Jimmy Wynn, Wally Berger, etc.

RuthMayBond

09-01-2006, 10:39 AM

Gee Whiz, Pete Browning, George Gore, Jim Edmonds, George Van Haltren, Jimmy Ryan, Paul Hines, Bernie Williams, Fred Lynn, Jimmy Wynn, Wally Berger, etc.I don't think Bernie Williams or Jim Edmonds are eligible. And for the other guys, don't forget to consider longevity as well as rates

dgarza

09-01-2006, 12:18 PM

Dale Murphy

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

If someone knows a better center fielder, tell me, because I don't know one.

Well, just looking at "recent" players, that is players from the last 100 years, there are only 2 other CFers that I can rank as high or higher than Dale Murphy. One of them is Andre Dawson, who you can choose to be a CFer or not. I have him ranked higher than Murphy. The other player, who I have as about equal with Murphy, is Al Oliver.

538280

09-01-2006, 03:22 PM

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

If someone knows a better center fielder, tell me, because I don't know one.

Jimmy Wynn. Wynn's career was about the same legnth as Muirphy, and at least IMO he was clearly superior as a player. Let's just start with the OPS+, where Wynn is ahead 129 to 121. Eight points is a pretty significant margin, but certainly not insurmountable for Murphy. But I don't see where Murphy picks up the other slack. You've got the difference in their peak seasons (Wynn beats Murphy handily in peak OPS+), and baserunning. Murphy may have been a better fielder, with his GGs (though statistical metrics sure don't show it. Overall I have a hard time seeing how you could put Murphy ahead of Wynn, unless you put a ton of stock in MVP voting, which I certainly don't.

Another thing on Wynn. The picture that seems to have been painted of him by many people on this webstie is completely inaccurate. Many don't understand what Wynn brought to a ballgame. Wynn was a fast runner, a very good fielder who brought true excitement to the game with his SBs, titanic HRs (he really could kill the ball, especially for a little guy. Hit the furthest HR in the history of Crosley Field), and cannon for an arm (that and his HRs is why they called him the "Toy Cannon"). Jimmy Wynn was an electrifying player who brought excitment to the game and brought the Astros franchise into respectability. He was nothing at all like Dave Kingman. There's no resemblacne there. If I had to pick a comp for Wynn, I'd pick Bobby Bonds or Darryl Strawberry. Guys who had big power but also got on base a lot with walks and were electrifying with speed, defense, throwing arms, and great exciting presence they brought to ballgame despite having a low BA. Comparing Jimmy Wynn to Dave Kingman (or even Adam Dunn) is a completely ludicrous comparison.

538280

09-01-2006, 04:54 PM

Good Thread BTW though. I'll do it for Jimmy Wynn.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No, Wynn was never the best in baseball. Even I would not argue that.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He was the best on his team for his whole career, almost unquestionably, except for a few years at the end of his Astros tenure, when Cesar Cedeno was in his prime, and his decline phase. Morgan challenged him a bit with an awesome season in 1965, but I'd say he was still the best.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

After Willie Mays, I would say Wynn became the dominant CFer in the National League. Other star CFers in Wynn's prime include Vada Pinson, Willie Davis, Matty Alou, Curt Flood, and the old Willie Mays. The only one I could see any case for would be Pinson, but that would rely on false premises. The things Pinson did, slapping singles and hitting for moderate power, just do not put as many runs on the scoreboard as the things Wynn did. Top OPS+ seasons:

Wynn: 167, 157, 151, 146, 143
Pinson: 142, 131, 129, 127, 118

Pinson's best season was not as good as Wynn's 5th best, and Pinson had all of two seasons higher than Wynn's career average. The only thing Pinson has is longevity, but that's a lot of empty longevity Pinson has on the end of his career. Don't get caught up in counting stats that really have very little to do with a player's value on the field.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Wynn only had real impact on one race, the 1974 race. Wynn was picked up by the Dodgers that year from the Astros in a trade for Claude Osteen. The Astros thought Wynn was done, after a somewhat subpar 1973 season. Wynn proved them wrong, with a great season with the Dodgers which earned him Comeback Player of the Year Award, and the Dodgers overcame the Reds, who next season would blossom into one of the best teams of all time. They probably would not have won that season without Wynn.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

I would not consider Wynn the best player outside the HOF. That would be Dick Allen IMO, though Wynn may be in my top 10.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Tough question, as it is hard to tell exactly where Wynn's numbers would be if we put them in context. Similarity scores, in this case, are of course completely unfair because of the environment Wynn played in (and reallly should not be used at all for anything IMO).

8. Do his numbers meet HOF Standards?

Again, it is hard to really tell, because HOF Standards also use raw numbers, and really shouldn't be used at all either IMO.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that hte player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Probably not. It's hard to give that much credit outside the stats for a guy who played for horrible teams most of his career. Wynn was known as a very exciting player and good in the clubhouse, so he's certianly not worse than his stats would indicate.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

I would be inclined to say "yes", but there are other people with cases.

11. How many MVP-type season did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Wynn was only a factor in the MVP voting one year in his career 1974, meaning that he did not do especially well in the MVP vote. However, I think the fact he did well the one year when he finally got out of Houston and played for a contender is telling, especially considering his 1974 was much better than many of his other seasons.

As far as MVP type seasons, to me he had many. A season of 30+ Win Shares is considered an MVP type season. Wynn had four (1965, 1968, 1969, 1974), his best being 1969 when he had 36. He also was very close in 1967, 1970, and 1972, getting 27 or more in each of those seasons.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many games get in?

Wynn made three All Star Games (1967, 1974, 1975). I think it is safe to say that most guys who made three All Star Games are not in the HOF. This is not a point in his favor, though I'm not so big on All Star Games as a criteria anyway.

20 or more Win Shares is an all star type season. According to WS, Wynn had 8 such seasons (1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1975).

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

Despite the ridiculous choice of Steve Garvey as MVP, I am confident Wynn was the best player on the '74 Dodgers, meaning that a team with Wynn as the best did indeed win. I don't have a hard time believeing that either, certainly Wynn was good enough that he could lead a team to the pennant.

14. What impact did the palyer have on baseball history? We he responsible for any rule changes? did he introduce any new equipment? did he change the game in any way?

No, Wynn did not really change the game. He deserves no extra credit in that area.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Certainly he did. He was a good teammate and popular with the fans. The only real bad incident he was involved with in his career, was after the 1970 season, in the offseason leading up to 1971, he was stabbed by his wife when celebrating his anniversary (like Bill James says-apparently not too happily). Today he is the treasurer of the MLB Player's Allumni Association, and a year ago received a commendation for his great career in the game from the Texax government legislature.

Fuzzy Bear

09-01-2006, 06:04 PM

Gee Whiz, Pete Browning, George Gore, Jim Edmonds, George Van Haltren, Jimmy Ryan, Paul Hines, Bernie Williams, Fred Lynn, Jimmy Wynn, Wally Berger, etc.

I don't see any of those guys as clearly superior to Murphy; in fact, most of them are inferior to Murph.

One of the ironies of the Keltner List and Dale Murphy is that when Bill James wrote the article about it in 1985, he said something like: "If you go down the list for Mantle, Mays, Schmidt, or Dale Murphy, you'll find that most of the answers are positive." He didn't use Murphy as his example when he revised the Keltner List slightly in The Politics of Glory.

Fuzzy Bear

09-01-2006, 06:38 PM

Good Thread BTW though. I'll do it for Jimmy Wynn.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He was the best on his team for his whole career, almost unquestionably, except for a few years at the end of his Astros tenure, when Cesar Cedeno was in his prime, and his decline phase. Morgan challenged him a bit with an awesome season in 1965, but I'd say he was still the best.

That Wynn was the best player on his team is not entirely clear. I would argue that Rusty Staub was superior in 1967; his season was actually MVP-worthy. I'm not convinced that Staub's 1967 season was below Wynn's, either. Staub's .291 average, in the Astrodome in 1968, was truly outstanding; it was 9th in the league. Staub may have won the batting title playing in Wrigley or Atlanta Stadium. Of course, Wynn was penalized by the Dome as well, and gets extra points for CF defense.

Staub had slightly over 2,700 hits. I have little doubt but that if Staub had played in a different era, and in neutral parks, he would have hat 3,000 hits easily, and would be in the HOF today. I'm not advocating his candidacy, but I believe my statement is true.

RuthMayBond

09-01-2006, 09:09 PM

SamtheBravesFan

09-01-2006, 11:00 PM

Thanks for the complement, 538280 :)

Add 1980 to the list of best player on his team. Bob Horner wasn't better. I thought he was. Horner was better in 1981.

The reason why I said 1982-1986 is because Murphy became a right fielder in 1987. Even then, I would say that he was better than Andre Dawson head-to-head. Then again, there was Darryl Strawberry... oh well.

Fuzzy Bear

09-02-2006, 08:04 AM

Just for fun, do the Keltner Test for your favorite bubble or surefire candidate for the Hall of Fame!

Dale Murphy

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

He couldn't do it alone. Usually, he had to. So I would say no.

Actually, Murphy does quite well on this question. He was MVP in 1982, and the Braves made an unlikely jump to 1st place. They also contended in 1983.

After 1984, the Braves team stunk royally. Niekro grew old, the pitching generally stunk, and a lot of guys that had their best years in 82 and 83 went to seed. (Bruce Benedict and Chris Chambliss come to mind.) Murphy had perhaps his best year ever in 1987, and the Braves still finished last.

SamtheBravesFan

09-02-2006, 09:23 AM

Actually, Murphy does quite well on this question. He was MVP in 1982, and the Braves made an unlikely jump to 1st place. They also contended in 1983.

After 1984, the Braves team stunk royally. Niekro grew old, the pitching generally stunk, and a lot of guys that had their best years in 82 and 83 went to seed. (Bruce Benedict and Chris Chambliss come to mind.) Murphy had perhaps his best year ever in 1987, and the Braves still finished last.

True, the pitching did stink. But Niekro was gone from the Braves in 1984. He won 16 games for the Yankees, despite having an ERA+ of 98.

That's true about Chambliss and Benedict, but Benedict was never really that much of an offensive threat anyway.

And in 1987, the Braves didn't finish in last. They finished 4 1/2 games ahead of the Padres.

Sliding Billy

09-02-2006, 10:20 AM

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

He couldn't do it alone. Usually, he had to. So I would say no.

I interpret the question as a hypothetical one, not "Did Dale Murphy's team ever win the pennant when he was the best player?" That's covered by earlier questions. Rather, "Would a team--any team--be likely to win a pennant if no player on it was better than Dale Murphy?"

In other words, "Does this player's record look like the record of the best player on a pennant-winner?" I think it's a low-level qualifier, meant to give points to players that somehow slip through the cracks in some of the earlier questions. For example, Ralph Kiner was never going to win an MVP on the Pirates. Obviously it's a less stringent criterion than the MVP question. So certainly--as I understand the question--Murphy gets a "yes," for what it's worth.

538280

09-02-2006, 01:34 PM

If this is his whole career almost unquestionably ...

That's about half of his career, and most of the times he wasn't it was because of injuries and missed games. The question "Was he the best on his team?". Should absolutely be a yes, as a rule over his career he was the best on his team very often.

Fuzzy Bear

09-02-2006, 10:16 PM

True, the pitching did stink. But Niekro was gone from the Braves in 1984. He won 16 games for the Yankees, despite having an ERA+ of 98.

That's true about Chambliss and Benedict, but Benedict was never really that much of an offensive threat anyway.

And in 1987, the Braves didn't finish in last. They finished 4 1/2 games ahead of the Padres.

I thought Niekro left later; shoulda checked!

Benedict was an average catcher at his best, never a superstar, but he filled the position. After a few years, he sunk from adequate to below replacement level.

Sliding Billy

09-03-2006, 01:43 AM

<14. What impact did the palyer have on baseball history? We he responsible for any rule changes? did he introduce any new equipment? did he change the game in any way?>

This applies to so few people it's ridiculous

<15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?>

Like they're really worried about this. This is used as a catchall if there's a borderline player they want to deny. It didn't stop Cobb from being elected
James dashed off the Keltner list at a time when he was trying to pin down the Hall of Fame's self-defining processes. #14 accounts for the presence of people like Tommy McCarthy and Candy Cummings. #15 accounts for the absence of, say, Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte.

What borderline players do you have in mind who were turned down on grounds of sportsmanship and character? I think the character issue was invoked to delay the selection of Fergie Jenkins and Orlando Cepeda, and some say that Jim Rice's inability to get along with sportswriters hurt his chances--but that's hardly a character flaw.

RuthMayBond

09-03-2006, 05:13 AM

James dashed off the Keltner list at a time when he was trying to pin down the Hall of Fame's self-defining processes.I'm not sure there's a process

<What borderline players do you have in mind who were turned down on grounds of sportsmanship and character?>

Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez, might use it on Kevin Brown & Tim Raines. Might be using it on Jack Clark/Dave Parker, not sure if they're Hall worthy. They'll likely use it on guys with unproven allegations like McGwire, Bonds ....

Sliding Billy

09-03-2006, 07:56 AM

I'm not sure there's a process

<What borderline players do you have in mind who were turned down on grounds of sportsmanship and character?>

Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez, might use it on Kevin Brown & Tim Raines. Might be using it on Jack Clark/Dave Parker, not sure if they're Hall worthy. They'll likely use it on guys with unproven allegations like McGwire, Bonds ....
I agree there's no single process, and that is why the Keltner list and especially the HOF standards are so awkwardly eclectic--because they've been retrofitted to inconsistent selection methods. I think congeniality and lack of it play a large role, but, perhaps naively, don't consider it a standard of character. I think you are right about McGwire &co. Perhaps #15 could be restated as

15a "Did the player reputedly use drugs on the following list . . . . ?"
15b "Was the player an obnoxious SOB?"

RuthMayBond

09-03-2006, 10:35 AM

15b "Was the player an obnoxious SOB?"Then you have to explain Cobb, Hornsby, Ted Williams ...

Sliding Billy

09-03-2006, 10:50 AM

Then you have to explain Cobb, Hornsby, Ted Williams ...
Well, it's not a voiding condition, just a handy one.

Fuzzy Bear

09-05-2006, 04:05 AM

I agree there's no single process, and that is why the Keltner list and especially the HOF standards are so awkwardly eclectic--because they've been retrofitted to inconsistent selection methods. I think congeniality and lack of it play a large role, but, perhaps naively, don't consider it a standard of character. I think you are right about McGwire &co. Perhaps #15 could be restated as

15a "Did the player reputedly use drugs on the following list . . . . ?"
15b "Was the player an obnoxious SOB?"

The HOF would be a lonely place if alcohol abusers were excluded. :D

Sliding Billy

09-05-2006, 04:14 AM

The HOF would be a lonely place if alcohol abusers were excluded. :D
Right. Alcohol and amphetamines would obviously not be on "the following list."