Hall of Mistakes/Corrections Recap

[Freakshow]

My two companion projects, the Hall of Mistakes and the Hall of Corrections, are now complete. The first was a series of elections to identify the bottom 15% players in the Hall of Fame (34 guys); then another series of elections to identify who should be in the HOF instead. Here are the two lists in order of election:

POS Corrections BBFHOF 1800s POS Mistakes
3B Ron Santo * 3B Fred Lindstrom
P Bert Blyleven * 1B George Kelly
1B Dick Allen * RF Tommy McCarthy
LF Minnie Minoso * P Rube Marquard
RP Rich Gossage * P Jesse Haines
LF Sherry Magee * CF Lloyd Waner
SS Bill Dahlen * x SS Travis Jackson
SS Alan Trammell * C Rick Ferrell
2B Bobby Grich * RF Ross Youngs
C Ted Simmons * P Chief Bender
2B Joe Gordon * LF Chick Hafey
LF Albert Belle * P Herb Pennock
CF Dale Murphy * CF Earle Combs
1B Keith Hernandez P Jack Chesbro
RF Andre Dawson * P Waite Hoyt
C Joe Torre * SS Joe Tinker
CF Paul Hines * x C Ray Schalk
3B Darrell Evans 3B Judy Johnson
P Wes Ferrell * 2B Red Schoendienst
C Deacon White * x 1B Jim Bottomley
C Bill Freehan * 3B George Kell
3B Stan Hack * P Vic Willis
2B Lou Whitaker RF Harry Hooper
CF Pete Browning x LF Heinie Manush
CF Jimmy Wynn SS Dave Bancroft
LF Harry Stovey * x 2B Johnny Evers
RF Dwight Evans SS Phil Rizzuto
SS John Beckwith 2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Ken Boyer P Andy Cooper
CF George Gore x RF Kiki Cuyler
SS Homerun Johnson P Catfish Hunter
RF Dave Parker * RF Sam Rice
C Charlie Bennett x RP Rollie Fingers
CF G. Van Haltren x 2B Tony Lazzeri

Seventeen of the 34 Corrections are among the 180 players in the BBFHOF. In addition, Torre was elected to the Contributors wing. None of the 34 Mistakes are in the BBFHOF.

Eight of the Corrections played primarily in the 19th century; only one of the Mistakes did. Clearly, the HOF has work to do there. (The Hall of Merit at Baseballthinkfactory.com has elected 15 19th century stars not in the Coop.)

The results show the HOF with an excess of pitchers. Ten are identified as Mistakes, with only three elected as Corrections.

Comparing the last few players on each list, it is clear to me that there is a discernable superiority for the Corrections guys. For instance, outfielders Parker and Van Haltren impress me much more than HOFers Lazzeri and S. Rice. IMO, you need to get beyond 20% (45 players) before the players in the Hall begin to match the quality of those not in the Hall.

Here are 25-man teams constructed by starting at the top of each list and swapping players at the same position. (I diverted from this plan at the end, swapping four Mistake Pitcher for four Correction position players.)

3B Ron Santo 1 3B Fred Lindstrom
1B Dick Allen 2 1B George Kelly
P Bert Blyleven 3 P Rube Marquard
LF Minnie Minoso 4 LF Chick Hafey
RP Rich Gossage 5 RP Rollie Fingers
SS Bill Dahlen 6 SS Travis Jackson
CF Dale Murphy 7 CF Lloyd Waner
C Ted Simmons 8 C Rick Ferrell
RF Andre Dawson 9 RF Tommy McCarthy
2B Joe Gordon 10 2B Red Schoendienst
P Wes Ferrell 11 P Jesse Haines
SS Alan Trammell 12 SS Joe Tinker
CF Paul Hines 13 CF Earle Combs
C Joe Torre 14 C Ray Schalk
3B Darrell Evans 15 3B Judy Johnson
1B Keith Hernandez 16 1B Jim Bottomley
3B Stan Hack 17 3B George Kell
LF Sherry Magee 18 LF Heinie Manush
2B Bobby Grich 19 2B Johnny Evers
RF Dwight Evans 20 RF Ross Youngs
SS John Beckwith 21 SS Phil Rizzuto
LF Albert Belle 22 P Chief Bender
C Deacon White 23 P Herb Pennock
C Bill Freehan 24 P Jack Chesbro
2B Lou Whitaker 25 P Waite Hoyt

Quite a mismatch.

[mtortolero]

John Beckwith as SS? He was a 3B and by the 3B standards i don`t think he was better than Bob Elliott.

[milladrive]

John Beckwith as SS? He was a 3B and by the 3B standards i don`t think he was better than Bob Elliott.

Actually, Beckwith played more games at SS than at 3B. Not by much, but it was for sure his most played position.

[rsuriyop]

Interesting project you've got there. You know, I'd actually support most of the HOF "corrections" listed above. But it's too bad some of the other ones I feel are Hall-worthy didn't make it (i.e. Larry Doyle, Tony Oliva, Bob Johnson, Reggie Smith). Still, nice job. :o

[philliesfiend55]

To Freakshow:
I'm a new member to the Fever and I think your 34 choices to the Hall Of Mistakes is one of the most interesting features of this website. I see however that it was done in August 2006. Are there any plans to have further elecions on a yearly or some other basis? This is a topic most fans have their opinions on and it would be fun to have others give their input into this discussion. Rather than cast in stone lists of corrections and mistakes, to prevent stagnancy, there should be further discussions and new elections for active players who will be retiring soon in the coming years.
Although I disagree with some of the selections (ie: Sam Rice) I think the Hall Of Mistakes/Corrections was an original idea that was well executed.
-philliesfiend55-

[iPod]

Sam Rice is, as I see it, a borderline guy. I don't know if I'd support him for the Hall if he was outside it, but I agree, I think it's a little misleading to put him on a list of "mistakes" with guys like Travis Jackson.

[Baseball Guru]

Interesting list as I missed it the 1st time around..

I agree with most of the mistakes but I would question Sam Rice..

What is your opinion on the omission of Bob Caruthers?

[philliesfiend55]

Since I received no response to my question in #5 of this thread nearly six months ago (way back on 7/1/07) I'm assuming that no further changes or additions are planned to the Hall Of Mistakes. It would be a good idea, however, if this topic was to be reviewed periodically on an annual basis or at least once every two years. If the Veterans Committee's function is to review every two years which players have been mistakenly left out of the Hall Of Fame, shouldn't the Hall Of Mistakes convene at least as frequently as the Veterans Committee to decide which players were mistakenly put in the Hall. (and who their proper replacements (if any) should be). - philliesfiend55.

[Freakshow]

Since I received no response to my question in #5 of this thread nearly six months ago (way back on 7/1/07) I'm assuming that no further changes or additions are planned to the Hall Of Mistakes. It would be a good idea, however, if this topic was to be reviewed periodically on an annual basis or at least once every two years. If the Veterans Committee's function is to review every two years which players have been mistakenly left out of the Hall Of Fame, shouldn't the Hall Of Mistakes convene at least as frequently as the Veterans Committee to decide which players were mistakenly put in the Hall. (and who their proper replacements (if any) should be). - philliesfiend55.
I suppose I may try to rerun this project in the future. Usually, I'm looking for different approaches to the issues.

The "Corrections" side is being handled at present with a much more comprehensive approach in The Ultimate Quest for Candidates. I hope you're participating in those elections.

The "Mistakes" side has been approached many times in different ways at BBF. I'm considering a rerun of "The 500 Player Pyramid" (except making it only 300 this time). That will leave all the mistakes on the outside.

For another take on this issue, check out The Hall of Merit (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/ranking_the_hall_of_merit_players/). They came up with 58 players they like better than 58 hall of famers.

[Paul Wendt]

The first dozen mistakes may be entirely uncontroversial but not two dozen. Then Dave Bancroft the 25th-worst player in the HOF?! BTW it looks like the 25-man roster gives Bancroft a pass by replacing Rizzuto instead.

[Rube Waddell]

Very interesting project you got there!

From your mistakes list, I feel that Heinie Manush, Sam Rice and Rollie Fingers had the strongest case for enrishment. I don't consider them mistakes. Some players we both consider mistakes got elected because they happened to play for strong Yankees teams. Ray Schalk got in there because he was clean...

Your correction list is far more interesting. I agree with Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, Bobby Grich, Paul Hines, Pete Browning, Dwight Evans and George Van Haltren.

However, I strongly disagree with Andre Dawson. Dawson hit poorly when he got in the playoffs, had a tendency to play big games when his team won 13-1. I know, I saw him play over 10 years in Montréal. He got his MVP on a last place team (the 1987 Cubs), where he could hit without pressure playing for a team 35 games out of the race by August 1. IMO, Dawson was one of the worst hitter in history when you really needed a hit.

[Freakshow]

The Hall of Mistakes, Election #13 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=37872)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #14 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38084)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #15 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38324)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #16 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38579)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #17 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38858)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #18 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=39070)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #19 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=39349)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #20 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=39572)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #21 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=39857)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #22 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40117)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #23 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40385)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #24 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40673)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #25 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40946)
The Hall of Mistakes, Election #26 (final) (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41234)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #1 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41581)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #2 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41797)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #3 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=42122)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #4 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=42557)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #5 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=42878)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #6 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=43152)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #7 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=43539)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #8 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=43871)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #9 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=44353)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #10 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=44730)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #11 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=45384)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #12 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=46017)
The Hall of Corrections, Election #13 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=47184)