Shortstop question

[micsmith]

Is Omar Vizquel one of the top ten shortstops of the past fifty years?
Or how about this: Is Omar Vizquel one of the top ten shortstops who BEGAN his career between 1950 and 2000?

I was just comparing his stats last night with Ozzie Smith and Alan Trammell and Vizquel seems at least comprable to these two. He may not be as good as Aparichio, A-Rod, or Ripken, but taking his defense into account has to put Omar into the elite shortstops of the past couple of generations. Hall of Fame material. I never really thought so, but now I'm starting to think that he just might deserve it.

[Naliamegod]

No.

Luis Aparicio
Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Ozzie Smith
Alan Trammell
Dave Concepcion
Tony Fernandez
Barry Larkin
Cal Ripken Jr
Robin Yount
Ernie Banks

[Brad Harris]

No to both questions. Nice try.

[538280]

Is Omar Vizquel one of the top ten shortstops of the past fifty years?
Or how about this: Is Omar Vizquel one of the top ten shortstops who BEGAN his career between 1950 and 2000?

I was just comparing his stats last night with Ozzie Smith and Alan Trammell and Vizquel seems at least comprable to these two. He may not be as good as Aparichio, A-Rod, or Ripken, but taking his defense into account has to put Omar into the elite shortstops of the past couple of generations. Hall of Fame material. I never really thought so, but now I'm starting to think that he just might deserve it.

Vizquel may be a similar HITTER to Ozzie. However, this is misleading of their offensive value. Ozzie was one of the best basestealers of all time. This can lift him to a new offensive level. Then there's how they did offensively at their best. Smith had a very respectable OBP in the mid part of his career, and was actually a very good offensive player then. Vizquel did not do this. And though Vizquel was very good (I don't know about quite all time great) with the glove, he was no Ozzie Smith.

Vizquel was just not the hitter Trammell was, plain and simple. Vizquel's career high OPS+, 111, was just about the same as Trammell's over his career, 110. That one season was also just about an outlier for Vizquel, he never came within 11 points of it, his next best being 100. Not even close.

Vizquel was a good player, but

[Pine Tar]

Vizquel may be a similar HITTER to Ozzie. However, this is misleading of their offensive value. Ozzie was one of the best basestealers of all time. This can lift him to a new offensive level. Then there's how they did offensively at their best. Smith had a very respectable OBP in the mid part of his career, and was actually a very good offensive player then. Vizquel did not do this. And though Vizquel was very good (I don't know about quite all time great) with the glove, he was no Ozzie Smith.

Vizquel was just not the hitter Trammell was, plain and simple. Vizquel's career high OPS+, 111, was just about the same as Trammell's over his career, 110. That one season was also just about an outlier for Vizquel, he never came within 11 points of it, his next best being 100. Not even close.

Vizquel was a good player, but

I guess you haven't been following baseball this year since Vizquel is having his second best offensive season of his career, at age 39.

As for comparisons to Smith and Trammell, as this point both players have better careers than Vizquel, but the question of this was if Vizquel was in the tops 10, so focusing on two of the best isn't really to the point.

A more to the point argument is to compare him to DAve Concepcion and Luis Aparicio. After this year, I would have to put Vizquel ahead of Concepciion and just behind Aparicio. However, another year like this year and Vizquel would move ahead of Aparicio.

As for comparisons Alex Rodriguez, Tony Fernandez, Robin Yount, and Ernie Banks I'm not so sure it fair to compare Vizquel to them. I mean Rodriguez only played 1272 games as short, Fernandez 1573, Banks 1125, and Yount 1479.
Vizquel has played in 2409 games at short. I think its safe to say that Vizquel is in the top 10 of CAREER short stops since 1950.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Omar is definitely in the list of 10 best SS after 1950.

Omar holds the record for most games played at shortstop. This, to me, clearly puts him ahead of Concepcion and Fernandez. Fernandez started out like a sure-fire HOFer, but he faded, in that he lost the ability to play shortstop. Fernandez, save for a fill-in role as Yankee SS in 1995, was not a regular shortstop after 1993.

Omar is about to pass the 2,500 career hit barrier; he'll do that next year. I cannot think of a single shortstop that was an excellent defensive player (as Vizquel clearly was/is) with 2,500 hits that is NOT in the HOF. He may well end up with 2,700, and has a shot at 3,000 (albeit a slim one).

[redban]

I don't know too much about history of shortstops.So I dunno where he ranks among the guys from the 1950',60,70,80's.

But Visquel was sick with the glove.Personally,I'd put him in the Hall.

The reason I don't see him getting in,is because of his offensive numbers.In this era,his low power numbers and career BA won't cut it.Not even his defense can outweight that with the voters.

[leecemark]

--Vizquel is a better hitter than Aparico. The difference is that offensive expectations for SS were very low in Aparicio's day. They are significantly higher now and Vizquel doesn't compare very well to the elite SS of his era.

[mtortolero]

--Vizquel is a better hitter than Aparico. The difference is that offensive expectations for SS were very low in Aparicio's day. They are significantly higher now and Vizquel doesn't compare very well to the elite SS of his era.

I like to do this exercise when Aparicio and Vizquel are matched only to rise the difference of the times when they played :
Aparicio´s best season in hits was 1966 with 182. That number served to Luis be the second best in the league just behind Tony Oliva (191) but the key thing here is that no more than 13 players hit 150 or more hits that year in the AL.
Vizquel´s best season in hits was 1999 with 191 which was the 8th better in the league behind Derek Jeter as leader with 219 and other three guys over 200 hits; and 42 players hit at least 150 hits.
In 1966 was almost four times tougher at least hit 150 hits or more than in 1999 as per the numbers of players to reach the mark in both years.
Compare raw numbers of two players from two so different eras is a distortion.

[Fuzzy Bear]

--Vizquel is a better hitter than Aparico. The difference is that offensive expectations for SS were very low in Aparicio's day. They are significantly higher now and Vizquel doesn't compare very well to the elite SS of his era.

Aparicio's stats would be better if he played in a different era.

Part of the reason Aparicio has as many hits as he has is that he batted leadoff, despite being a terrible leadoff hitter. He could steal bases, but he hacked; he rarely walked, and his BA wasn't terribly high, even for his era.

Here's an amazing stat: Aparicio, who was considered the top leadoff hitter of his time, had an OBP BELOW LEAGUE EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER EXCEPT FOR 1969 and 1970. Vizquel is one point above league for his career, which means he has been significantly above league in his better years. Aparicio is in the Hall for his defense, and he deserves to be there, but he is one of the most overrrated HOFers there is. It is hard for me to come up with reasons as to why Aparicio is superior to Vizquel, even factoring in differences for era.

[Brad Harris]

Vizquel's career high OPS+, 111, was...an outlier for Vizquel, he never came within 11 points of it, his next best being 100.

How much is defense worth? Good question. It is extremely difficult to conceive of any player who's offense was above the league average just once throughout his entire career being a great enough defensive player to justify inclusion in the Hall of Fame.

[Pine Tar]

How much is defense worth? Good question. It is extremely difficult to conceive of any player who's offense was above the league average just once throughout his entire career being a great enough defensive player to justify inclusion in the Hall of Fame.
Again,
Vizquel is having a better than leaugue average year this year so your point is totally lost. He will have done it 2 times after this year. Ozzie Smith was really only better than league average 3 times, I am not counting a 102 OPS+ as BETTER than league average. Its pretty much the same as a 100. Aparicio was only better than league average offensively once. So Vizquel is right between those two.

[overhandgas53]

if you're considering best fielding shortstops I would put Omar in there in a heartbeat, but if you're talking about the top 10 overall mine would go like this


1.Ozzie Smith
2.Luis Aparacio
3.Honus Wagner
4.Ernie Banks
5.Phil Rizzuto
6.Joe Cronin
7.Robin Yount
8.Cal Ripken, Jr.
9.Alan Tramell
10.Derek Jeter

[538280]

2.Luis Aparacio
3.Honus Wagner


I hope you're not serious.

Omar is definitely in the list of 10 best SS after 1950.

Omar holds the record for most games played at shortstop. This, to me, clearly puts him ahead of Concepcion and Fernandez. Fernandez started out like a sure-fire HOFer, but he faded, in that he lost the ability to play shortstop. Fernandez, save for a fill-in role as Yankee SS in 1995, was not a regular shortstop after 1993.

Omar is about to pass the 2,500 career hit barrier; he'll do that next year. I cannot think of a single shortstop that was an excellent defensive player (as Vizquel clearly was/is) with 2,500 hits that is NOT in the HOF. He may well end up with 2,700, and has a shot at 3,000 (albeit a slim one

I really don't get the infatuation with counting numbers. To me, at least, they have so little to do with actual value on the field. If Vizquel can get himself up to 3000 hits, I'll grudingly accept him as a HOFer then, even though by then his OPS+ may very well go below 80 (though he is hitting well this season).

If Vizquel can pack seriously more longevity into his package than he has now, I'll take him over Fernandez, until then, I'll take Tony. His hitting was just considerably better, and while Vizquel was an awesome fielder, he was the kind that looks more spectacular than he really is. Statistical metrics have confirmed this, he is definitely a player who has not lived up to his rep with such metrics. DWS has Fernandez graded higher than Vizquel (A to B-). Then you have that Fernandez is quite a bit better hitter, I would take him.